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Thread: Covid-19

  1. #5471
    Junior Lloyd Braun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muskie in dayton View Post
    I don't know who he is either but he's very pragmatic. I agree with just about everything he says. An important implication of what he presents is that cases shouldn't matter in themselves. It's about who is getting them - for the young and the vaccinated, this is about as dangerous as a common cold.

    The only area where he missed the mark is his attribution of the seasonality to human behavior - it's 100% viral behavior, just like the flu. Another example where we humans think we can control everything, but we cannot. Especially not an airborne respiratory virus.
    Can you extrapolate on this? I tend to think both are major factors as we’ve seen human behavior directly affect transmission.

  2. #5472
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    CDC Director Admits Claim That Over 99% of In-Hospital Covid Deaths Were Among Unvaccinated People Was A Lie:
    https://www.informationliberation.com/?id=62442

    The real number per leaked CDC data was 15% in May (and the trend appeared to be rising)!

    OK data from last week shows that 24% of hospitalizations are vaccinated people: https://twitter.com/AlexBerenson/sta...415559/photo/1

    Quit pretending that vaccines are completely safe and will completely protect you. The real question, and this is a very simple question, why does the CDC have to lie about this?

    https://twitter.com/AlexBerenson/sta...48001961070595

  3. #5473
    Supporting Member boozehound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muskie in dayton View Post
    Curious, who do you consider to be the “anti-vaxers”?
    Mostly people who don't get vaccinated, and then spend a lot of time (usually on the internet) persuading others not to get vaccinated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd Braun View Post
    Why didn’t they question previous vaccines? Because they were children or because it was the norm. It is recommended that those 65+ get a pneumococcal vaccine. That rate is decreasing because people are starting to question every vaccine when presented with a chance to get it. There’s nothing wrong with questioning it, but there are fallouts now that wouldn’t have occurred before and there will be an increase in these types of diseases in the future.
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Brew View Post
    Maybe a better job could be done of explaining the individual risks instead of collective benefits would help? Possibly listening to and not dismissing concerns?
    The problem is that there is an online ecosystem some people choose to live in that sows constant skepticism of vaccines, and perhaps more importantly, the source of any information that is pro-vacccine. It's like a religion. If you believe vaccines are bad, and you also believe that any source of information that tells you to get vaccinated is lying, you will never be persuaded to take the vaccine regardless of data available, because you aren't actually doing any factual analysis. Taken on the merit of the factual data available everyone except for possibly the under 30's with no co-morbidities should probably get the vaccine.

    Also - the collective benefit is also the individual benefit. The disease goes away and you don't risk dying from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Brew View Post
    Could be people are skeptical overall as this is the first vax I’m aware of that carries, get it or else while still not fully approved?
    So like 2 months when the vaccine has full FDA approval most of these people will be fine getting it?
    Eat Donuts!

  4. #5474
    Quote Originally Posted by Muskie in dayton View Post
    I don't know who he is either but he's very pragmatic. I agree with just about everything he says. An important implication of what he presents is that cases shouldn't matter in themselves. It's about who is getting them - for the young and the vaccinated, this is about as dangerous as a common cold.

    The only area where he missed the mark is his attribution of the seasonality to human behavior - it's 100% viral behavior, just like the flu. Another example where we humans think we can control everything, but we cannot. Especially not an airborne respiratory virus.
    Sorry, my post was in response to what someone else posted and I accidentally responded here. I will repost.

  5. #5475
    Quote Originally Posted by boozehound View Post
    Mostly people who don't get vaccinated, and then spend a lot of time (usually on the internet) persuading others not to get vaccinated.





    The problem is that there is an online ecosystem some people choose to live in that sows constant skepticism of vaccines, and perhaps more importantly, the source of any information that is pro-vacccine. It's like a religion. If you believe vaccines are bad, and you also believe that any source of information that tells you to get vaccinated is lying, you will never be persuaded to take the vaccine regardless of data available, because you aren't actually doing any factual analysis. Taken on the merit of the factual data available everyone except for possibly the under 30's with no co-morbidities should probably get the vaccine.

    Also - the collective benefit is also the individual benefit. The disease goes away and you don't risk dying from it.



    So like 2 months when the vaccine has full FDA approval most of these people will be fine getting it?
    Your thoughts on this video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUPD0W71iMc

    Lloyd: I would be interested in hearing your thoughts as well.

    Regardless of the facts of the matter, I like what someone said in the comments - the fact that the arguments presented here are never addressed plays a large role in why so many do not trust the government and media. When they are addressed, the arguments are generally filled with ad hominem attacks, quotes repeated from news stories that couldn't be verified in the first place, and other sources that have little credibility. If honest discussion was being had we might all end up with the truth, but honest discussion is not being had. That this does not concern the vast majority of people is far more concerning to me than which position you take regarding vaccines.

    Principal

  6. #5476
    Supporting Member boozehound's Avatar
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    This is a great example of the point I was making around people choosing to believe people who sow doubt and skepticism.

    First of all - This appears to be a video from a school board meeting in rural Indiana of one individual Doctor lecturing the school board with an opinion that he states as fact. Why do you assume that what he is saying is true and accurately represented? Is it because he says he is a Doctor? Why do you believe this one Doctor over the thousands of other Doctors saying that complete opposite? There is nothing scientific about this. It's just poking holes in existing theory, which you can do all day long.

    He then goes on to state that he has treated 15(?) COVID-19 patients with Ivermectin and Zinc and that they haven't had to go to the hospital as supporting fact. He states, without evidence, that the vaccine will somehow make COVID-19 worse. Based on his sample size of 15 patients.

    So - on one hand you can believe the entire medical community including the CDC, and the rest of the developed world's health care communities. You can believe the data from vaccine clinical trials. But instead you choose to believe this guy who is telling you to take Zinc and a non-FDA Approved treatment for parasitic worms that is predominantly used in animals. Do you really think he has stumbled upon the 'solution' for COVID based on his 15 patients that he has treated, that somehow the whole world has missed.

    The reason this 'isn't being discussed' is because they aren't credible refutations of the existing scientific evidence, and it would be impossible for the CDC and FDA to address every baseless claim that someone makes at a school board meeting.
    Eat Donuts!

  7. #5477
    Hall of Famer xu82's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boozehound View Post
    This is a great example of the point I was making around people choosing to believe people who sow doubt and skepticism.

    First of all - This appears to be a video from a school board meeting in rural Indiana of one individual Doctor lecturing the school board with an opinion that he states as fact. Why do you assume that what he is saying is true and accurately represented? Is it because he says he is a Doctor? Why do you believe this one Doctor over the thousands of other Doctors saying that complete opposite? There is nothing scientific about this. It's just poking holes in existing theory, which you can do all day long.

    He then goes on to state that he has treated 15(?) COVID-19 patients with Ivermectin and Zinc and that they haven't had to go to the hospital as supporting fact. He states, without evidence, that the vaccine will somehow make COVID-19 worse. Based on his sample size of 15 patients.

    So - on one hand you can believe the entire medical community including the CDC, and the rest of the developed world's health care communities. You can believe the data from vaccine clinical trials. But instead you choose to believe this guy who is telling you to take Zinc and a non-FDA Approved treatment for parasitic worms that is predominantly used in animals. Do you really think he has stumbled upon the 'solution' for COVID based on his 15 patients that he has treated, that somehow the whole world has missed.

    The reason this 'isn't being discussed' is because they aren't credible refutations of the existing scientific evidence, and it would be impossible for the CDC and FDA to address every baseless claim that someone makes at a school board meeting.
    BUT….he wore suspenders so he’s smarter than all the other doctors. No bow tie, so he MAY be fallible, however.

  8. #5478
    Junior Lloyd Braun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by principal View Post
    Your thoughts on this video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUPD0W71iMc

    Lloyd: I would be interested in hearing your thoughts as well.

    Regardless of the facts of the matter, I like what someone said in the comments - the fact that the arguments presented here are never addressed plays a large role in why so many do not trust the government and media. When they are addressed, the arguments are generally filled with ad hominem attacks, quotes repeated from news stories that couldn't be verified in the first place, and other sources that have little credibility. If honest discussion was being had we might all end up with the truth, but honest discussion is not being had. That this does not concern the vast majority of people is far more concerning to me than which position you take regarding vaccines.

    Principal
    I mostly echo boozehound’s thoughts as this doctor presents a lot of misinformation in rapid fire succession. The video has been removed, but I watched it while it was up. There is some value with functional medicine vs traditional medicine in certain scenarios so I don’t want to say his opinion is not valuable because he is a functional medicine doctor. However he argues that the vaccine has somehow promoted spreading, and one piece of evidence for that is that it is spreading in summer months in spite of everyone’s vitamin D levels being higher. While there is some data to support vitamin D for covid prevention, there are a million other factors for contracting covid.

    And yes, 15 patients is hardly a high enough number to have to say something works. Hospitalization rate is MAYBE 1/15 in high risk individuals so that part made me chuckle. For comparison at the local hospitals I have affiliation there have been about 400 monoclonal antibody infusions done and have had less than 10 hospitalizations in high risk individuals that received treatment in the first 7 days of symptoms. That’s a 70% reduction in hospitalizations and none of the patients died. That is why we give the monoclonal antibodies and not ivermectin.

    Again, there is a role for functional medicine, it does promote healthy lifestyle which can prevent a lot of chronic conditions.

  9. #5479
    Supporting Member GIMMFD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boozehound View Post
    This is a great example of the point I was making around people choosing to believe people who sow doubt and skepticism.

    First of all - This appears to be a video from a school board meeting in rural Indiana of one individual Doctor lecturing the school board with an opinion that he states as fact. Why do you assume that what he is saying is true and accurately represented? Is it because he says he is a Doctor? Why do you believe this one Doctor over the thousands of other Doctors saying that complete opposite? There is nothing scientific about this. It's just poking holes in existing theory, which you can do all day long.

    He then goes on to state that he has treated 15(?) COVID-19 patients with Ivermectin and Zinc and that they haven't had to go to the hospital as supporting fact. He states, without evidence, that the vaccine will somehow make COVID-19 worse. Based on his sample size of 15 patients.

    So - on one hand you can believe the entire medical community including the CDC, and the rest of the developed world's health care communities. You can believe the data from vaccine clinical trials. But instead you choose to believe this guy who is telling you to take Zinc and a non-FDA Approved treatment for parasitic worms that is predominantly used in animals. Do you really think he has stumbled upon the 'solution' for COVID based on his 15 patients that he has treated, that somehow the whole world has missed.

    The reason this 'isn't being discussed' is because they aren't credible refutations of the existing scientific evidence, and it would be impossible for the CDC and FDA to address every baseless claim that someone makes at a school board meeting.
    Also to add to this, here's a good summary of the whole Ivermectin debacle: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02081-w

  10. #5480
    Hall of Famer xu82's Avatar
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    All those people clapping for the Doc didn’t follow the science, but they were pretty sure they were hearing what they wanted to hear. And THAT is how it too often works.

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