Stain Train To the Nba ???

[waggy]

As I showed, he's already a great rebounder .

Where? On this board?

[vee4xu]

Jalen isn't even Derrick Brown at this point and Derrick struggled at the NBA level. So no to Jalen and no to Stain. Matt, nice kid, not NBA material.

[XUFan09]

Where? On this board?

1. Being ranked that high in rebounding rates is the sign of a great rebounder.
2. Being a comparatively above average rebounder next to power forwards drafted in the first round is a sign of a great rebounder.

Which premise do you disagree with?

[waggy]

1. Being ranked that high in rebounding rates is the sign of a great rebounder.
2. Being a comparatively above average rebounder next to power forwards drafted in the first round is a sign of a great rebounder.

Which premise do you disagree with?

That 160th in anything is "great". Or, if there are guys rated equally poor, but still get drafted, then there is something seriously wrong with the stats or the metric or even citing it.

I'll agree that rebounding won't really hurt or help Jalen in the draft. My view is the NBA doesn't draft "rebounders". But it hurts his team and he needs to be better. I'm not even sure Jalen is the best rebounder on his team. Not saying he isn't, but not saying he is either.

I don't buy that Jalen is a "great rebounder", and I don't think your stats show that he is. But I also don't have the benefit of that websites internals so my position could very well be ignorant.

[XUMIOH12]

somebody started a thread asking the exact same question last year...and the question is still just as dumb this year as last year

[XUFan09]

That 160th in anything is "great". Or, if there are guys rated equally poor, but still get drafted, then there is something seriously wrong with the stats or the metric or even citing it.

I'll agree that rebounding won't really hurt or help Jalen in the draft. My view is the NBA doesn't draft "rebounders". But it hurts his team and he needs to be better. I'm not even sure Jalen is the best rebounder on his team. Not saying he isn't, but not saying he is either.

I don't buy that Jalen is a "great rebounder", and I don't think your stats show that he is. But I also don't have the benefit of that websites internals so my position could very well be ignorant.

You're just undervaluing a top 200 ranking, so I'll put it into perspective with some other examples, because it's good-to-really-good. Kenpom ranks the top 500 of each statistic, while the number of D1 players playing enough minutes to be eligible runs in the thousands somewhere. You have to keep in mind that there's a lot of noise in these statistics, because of the drastic scheduling differences. A decent player in a weak conference can rack up good rankings, for unlike the general offensive and defensive efficiency numbers, Kenpom does not adjust these stats for strength of schedule (which is why he goes up to 500 in the first place). For example, the top 10 for defensive rebounding includes guys from Evansville, Ball State, Sam Houston State, and Quinnipiac. None of them play top 100 schedules.

- Trevon Bluiett's offensive rating is 116.1; there is no denying that that's a really good mark (D1 average is currently 101.4). He's only ranked 228th.
- The offense the last two years relied heavily on Semaj, but the percentage of the team's shots he took when on the floor was ranked 174th (2013) and 349th (2014).
- Dee last year was second in the Big East in assists/game, but his assist rate was 155th in the nation.
- Tu seemed to be one of the best in the country at drawing fouls, but his fouls drawn per 40 minutes was ranked 71st, when you think it would be much higher.

EDIT: So, between the 160th spot on the offensive end (good-to-really-good) and the 21st spot on the defensive end (outstanding), I'd average it out to "great' overall. I think Farr is actually the best rebounder on the team, though, which is unfortunate, because he's not bringing much else to the table right now. Stain is really good, but I'd put Reynolds ahead of him now, when I would have listed Reynolds #3 last season. By next season, I hope Reynolds has surpassed Farr.

[Xavier]

Jalen isn't even Derrick Brown at this point and Derrick struggled at the NBA level. So no to Jalen and no to Stain. Matt, nice kid, not NBA material.

Just two different types of players. I never thought Brown had the strength to play the 4 in the NBA (obviously he isn't a 3 either).

[waggy]

You're just undervaluing a top 200 ranking.

Ok so the metric starts to mean something once you throw out every player from a crappy conference?

On the flip side Jalen is usually going up against other guys coming off the bench. And when he is in with Stain, Stain often draws a double team on the offensive end, which should leave him with better opportunities if the shot is missed. But I don't know the specifics of what rebounding efficiency represents. So I went and looked at the X's season stats which is public record. Jalen is averaging less than 6 boards a game. Farr is actually averaging more, while playing fewer minutes. This is a great rebounder? He does lead the team in personal fouls though.

To be fair I think Jalen has had his moments where he has looked really good, even great on the boards. The team is going to need a lot of that coming down the stretch. And since it's energy/effort deal, he doesn't have to hardly think. Just go get the ball. I hope to eat my words that Jalen isn't a great rebounder.

[mid major]

I know people say Jalen plays with "a lot of emotion" but when you dunk on someone and stare down an opponent and get t'd up how does that not translate into a bonehead play? He just needs to play smarter. Screw all that macho stuff and just play smart basketball.

[XUFan09]

Ok so the metric starts to mean something once you throw out every player from a crappy conference?

On the flip side Jalen is usually going up against other guys coming off the bench. And when he is in with Stain, Stain often draws a double team on the offensive end, which should leave him with better opportunities if the shot is missed. But I don't know the specifics of what rebounding efficiency represents. So I went and looked at the X's season stats which is public record. Jalen is averaging less than 6 boards a game. Farr is actually averaging more, while playing fewer minutes. This is a great rebounder? He does lead the team in personal fouls though.

To be fair I think Jalen has had his moments where he has looked really good, even great on the boards. The team is going to need a lot of that coming down the stretch. And since it's energy/effort deal, he doesn't have to hardly think. Just go get the ball. I hope to eat my words that Jalen isn't a great rebounder.

Players who play weak schedules simply have inflated stats, though top 10 is still obviously great (I was just showing how the top 10 alone has multiple mid-major and low-major teams represented). Players who play tough schedules (including Xavier players) have deflated stats. You don't have to throw out the former players. The issue of schedule imbalance is just the rationale for why Ken Pomeroy extends his statistical ranking out to 500. Once you know a player is ranked in a category, you can then evaluate it up against the schedule strength he played with. It's simply more information to make a better judgment. A player ranked in the 400s in a statistical category? He could be good in that category. Or, he could just be above average. The SOS of his team has to be factored in.

I have never seen Ousmane Drame of Quinnipiac play, but he is ranked #7 in the country in defensive rebounding rate, two spots ahead of our very own James Farr and rebounding at practically the same rate. Just going off the numbers, are Drame and Farr on par in terms of their defensive rebounding abilities? It seems highly unlikely, as Quinnipiac has faced one of the easiest schedules in the nation (338th), while Xavier has faced one of the toughest schedules (9th). I still think Drame is great on the defensive glass, weak schedule or not, but I'd have to say that Farr is better.

Now, that's an obvious extreme, but a lot of it comes down to subjective judgment. The number one defensive rebounder (Egidijus Mockevicius) plays for Evansville (SOS #198). Reynolds has clearly faced a much tougher schedule than him, but it likely isn't enough to overcome the disparity in rate between them, 34.7% vs. 26.6%. I wouldn't even put Farr (28.5%) ahead of Mockevicius.

Also, starters aren't resting for extended periods such that you need "second units" like in the NBA. For most teams, once substitutions start happening, you have a mix of starters and bench players. For example, Xavier's most common lineup in the last five games (Dee, Myles, Remy, Trevon, Stain) I don't think has ever been the starting lineup. Despite being the most common lineup, it's still only appeared in 12.3% of minutes played in the last five games. Farr usually starts and Reynolds usually comes off the bench, but they're both playing just under half the game, enough time that they are regularly up against starters.

However, I'll give you the possibility that Stain's drawing of double teams could be contributing to Reynolds' opportunities for offensive rebounds. At least in the last five games, though, Reynolds has been paired with Stain for only about a third of his playing time (It's almost as common for him to be paired with Trevon). There are other on-court variables too, though: We don't have any good guard rebounders and our rebounding from the small-forward position is weak, especially on the offensive glass. On the one hand, these teammates aren't often going to "steal" rebounds from Reynolds, but on the other hand, they're not boxing out their own guys, making offensive rebounds harder in general. Stain and Farr's boxing out probably helps Reynolds, but the lack of consistent support from everyone else probably hurts him. It definitely hurts the team, which is always playing one and frequently two of Stain, Farr, and Reynolds but is currently ranked outside the top 100 in offensive rebounding and outside the top 50 in defensive rebounding.

By the way, I said that I think Farr is a better rebounder, so I don't know why you presented an argument as to why Farr is a better rebounder.