Notre Dame > Xavier

pickledpigsfeet · 01-16-2008, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by YoItsMikeRagone

Interesting analysis. What is your basis for saying that he doesnt watch enough CFB? Every year a rebuilding team is supposed to win 10?

Ohio State did.

Its one thing to have great recruiting classes, its another thing to bring those kids in a coach them up. Look at schools like Florida St., Tennessee, and Miami where they get some of the best kids in the country every year but in the past few years those teams have failed to live up to expectations (with the possible exception of Tennessee this year).

**scooper** · 01-16-2008, 08:56 AM

There are different levels of "rebuilding."

OSU rebuilt. But with a good number of seniors and juniors. And what they call "juniors" were often red shirt juniors who were actually in their fourth year with the program. A lot needed to happen for them with a lot of new starters, and to their credit-those guys stepped up. But most of them had been there 3-4 years.

Sure, a lot of teams start first and second year guys. Good luck finding a team this year that started more than ND did. You won't find it because they don't exist. Their upper classes actually had about as many scholarship players as one full recruiting class...they were that thin. And not only thin, the Jr. and Sr. classes were comprised of their two least regarded classes in decades. In terms of both size of class and star power.

Now, all excuses aside, there were also some major coaching errors. Namely, trying to coach 18 and 19 year olds like professionals. It had worked the two years before because it was a more experienced and mature group.

Practices were not physical with no real hard contact and it showed on the field. They switched gears after the Michigan game and it showed a bit, but by then it was too late. You build your team before the season.

Then there was the ill fated attempt at trying to install a West Virginia type spread option offense in the offseason. That failed and was scrapped after the first game, but again, it was too late.

These were all serious coaching mistakes that combined with the lack of depth and experience as well as a tough front loaded schedule, all created a perfect storm which brought the shit sandwich that was the ND 07 season.

Will they improve? It will be hard not to. The talent is certainly getting better and deeper. But some guys are going to have to grow up and the coaching needs to be more focussed on execution, energy and physical play as opposed to getting too cute with the X's and O's. Playcalling doesn't matter if your Oline can't block.

pickledpigsfeet · 01-16-2008, 09:28 AM

Here is Ohio State's depth chart for this year. Check out how the classes break down. 5 seniors listed and 3 of those are at fullback. Lots of Freshmen and Sophmores listed. The cupboard isn't as bare as ND's but it wasn't like they started 8 seniors on each side of the ball either.

http://bucknuts.com/football/depthchart/

**scooper** · 01-16-2008, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by pickledpigsfeet

Here is Ohio State's depth chart for this year. Check out how the classes break down. 5 seniors listed and 3 of those are at fullback. Lots of Freshmen and Sophmores listed. The cupboard isn't as bare as ND's but it wasn't like they started 8 seniors on each side of the ball either.

http://bucknuts.com/football/depthchart/

It's apples and oranges. ND reports players as freshmen and sophmores so redshirts aren't in the equation. If you count red shirts, Ohio St. actually had more than 5 seniors.

The breakdowns of the starters including number of years in the program (or in college football in case of Jucos, is this)

OSU

5- 1
4- 5
3- 13
2- 4
1- 0

ND

5- 5
4- 3
3- 6
2- 5
1- 3

So ND actually had more "seniors" but what is missing here is the talent of the seniors. ND's is primarily a bunch of 3 three stars with a couple 4 stars thrown in, while OSU's had much more talent to begin with. Also, third year players have plenty of experience and OSU's third year guys made up one hell of a group. That's where the big gap was. ND's junior class lacks both numbers and talent, thus the need for freshmen and sophomores to play significant roles, including important QB, WR, and OL positions.

Overall, OSU had three true freshmen in the two deep, with none starting. ND has 6 with three listed as starters, but the other three also started games at one time or another. Overall, 7 true freshmen started at one time or another.

Again, OSU deserves a lot of credit for the job they did this year in what was supposed to be a "rebuilding" year, but they had plenty of talent and experience to perform at a high level.

I don't think ND did, and that was exacerbated by some glaring coaching mistakes.

**scooper** · 01-16-2008, 10:10 AM

Anyway, I came to this board to get away from football talk and enjoy some basketball talk and here I get sucked back in. I really do have to blame stoney.

YoItsMikeRagone · 01-17-2008, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by DC Muskie

So just to be clear. In a rebuilding year for ND, they can lose to Navy?

You guys makes it sound like ND was the only school in the country who played first and second year players. I'll give you an example of a team that was considered in a "rebuilding year." Ohio State. All they did was win the Big Ten and play in the national championship.

But good luck to the Domers. It can only go up from here!

When you take a doodie out of your mouth, do you wipe it off with toilet paper?

ND started more underclassmen than any other upper tier school out of necessity. Our upper classes were ruined from horrid recruiting classes, from a certain coach, that shall be forgotten from ND lore. Im sure the comparison to OSU's situation is a joke, right? No? Well, then you definitely need to watch some more CFB.

YoItsMikeRagone · 01-17-2008, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by pickledpigsfeet

Ohio State did.

Its one thing to have great recruiting classes, its another thing to bring those kids in a coach them up. Look at schools like Florida St., Tennessee, and Miami where they get some of the best kids in the country every year but in the past few years those teams have failed to live up to expectations (with the possible exception of Tennessee this year).

Ill start off with being fair. The FL schools; FSU and Miami have also been plagued by some of the worst QB play in decades. Weatherford and Wright just flat out bombed.

Year after year, those 2 teams fail, yet the talent still goes to the NFL. Why? Because they still produce top grade talent, just lack team skills, and more importantly coaching.

Outside of new coach Randy Shannon, all of the HC's have been in hot water for the past few years because of exactly what youre saying. Tenn does play in a harder conf. - to be fair.

All 3 of those schools get the benefit of the doubt as per ranking every year, too. So much that theyve become THE most overrated schools in the nation.

Finally, People need to stop acting like ND has been recruiting with the likes of these schools for years, because that is the worst assessment ever given. ND just started recruiting again in 2006.

**Stonebreaker** · 01-17-2008, 04:30 PM

I agree you you Ragone, the classes before 2006 were God-awful. Thanx to Ty's (dare I say his name?) ineptness at recruiting. This is evident at the number of freshman starting at the skill positions on offense, and having a weak DL and LB corp. This doesn't even take into account the lack of depth.
ND is improving its depth, and will should win 7 or so games next year, with 2009 being the breakout year.