View Poll Results: Should we have a Wall?

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  • Yes

    22 56.41%
  • No

    17 43.59%
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Thread: The Wall

  1. #111
    President Snipe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xville View Post
    So, Trump of course is overestimating but within this article there is a number; 54 billion dollars spent on Illegal Immigration. Let's say that number is even high...let's cut it in half for sake of argument. 27 billion spent on illegal immigration...this is after tax contributions.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/don...ca-not-n950981

    So tell me again how 5 billion dollars is such a big number relative to what the US spends every year. I think there could potentially be a large ROI here....
    We can get a huge return on investment, but it will be unequally shared. The main benefactors would be working class Americans.

    I like the Federation for American Immigration Reform. They are a partisan group, and they want less immigration.

    Their 2017 estimate is that illegal immigration is costing US taxpayers 116 billion per year. There are other estimates, like the one you said was 54 billion.

    Partisan groups have motives and biases, but they also have a need to have credibility. Do I know who is right? No.

    I found one estimate that says that immigration is a net benefit of 35 billion dollars a year. I guess they could be right too. But as I said, it is important to see who gets the benefit and who pays the cost.

    Herbert Grubel: The true cost of immigration


    Do immigrants place an undue burden on our society, or are they a vital component of our economy? Discussions about the effects of mass immigration are becoming increasingly more evidence-based and reliant on widely accepted economic theory. The theory, known as the migration effect, implies that migrants moving from low- to high-income countries increase their own incomes, as well as those of the populations where they settle.

    This theory has been subjected to numerous empirical investigations. George Borjas, who teaches migration economics at Harvard, reviewed the available evidence and concluded that immigrants raise the national income of the United States by $1.6-trillion annually. Of this, $1.565-trillion goes to immigrants themselves, in the form of wages and benefits. The remaining $35-billion represents the migration effect and goes to the native population.

    Standard economic theory also tells us that the increased supply of labour caused by mass immigration depresses wages and raises the incomes of employers. According to Borjas, the annual incomes of U.S. workers are reduced by $400-billion due to the influx of new workers. But employers’ incomes increase by $435-billion, thanks to the lower cost of labour. The $35-billion in benefits from the migration effect all goes to employers.

    That turns my stomach. Employers benefit 435 billion because of low wages, our native population of working class Americans offset that 435 billion dollar gain by receiving $400 billion in lower wages. It is a wealth transfer from the working class to the rich.


    That $400 billion figure is more important that if it costs the country 100 billion or if we actually have a net gain of 35 billion.

    As I have said, the people paying the cost are not the same people getting the benefits.

    We have destroyed the American working class so that rich White Americans can have servants, people to mow their lawn, clean their toilets and be their Nannys. It has hit the Black community disproportionately. I care more about Black Americans that poor people in the third world.

    What we have done is wrong. And the people who do it pride themselves on their moral superiority. They get the benefits, and the loss is taken by the working class right on the chin. And if you don't agree with them you are a racist. They have destroyed the working class, and then castigated the losers for being bigots. All so they can have servants. The people that aid and abet this cause may not even know it, but they are doing and have done profound damage to American minorities and the working class as a whole. Yet I am the racist.
    RIP Brian Dargin McCormick

  2. #112
    Voice of Reason Masterofreality's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snipe View Post
    We can get a huge return on investment, but it will be unequally shared. The main benefactors would be working class Americans.

    I like the Federation for American Immigration Reform. They are a partisan group, and they want less immigration.

    Their 2017 estimate is that illegal immigration is costing US taxpayers 116 billion per year. There are other estimates, like the one you said was 54 billion.

    Partisan groups have motives and biases, but they also have a need to have credibility. Do I know who is right? No.

    I found one estimate that says that immigration is a net benefit of 35 billion dollars a year. I guess they could be right too. But as I said, it is important to see who gets the benefit and who pays the cost.

    Herbert Grubel: The true cost of immigration





    That turns my stomach. Employers benefit 435 billion because of low wages, our native population of working class Americans offset that 435 billion dollar gain by receiving $400 billion in lower wages. It is a wealth transfer from the working class to the rich.


    That $400 billion figure is more important that if it costs the country 100 billion or if we actually have a net gain of 35 billion.

    As I have said, the people paying the cost are not the same people getting the benefits.

    We have destroyed the American working class so that rich White Americans can have servants, people to mow their lawn, clean their toilets and be their Nannys. It has hit the Black community disproportionately. I care more about Black Americans that poor people in the third world.

    What we have done is wrong. And the people who do it pride themselves on their moral superiority. They get the benefits, and the loss is taken by the working class right on the chin. And if you don't agree with them you are a racist. They have destroyed the working class, and then castigated the losers for being bigots. All so they can have servants. The people that aid and abet this cause may not even know it, but they are doing and have done profound damage to American minorities and the working class as a whole. Yet I am the racist.
    This is a fantastic post with incredible solid evidence and studies. But, I guess those who hate facts, will continue to hate, dismiss and demean.
    "I Got CHAMPIONS in that Lockerroom!" -Stanley Burrell

  3. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Snipe View Post
    We can get a huge return on investment, but it will be unequally shared. The main benefactors would be working class Americans.

    I like the Federation for American Immigration Reform. They are a partisan group, and they want less immigration.

    Their 2017 estimate is that illegal immigration is costing US taxpayers 116 billion per year. There are other estimates, like the one you said was 54 billion.

    Partisan groups have motives and biases, but they also have a need to have credibility. Do I know who is right? No.

    I found one estimate that says that immigration is a net benefit of 35 billion dollars a year. I guess they could be right too. But as I said, it is important to see who gets the benefit and who pays the cost.

    Herbert Grubel: The true cost of immigration





    That turns my stomach. Employers benefit 435 billion because of low wages, our native population of working class Americans offset that 435 billion dollar gain by receiving $400 billion in lower wages. It is a wealth transfer from the working class to the rich.


    That $400 billion figure is more important that if it costs the country 100 billion or if we actually have a net gain of 35 billion.

    As I have said, the people paying the cost are not the same people getting the benefits.

    We have destroyed the American working class so that rich White Americans can have servants, people to mow their lawn, clean their toilets and be their Nannys. It has hit the Black community disproportionately. I care more about Black Americans that poor people in the third world.

    What we have done is wrong. And the people who do it pride themselves on their moral superiority. They get the benefits, and the loss is taken by the working class right on the chin. And if you don't agree with them you are a racist. They have destroyed the working class, and then castigated the losers for being bigots. All so they can have servants. The people that aid and abet this cause may not even know it, but they are doing and have done profound damage to American minorities and the working class as a whole. Yet I am the racist.
    To call FAIR a partisan group insults actual partisan groups. They are a hate group founded by white supremacists incorporating their ideals. They have been labeled a hate group by the SPLC and anything quoted by them should be ignored. But hey, if you love Trump maybe their KKK ideals are your cup of tea.

  4. #114
    Voice of Reason Masterofreality's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArizonaXUGrad View Post
    To call FAIR a partisan group insults actual partisan groups. They are a hate group founded by white supremacists incorporating their ideals. They have been labeled a hate group by the SPLC and anything quoted by them should be ignored. But hey, if you love Trump maybe their KKK ideals are your cup of tea.
    so, what say you about Harvard's Borjas' figures? Are you calling an academic, partisan and racist??? Is he part of a hate group...or just someone with actual facts that trash your leftist view? I would guess that Harvard University would dispute your characterization.

    Judging by usual positions, I'm sure that Borjas was just merely trying to dump all over big money employers for taking advantage of this deplorable situation, but what he actually does is prove Snipe's and the current administrations point. You can't have it both ways. A wall protects the lower worker class.

    "According to Borjas, the annual incomes of U.S. workers are reduced by $400-billion due to the influx of new workers. But employers’ incomes increase by $435-billion, thanks to the lower cost of labour. The $35-billion in benefits from the migration effect all goes to employers"
    "I Got CHAMPIONS in that Lockerroom!" -Stanley Burrell

  5. #115
    Hall of Famer GoMuskies's Avatar
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    The SPLC is hate group.

  6. #116
    Sophomore Caf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snipe View Post
    That turns my stomach. Employers benefit 435 billion because of low wages, our native population of working class Americans offset that 435 billion dollar gain by receiving $400 billion in lower wages. It is a wealth transfer from the working class to the rich.
    The dynamics of cheap immigrant labor are undeniable, but there's more to it than you mention. It also keeps prices lower for consumers. It's the same story with outsourcing jobs abroad. Undocumented workers are also employed by companies other than powerful elite corporations.

    I just don't get how you see this problem with employers and then lump the blame on the immigrants.

  7. #117
    President Snipe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArizonaXUGrad View Post
    To call FAIR a partisan group insults actual partisan groups. They are a hate group founded by white supremacists incorporating their ideals. They have been labeled a hate group by the SPLC and anything quoted by them should be ignored. But hey, if you love Trump maybe their KKK ideals are your cup of tea.
    Orange Man Bad! Orange Man Bad!

    Surprised you couldn't work Hitler into the mix. You really add so much to the discussion. You literally didn't know the definition of an immigrant, but Everyone that doesn't agree with me is a fascist!

    ORANGE MAN BAD!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Masterofreality View Post
    so, what say you about Harvard's Borjas' figures? Are you calling an academic, partisan and racist??? Is he part of a hate group...or just someone with actual facts that trash your leftist view? I would guess that Harvard University would dispute your characterization.

    Judging by usual positions, I'm sure that Borjas was just merely trying to dump all over big money employers for taking advantage of this deplorable situation, but what he actually does is prove Snipe's and the current administrations point. You can't have it both ways. A wall protects the lower worker class.

    "According to Borjas, the annual incomes of U.S. workers are reduced by $400-billion due to the influx of new workers. But employers’ incomes increase by $435-billion, thanks to the lower cost of labour. The $35-billion in benefits from the migration effect all goes to employers"
    That is the point isn't it? And all he can do is respond "ORANGE MAN BAD!"

    Quote Originally Posted by GoMuskies View Post
    The SPLC is hate group.
    I whole heartedly agree with that take. They are as intolerant as they come.
    RIP Brian Dargin McCormick

  8. #118
    President Snipe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caf View Post
    The dynamics of cheap immigrant labor are undeniable, but there's more to it than you mention. It also keeps prices lower for consumers. It's the same story with outsourcing jobs abroad. Undocumented workers are also employed by companies other than powerful elite corporations.

    I just don't get how you see this problem with employers and then lump the blame on the immigrants.
    I see the problem with employers. I have pointed it out repeatedly on this thread. I would like e-verify to become the law.

    The whole system is rigged. In the example I cited it talked about a $435 Billion gain to employers and a $400 billion dollar hit to the wages of working class Americans.

    Now who do you think has political power? The people that just gained $435 have a vested monetary interest in continuing the practice. They have the gains. They even now have extra piles of cash lying around to throw at politicians. In comparison, who much political power to working class Americans have? In this case slim to none, or they never would have allowed it in the first place.

    The people in power who claim they are for the poor have been exploiting them for decades. I am speaking Truth to Power. I don't blame low skill people in poverty for wanting to come to America and undercut our working class for wages. They have good reasons for wanting to come to America. But more people would like to come to America world wide than we already have living here as Americans. It isn't sustainable, and it is not possible to accommodate them all and still have something that resembles America.

    I think in the short run I have probably benefited from immigration. Cheaper roof work on buildings, cheaper produce and meats.

    I think if we limit immigration I will pay more for those goods. I will be a net loser. I am willing to do it though because I do care about working class Americans.

    You used to be a meat cutter and put a kid through college. It is a shitty job, but it paid well because people didn't want to do it. Now we have immigrant labor it is still a shitty job, but it also has shitty pay. If I have to pay more so be it. We need a strong working class.
    RIP Brian Dargin McCormick

  9. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by GoMuskies View Post
    The SPLC is hate group.
    Are you saying FAIR wasn't founded by white supremacists. It was, but hey head in the sand as I say. I haven't given any time to Borjas. I can't comment on his work.

  10. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Snipe View Post
    I see the problem with employers. I have pointed it out repeatedly on this thread. I would like e-verify to become the law.

    The whole system is rigged. In the example I cited it talked about a $435 Billion gain to employers and a $400 billion dollar hit to the wages of working class Americans.

    Now who do you think has political power? The people that just gained $435 have a vested monetary interest in continuing the practice. They have the gains. They even now have extra piles of cash lying around to throw at politicians. In comparison, who much political power to working class Americans have? In this case slim to none, or they never would have allowed it in the first place.

    The people in power who claim they are for the poor have been exploiting them for decades. I am speaking Truth to Power. I don't blame low skill people in poverty for wanting to come to America and undercut our working class for wages. They have good reasons for wanting to come to America. But more people would like to come to America world wide than we already have living here as Americans. It isn't sustainable, and it is not possible to accommodate them all and still have something that resembles America.

    I think in the short run I have probably benefited from immigration. Cheaper roof work on buildings, cheaper produce and meats.

    I think if we limit immigration I will pay more for those goods. I will be a net loser. I am willing to do it though because I do care about working class Americans.

    You used to be a meat cutter and put a kid through college. It is a shitty job, but it paid well because people didn't want to do it. Now we have immigrant labor it is still a shitty job, but it also has shitty pay. If I have to pay more so be it. We need a strong working class.
    You and the rest want to build a massive wall at great cost, time, and opportunity cost. Which would be easier; build your bridge to nowhere, force e-verify and penalize employers that hire illegally? Laws in some municipalities and states already have employer sanction laws that aren't enforced. Like it or not, the infrastructure is already in place to enforce laws against employers, yet it's not even in the national conversation. The boondoggle of the wall is.

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