Politics Thread

XU_Lou · 02-15-2023, 10:57 AM

Part 2:

"NATO’s aggressive expansion and militarization of former Soviet satellites and territories – in violation of the documented assurances they gave Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev thirty years earlier – was threatening to Russia. Putin drew a red line on expansion in 2008, when the United States (US) and NATO declared that Ukraine and Georgia would become part of the NATO military alliance, during their Bucharest Summit of April 2008.

The US and NATO deviously used the population of Ukraine as expendable bait – like a doomed animal – staked out to entice and ensnare a higher value target that will attack it. The “Russian Bear” trap was carefully crafted, from the US and NATO facilitated coup of the democratically elected Ukrainian government in 2014 to the incessant overtures from NATO, encouraging Ukraine to join them."

https://www.eurasiareview.com/220320...o-invade-oped/

"The most tangible sign of a growing American military presence in Eastern Europe, behind the former Iron Curtain, is tucked inside a former military base in rural Romania.

A second such American site will also be built in Eastern Europe over the next two years, this one near Poland's Baltic coast. It's inside a base that once belonged to the Nazis and later the Soviets.

But Moscow considers the American bases on NATO's eastern flank to be a provocation, a position Russia has maintained ever since the alliance began moving into Eastern Europe in the 1990s, following the Soviet breakup."

https://www.npr.org/sections/paralle...-mixed-reviews

"Putin sees Ukraine as an existential threat to Russia, believing that if it enters NATO, offensive weaponry will be placed closer to the Russian border, as already is being done in Romania and Poland."

https://theconversation.com/a-histor...history-177697

“High U.S. officials confirm that it was primarily the bombing of Russian ally Serbia — without even informing them in advance — that reversed Russian efforts to work together with the U.S. somehow to construct a post-Cold War European security order,” said Noam Chomsky in a recent interview. This “reversal accelerated with the invasion of Iraq and the bombing of Libya after Russia agreed not to veto a UN Security Council Resolution that NATO at once violated.”

https://theintercept.com/2022/03/07/...vo-war-crimes/

This Is Putin’s War. But America and NATO Aren’t Innocent Bystanders:
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/21/o...aine-nato.html

Yes, we and NATO have clearly lied to and provoked Russia. Biden did virtually nothing to defuse the situation, nor did he try to seriously negotiate a peace accord prior to the invasion. We have no business being there - this has virtually nothing to do with any US interests. What is the end game, and can it realistically be accomplished without provoking a wider war that could possible involve a nuclear exchange or the deaths of Americans? What are the broader consequences of allowing this war to continue - i.e. massive food shortages, deaths of tens of thousands of Ukranians - after provoking it and never attempting to, or even actively blocking any attempts to bring about a cease fire?

Xville · 02-15-2023, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by XU_Lou

As I said, you have an extremely narrow purview of current events, politics and history. The above is simply cherry-picked Biden talking points that he uses to propagandize simpletons.

Read and learn for once Ville (part 1):

"Two years ago, Burns wrote a memoir entitled, The Back Channel. It directly contradicts the argument being proffered by the administration he now serves. In his book, Burns says over and over that Russians of all ideological stripes—not just Putin—loathed and feared NATO expansion. He quotes a memo he wrote while serving as counselor for political affairs at the US embassy in Moscow in 1995. ‘Hostility to early NATO expansion,” it declares, “is almost universally felt across the domestic political spectrum here.” On the question of extending NATO membership to Ukraine, Burns’ warnings about the breadth of Russian opposition are even more emphatic. “Ukrainian entry into NATO is the brightest of all redlines for the Russian elite (not just Putin),” he wrote in a 2008 memo to then-Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. “In more than two and a half years of conversations with key Russian players, from knuckle-draggers in the dark recesses of the Kremlin to Putin’s sharpest liberal critics, I have yet to find anyone who views Ukraine in NATO as anything other than a direct challenge to Russian interests.”

https://peterbeinart.substack.com/p/...doesnt-believe

"June 26, 1997

Dear Mr. President,

We, the undersigned, believe that the current U.S. led effort to expand NATO, the focus of the recent Helsinki and Paris Summits, is a policy error of historic proportions. We believe that NATO expansion will decrease allied security and unsettle European stability for the following reasons:"

https://www.armscontrol.org/act/1997...nato-expansion

Yeah you have already linked that link once before. It’s a bunch of hearsay with no facts to back up these assertions. And, even if it is true, that still does not justify invading a country, committing war crimes, and certainly does not explain your ridiculous statement that “we are the belligerents.”

Last time I’ll ask. If you don’t answer, then there is no point because you don’t want to debate, you just want to spread your narrative without any real facts:

1.) who invaded whom?
2.) why did they invade?
3.) how is that we are the belligerents?
4.) what is Putin’s end game?
5.) why is someone that is Jesuit educated have the attitude that we should not be helping out a country that is having war crimes brought against it?
6.) why is it that when ukraine publicly accepted that joining NATO would not happen back in March and offered concessions, did Putin not pull out?
7.) why is it you believe Putin talking points?

XU_Lou · 02-15-2023, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by Xville

Yeah you have already linked that link once before. It’s a bunch of hearsay with no facts to back up these assertions. And, even if it is true, that still does not justify invading a country, committing war crimes, and certainly does not explain your ridiculous statement that “we are the belligerents.”

Last time I’ll ask. If you don’t answer, then there is no point because you don’t want to debate, you just want to spread your narrative without any real facts:

1.) who invaded whom?
2.) why did they invade?
3.) how is that we are the belligerents?
4.) what is Putin’s end game?
5.) why is someone that is Jesuit educated have the attitude that we should not be helping out a country that is having war crimes brought against it?

Wow - you read thru all that material VERY quickly. Thanks again for demonstrating that you don't - and have no interest in learning anything outside of your extremely narrow purview.

So sad...

Xville · 02-15-2023, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by XU_Lou

Wow - you read thru all that material VERY quickly. Thanks again for demonstrating that you don't - and have no interest in learning anything outside of your extremely narrow purview.

So sad...

You already linked to it before. I already had read it. Why don’t you go ahead and actually answer my questions instead of continuing to link stuff.

You continue to ask questions and link things without answering. That’s not how you debate, you actually answer the questions posed to you.

Oh and btw ukraine offered a ceasefire almost a year ago and they had discussions with Russia then… guess you forgot that part or maybe it was out of your wide purview.

XU_Lou · 02-15-2023, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Xville

You already linked to it before. I already had read it. Why don’t you go ahead and actually answer my questions instead of continuing to link stuff.

Are you really that dense, or are you just playing games again because you just got destroyed.

You're too easy....

BTW, you just got caught in another lie!!! I've never posted any of those links before! Not only did you lie about seeing those from me, but you obviously didn't read the above, or the links I previously posted. You lie so much you don't even know you're doing it anymore. What sick human being....

STL_XUfan · 02-15-2023, 11:34 AM

Can we go back to not quoting XU_lou, it really undermines the usefulness of the mute feature.

Xville · 02-15-2023, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by XU_Lou

Are you really that dense, or are you just playing games again because you just got destroyed.

You're too easy....

BTW, you just got caught in another lie!!! I've never posted any of those links before! Not only did you lie about seeing those from me, but you obviously didn't read the above, or the links I previously posted. You lie so much you don't even know you're doing it anymore. What sick human being....

You’ve posted the first link before. I know it’s hard to keep track, since that’s all you do here, but ok.

Now I see you have zero interest in debating, and only would like to proliferate your narrative, so there is no use for you. Sad for you.

XU_Lou · 02-15-2023, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Xville

You’ve posted the first link before. I know it’s hard to keep track, since that’s all you do here, but ok.

Now I see you have zero interest in debating, and only would like to proliferate your narrative, so there is no use for you. Sad for you.

Liar, again... I challenge you to find that link in my posts. Prove it....