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Thread: Covid-19

  1. #6191
    Supporting Member noteggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd Braun View Post
    I really think Delta was a game changer on the vaccine’s potential to eradicate. In theory there could be eradication with widespread vaccination and immunity but that ship has sailed without the ability to have worldwide distribution/acceptance of the vaccine. That is why we are seeing boosters, which is a tough spot ethically to be getting boosters while there are countries desperate for doses.

    The study from the Atlantic article should be taken with a giant grain of salt and as usual is being misinterpreted on a couple levels. Not shocking, but the data is intended to show the effects of the vaccine on hospitalization. The VA does things very different than community hospitals so applying the data from the VA to the general public is a huge mistake.
    I’ll concede the first point about the study. Also agree VA is a different animal for the most part. What do you expect from governmental controlled healthcare system. Sorry couldn’t resist. There are benefits to using VA data though. One being the vast amount of data that can be quickly collected. Obviously you stated the limitations.

    However, not sure you can suggest they did things differently in this case. They are just reporting the covid data that was federally mandated. To my knowledge, hospital systems are not required to breakdown the severity (except for ICU rates) or when the patient tested positive before submitting.

    I agreed with you at the beginning that cases and deaths were undercounted because the lack of testing. Hopefully you will agree that hospitalizations due to covid are being over counted?

    As for eradication with the vaccine, that ship was never at the dock. The covid vaccines never showed a blocking mechanism of the disease. Hard to eradicate with this missing element as we’re finding out with breakthroughs and the ability to pass on the virus while vaccinated.

    Eventually we were going to deal with Delta variant regardless. Heck, it was already discovered before we had FDA emergency approval. Yes not a big player at the time in the world, but would eventually because of the high transmissibility rates. Again, going back to the lack of blocking.

  2. #6192
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    Quote Originally Posted by principal View Post
    When you tell people who test positive for Covid to go home and wait until they can’t breathe and then head to the hospital, that tends to result in an increase in the number of hospitalizations.
    Yeah…maybe they should have gotten a vaccine and not taken other people’s spots with emergencies.

  3. #6193
    Junior Lloyd Braun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noteggs View Post
    I’ll concede the first point about the study. Also agree VA is a different animal for the most part. What do you expect from governmental controlled healthcare system. Sorry couldn’t resist. There are benefits to using VA data though. One being the vast amount of data that can be quickly collected. Obviously you stated the limitations.

    However, not sure you can suggest they did things differently in this case. They are just reporting the covid data that was federally mandated. To my knowledge, hospital systems are not required to breakdown the severity (except for ICU rates) or when the patient tested positive before submitting.

    I agreed with you at the beginning that cases and deaths were undercounted because the lack of testing. Hopefully you will agree that hospitalizations due to covid are being over counted?

    As for eradication with the vaccine, that ship was never at the dock. The covid vaccines never showed a blocking mechanism of the disease. Hard to eradicate with this missing element as we’re finding out with breakthroughs and the ability to pass on the virus while vaccinated.

    Eventually we were going to deal with Delta variant regardless. Heck, it was already discovered before we had FDA emergency approval. Yes not a big player at the time in the world, but would eventually because of the high transmissibility rates. Again, going back to the lack of blocking.
    I’m not sure on reporting of hospitalizations. Perhaps they are over reported? I couldn’t find anything in this particular study that was referenced that the hospitalizations in the data collected were the same hospitalizations reported. Accessing electronic health records and filtering out data is fairly complex. For instance, here is a direct quote from the study in the methods section:

    “All inpatient admissions to a Veterans Affairs (VA) hospital between 3/1/2020-6/30/2021 with a laboratory-confirmed diagnosis of SARS-CoV-2 up to 14 days prior to or during the admission were included, and data were extracted electronically from the VA Corporate Data Warehouse.”

    How do we know which hospitalizations the VA reported? Perhaps they are reported perhaps they are not. The intent of the study is really good, and I agree that if someone is in the hospital for a presurgical procedure and tests positive it shouldn’t count as a hospitalization. I know that the two hospitals systems I have seen reports on behind the scenes do not report these as hospitalizations. They strictly report those hospitalized due to covid or complications from covid. The ICU data is particularly helpful when evaluating disease severity and burden. I’m not sure people really pay attention to it as much as covid deaths as it stands. My original point however was people such as Muskie in Dayton taking this data and interpreting it as “hospitalizations are over reported”. Are we really trying to diminish the effects this virus has at this point? The author of the Atlantic article is far from “left-leaning” as well and as always with the media (on both sides) there is an agenda that does not have the public’s best interest.

    Regarding eradication, I still believe it is theoretically possible, just not practical in reality. The vaccine does block disease so I’m not sure what you mean by saying it doesn’t. It is clearly not a 100% block in everyone (some poor immune response) but it does decrease transmission, and infected individuals that are vaccinated transmit less disease as a whole. There are exceptions, and typically those with poor immune response. There aren’t really any vaccines that block disease 100%, which is why the CDC felt the need to change their definition of a vaccine. People see the word “immunity” and think it means 100% protection. Anyone that draws titers on incoming med and nursing students know very well that immunity wanes over time, and is not black and white “immune or not immune”. Delta transmissibility definitely upped the ante for covid as it will find more hosts that have lower titers. The number of people without sufficient immunity is still way too high to expect this to go away anytime soon. I do believe you will see far less breakthrough infections in those that have boosters in the next 6-8 months. Same for those with breakthrough and new infections, which is robust right now.

    Escape variants will continue worldwide however until we have equitable distribution.

  4. #6194
    Junior Lloyd Braun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by principal View Post
    When you tell people who test positive for Covid to go home and wait until they can’t breathe and then head to the hospital, that tends to result in an increase in the number of hospitalizations.
    This is off base… feel free to expand on this.

  5. #6195
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    Phony Fauci dismissed masks in 2019 as a "paranoid" tool.

    https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...paranoid-tool/

    White House medical adviser Anthony Fauci once dismissed wearing a mask to prevent infectious disease as a “paranoid” tool, laughing at the prospect during a 2019 sit-down interview on The David Rubenstein Show.

    During the interview, which aired May 22, 2019, nearly a year before the Chinese coronavirus pandemic hit, Rubenstein and Fauci discussed infectious diseases, vaccines, and measures of protection to prevent illness. At the end of the interview, Rubenstein asked the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases director to weigh in on the best way to protect oneself from infectious disease.

    “And the best way to prevent me from getting an infectious disease and having to have you as my doctor is what? Wearing a mask — ” he began, triggering a quick dismissal from Fauci.

    “No, no, no,” Fauci said, letting out a laugh.

    “I don’t need to do that,” Rubenstein said following Fauci’s reaction. “If somebody’s– I can see they’re getting ready to sneeze or cough, walk away?”

    “You avoid all the paranoid aspects and do something positive,” Fauci responded
    , seemingly categorizing mask-wearing as a tool of the “paranoid.”

    “A. Good diet. B. You don’t smoke, I know. I know you don’t drink. At least not very much, so that’s pretty good. Get some exercise. I know that you don’t get as much exercise as you should,” Fauci continued.

    “Get good sleep. I think the normal, low tech healthy things are the best things you can do, David, to stay healthy,” Fauci added.
    Biden wants to mandate Americans get vaccinated, but won't do the same for the thousands of migrants coming into the country...

    https://www.breitbart.com/border/202...t-bridge-camp/

    Val Verde County Sheriff Joe Frank Martinez says the Biden administration is not testing any of the nearly 10,000 migrants being held in a makeshift border camp for COVID or anything else. He said they are alone at the border dealing with a national issue.

    “Nobody is being tested for anything,” Sheriff Martinez told reporters during an interview near the Del Rio International Bridge where the Biden administration is holding nearly 10,000 migrants.

  6. #6196
    Supporting Member noteggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd Braun View Post
    I’m not sure on reporting of hospitalizations. Perhaps they are over reported? I couldn’t find anything in this particular study that was referenced that the hospitalizations in the data collected were the same hospitalizations reported. Accessing electronic health records and filtering out data is fairly complex. For instance, here is a direct quote from the study in the methods section:

    “All inpatient admissions to a Veterans Affairs (VA) hospital between 3/1/2020-6/30/2021 with a laboratory-confirmed diagnosis of SARS-CoV-2 up to 14 days prior to or during the admission were included, and data were extracted electronically from the VA Corporate Data Warehouse.”

    How do we know which hospitalizations the VA reported? Perhaps they are reported perhaps they are not. The intent of the study is really good, and I agree that if someone is in the hospital for a presurgical procedure and tests positive it shouldn’t count as a hospitalization. I know that the two hospitals systems I have seen reports on behind the scenes do not report these as hospitalizations. They strictly report those hospitalized due to covid or complications from covid. The ICU data is particularly helpful when evaluating disease severity and burden. I’m not sure people really pay attention to it as much as covid deaths as it stands. My original point however was people such as Muskie in Dayton taking this data and interpreting it as “hospitalizations are over reported”. Are we really trying to diminish the effects this virus has at this point? The author of the Atlantic article is far from “left-leaning” as well and as always with the media (on both sides) there is an agenda that does not have the public’s best interest.

    Regarding eradication, I still believe it is theoretically possible, just not practical in reality. The vaccine does block disease so I’m not sure what you mean by saying it doesn’t. It is clearly not a 100% block in everyone (some poor immune response) but it does decrease transmission, and infected individuals that are vaccinated transmit less disease as a whole. There are exceptions, and typically those with poor immune response. There aren’t really any vaccines that block disease 100%, which is why the CDC felt the need to change their definition of a vaccine. People see the word “immunity” and think it means 100% protection. Anyone that draws titers on incoming med and nursing students know very well that immunity wanes over time, and is not black and white “immune or not immune”. Delta transmissibility definitely upped the ante for covid as it will find more hosts that have lower titers. The number of people without sufficient immunity is still way too high to expect this to go away anytime soon. I do believe you will see far less breakthrough infections in those that have boosters in the next 6-8 months. Same for those with breakthrough and new infections, which is robust right now.

    Escape variants will continue worldwide however until we have equitable distribution.
    My apologies on the blocking thing. Guess I did accidentally leave out one big word before it - complete. Probably would’ve helped my point be more coherent and factual haha.

    This goes back to my earlier post because it was driving me crazy people were comparing the vaccines to others. If I remember correctly, they had high hopes for sterilizing (not get or transmit and yes I know it’s a debated term because nothing like you described is 100%) vaccine vs effective immunity.
    It did a great block in the lower respiratory system, but breakthroughs were seen in upper early on as your know.

    Yea the term immunity has taken on a life of its own and don’t have a problem having the CDC changing their definition. Can’t blame people though because immune does mean resistant to disease. This goes back to another point from my earlier post, the medical community should have done a better job sharing their early findings and tempered expectations of vaccine.

    Won’t get any arguments from me on waning effectiveness of the vaccine since I made a similar point a couple of months ago lol.

  7. #6197
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    Lloyd I'm not trying to "diminish the effects of the virus". I'm calling a spade a spade. These metrics are used to make policy decisions - and as we have seen, very poor and destructive decisions. Yes, the cases, hospitalizations, and deaths are overreported, and the reasons stated in the article are not the only reasons. It's your opinion that calling out the overcount does not have the public's best interest at heart; my opinion is that those complicit to the overcount do not have the public's best interest at heart. Making this pandemic seem worse than it is is downright destructive.

    As to your statement about the vaccine blocking the disease, you really need to look again. Real world data are showing more and more that the vaccinated are carrying higher viral loads than the unvaccinated, while showing mild or no symptoms. This preprint just came out today also showing this: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....31.21261387v4

    I'm not concluding anything. But my curiosity is up. If this is happening, we sure need to recognize it.

    By the way, you're not supposed to capitalize dayton when referencing me. Or ever for that matter. ;-)
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  8. #6198
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    Quote Originally Posted by noteggs View Post
    My apologies on the blocking thing. Guess I did accidentally leave out one big word before it - complete. Probably would’ve helped my point be more coherent and factual haha.

    This goes back to my earlier post because it was driving me crazy people were comparing the vaccines to others. If I remember correctly, they had high hopes for sterilizing (not get or transmit and yes I know it’s a debated term because nothing like you described is 100%) vaccine vs effective immunity.
    It did a great block in the lower respiratory system, but breakthroughs were seen in upper early on as your know.

    Yea the term immunity has taken on a life of its own and don’t have a problem having the CDC changing their definition. Can’t blame people though because immune does mean resistant to disease. This goes back to another point from my earlier post, the medical community should have done a better job sharing their early findings and tempered expectations of vaccine.

    Won’t get any arguments from me on waning effectiveness of the vaccine since I made a similar point a couple of months ago lol.
    Yes, but:
    - Walenski did state back in March that the vaccinated were shown to not be carrying the virus. So that expectation was set, and many still believe that to be the case.
    - You have to admit the optics of changing the definition are very poor.
    "...treat 'em with respect, or get out of the Gym!"

  9. #6199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xville View Post
    What do you believe that they believe about this?
    Well, that's pretty general. I could write something so long even Snipe (where the heck is he by the way?) would be proud. I've posted here enough (more than enough actually), that it's on the record, but if there's something in particular I'm happy to entertain.
    "...treat 'em with respect, or get out of the Gym!"

  10. #6200
    Junior Lloyd Braun's Avatar
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    Well, I questioned whether the media has the public’s best interest at heart. If you look at the data the overcount is made by the authors of the study. We don’t know if these were reported hospitalizations or not. Maybe they are and maybe they aren’t but the source of the data was the electronic records of the VA system, not health department records of hospitalizations.

    The study you referenced regarding viral load is not new and I thought maybe you posted it before? Regardless it does not address transmissibility. Cycle threshold as I’m sure you are aware does not necessarily correlate with transmissibility.

    How about real world data on vaccinated vs unvaccinated transmission? It is out there, here is one recently released.

    https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2106757

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