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  1. #11
    During my divorce, my ex-wife's mother wanted me to mail her a pillow case after she moved all of her daughter's stuff out of my house because it was part of a matching set.

    Not as bad but still ridiculous. In the end, I was out about 5k for family attorney fees and 5200 for a "house equalization" payment, whatever that crap means. Why it was her mother and not my ex-wife is a whole other long story.

    The final walkthrough of my house was almost like her mother shopping. She literally pointed at things and asked where and how I got them because she thought they were her daughter's. Oh yeah, I got yelled at when I put my ex-wife's car on the curb instead of in my garage.

  2. #12
    Supporting Member Emp's Avatar
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    My entire career focused on dispute resolution. If you want to see human greed at its worst, estate and will contests are the best/worst. I represented the Shriners hospitals in many challenges to bequests to the charity, and the behavior was incredible. Ditto trust fund "babies" in their 60s who have sat on their asses waiting for their parents to die.

    I refused to do divorce and custody cases, there is absolutely no chance that the client will be satisfied with the outcome or the fee. Any decent lawyer advises the client of the costs, emotional and financial, of fighting rather than compromising disputes over who gets what. Divorce clients are seldom thinking rationally, alas. They are angry, hurt, fearful at the other spouse, and absolutely certain they are getting screwed. That is not a problem with the law, it's a problem with the ability to accept and deal with loss, and move on.
    It's a still great day to be a Muskie, but a sad day to be a supporting member of this board.

  3. #13
    Supporting Member xudash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emp View Post
    My entire career focused on dispute resolution. If you want to see human greed at its worst, estate and will contests are the best/worst. I represented the Shriners hospitals in many challenges to bequests to the charity, and the behavior was incredible. Ditto trust fund "babies" in their 60s who have sat on their asses waiting for their parents to die.

    I refused to do divorce and custody cases, there is absolutely no chance that the client will be satisfied with the outcome or the fee. Any decent lawyer advises the client of the costs, emotional and financial, of fighting rather than compromising disputes over who gets what. Divorce clients are seldom thinking rationally, alas. They are angry, hurt, fearful at the other spouse, and absolutely certain they are getting screwed. That is not a problem with the law, it's a problem with the ability to accept and deal with loss, and move on.
    Very well put.
    X A V I E R

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Emp View Post
    I refused to do divorce and custody cases, there is absolutely no chance that the client will be satisfied with the outcome or the fee. Any decent lawyer advises the client of the costs, emotional and financial, of fighting rather than compromising disputes over who gets what. Divorce clients are seldom thinking rationally, alas. They are angry, hurt, fearful at the other spouse, and absolutely certain they are getting screwed. That is not a problem with the law, it's a problem with the ability to accept and deal with loss, and move on.
    Ain't that the truth.

    It's not a big deal, but the thing that still sticks with me is an attorney taking my client's deposition (in our nice carpeted conference room in a downtown office building) and throwing a John Kruk-sized lipper in and spitting (mostly) into a styrofoam cup for four hours. I have no moral objection to chewing tobacco but that was so random and off-putting.

    A divorce client once refused in open court to stipulate to the date of his marriage. I have never been angrier in my life.

  5. #15
    All-Conference Kahns Krazy's Avatar
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    Part of the problem is the lawyers. When Ex Mrs. Krazy and I split, we added up all of our assets and liabilities and put a chart together and divided it down the middle. (Our combined net worth was not worth fighting over). We were in 100% agreement, we just needed a lawyer to navigate us through the legal process of divorcing, quit claim deeds, etc. When the lawyer got involved, it got ugly. He insisted that we needed to back out our pre-wedding retirement funds, other crap that we had already settled on, include a bunch of value for our "stuff". Created a big f**king mess. I had to keep reminding my lawyer that my objective was to no longer be married, not to screw her over as hard as I was legally allowed to. Clearly, I was a disappointing client for my lawyer. I think he wanted me to attempt to profit from my divorce.

    My experience with marriage and divorce is why I wonder why gays are fighting so hard for this right. It sucks. You pay more in taxes, you have to get a lawyer involved to break up. Other than medical benefits, which is a questionable benefit and which some progressive companies are already dealing with, I can't think of a single benefit to being legally married that I can't get through some other mechanism.

    If I do get "married" again, it's going to be a non-legal ceremony, and my legal status will still be single. I can wear a ring and call a person my wife all day every day if that's what I choose, and 99% of the time, that will work for everyone involved.
    "Give a toast to my brother, hug your family, and do everything possible to live the life you dream of. God Bless."
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  6. #16
    Administrator xeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kahns Krazy View Post
    Part of the problem is the lawyers. When Ex Mrs. Krazy and I split, we added up all of our assets and liabilities and put a chart together and divided it down the middle. (Our combined net worth was not worth fighting over). We were in 100% agreement, we just needed a lawyer to navigate us through the legal process of divorcing, quit claim deeds, etc. When the lawyer got involved, it got ugly. He insisted that we needed to back out our pre-wedding retirement funds, other crap that we had already settled on, include a bunch of value for our "stuff". Created a big f**king mess. I had to keep reminding my lawyer that my objective was to no longer be married, not to screw her over as hard as I was legally allowed to. Clearly, I was a disappointing client for my lawyer. I think he wanted me to attempt to profit from my divorce.

    My experience with marriage and divorce is why I wonder why gays are fighting so hard for this right. It sucks. You pay more in taxes, you have to get a lawyer involved to break up. Other than medical benefits, which is a questionable benefit and which some progressive companies are already dealing with, I can't think of a single benefit to being legally married that I can't get through some other mechanism.

    If I do get "married" again, it's going to be a non-legal ceremony, and my legal status will still be single. I can wear a ring and call a person my wife all day every day if that's what I choose, and 99% of the time, that will work for everyone involved.
    Thanks for your (rambling) input, but this thread is for lawyers.

  7. #17
    Supporting Member muskienick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xeus View Post
    Thanks for your (rambling) input, but this thread is for lawyers.
    And, therefore, the best possible place for Kahns' comments. Seemingly, a decent number of them need to listen to a client instead of (or before) pontificating on what is best for her/him.

  8. #18
    All-Conference XU 87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kahns Krazy View Post
    Part of the problem is the lawyers. When Ex Mrs. Krazy and I split, we added up all of our assets and liabilities and put a chart together and divided it down the middle. (Our combined net worth was not worth fighting over). We were in 100% agreement, we just needed a lawyer to navigate us through the legal process of divorcing, quit claim deeds, etc. When the lawyer got involved, it got ugly. He insisted that we needed to back out our pre-wedding retirement funds, other crap that we had already settled on, include a bunch of value for our "stuff".
    Pre-wedding retirement funds are not marital assets and therefore the spouse keeps his/her respective funds as his/her own. Your lawyer would have committed malpractice if he didn't tell you of this rule.

    ("Keeps" should actually say "can legally keep")
    Last edited by XU 87; 05-06-2014 at 04:08 PM.

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by XU 87 View Post
    Pre-wedding retirement funds are not marital assets and therefore the spouse keeps his/her respective funds as his/her own. Your lawyer would have committed malpractice if he didn't tell you of this rule.
    Whenever you have a client that is wanting to waive their marital interest in their spouse's pension, I tell them they are entitled to half of what has accrued during the marriage; however, I tell them that my role in a dissolution is to inform them of their rights under the law, but ultimately, I will put their agreement in the proper legal format so that they can finalize their dissolution quickly. I then get them on the record at the hearing and state, "are you willing to waive your marital interest in Mr./Mrs. Pension Plan?" I then ask, "you understand that I have advised you that you have a right to one-half of the marital portion of the pension and you still wish to waive your interest?"

    Getting it on the record is the CYA I use. The scariest CYA issue is when unwed father go into Juvenile Court and waive genetic testing. I go into great detail on the record about how I have strongly advised them to get genetic testing and that they have chosen to go against my advice, waive genetic testing and acknowledge paternity. I never understand why unwed fathers don't go ahead with the genetic testing. You can't be with the mother of the child 24 hours a day. It can't hurt to be sure. I just don't want some former client coming to my office screaming that he has paid child support for 10 years and just found out the child's not his. And that has happened (not to me)....and there isn't a damn thing that can be done about it once you acknowledge paternity.

  10. #20
    Junior LadyMuskie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kahns Krazy View Post

    My experience with marriage and divorce is why I wonder why gays are fighting so hard for this right. It sucks. You pay more in taxes, you have to get a lawyer involved to break up. Other than medical benefits, which is a questionable benefit and which some progressive companies are already dealing with, I can't think of a single benefit to being legally married that I can't get through some other mechanism.

    If I do get "married" again, it's going to be a non-legal ceremony, and my legal status will still be single. I can wear a ring and call a person my wife all day every day if that's what I choose, and 99% of the time, that will work for everyone involved.
    In my experience, whether you're actually married or you're just living as a married couple, sharing in assets, buying expensive things together, having children together, etc., dividing all of that up is not going to be any less messy whether you're legally married or not. In fact, in order to protect yourself financially and when it comes to your children, being married is probably the better way to go. You have so many more rights as a spouse than you do as anything else. You'll also want to make sure you have legally created powers of attorney for financial affairs and for health care so that you and your girlfriend have rights in those areas. Otherwise, your next of kin (parents, or siblings) will be making all of those decisions, perhaps to the detriment of your significant other.

    For instance, when a relative of mine was hospitalized after falling in the bathroom and being found unconscious, her parents had all rights to medical decisions (including the birth of her baby which happened while she was unconscious). Her fiance lucked out that his future in-laws were gracious enough to defer to him, but he had zero rights to my relative or to her baby (which, of course, was also his child).

    These are the reasons that gays and lesbians want to be legally married. They want those rights without having to jump threw a million hoops to be recognized as the next kin of the person they love.
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