Politics Thread

[bjf123]

You’re making my point. If you’re correct, and no one is going to propose raising taxes, can we assume the Democrats will stop with their continual harping on how the rich aren’t paying their fair share? The only way to change that is to raise their taxes.


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[Caf]

I don’t disagree with that opinion, but I don’t understand why you disagree with people being more outraged at what’s going on now. Obama’s administration detained minors who helped people enter the country illegally. Trump’s is simply separating the children from parents and eventually putting them in foster care, etc. The parents don’t know where their children are and vice versa. I mean these are apples and oranges situations.

I’ll speak for myself in saying the only reason I replied to you is that you seemed perplexed why there is such an uproar now but not then. I mean really, what Obama’s administration did was arguable. I suspect the point was to deter the children from doing it again (helping people enter illegally.) Or in the case of family separation, to ensure the safety of the children. Again, I agree holding anyone, especially children, that they had no intention to charge is a human rights violation. But that’s not at all what’s going on now. I personally think it’s all a political game to try to get his horrible “reforms” passed.

Not only that, trump has put a spotlight on himself, so more people are aware of these things... the outrage is much more widespread. That’s probably the main positive thing I’ve witnessed since he was elected... people have become more engaged.

I understand why the outrage is greater now. What I don't understand is how people don't see how today is connected to Obama and every member of government before.

It's hypocritical to not have been upset about Obama's practices because they were an indication of gray areas where our laws were lacking and how they could be exploited to infringe on civil liberties. What allowed the Obama administration to get away with detaining guides is exactly what the Trump administration used to get away with child separation.

I keep going back to "detaining minors without charging them" because that is the basic law and right we extend to citizens and not migrants which has allowed this to happen. There is no law that the government has to keep kids with parents who are being arrested, citizen or not. There never will be. There is a law that says anyone arrested has a right to due process. It was in the Magna Carta for Christ's sake. It's an enormous flaw and contradiction to our basic values which Obama, Trump, and others before have not addressed and instead exploited. If you think the outrage here is that Trump did this, and not that Trump was able to legally do this, you're not seeing the forest from the trees. In 2018, in the United States, it's perfectly legal for the government to arrest a migrant parent and detain their children in a shelter. It's also perfectly legal to hold migrant teenagers accused of wrongdoing without proving wrongdoing in a court for extended periods of time. It's the same basic liberty being violated whether it's a happy family fleeing oppression or a teen trying to break the law.

I think people forget what Congress' function is since it's been a cesspool for 20 years forcing Presidents and the Courts to have to overstep their authority to keep this country functioning. Now we have a Frankenstein solution where kids will be detained with their parents. Oh happy day... From one band aid executive action to the next this country limps on.

[GenerationX]

I understand why the outrage is greater now. What I don't understand is how people don't see how today is connected to Obama and every member of government before.

It's hypocritical to not have been upset about Obama's practices because they were an indication of gray areas where our laws were lacking and how they could be exploited to infringe on civil liberties. What allowed the Obama administration to get away with detaining guides is exactly what the Trump administration used to get away with child separation.

I keep going back to "detaining minors without charging them" because that is the basic law and right we extend to citizens and not migrants which has allowed this to happen. There is no law that the government has to keep kids with parents who are being arrested, citizen or not. There never will be. There is a law that says anyone arrested has a right to due process. It was in the Magna Carta for Christ's sake. It's an enormous flaw and contradiction to our basic values which Obama, Trump, and others before have not addressed and instead exploited. If you think the outrage here is that Trump did this, and not that Trump was able to legally do this, you're not seeing the forest from the trees. In 2018, in the United States, it's perfectly legal for the government to arrest a migrant parent and detain their children in a shelter. It's also perfectly legal to hold migrant teenagers accused of wrongdoing without proving wrongdoing in a court for extended periods of time. It's the same basic liberty being violated whether it's a happy family fleeing oppression or a teen trying to break the law.

I think people forget what Congress' function is since it's been a cesspool for 20 years forcing Presidents and the Courts to have to overstep their authority to keep this country functioning. Now we have a Frankenstein solution where kids will be detained with their parents. Oh happy day... From one band aid executive action to the next this country limps on.

Thank you for clarifying. I agree with everything you’ve stated. The action itself is appalling, but the fact that it could be done perfectly legally should be the focus. I’m skeptical anything will change, at least not any time soon, for the reason you’ve stated... Congress is a cesspool and completely ineffective.

[waggy]

I think we should pull Ol' Sparky of retirement. Fry a few up and all this nonsense would stop.

[STL_XUfan]

I think we should pull Ol' Sparky of retirement. Fry a few up and all this nonsense would stop.

Did you just suggest summarily executing people in a cruel way to send a message about your desire not to have them in your country?

[paulxu]

Did you just suggest summarily executing people in a cruel way to send a message about your desire not to have them in your country?

Sure. Why not?

Meanwhile, as the border crisis spirals, the absence of a coordinated policy process has allowed the most extreme administration voices to fill the vacuum. White House senior policy adviser Stephen Miller has all but become the face of the issue, a development that even supporters of Trump’s “zero-tolerance” position say is damaging the White House. “Stephen actually enjoys seeing those pictures at the border,” an outside White House adviser said. “He’s a twisted guy, the way he was raised and picked on. There’s always been a way he’s gone about this. He’s Waffen-SS.”

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018...on-white-house

[Caf]

A longstanding federal-court settlement—known as the Flores agreement—bars the government from jailing migrant children. The move by the administration to continue arresting adults while keeping their children with them in custody could run afoul of that settlement.

In the order, the Republican president directed Attorney General Jeff Sessions to try to modify that court settlement to enable officials to detain families together for the duration of their immigration proceedings.

Legal experts said that would set the stage for the same court battles that President Barack Obama’s Democratic administration fought and lost when it tried to jail migrant families together for more than 20 days.

There's no reason to think this is anywhere even close to solved.

[bjf123]

Can someone explain this to me? I doubt we’ll see the talking heads on CNN, MSNBC, etc., discussing this. I’m guessing the Fox commentators will go nuts.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/obama-cyb...204935758.html

How does this not push the blame for Russia’s interference squarely on Obama’s shoulders?


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[paulxu]

Did you read the entire article?

[xudash]

Curious - and I'm not trying to derail the dialogue on the issue of separating families, but let's see where we all stand on this one: IS ANYONE HERE IN FAVOR OF OPEN BORDERS?

A REPHRASED VERSION OF THE QUESTION: Anyone here in favor of letting everyone in? The follow-up to that is that do you favor providing governmental financial support to them?