Game Thread: Xavier v. Eastern Kentucky (11/30/2020)

xavierj · 12-02-2020, 05:10 AM

Originally Posted by X Factor

And he was an unranked 2 or 3 star recruit in HS who wouldn't get a recruiting letter, let alone scholarship offer, if he were in HS today.

He turned into a very good college player over four years. I think coaching had a lot to do with that.

This is Steele's team now. He has his guys. I like Travis, but its time to start seeing those improvements.

I don’t know. With AAU today I would imagine Doellman would have been heavily recruited and higher ranked. Guy was 6’9” in high school with a smooth stroke and skill. Was overlooked because he played in NKY. Same with Derrick Brown as far as how kids are recruited today. Also with transfers CJ definitely would have been a take. A lot of the guys Xavier has recruited lately are guys that were under the radar and then blew up. When Sean took over not as many guys blew up after being identified because they didn’t have the channels to get noticed like they do now. With how big aau is and how everything is done through things line twitter to get your name out there, it is harder to get overlooked. Also Miles was not a highly ranked player either and Travis offered him.

**XUGRAD80** · 12-02-2020, 06:10 AM

People get to hung up on stars and rankings of high school players when judging how good a recruit may be, or how good a roster is. The only thing that really matters is....Can they play? Who even heard of Obi Harris coming out of HS? He was a total unknown. What about the kid from Murray State a couple of years ago? Nobody knew of him until his senior year in college. Kunkel was a 2* player out of NKY before he became a scorer at Belmont. As was pointed out, Miles was hardly known because he didn’t play AAU ball. On the other hand, Bishop, Kennedy, and some of the other recruits that X had in Steele’s 1st-2nd years had 3-4* (depending on what recruiting service you look at) and really haven’t panned out. There are innumerable cases of 4-5* players coming out of HS that never had much of an impact in college, for one reason or another. And there are hundreds/thousands of examples where unknown and unranked players became either stars or at least very good college players. Good recruiters find talent. Good recruiters are also good evaluators of players. Good coaches develop that talent. Hardly any HS player comes into college and is ready to compete from day 1. Most have an adjustment period and have to learn how to compete at the college level. How to play hard ALL of the time, and not just when they have the ball in their hands. Some never learn it. They aren’t just a “could have been”, they are a “never was”.
From the looks of Odom, Free, Tandy, Johnson, and some of the past Xavier players that Steele helped recruit, he can identify and recruit talented players. The development part is still open to question, but from what I’ve seen from Zack and KyKy this year, I think he can. What’s left is ....Can he develop all this talent into a TEAM? Miller could and did.....against A10 competition mostly. He hasn’t been quite as successful at Arizona, even though he has gotten (on paper at least) better recruits there than he had at X.
I think that the comparison is justified. I don’t think that you can just compare the levels of success without also taking into consideration the levels of completion. You should also take into consideration that if X was still playing in the A10, some of the players on its roster wouldn’t have come to X. Bottom line is that you can “if” and “but” this whole thing to death and still never prove anything one way or the other.

Lloyd Braun · 12-02-2020, 06:14 AM

An Obi Harris reference, wow! That must be a brain fart.

People focus on recruiting rankings because they are generally better players. To win a national Championship and get to the final four regularly you need 4-5* players. 3* players aren’t going to cut it. Obviously there are diamonds in the rough and guys that don’t live up to hype but I’ll take my chances with 4-5* players 10/10 times.

**murray87** · 12-02-2020, 06:42 AM

Originally Posted by XU 87

I was at the game last night. It ain't much of a home crowd.

So what's it like inside Cintas right now? Can you roam around and sit wherever you want? Any food and beverage available? (I feel bad for all the fundraising groups probably missing a lot of $$$ due to no or very few fans at sporting events). Can you take your mask down to berate the officials properly?? I sure do miss being part of a big crowd for a big time game.

**XUGRAD80** · 12-02-2020, 06:42 AM

Well of course everyone wants to recruit the best players they can, and generally the rankings are fairly accurate, but they certainly are not a guarantee. That’s not the point. The point was made that many of the players on the roster during Miller’s time would not be on the roster now, so Steele has better players than Miller did. My point is, that’s not necessarily true. Miller had players that could play, no matter what their recruiting ranks. Don’t get too hung up on what the recruiting ranks where when comparing players from different eras. The real question is if they could play. When the Miller players played against teams with higher ranked players, they were able to compete with them, often quite successfully. Rankings are not everything.

Brain fart indeed.....Obi Tobbin not Harris

xavierj · 12-02-2020, 07:41 AM

Originally Posted by X Factor

I'm not making a judgement one way or the other, but it's hard to compare Miller and Steele against each other. They are two totally different situations.

Yes, Steele has played a lot tougher schedules, but he's also had WAY more talent. Look at the rosters of Miller's first two teams! There's not one kid who would be recruited by Xavier today. It's impressive that Miller developed a lot of those 2 star and 3 star guys into the 2008 team that culminated in arguably Xavier's best team ever. We're talking about guys like Hammertime, BJ Raymond, Jason Love, CJ Anderson (local kid who went to Manhattan out of HS). None of those guys would get a sniff from Xavier today.

Miller's third year he came within a stupid freakin' call by a stupid ref of knocking off a GREAT OSU team loaded with future NBA guys. Doellman, Cage, Brandon Cole, redshirt freshman Derrick Brown, etc. Maybe Josh Duncan and Cage get offered by Xavier, but no way Steele offers those other guys today.

There's just no comparing the talent Steele is pulling in today.

One thing Sean's teams could do was shoot. They made FT's and could knock down the three ball.

Josh Duncan, and Cage were all 4 star top 100 players and Drew Lavender was a McDonalds all American. That team had some talent. Dante Jackson was also a 4 star top 100 player but he came the year after the Ohio State debacle.

drudy23 · 12-02-2020, 08:05 AM

I don't know if I buy the "we're getting much better players now" argument completely. I think today's players are different, not necessarily better. Outside of the 5 stars, which we rarely get, recruiting rankings are relatively meaningless. The difference between a 2-4 over the course of a college career are relatively small. If anything, it shows how impressive Xavier has been with developing talent.

The jump from 4 star to 5 star is usually significant. It's why the programs that consistently get the 5 stars are always the cream of the crop year in and year out.

RetireFiftyTu · 12-02-2020, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by X Factor

I'm not making a judgement one way or the other, but it's hard to compare Miller and Steele against each other. They are two totally different situations.

Yes, Steele has played a lot tougher schedules, but he's also had WAY more talent. Look at the rosters of Miller's first two teams! There's not one kid who would be recruited by Xavier today. It's impressive that Miller developed a lot of those 2 star and 3 star guys into the 2008 team that culminated in arguably Xavier's best team ever. We're talking about guys like Hammertime, BJ Raymond, Jason Love, CJ Anderson (local kid who went to Manhattan out of HS). None of those guys would get a sniff from Xavier today.

Miller's third year he came within a stupid freakin' call by a stupid ref of knocking off a GREAT OSU team loaded with future NBA guys. Doellman, Cage, Brandon Cole, redshirt freshman Derrick Brown, etc. Maybe Josh Duncan and Cage get offered by Xavier, but no way Steele offers those other guys today.

There's just no comparing the talent Steele is pulling in today.

One thing Sean's teams could do was shoot. They made FT's and could knock down the three ball.

Sean's first team had 3 RSCI Top 100 recruits (Dedrick Finn - 95, Keith Jackson - 52, Churchill Odia - 56). Justin Cage and Josh Duncan were both four star Top 100 recruits. Compare to Steele's first team. Also 3 RSCI Top 100 recruits (Marshall - 57, Scruggs - 29, Goodin - 77). Also had Tyrique Jones who was a four star just outside the Top 100. Pretty comparable talent imo.

Doellman wasn't a highly rated recruit, but his skillset would be perfectly suited to the game today. Brown was ranked just outside the Top 100 and had offers from Michigan State, NC State, and Wake Forest. Miller also got Lavender who was a McDonald's All-American. I would agree that guys like Burrell, Love, Raymond, Cole, and Anderson likely wouldn't be recruited to Xavier today. They all turned into really nice players. Credit to Sean and staff for that. We haven't really seen if Steele can develop his HS recruits into great players. Enough time hasn't gone by to evaluate that yet. Freemantle has taken a big jump this year so far.

Miller is my favorite Xavier coach ever. My overall point here is that Miller started out shaky and many weren't sold on him until at least midway through his third year. A lot of people weren't sold on Mack until deep into his 6th season. Not trying to make excuses for Travis but many are out on him when I think it's too early to tell. He hasn't proven anything yet, but I think it's ludicrous to already be writing him off already.