Covid-19

[Lloyd Braun]

Lloyd: thank you for your comments, they are always level-headed, and appreciated. I am trying to wade through all of the information out there, your comments are helpful.

With that said, a good friend of mine just returned home from the hospital - he was there for COVID/complications related to COVID. FWIW, he has not been vaccinated. As I received periodic reports from his wife his situation seemed to be going down an all too familiar road - he started feeling bad, then worse, tested positive for COVID, and then developed pneumonia, was having trouble breathing, etc. He was in the ER three times, the third time they decided to keep him there for five days for treatment in the hopes it would keep him out of the ICU and off of a ventilator. I thought it was pretty scary. At one point we spoke and he said his body was not producing antibodies to fight off pneumonia or COVID. It definitely brought to mind some of the stories I have read in the news - stories that do not end well. Apparently there was a change for the better and he wound up home after three days. I am not saying he is through the woods but according to the docs he is headed in the right direction.

Scary stuff - especially for a guy who has a wife and two kids.

Take care and again, thank you for the info and for responding to everyone respectfully.

Principal

Well if he’s home and past day 14 that is a good thing assuming he does not have any vascular complications in the next 2 weeks.

Delta will definitely push us closer to herd immunity but at what cost? The rates of hospitalizations continues to be highest in those without immunity. There are very few undecided voters out there but if you have not had covid in the past 6-12 months and you have not been vaccinated there is high likelihood of catching it this time around.

Side note, those seeking booster vaccines has also skyrocketed this week. Pharmacies are throwing out vaccine every week and I think the CDC has dropped the ball hoping not to have people that want their first doses be shut out due to those looking for boosters. They should just say it’s ok, the data supports it. Boosters would most likely make breakthrough cases plummet and if you haven’t been vaccinated or previously infected by now you just have to expect to get the disease sometime soon. (Not directed directly at you principal, general statement).

[Xville]

Comments like this are not helpful.

Neither is posting a video of a “doctor” who presents his opinion as fact based on anecdotal evidence and misinformation.

[principal]

Neither is posting a video of a “doctor” who presents his opinion as fact based on anecdotal evidence and misinformation.

Now you’re just committing the fallacy of begging the question. The very thing we’re trying to determine is what is correct in regards to the spread of Covid and vaccinations. You can’t simply label something as misinformation. You have to address his arguments/statements (as Lloyd has done). You failed to do that, making you guilty of the very thing you accuse others of. Putting doctor in quotes doesn’t change anything - it’s just another attack on the man, another ad hominem fallacy.

You haven’t demonstrated anything, you haven’t even made a valid argument. Fallacies are…false.

You have to actually address statements and arguments that have been made. You can’t just label them and declare victory.

Principal

[Xville]

Now you’re just committing the fallacy of begging the question. The very thing we’re trying to determine is what is correct in regards to the spread of Covid and vaccinations. You can’t simply label something as misinformation. You have to address his arguments/statements (as Lloyd has done). You failed to do that, making you guilty of the very thing you accuse others of. Putting doctor in quotes doesn’t change anything - it’s just another attack on the man, another ad hominem fallacy.

You haven’t demonstrated anything, you haven’t even made a valid argument. Fallacies are…false.

You have to actually address statements and arguments that have been made. You can’t just label them and declare victory.

Principal

when his argument is based on anecdotal evidence and conjecture, there is little point in addressing his statements.

Your unvaccinated buddy almost died, 600k plus have died, there is mountains of evidence that the vaccines help, yet you are still undecided because of accounts of videos such as the one you posted above.

The vaccine contains a government tracking system used to control all of us. Maybe I’ll go search for a video where that is stated and post the link here so you can try to provide an argument for why that’s incorrect.

[boozehound]

Neither is posting a video of a “doctor” who presents his opinion as fact based on anecdotal evidence and misinformation.

I actually watched the video replied thinking he may have been operating in good faith, which I now see pretty clearly he is not. This is a traditional COVID skeptic tactic: You post rapid-fire anti-vaccine conjecture under the guise of being 'undecided'. The source is typically questionable, so you attack and skepticism of the source as 'ad hominem'. Notice he stated I 'failed to address any of his points' which is untrue. It's also difficult to address 'all' of the points because there were about 40 of them made in a 3 minute video, with almost no further elucidation of the point he was making to the degree the video got removed from YouTube for containing multiple statements that had been proven false.

Here's the thing: The medical world relies heavily on the credibility of people giving medical information. It's why Doctors have to be licensed and board certified. For most people, if a Doctor makes a recommendation or prescribes a treatment they do not question it. And they probably shouldn't, since they aren't Doctors and they didn't go to medical school. If they want they can get a second opinion of course, and often should when a Doctor recommends something that seems 'off', but they shouldn't design their own treatment plans. It's also why I think that people who aren't medical researchers or Doctors should reject, or at a minimum be highly suspicious of, 'alternative' medical advice coming from questionable sources.

It's one thing for a Doctor to pose a counter-theory to a medical board or research organization for testing and evaluation, it's another thing entirely to yell it at a school board meeting while the townsfolk cheer while somebody video tapes it to post on the internet. The entire medical community is largely based on a philosophy that until something has been tested and proven, it should only be recommended in extreme cases and this is for the safety of the general public.

[Xville]

https://www.businessinsider.com/sher...s-money-2021-8

And this is why people spread misinformation. they know there are plenty of stupid people out there who will eat this crap up and make the original source a whole lot of money. No moral compass, no conscience.

[principal]

I actually watched the video replied thinking he may have been operating in good faith, which I now see pretty clearly he is not. This is a traditional COVID skeptic tactic: You post rapid-fire anti-vaccine conjecture under the guise of being 'undecided'. The source is typically questionable, so you attack and skepticism of the source as 'ad hominem'. Notice he stated I 'failed to address any of his points' which is untrue. It's also difficult to address 'all' of the points because there were about 40 of them made in a 3 minute video, with almost no further elucidation of the point he was making to the degree the video got removed from YouTube for containing multiple statements that had been proven false.

Here's the thing: The medical world relies heavily on the credibility of people giving medical information. It's why Doctors have to be licensed and board certified. For most people, if a Doctor makes a recommendation or prescribes a treatment they do not question it. And they probably shouldn't, since they aren't Doctors and they didn't go to medical school. If they want they can get a second opinion of course, and often should when a Doctor recommends something that seems 'off', but they shouldn't design their own treatment plans. It's also why I think that people who aren't medical researchers or Doctors should reject, or at a minimum be highly suspicious of, 'alternative' medical advice coming from questionable sources.

It's one thing for a Doctor to pose a counter-theory to a medical board or research organization for testing and evaluation, it's another thing entirely to yell it at a school board meeting while the townsfolk cheer while somebody video tapes it to post on the internet. The entire medical community is largely based on a philosophy that until something has been tested and proven, it should only be recommended in extreme cases and this is for the safety of the general public.

I was posting with the hopes that someone would take the time to address what was stated in the video. You didn’t do that. To a degree, Lloyd did. I’ve expressed my appreciation for his comments and I’ve called yours out for what they are, attacks on the people and a clear-cut choice for the governments narrative without much critical thought whatsoever. As for your conclusion that I’m some sort of a bad faith actor in regards to these vaccines, your comments say more about yourself than they do about me. Of course I’m skeptical of vaccines… Isn’t that what it means to be undecided? If I weren’t skeptical wouldn’t I be decided?

I won’t continue the back-and-forth with you because I now know the type of thinker that I’m involved with. I welcome comments such as Lloyd’s, I don’t welcome comments such as yours. You may feel the same way about me, which is completely fine with me. There should probably be a separate thread started for people who want to discuss both sides of this issue rationally and respectfully.

Edit: In your original response you did address why you don’t bother to take this particular person seriously. I understand why you wouldn’t take the word of a single doctor speaking before a school board. I would not expect anyone to do that. What I was looking for is someone to address the claims he made. I can go dig up further information that supports his side and pour through the information, but I wanted to know what the opposing view is. If most of us here are honest, we don’t have the first clue about most of these things. We have zero expertise in any of the related fields. Some here clearly do. I want those people to address the claims that are blatantly being ignored in the general discussion. There is almost no honest discourse anywhere - not on CNN and not on Fox. If you want to know where we are in regards to discourse, do some reading on the so-called Hegelian Dialectic.

Principal

[principal]

https://www.businessinsider.com/sher...s-money-2021-8

And this is why people spread misinformation. they know there are plenty of stupid people out there who will eat this crap up and make the original source a whole lot of money. No moral compass, no conscience.

Yeah, there is so much money in junk science compared to the paltry amount of money being made in the vaccine industry.

[Xville]

Yeah, there is so much money in junk science compared to the paltry amount of money being made in the vaccine industry.

The difference is that vaccines are based on actual science.

[boozehound]

https://www.businessinsider.com/sher...s-money-2021-8

And this is why people spread misinformation. they know there are plenty of stupid people out there who will eat this crap up and make the original source a whole lot of money. No moral compass, no conscience.

Bingo. And often the sources that propagate this information are benefitting from the engagement which drives usage / clicks. The thing about conspiracy theories is that people engage deeply with them. Almost nobody is casual conspiracy theorist. Once you get them, they will buy whatever you are selling without question. Just look at Alex Jones, who literally stops in the middle of his show to hawk snake oil.

If you want an idea at how deeply people engage with conspiracy, consider that my man Principal just posted a video of a school board meeting from a town with a population of 7,000. Think about how deeply you have to be engaging with that narrative to not only watch that, but then re-post it. How many more videos like that do you think make the rounds in the conspiracy theorist circles? There have to be thousands.

The playbook seems pretty clear: You position yourself as a counter-option to the 'big government narrative' and then tell people that they are smarter than 'the masses' for 'questioning the narrative'. Who doesn't love that? You float from one theory to the next sowing doubt, but you don't ever have to prove anything. It can be done with nearly everything. Then the next thing you know you are storming a Pizza Parlor in DC to save the kids being imprisoned in the basement.