View Poll Results: Should we have a Wall?

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  • Yes

    20 54.05%
  • No

    17 45.95%
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Thread: The Wall

  1. #81
    Sophomore Caf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snipe View Post
    If Mexicans were so great, why is Mexico such a shitpile?
    American discourse on immigration is a rerun. People could and did say the same thing about every nationality that came here en masse. Mexico is a shitpile right now. Mexico is actually in crisis. The death and crime numbers are staggering. The corruption is deep and rampant. All that said, it makes at least as much sense to say the people fleeing said shitpile are those most likely to contribute to a functioning society.

    Maybe 10 or 20 years ago southern border immigration was solely about the wage disparity between Mexico and us. Stopping employers from hiring illegal immigrants won't stop it. These people are fleeing a crumbling society and death, just as my Irish ancestors did. You are not going to stop them. People take rafts from Cuba, they take rafts across the Mediterranean to escape the Middle East. The will to live is not going to be stopped by a wall.

    It’s a Crisis of Civilization in Mexico.’ 250,000 Dead. 37,400 Missing. - WSJ

    Have some faith in Western principles. They've gotten this country through much worse.

  2. #82
    Supporting Member Sonoran Desert Muskie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xubrew View Post

    The real shame of this is that no one has really asked any of the Border Agents what they think, and if they have, then they've been ignored. The thing is that they all seem to agree that a Great Wall of the United States across the entire border is a very bad idea
    .
    Doubtful. For the past 10+ years and virtually every single work day, I have dealt with Border Patrol officers and Homeland Security Investigations special agents in Arizona. Hundreds of them over the years. I have never asked all of them what their thoughts are about expanding the wall but 100% of them that have expressed an opinion are very “pro-wall.” These are the front line law enforcement officers, not Washington beauracrats.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Xville View Post
    And that 3 million are costing state and local governments a heck of a lot of money and in turn, us. Healthcare, education etc etc
    How much are those people feeding into the economy when they purchase goods, food, gasoline, rent? Kris Kobach from Kansas had a conservative think tank study illegal immigration before he wrote his employer sanctions law (which is stupid and never used). It listed out all those things that those 3M people use, but at the end of that report said that the economic gain and taxes paid from purchases of those people evened everything out.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonoran Desert Muskie View Post
    Doubtful. For the past 10+ years and virtually every single work day, I have dealt with Border Patrol officers and Homeland Security Investigations special agents in Arizona. Hundreds of them over the years. I have never asked all of them what their thoughts are about expanding the wall but 100% of them that have expressed an opinion are very “pro-wall.” These are the front line law enforcement officers, not Washington beauracrats.
    Every one of the patrol I know, which admittedly are Mexican American and Black, laugh at the wall. They tell me story upon story about tunnels, catapults, ladders, etc. One is now working for the county and words with a former DEA agent who laughs at it as well.

  5. #85
    Sophomore Caf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonoran Desert Muskie View Post
    These are the front line law enforcement officers, not Washington beauracrats.
    Here's a crazy thought: maybe the experience of border agents shouldn't guide our immigration policy.

  6. #86
    Hall of Famer paulxu's Avatar
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    How can it be a "national emergency" now...but not for the last 40 years?

    New data released by DHS show that Border Patrol arrests are at a 46-year low.
    https://www.npr.org/2017/12/05/56854...it-46-year-low

    Also, I must have been having a 3 year nightmare. I could have sworn I heard somebody say Mexico would pay for it.

    Trump, now: When during the campaign, I would say Mexico was going to pay for it … Obviously, I never said this, and I never meant they’re going to write out a check.
    Do you suppose he really believes he never said it? It may be right to worry about his mental stability.
    ...he went up late, and I was already up there.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caf View Post
    American discourse on immigration is a rerun. People could and did say the same thing about every nationality that came here en masse. Mexico is a shitpile right now. Mexico is actually in crisis. The death and crime numbers are staggering. The corruption is deep and rampant. All that said, it makes at least as much sense to say the people fleeing said shitpile are those most likely to contribute to a functioning society.

    Maybe 10 or 20 years ago southern border immigration was solely about the wage disparity between Mexico and us. Stopping employers from hiring illegal immigrants won't stop it. These people are fleeing a crumbling society and death, just as my Irish ancestors did. You are not going to stop them. People take rafts from Cuba, they take rafts across the Mediterranean to escape the Middle East. The will to live is not going to be stopped by a wall.

    It’s a Crisis of Civilization in Mexico.’ 250,000 Dead. 37,400 Missing. - WSJ

    Have some faith in Western principles. They've gotten this country through much worse.
    I am not sure the crisis of civilization in Mexico is where we should be looking for new recruits. I don't find it reassuring. I agree with you the place is not very nice. If it is a crisis of civilization in Mexico, who is to blame? Are Mexicans to blame? That is a trick question, the only acceptable answer is white supremacy.

    Suppose we could do a lab experiment. You could take Mexicans and give them their own country and natural resources. We could call that place something like "Mexico". Then we could check back in with them to see what kind of society they built. And we could judge that in comparison to other societies.

    While it wasn't done in a lab, there is a place called Mexico. Mexico is chock full of Mexicans. As you noted, it is a shithole. Who is to blame? Certainly can't be the Mexicans! I blame white supremacy.


    Mexicans aren't your Irish ancestors. We have had more immigrants from Mexico than Ireland. They have been coming her a long time. We fought a war with Mexico and took her territory. We inherited plenty of the people and they have been living here for many generations. New Mexico is chock full of new Mexicans. It is one of the poorest and least educated states. Despite the cultural similarity to Mexicans, immigrants tend to avoid it.


    But we have plenty of Mexicans in the country for generations. Anyone that wants to notice could look at their outcomes. They aren't all just off the boat. They are not your Irish ancestors.


    They have poor outcomes across generations and generations. Who is to blame for that? Again, the answer is more White Supremacy.
    RIP Brian Dargin McCormick

  8. #88
    President Snipe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArizonaXUGrad View Post
    How much are those people feeding into the economy when they purchase goods, food, gasoline, rent? Kris Kobach from Kansas had a conservative think tank study illegal immigration before he wrote his employer sanctions law (which is stupid and never used). It listed out all those things that those 3M people use, but at the end of that report said that the economic gain and taxes paid from purchases of those people evened everything out.
    I don't think that is true. I think that some immigrants have more costs than benefits.

    Not all immigrant groups are the same, not all use welfare at the same rate.

    Of huge importance is that every situation has pros and cons, costs and benefits.

    In immigration, the people bearing the cost most often are not the ones sharing in the benefits.

    You import millions of low skill uneducated Mexican peasants and it has costs and benefits.

    If you are looking for cheap labor, it is a huge benefit. Want a new roof or an addition to your home? You can likely benefit.

    But what if you are a roofer or a carpenter? Supply and demand are indeed a thing. You flood the zone with cheap labor and your working class takes in on the chin. Working class wages have hardly budged since they opened up the floodgates in 1965. It is not a coincidence. The black working class has been tremendously affected, but nobody really acknowledges this.

    So lets assume that your correct about everything "evened" out. Even if immigrants were a net plus to the economy, you would still have winners and losers. Companies that hire the cheap labor are winners. The rich are winners. They have more Mcmansions and nice little nannies for their children. The poor are losers. Harder to find affordable housing, stagnant wages, and schools filled with kids who don't even speak the language.

    And the people who have always claimed to champion the poor are all for it, and act like their are in fact no costs at all. It is a shitty system and it is broke. Our elites on both sides are complete failures.
    Last edited by Snipe; 01-10-2019 at 03:06 PM.
    RIP Brian Dargin McCormick

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Snipe View Post
    I don't think that is true. I think that some immigrants have more costs than benefits.

    Not all immigrant groups are the same, not all use welfare at the same rate.

    Of huge importance is that every situation has pros and cons, costs and benefits.

    In immigration, the people bearing the cost most often are not the ones sharing in the benefits.

    You import millions of low skill uneducated Mexican peasants and it has costs and benefits.

    If you are looking for cheap labor, it is a huge benefit. Want a new roof or an addition to your home? You can likely benefit.

    But what if you are a roofer or a carpenter? Supply and demand are indeed a thing. You flood the zone with cheap labor and your working class takes in on the chin. Working class wages have hardly budged since they opened up the floodgates in 1965. It is not a coincidence. The black working class has been tremendously affected, but nobody really acknowledges this.

    So lets assume that your correct about everything "evened" out. Even if immigrants were a net plus to the economy, you would still have winners and losers. Companies that hire the cheap labor are winners. The rich are winners. They have more Mcmansions and nice little nannies for their children. The poor are losers. Harder to find affordable housing, stagnant wages, and schools filled with kids who don't even speak the language.

    And the people who have always claimed to champion the poor are all for it, and act like their are in fact no costs at all. It is a shitty system and it is broke. Our elites on both sides are complete failures.
    I merely mentioned the study. Can you please write, illegal immigrants and not just immigrants and keep on the same topic. It is easier to debunk the myth that illegals are on welfare.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Snipe View Post
    I am not sure the crisis of civilization in Mexico is where we should be looking for new recruits. I don't find it reassuring. I agree with you the place is not very nice. If it is a crisis of civilization in Mexico, who is to blame? Are Mexicans to blame? That is a trick question, the only acceptable answer is white supremacy.

    Suppose we could do a lab experiment. You could take Mexicans and give them their own country and natural resources. We could call that place something like "Mexico". Then we could check back in with them to see what kind of society they built. And we could judge that in comparison to other societies.

    While it wasn't done in a lab, there is a place called Mexico. Mexico is chock full of Mexicans. As you noted, it is a shithole. Who is to blame? Certainly can't be the Mexicans! I blame white supremacy.


    Mexicans aren't your Irish ancestors. We have had more immigrants from Mexico than Ireland. They have been coming her a long time. We fought a war with Mexico and took her territory. We inherited plenty of the people and they have been living here for many generations. New Mexico is chock full of new Mexicans. It is one of the poorest and least educated states. Despite the cultural similarity to Mexicans, immigrants tend to avoid it.


    But we have plenty of Mexicans in the country for generations. Anyone that wants to notice could look at their outcomes. They aren't all just off the boat. They are not your Irish ancestors.


    They have poor outcomes across generations and generations. Who is to blame for that? Again, the answer is more White Supremacy.
    Google is your friend here and not sure if I used the correct search terms. Mexican Amount to about 36.3M people in the US, Irish Americans amount to about 34M people. Yes more, but really only 6% more.

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