The Big 12 is ABOUT to get better!!

[GoMuskies]

Going to Kansas State on a Monday in February is a bit tougher than going to Portland or UC Santa whatever.

I'm not sure that's right. They stink.

[GoMuskies]

Personally, I just find the narrative creep on Gonzaga by some on here (MOR) kind of goofy:

They don't beat anyone becomes they don't beat anyone at the RIGHT time of year becomes they don't win in the NCAA Tournament becomes they only win in the NCAA Tournament because those other teams beat up on each other all year and are worn out becomes well they haven't actually won an NCAA championship yet!

All the while, they've beaten us every time we've played and mostly beaten us to death (other than the one time they were really SUPPOSED to beat us to death).

At some point, you know, they're just a really good program that has pretty much earned its reputation.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Personally, I just find the narrative creep on Gonzaga by some on here (MOR) kind of goofy:

They don't beat anyone becomes they don't beat anyone at the RIGHT time of year becomes they don't win in the NCAA Tournament becomes they only win in the NCAA Tournament because those other teams beat up on each other all year and are worn out becomes well they haven't actually won an NCAA championship yet!

All the while, they've beaten us every time we've played and mostly beaten us to death (other than the one time they were really SUPPOSED to beat us to death).

At some point, you know, they're just a really good program that has pretty much earned its reputation.

There was a point that Gonzaga was an overrated media darling with little tournament success to back it up and they were getting attention that non majors like XU and Memphis (at the time) should have been getting. Until 2015 they had been to 1 Elite 8.

What they've since done in the last decade, and really the last 7-8 years especially has been amazing, and they have truly become one of the giants of the sport that we can't compare to.

Pre 2015 there was an argument to be had X was the better program. There isn't any even semblance of an argument of that now.

Still, would love to see them in a power conference. I don't think it will hurt them overall, but surely they wont be going into every tournament with 1 loss.

[muskiefan82]

They might not be a #1 seed every year, but they will enter the tournament completely tested by late season tough teams. They may be even MORE dangerous after going through the Big 12 season.

[MHettel]

Pre 2015 there was an argument to be had X was the better program. There isn't any even semblance of an argument of that now.

Honestly, i would love to see your argument about X being a better program than Gonzaga through the 2014 season. I think as soon as you started looking into it, you'll want to come back and edit this comment....

[D-West & PO-Z]

Honestly, i would love to see your argument about X being a better program than Gonzaga through the 2014 season. I think as soon as you started looking into it, you'll want to come back and edit this comment....

I don't mean each individual season. But if you took the totality of let's say 2000-2014, I was saying there was an argument to be made, not even that it was fact. And maybe 2014 extends it a bit too far, I was doing it from purely a Gonzaga finally starting to break through consistently to the second weekend of the tournament at that point. I think the ultimate success of a college basketball program is NCAA tourney success.

2000-2014
Xavier Sweet 16's: 5
Xavier Elite 8's: 2

2000-2014
Gonzaga Sweet 16's: 4
Gonzaga Elite 8's: 0

Again, I wouldn't say 100% up until 2014 we were definitely the better program but there was an argument to be made, especially based on tourney success. And again, I didn't go back and look at rankings or regular season success in that time frame so maybe I went a little far with the years.....


Edit: And really, more than anything, I was trying to get across what an incredible run of success and elevation of their program they have had in the last 7-8 years. It is truly amazing.

[D-West & PO-Z]

During the above timeframe Gonzaga had on average a 6.7 seed in the tournament and Xavier had a 7.7 seed average.

That would lead me to believe they had, on average, better regular season success, not by much however, than Xavier during that timeframe, but Xavier had better postseason success.

Again, an argument could be made either way over that timeframe.

No argument can even begin to remotely be made for Xavier now. Gonzaga deserves all the props.

[XUBison]

I don't mean each individual season. But if you took the totality of let's say 2000-2014, I was saying there was an argument to be made, not even that it was fact. And maybe 2014 extends it a bit too far, I was doing it from purely a Gonzaga finally starting to break through consistently to the second weekend of the tournament at that point. I think the ultimate success of a college basketball program is NCAA tourney success.

2000-2014
Xavier Sweet 16's: 5
Xavier Elite 8's: 2

2000-2014
Gonzaga Sweet 16's: 4
Gonzaga Elite 8's: 0

Again, I wouldn't say 100% up until 2014 we were definitely the better program but there was an argument to be made, especially based on tourney success. And again, I didn't go back and look at rankings or regular season success in that time frame so maybe I went a little far with the years.....


Edit: And really, more than anything, I was trying to get across what an incredible run of success and elevation of their program they have had in the last 7-8 years. It is truly amazing.

Right. And in 2014, they might have said Gonzaga has been good since all the way back in… 2000. And we would have pointed out we’d been good since the late 80s. And they would have said, but-but-but… Stockton? Now I am embarrassed to think about how cocky Mack was towards them, although it seemed perfect at the time. .

[D-West & PO-Z]

Right. And in 2014, they might have said Gonzaga has been good since all the way back in… 2000. And we would have pointed out we’d been good since the late 80s. And they would have said, but-but-but… Stockton? Now I am embarrassed to think about how cocky Mack was towards them, although it seemed perfect at the time. .

Yeah, Gonzaga deserves all the hype now but there was a time it was overblown. Maybe it was being the only team on ESPN late nights? Or dominating a bad conference? Or some other combination of factors? There was a good stretch in the late 2000's/early 10's where I would get so upset with their hype compared to ours.

[MHettel]

I don't mean each individual season. But if you took the totality of let's say 2000-2014, I was saying there was an argument to be made, not even that it was fact. And maybe 2014 extends it a bit too far, I was doing it from purely a Gonzaga finally starting to break through consistently to the second weekend of the tournament at that point. I think the ultimate success of a college basketball program is NCAA tourney success.

2000-2014
Xavier Sweet 16's: 5
Xavier Elite 8's: 2

2000-2014
Gonzaga Sweet 16's: 4
Gonzaga Elite 8's: 0

Again, I wouldn't say 100% up until 2014 we were definitely the better program but there was an argument to be made, especially based on tourney success. And again, I didn't go back and look at rankings or regular season success in that time frame so maybe I went a little far with the years.....


Edit: And really, more than anything, I was trying to get across what an incredible run of success and elevation of their program they have had in the last 7-8 years. It is truly amazing.

I'm surprised you even made an attempt at this.

What you SAID was "Pre 2015 there was an argument to be had X was the better program." And then when I asked you to MAKE that argument, it's suddenly narrowed down to 2000-2014 and Sweet 16 or beyond as the criteria. Convenient, since starting in 2000 allows you to exclude the Elite 8 appearance in 1999.

In terms of NCAA appearances, Gonzaga went 15 for 15 during this period (and still hasn't missed a tournament), while XU went 12-15. When the "average seed" is calculated, we somehow ignore the fact that XU didnt make it 3 times. I like that approach. Here let me try it......XU has averaged a #1 seed in the NCAA tournament over the last 5 years. Impressive!

Gonzaga wont their conference regular season title 13 times and the Conference tournament 11 times. Xu won 7 regular season and 3 conference tournament titles. NOT....EVEN....CLOSE. And dont even try to make up the difference in these stats by comparing conferences. The A10 was slightly better.

I'm not even going to bother with a comparison (cant find the info for XU) on these other stats, but these accolades for Gonzaga dwarf XU.

2000-2014

Mark Few- 9x WCC Coach of the Year
10 Gonzaga players were WCC POY
5 WCC Defensive POY
39 First team all WCC Players (thats like 2.4 PER YEAR)
11 WCC Tournament MOP
1 National Player of the Year
3 First Team All Americans
3 Second Team All Americans
9 HM All Americans

4 First Round NBA Picks
4 NBA Second Round Picks
12 Guys played in the NBA

During this period Gonzaga had an overall record of 403-100 (80.1%). Xu had a record of 351-147 (70.5%).

XU went 0-3 head to head against Gonzaga during this period.

And you conclude your analysis with "an argument could be made either way over that timeframe"