Politics Thread

[paulxu]

He hasn't "fixed" anything:

Trump's Ploy

The President says he’s signing an executive order to end family separations. The actual aim seems to be to pick a fight with the courts and allow separations to continue while blaming judges. According to The New York Times, the President will sign an executive order allowing children to be detained indefinitely with their parents. The problem is that that violates a 1997 consent decree saying that you can’t detain/imprison children for more than 20 days (technically what’s currently happening isn’t detention). It straight up violates that order. So what will almost inevitably happen is that a court will step in, say you can’t do that and then Trump will announce that the judge is forcing him to keep separating families.

[noteggs]

That’s one word you could use to describe him. I think weak, greedy, narcissistic, megalomaniac fits better. But that’s just me. The only reason he flip-flopped is that it wasn’t polling well on either side. Now he’s going to take credit for “fixing the problem.”

I agree with narcissistic. Almost all presidents share this trait (Except for probably Carter and maybe W - he was just in the family business). It shouldn’t poll well on either side because they’ve had two decades to clean this mess. As I’ve told the numerous kids I’ve coached and volunteered with, who cares who gets the credit as long as you do the right thing!

[GenerationX]

I have only seen this poll but I don't know if you're right on that: https://twitter.com/kerpen/status/1009521625472040960

And he's done a lot more to fix the problem than anyone else at this point. You may question his motives or question his views in relation to yours, but if this has been going on since 2014/2015 (at least), who else has addressed it until now?

That poll relates to family detention vs. catch and release... nothing about separating children from parents unless I missed it.

Obama’s policies evolved over time, and some think even he went too far. He wasn't known as the deporter in chief for nothing. If you’re strictly referring to separating children from parents, please see my post above. I disagree with his administration’s policy to detain children, but again, my understanding is that the policies evolved to try to ensure the safety of the children, etc. Here’s an article that fact-checks the equivalence between the two administrations:

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/im...milies-n884856

And here’s a pertinent excerpt:
“The idea that this is simply a continuation of an Obama-era practice is "preposterous," said Denise Gilman, director of the Immigration Clinic at the University of Texas Law School. "There were occasionally instances where you would find a separated family — maybe like one every six months to a year — and that was usually because there had been some actual individualized concern that there was a trafficking situation or that the parent wasn’t actually the parent."

Once custody concerns were resolved, "there was pretty immediately reunification," Gilman told NBC News. "There were not 2,000 kids in two months — it’s not the same universe," she added.

The Trump administration separated 1,995 children from 1,940 adults from April 19 to May 31, a spokesman for the Department of Homeland Security said Friday, a period in which the "zero tolerance" policy was in effect.”


And yes, I most definitely question trump’s motives.

[Caf]

Holy cow, in this toxic political environment all anyone cares about is relativism.

I said holding minors without charging them is wrong. I said it's wrong now and it was wrong under Obama. What the hell is outrageous about that opinion? You can't justify human rights violations with worse human rights violations.

[GenerationX]

I agree with narcissistic. Almost all presidents share this trait (Except for probably Carter and maybe W - he was just in the family business). It shouldn’t poll well on either side because they’ve had two decades to clean this mess. As I’ve told the numerous kids I’ve coached and volunteered with, who cares who gets the credit as long as you do the right thing!

Looks like you prefer to cherry pick your lessons to the kids. Who cares if other presidents have shared that trait? That doesn’t make it okay.

Are you saying you agree with the policy to separate children from their parents as long as it “cleans up the mess”? (Whatever that means.) So “the end justifies the means “?

Remind me not to hire you to coach my kids lol.

[GenerationX]

Holy cow, in this toxic political environment all anyone cares about is relativism.

I said holding minors without charging them is wrong. I said it's wrong now and it was wrong under Obama. What the hell is outrageous about that opinion? You can't justify human rights violations with worse human rights violations.

I don’t disagree with that opinion, but I don’t understand why you disagree with people being more outraged at what’s going on now. Obama’s administration detained minors who helped people enter the country illegally. Trump’s is simply separating the children from parents and eventually putting them in foster care, etc. The parents don’t know where their children are and vice versa. I mean these are apples and oranges situations.

I’ll speak for myself in saying the only reason I replied to you is that you seemed perplexed why there is such an uproar now but not then. I mean really, what Obama’s administration did was arguable. I suspect the point was to deter the children from doing it again (helping people enter illegally.) Or in the case of family separation, to ensure the safety of the children. Again, I agree holding anyone, especially children, that they had no intention to charge is a human rights violation. But that’s not at all what’s going on now. I personally think it’s all a political game to try to get his horrible “reforms” passed.

Not only that, trump has put a spotlight on himself, so more people are aware of these things... the outrage is much more widespread. That’s probably the main positive thing I’ve witnessed since he was elected... people have become more engaged.

[bjf123]

As I’ve told the numerous kids I’ve coached and volunteered with, who cares who gets the credit as long as you do the right thing!

Sadly, in today’s political environment, the credit is all that matters. Personally, I don’t think the Democrats really want to fix this issue or DACA. It’s in their political best interest for the issue to be used to embarrass Trump and the Republicans, which helps them pick up seats in the mid term elections. If they gain control of one or both houses of Congress, they’ll pass some legislation they know Trump will never sign so they can continue the process.

It’s the same thing with taxing the rich, however you define rich. It gives the Democrats a great sound bite to say they’re not paying their fair share, whatever that is. Did the Democrats raise taxes when they had the chance? Nope. It was in their political best interest to leave it as a campaign issue.


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[GenerationX]

Sadly, in today’s political environment, the credit is all that matters. Personally, I don’t think the Democrats really want to fix this issue or DACA. It’s in their political best interest for the issue to be used to embarrass Trump and the Republicans, which helps them pick up seats in the mid term elections. If they gain control of one or both houses of Congress, they’ll pass some legislation they know Trump will never sign so they can continue the process.

It’s the same thing with taxing the rich, however you define rich. It gives the Democrats a great sound bite to say they’re not paying their fair share, whatever that is. Did the Democrats raise taxes when they had the chance? Nope. It was in their political best interest to leave it as a campaign issue.


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This I agree with 100% The politicians from both parties suck pretty equally in the same way.

[noteggs]

Looks like you prefer to cherry pick your lessons to the kids. Who cares if other presidents have shared that trait? That doesn’t make it okay.

Are you saying you agree with the policy to separate children from their parents as long as it “cleans up the mess”? (Whatever that means.) So “the end justifies the means “?

Remind me not to hire you to coach my kids lol.

Cherry pick? Just trying to give kids a little humility lesson from what I learned from X...doesn’t matter who gets the credit for a good play, correcting an injustice, or a good deed, just keep doing the right things.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, I think what’s going on with these kids is completely wrong. Unfortunately, this is a result of a 1997 case brought to the court of appeals. Both sides had 21 years to understand the ramifications and correct it.

However, if you sweet talk me, I’ll be willing to come out of coaching retirement

[bobbiemcgee]

It’s the same thing with taxing the rich, however you define rich. It gives the Democrats a great sound bite to say they’re not paying their fair share, whatever that is. Did the Democrats raise taxes when they had the chance? Nope. It was in their political best interest to leave it as a campaign issue.

Nobody's going to propose raising taxes. You saw how that went with Bush I's "Read my lips, no new taxes" remark. No budget surplus since Clinton's 1998-2001. Bush II couldn't stand for that, so he had a massive tax cut that put the deficit into a tailspin along with his stupid ass wars. I remember laughing when I got a check in the mail. What a Bozo. So now the OMB sez we will have trillion dollar plus yearly deficits. Pubs suddenly love deficits. They came up with some hocus-pocus BS rationale that only made sense to them. Meanwhile, interest rates going up on this massive debt. Congress has already stolen 3 trillion from the SS retirement funds, so where are they going to get the money now? Yep, they will have to borrow it thru Treasury bills that no one will want, not even the Chinese.
And hey Trump - who is going to pay your Tariiffs (taxes). Americans, that who.