Do you think the United States just had a free and fair election?

[paulxu]

The Georgia system from a Federal Court ruling:

https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/...055.61.0_1.pdf

[X-man]

The Georgia system from a Federal Court ruling:

https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/...055.61.0_1.pdf

I don't think that you understand this basic principle, Paul: anyone who doesn't support Trump's unproven, evidence-free, and hysterical claims of massive voter fraud is part of the "deep state" conspiracy. This includes judges (even Republican judges including those appointed by Trump himself), all federal officials who claim that there is no such evidence (even those in the Trump administration), state and local election officials (including Republican governors like Kemp and Ducey), all mainstream media (even those on Fox who dare to ask for evidence to support Trump's claims), and the majority of the voting public. It's so simple a proposition, I can't believe that you don't understand it!

[X-man]

If you had a background and statistics and auditing, you would know that there is evidence of fraud. Statistical evidence of fraud that needs to be audited. It is not being audited or analyzed by the media. Nobody cares. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

One of the mistakes we all make is to assume that people think like we do. "Why can't they see this when I can see it!"

I am a numbers guy. I have audited things and worked for organizations that conduct audits. Certain transactions are automatically "flagged" for audit in many organizations because they are out of the statistical norm. Some of these large vote batches that went entirely for Biden would have been automatically flagged and examined.

Note that evidence is not proof. There is substantial statistical evidence of fraud, but that is not proof.

You may throw away the envelopes with signatures and not ever have a chance of proof. The people that do the electronic voting software claim it is proprietary and can't be audited. Certain situations can't be proven.

But proof is not the same as evidence. You said no evidence. There is serious statistical evidence of fraud. It has not been addressed. It looks like it will not be addressed. In one batch in PA, 25,000 votes came in and they were all for Biden. This was reported on the 538 website. If I have to explain to you how this would be statistically impossible, I wouldn't know what to say. These things demand explanation. It doesn't look like I am going to get an explanation. It also looks like you are giving cover for them, but you should know better. It doesnt help any of us to let shit like that stand.

I can't find this source on the 538 site. But I did find this one: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...lection-night/

[paulxu]

This may be a classic example of a frivolous lawsuit. You would think they would have qualified experts to file the suit.

https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/...055.60.0_2.pdf

[Smails]

One is about mis-characterizing large groups of individuals. The other is believing crazy conspiracy theories without evidence and refusing to be convinced otherwise.

Are you talking about Russian collusion in the 2016 election?

[boozehound]

Are you talking about Russian collusion in the 2016 election?

More Whataboutism? That's not really much of a response. I don't believe that you actually think these two issues are of the same magnitude, I think you just have a major Republican persecution complex.

The Russian Collusion thing was ridiculous theater IMO. The impeachment proceedings were even more ridiculous, considering that the Democrats had to know that they didn't have the votes to convict.

Trump is alleging massive voter fraud at a level that requires essentially our entire electoral system to be almost irredeemably corrupt. Large groups of electoral officials would have to be in on a similar scheme to sway the election for Biden. They would have to be backed up by State elected officials like the (extremely Republican and Trump supporting) Governor of Georgia. They would have to do all of this without anything resembling a smoking gun being found. These are the same people who got caught leaking a primary debate question in the 2016 election.

The Russian collusion investigation was essentially alleging that Trump, or some in his orbit, accepted information from the Russians that they believe benefitted their campaign. They may have implied that they would treat Russia more favorably than Clinton would have, but I'm not sure. I think there were some other allegations there, as well, but that was the jist of it. That really doesn't seem that hard to believe. I think that if they did do it, there is a decent chance that they may not even have known it was illegal. It was called collusion, but I think that the term collusion may overstate the level to which the two parties coordinated (if at all).

Those don't seem to me to be anywhere on the same level from a conspiracy theory standpoint. Can you help me understand your perspective?

[boozehound]

If you had a background and statistics and auditing, you would know that there is evidence of fraud. Statistical evidence of fraud that needs to be audited. It is not being audited or analyzed by the media. Nobody cares. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

One of the mistakes we all make is to assume that people think like we do. "Why can't they see this when I can see it!"

I am a numbers guy. I have audited things and worked for organizations that conduct audits. Certain transactions are automatically "flagged" for audit in many organizations because they are out of the statistical norm. Some of these large vote batches that went entirely for Biden would have been automatically flagged and examined.

Note that evidence is not proof. There is substantial statistical evidence of fraud, but that is not proof.

You may throw away the envelopes with signatures and not ever have a chance of proof. The people that do the electronic voting software claim it is proprietary and can't be audited. Certain situations can't be proven.

But proof is not the same as evidence. You said no evidence. There is serious statistical evidence of fraud. It has not been addressed. It looks like it will not be addressed. In one batch in PA, 25,000 votes came in and they were all for Biden. This was reported on the 538 website. If I have to explain to you how this would be statistically impossible, I wouldn't know what to say. These things demand explanation. It doesn't look like I am going to get an explanation. It also looks like you are giving cover for them, but you should know better. It doesnt help any of us to let shit like that stand.

This is tough to respond to, as there is a lot of un-sourced 'information' here. I actually do have some background in statistical analysis, however more as an end-user of statistical analysis than someone who conducts the study.

Vote patterns are tricky in that they don't come in evenly, at all. They come in by precinct, and each precinct may vote very differently. So the patterns you establish early in the vote counting process don't necessarily hold for later batches of votes. I would agree that 25K votes going 100% for Biden would be a statistical anomaly and should be investigated. I tried to further research this, but I couldn't really find anything about it, so I'm not sure if it's true.

Moving beyond what is a substantiated vs. unsubstantiated claim, the core of what you are alleging assumes the following:

Widespread corruption of elected officials with no one coming forward to explain what happened and how. You would likely have needed thousands (at least hundreds) of people to be participants in a scheme of this magnitude. They would have had to pull this off without anybody getting cold feet, feeling regret, or just being a 'double agent' and coming forward to tell the Country exactly what had happened. I don't think anyone, least of all the Democrats, are capable of that level of coordination. I do realize that some people have come forward alleging fraud, but so far no one has testified under oath in court (that I'm aware of) and most of the allegations are of the nature of 'I saw boxes of ballets being carried in' vs. 'I was in on the scheme and know how it went down'. I do not believe that this could have happened without someone coming forward.

Then you would need State Legislatures to essentially be complicit. Look at Georgia. That is a Republican state with a Republican Governor who is a massive supporter of Trump. He is publicly saying there is no evidence of large scale fraud. William Barr, Trump's AG, also said there is no evidence at this time of widespread voter fraud.

We should investigate anomalies and allegations of voter fraud, absolutely. Having the President spend a month undermining the electoral process in his own Country while we are doing so should not happen. He should not be giving 90 minute diatribes from the White House about (as of yet) unsubstantiated allegations of Fraud.

[Smails]

More Whataboutism?

Those don't seem to me to be anywhere on the same level from a conspiracy theory standpoint. Can you help me understand your perspective?

I'll try to keep this a little more succinct for our readers. First of all I have no idea of what Republican persecution complex is but it does have a nice ring to it. Also understand that just because you have very strong personal opinions about something, doesn't necessarily make it a fact or make the other side of the argument any less of a 'response'. I firmly believe that bullshit charges, built on the back of a bought and paid for illegal document that alleges our largest geo-political rival helped influence our election is a big deal. Dems used the power of our constitution to impeach a sitting POTUS because they didn't like him.

The investigation, the coverage, the hearings, the HUGE taxpayer-funded price tag, the time completely wasted by our elected officials vetting a completely bogus narrative, damaged our government. It basically created a road map for future impeachment hearings because one party doesn't like the way a particular POTUS works and plays with others. I find that every bit as damaging to the integrity of our system as shit the DJT is pulling right now. What you call whataboutism, I call holding both sides accountable for asinine behavior. What you call ridiculous theater I call a complete abuse of your elected duties.

[paulxu]

You should note a couple things:
1 - Trump's impeachment charges were for attempting to pressure another country to investigate his political opponent, and obstructing congress in its investigations. Not anything to do with the Mueller investigation findings.
2 - The Republican lead Senate committee did determine that Russia had interfered with our elections, and in fact a number of people were indicted for this activity. The fact that officials from the Trump campaign met with Russians to get offered dirt on his opponent does seem like something an American wouldn't do.

[Smails]

You should note a couple things:
1 - Trump's impeachment charges were for attempting to pressure another country to investigate his political opponent, and obstructing congress in its investigations. Not anything to do with the Mueller investigation findings.
2 - The Republican lead Senate committee did determine that Russia had interfered with our elections, and in fact a number of people were indicted for this activity. The fact that officials from the Trump campaign met with Russians to get offered dirt on his opponent does seem like something an American wouldn't do.

You are so ideologically blind that you can't even admit that the Mueller investigation and the entire impeachment was a complete sham because people didn't like Trump. Dems wanted to kick Trump out of their sandbox because he was a bully and they used the power of the US govt to try to execute it. They failed and wasted hundreds of millions of dollars in doing so. Just understand that when people talk about political discourse being broken in this country, it's because of people like you who refuse to acknowledge that their 'side' is just as dirty as the side they oppose. Jesus, wake up man.