Streetcar milestone set for Friday

[Juice]

true story....that's great that over the rhine "is revitalized." Even though it is still a sketchy part of town....newsflash just because you pretty something up doesn't mean that the people who are shooting each other just leave.

Anyways...it is nice that over the rhine is the new cool place to hang out and eat and drink etc, but now Mt. Adams is basically a ghost town....all that is happened is that some money got moved around from one area of the city to the other.

At first a lot of young African-Americans started hanging out in Mt. Adams but the residents didn't take too kindly to that "type" up there and requested an increased police presence. Now no one is up there.

So when does the street car get expanded up the hill to Mt. Adams to revitalize that area?

[Xville]

At first a lot of young African-Americans started hanging out in Mt. Adams but the residents didn't take too kindly to that "type" up there and requested an increased police presence. Now no one is up there.

So when does the street car get expanded up the hill to Mt. Adams to revitalize that area?

As soon as some politicians vow to "clean up the neighborhood." Then Mt. Adams will be the new hotness, and Over the Rhine can go back to the crime-ridden section of the city it is meant to be.

[fellahmuskie]

As soon as some politicians vow to "clean up the neighborhood." Then Mt. Adams will be the new hotness, and Over the Rhine can go back to the crime-ridden section of the city it is meant to be.

Based on the patterns I see in Cincy and elsewhere around the country, white middle-class people are moving back into the city. Poverty will gradually be pushed out as people fill in neighborhoods like OTR and Walnut Hills. It's great for somebody like me, but it's gonna suck for poor people who will be further from transportation and services. When P&G and Kroger invest hundreds upon hundreds of millions of dollars in this stuff, I don't see it being a flash in the pan. Hell, Cincinnati's population has grown in the last few years for the first time since like 1950.

[Xville]

Based on the patterns I see in Cincy and elsewhere around the country, white middle-class people are moving back into the city. Poverty will gradually be pushed out as people fill in neighborhoods like OTR and Walnut Hills. It's great for somebody like me, but it's gonna suck for poor people who will be further from transportation and services. When P&G and Kroger invest hundreds upon hundreds of millions of dollars in this stuff, I don't see it being a flash in the pan. Hell, Cincinnati's population has grown in the last few years for the first time since like 1950.

I'll believe that when I see it. Where is the poverty going to go? Mt. Adams? Over the Rhine being revitalized is really nice for the city in that its a historic area being reborn, but in reality its just lipstick on a pig because all thats happened is some money has been moved around and crimes will still exist. It's a good start but things need to be done to take care of the actual issues that led to over the rhine becoming the cesspool that it was. Otherwise, the cesspool and poverty will just move to a different area of town as you stated.

[fellahmuskie]

I think I pretty much agree with you 100% about poverty and crime. I think one positive for Cincinnati is that more educated young people are starting to stick around, but overall, little is being done to address the issues you point out.

In the next 10 years, I would see things getting worse in some West Side neighborhoods, maybe up in South Fairmont/English Woods/Millvale. I don't know Cincinnati that well yet, but I do expect that higher rents will start to displace people in OTR and Walnut Hills.

[chico]

The people that are investing in OTR lead me to believe that this is not some flash in the pan. This is something that has been building for a while and I really don't see it stopping. Try buying any properly between Central and Liberty - it's near impossible. And OTR is more than just entertainment - it's business and housing. People are moving downtown - there's a reason why many office buildings (Post & Times Star, 580, American Building to name a few) have gone to apartments. As for the current residents, they're likely being pushed north and west. But several of those properties sat vacant for quite a while.

I'm sure people will "re-discover" Mt. Adams when OTR gets a little too crowded, but I don't think anyone but the bar owners in Mt. Adams are hurting, and the bar scene is always cyclical. As long as the views don't magically disappear, property values in Mt. Adams will be just fine.

[fellahmuskie]

Really? Go down to the Banks right now and see how many empty restaurants there are. They are on the streetcar line too, and have the stadiums also. Nobody is jumping to fill in Toby Keith nor Johnny Rockets...they've been empty awhile now.

Once GE, the new apartments, hotel and streetcar are down there, I think those spots will fill up very quickly. There just aren't enough people down there outside of baseball and football games right now, but that is going to change very soon.

[Juice]

West side. I don't know if you can do it, but if you look at police and fire run numbers, they have increased incredibly on the West Side of town. District 2 is basically a war zone now. Engine 35 (or is it 24? I have forgotten to be honest) up in upper Price Hill are listed as like the 14th busiest fire companies in the nation. OTR has been gentrified, and the people pushed out have gone west.

Yup. Price Hill, Westwood, and Madison are war zones now. The crime simply moves. Problems aren't being solved, they are just being moved around and the only people benefiting are those at 3CDC.

[sirthought]

Response to some of the comments here:

- Crime happens and we deal with it no matter where it is. I never said it ended completely or anything about displacement not being evident. Quarterly police reports show crime has been greatly reduced in downtown and OTR. The rise in population and development has to be seen as a major factor in this. (And I feel the promise of the streetcar contributed to that.) But crime has trended down there for the past decade, so it could be lots of factors.

News stories on shootings are covered today with such sensationalism, any incident is considerably amplified. Overall crime is down here. Let's be glad such a key historic neighborhood in all of America is getting a better trend in that regard.

- _LH You are flat out wrong about the streetcar not spurring on development. Talk to Bobby Maly at Model Group about all of their investment in and around Findlay Market ($19million project in just one block). Talk to Paul Kitzmiller at CORE Resources (tens of projects there in the past 5 years—so busy they moved their HQ from suburbs to OTR). Or HGC Construction (building projects all over there like Taft Ale House). Good lord, they have been working nonstop and most of these projects wouldn't have had so much consideration had it not been for the streetcar coming. We'll see if the final impact really pans out.

And major business leaders setting up business accelerators like the Brandery and Cintrifuse could have picked lots of Cincinnati neighborhoods to set up their HQ. They chose a neighborhood that does have a dangerous reputation largely because it was in line to start having the sort of amenities that young tech entrepreneurs are looking for today — walkable neighborhoods, diverse population, access to public transportation.

I agree restaurants will come and go. It's one of the dumbest businesses to get into because it's so hard to last. But those are businesses that get quick ink now. It was one easy example from that day I posted. But if you speak with Bob Deck at 4 Entertainment Group about where they chose to build bars down there…each new spot is near the streetcar line. Many of the recent (and coming) restaurants are from owners who already have a business elsewhere in Cincinnati. If they wanted to invest in a new place, there are plenty of neighborhoods with real estate available, but OTR is where it's exploding and the streetcar is the key differential.

Plenty of other people setting up shop for design firms, construction, architecture, law, accountants and numerous other endeavors. It's going to be a hugely populated neighborhood compared to what it has been in recent decades.

- Xvile, I'm not worried about Mt. Adams. Why are you? No empty homes up there and still a great location near downtown! The bars and shops have plenty of customers just from who lives there, but that neighborhood was always meant to be more residential than a business hub.

- The streetcar should help business at the Banks, but the whole vibe there is completely different than OTR. It's very generic. They've had some bad luck with who they've picked to go in initially, but it doesn't help that it's so expensive just to set up shop. Kind of hard to build organically.

I am curious if the new hotel will improve convention business and provide a larger customer base seeking entertainment. I see the locals continuing to mostly go there for games and the park, not necessarily eat regularly. This summer I went down Smale Park every week during business daytime hours and it was surprisingly busy, but I don't know if people are dining at the Banks. I never do.



Still excited about this milestone today for the streetcar and looking forward to seeing the first train arive in a month or two.

[OH.X.MI]

Really? Go down to the Banks right now and see how many empty restaurants there are. They are on the streetcar line too, and have the stadiums also. Nobody is jumping to fill in Toby Keith nor Johnny Rockets...they've been empty awhile now.

But at the same time you've got to fight to get into Holy Grail, Tin Roof, and Jefferson Social on a weekend night. Maybe it's just that Toby Keith's and Johnny Rockets, and especially Mahogany's were shity establishments? Not every bar or restaurant is a success. Location plays a huge role, but establishments still have to provide good services.

I think that's the same problem with Mt. Adams. Bars up there haven't adapted to the "in scene." I don't think most young people want to listen to EDM and drink vodka red bull anymore. Of course, that means if the "scene" down at OTR fades away those bars/restaurants might too. Everything is cyclical in that industry.