yay on the project, big nay to shut down after pumping millions and contractually committing many more millions.
Yes it's a big expenditure, but as a long time cincinnatian now looking at it from 1000 miles away. the hundreds of millions spent improving downtown over the past 2 decades have been well spent, the riverfront is awesome, downtown's business district is awesome, the arts district is awesome. extending the spending on more projects is a good idea. big cities need to keep pumping money, keep making improvements, keep changing to stay attractive to keep bringing people downtown, you can never just sit back and say ok,,, we're done.
View Poll Results: Yay or Nay on the Streetcar
- Voters
- 59. You may not vote on this poll
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Yes, I favor to continue the Cincinnati Streetcar project
28 47.46% -
No, I do not favor to continue the Cincinnati Streetcar project
31 52.54%
Results 21 to 30 of 781
Thread: Cincinnati Streetcar, Yay or Nay
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11-14-2013, 06:12 AM #21
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11-14-2013, 07:50 AM #22
Thor, I'm not sure exactly what the model is, but it's closer to 3CDC than privatization. The streetcar won't ever operate at a profit, just like the neighborhood roads, other public transportation, public safety services or city council itself never operates at a profit. The economic benefit comes from increased property values, incremental business revenue and net new residents paying income taxes in the city to support those services. I don't see how privatization could possibly work. Even more difficult because the asset itself will sit on public property.
Unlike the fountain square project, where the city was able to turn over a specific asset with revenue tied to the project (fountain square garage revenues), the impact of the streetcar will be wider, and less of it is currently controlled by the city.
One idea is to enter into agreements with private funding sources to turn over city owned property on the streetcar line when the streetcar is complete, and turn over the streetcar construction to those private funding sources. As 87 pointed out, there is millions of dollars in increased real estate value to be captured. Let's capture as much as we can and use it to offset the cost of building the streetcar.
I guess if I boil it down, my opinion is that I believe that a completed streetcar will provide a benefit in excess of the cost to the city of Cincinnati. I do not have as much faith in the city to execute on the construction plan as I would have in a for-profit group. We absolutely need some people with some skin in the game to manage the construction process.
And why why why why why haven't we hit the casino up for a huge chunk in exchange for running the route out by the casino. The streetcar should pass the casino. It's one of the more significant draws in the city (estimated 5-6 million annual visitors, double the Reds and Bengals combined). These are the kinds of decisions that I believe should be made by business people with skin in the game, not by amateur politicians.
I spend a lot of time in the area that the streetcar will (and already has) impact. Washington Park is an amazing transformation. The tap room at Moerlein is a phenomenal reuse of a historic space. The investments in new restaurants and residential space on Vine is amazing. What is really more amazing though is when you look at a map and you realize just how much of that space remains to be redeveloped. It is staggering. Lots of speculators are holding that property right now, looking to benefit when the streetcar is complete. If the project is cancelled, those speculators sell and get out, the demand drops, the residents that are there now can't sell for what they got in for, and the whole area sours.
Anyone who is in favor of cancelling the streetcar now should go back and read the history of the subway in Cincinnati. It's almost the identical story. Political power struggle led to the cancelling of the project, which is widely regarded as the reason that Cincinnati lost its growth momentum and has a small population today than in 1900.
Cincinnati is one of about 20 cities with a population over 100,000 that is still losing population. That puts us in some fine company with other hotbeds like Flit, Detroit, Rockford, Toledo, Patterson, Akron, Lansing and Mobile. That is not the company I want for my city. I want to be at the other end with Charlotte, Austin, Denver, Charleston, Atlanta, and other cities that."Give a toast to my brother, hug your family, and do everything possible to live the life you dream of. God Bless."
-Matt McCormick
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11-14-2013, 07:52 AM #23
Hey, all you have to do is turn the clock back 103 years. That's all
Walnut Street, 1910:
Cincinnati Walnut Street 1917.jpg"I Got CHAMPIONS in that Lockerroom!" -Stanley Burrell
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11-14-2013, 08:54 AM #24
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11-14-2013, 09:01 AM #25
Does anybody know what the actual savings would be if we cancelled the Streetcar at this point in the process?
How much of the money has already been spent? Quite a bit of work has already been done downtown. We aren't getting that money back if we cancel it. Even if you don't like the Streetcar if we have already spent (or committed to spend) $100MM of the $133MM cost (or whatever it is) then we might as well finish it at this point. If we are only $20MM into it we might want to discuss if it is worth finishing.Eat Donuts!
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11-14-2013, 09:06 AM #26
I think the benefits of the street car outweigh the expense. There are times you need to invest in the city to keep it viable and I see this as one of those opportunities. It is a damn shame the city couldn't think beyond the present 30 years ago. We have needed a more efficient mode of public transportation since the early 70's when Cincinnati was thriving with residents.
"All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz and I'm fine.--Jeff Spicoli"
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11-14-2013, 09:55 AM #27
I have vacillated quite a bit on whether or not I think the Streetcar is a good idea.
I would consider myself a proponent of downtown in general. I spend quite a bit of time downtown, and I enjoy it. I work downtown, and when I go out for dinner or drinks 90% of the time I go downtown. I tend to stick to places in the Central Business District or the Banks, though. As such I don't think I would use a Streetcar much. My biggest issue with OTR is that all the places there seem to be on a 2+ hour wait all the time, not necessarily the act of getting down there. I do want to hit up the Rhinegheist Tap Room soon, though.
I don't live in the City limits and can't vote, so my opinion doesn't really matter anyways.Eat Donuts!
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11-14-2013, 11:36 AM #28
By the time Cranley is sworn in, approximately 10% of Phase 1 would be completed. The exact numbers already being spent is an unknown, and the monies lost on cancelling the project is also an unknown. The overall cost for phase 1 is approximately $133 million dollars. Even if this phase is completed, there is no known source as of yet even being considered for phase 2, no less phase 3. Where are the funds going to come from? A tax increase, stealing money from road repair (both of which have happened for phase 1)
I am not completely against the streetcar, but I want the city to get out of the way, stop managing it as if you can just throw money at the problem, and let someone else run the financing and operations of it. If this is going to be such a great investment for business in the area, why not have them come forward to take it over? Where is the Chamber of Commerce on this?
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11-14-2013, 11:38 AM #29
I think the cost might be a tad too high, but I do see the value it starting to build up transportation options. We've been traveling lately and love the cities where we can easily access public transportation. Just got an Embassy Suites in Alexandria, Va cheaper because it is a short ride on the subway that drops us off at the Verizon Center for the X-GTown game. I would LOVE a light rail on the I-71 corridor from Kings Island to CVG....should have done this first!
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11-14-2013, 11:59 AM #30
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