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  1. #21
    Supporting Member DC Muskie's Avatar
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    That's not better brew. Even with a MAYBE thrown in front of it. That's what I am saying.

    The A10 is doing a good job with what they have to work with. But they are not adding programs that Xavier and Temple provide in terms of resources. At best the A10 maybe as good as it was back in say the early 2000's.
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  2. #22
    Supporting Member xubrew's Avatar
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    Last season, SLU got a #4 seed, VCU got a #5 seed and La Salle got a #11 seed. Three teams getting in without needing the automatic bid is a pretty good year by the old Atlantic Ten standards prior to Butler and VCU joining. Two teams getting seeded #5th or better almost never happened. In fact I can only think of one year when it did, and that was in 2003 when X got a #3 and UD got a #4.

    That is as good as the league normally was berore. Actually, it was a little better than the league normally was. I think they will continue to perform at that level, and I think Davidson is another good addition.

    2008 was Temple's first tournament appearance since 2001, and they needed to win the conference tournament to get it. Same with 2009. They've been good since then, but I wouldn't call them irreplaceable. They've won two NCAA tournament games since 2001.

    VCU will take over the flagship role, and be as nationally visible as Xavier was. They have a brand name, a great athletic department, and they've got Spike Lee traveling with the team (that really shouldn't mean anything, but it probably does). They are a good program that is turning into one of the biggest media darlings out there. As has been talked about and whined about at length around here, Xavier didn't really experience that to the degree that other programs have.
    Last edited by xubrew; 05-10-2013 at 02:54 PM.
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  3. #23
    Supporting Member DC Muskie's Avatar
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    And Temple has gone to the last six tournaments. Temple would have dominated the SoCon had they been a member.

    Part of the reason those teams got those seeds is because of the addition of Butler in the league.

    Again though I need to go back to the idea that I don't care about the A10. I will say that I will never ever agree with the idea that the A10 will be just as good or even better without Xavier, Butler and Temple in the mix.
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  4. #24
    Supporting Member xubrew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DC Muskie View Post
    And Temple has gone to the last six tournaments. Temple would have dominated the SoCon had they been a member.

    Part of the reason those teams got those seeds is because of the addition of Butler in the league.

    Again though I need to go back to the idea that I don't care about the A10. I will say that I will never ever agree with the idea that the A10 will be just as good or even better without Xavier, Butler and Temple in the mix.
    Butler was only in the mix for one year, and for the umpteenth time I'm talking about the way the league was before Butler joined it.

    I'm not saying that the Atlantic Ten wouldn't be better if it still had Butler, Xavier and Temple. Of course it would be. Butler was never there before, though, so saying the Atlantic Ten would be better if it still had Butler is kinda like saying it would be better if they had Duke. Of course it would be. But, they never had Butler before just like they never had Duke before, so referencing them is pointless.

    Moving forward, the A10 will have one flagship team that is often in the rankings and almost always in the tournament (VCU). It will have one, two, or maybe even three more teams in a position to make the tournament every year. I don't think it will be the same team every year because I don't think any of them are good enough to consistently produce tournament caliber teams, but I think almost all of them are good enough to occasionally produce a tournament caliber team. I could easily see Davidson, who this thread is about, being good enough to have a tournament team most of the time. Part of the reason Davidson didn't get better seeds in the past was because they were in the SoCon, which consists predominantly of sub top 200 teams.

    Prior to last season, the A10 had one flagship team that was often in the rankings and almost always in the tournament (Xavier). They also had one, two, and in a VERY good year three additional teams in a position to make the NCAA Tournament.

    So....exactly how is the league not at least as good as it was before??

    On top of that, of the three shittiest teams known to man (Fordham, La Salle, Duquesne), only one of them is still completely shitty. There isn't nearly as much deadweight was there was four or five years ago, although Rhody is doing their best to compensate for the improvement of La Salle.
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  5. #25
    Supporting Member DC Muskie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
    Butler was only in the mix for one year, and for the umpteenth time I'm talking about the way the league was before Butler joined it.
    Look, I'm not going to bother reading past this point.

    VCU doesn't get a 5th seed without Butler in this league. LaSalle might not have been in the tournament without beating Butler.

    VCU has been in the league one year, and you are projecting their role as the new Xavier. You point to the success of the seeds of the A10 in 2013, and you want to completely dismiss the fact that Butler helped the A10's over RPI.

    That's fine. Have at it. Just don't expect me to read the rest of your argument if it bothers you that I brought up Butler and what they did this past season.

    You can't have it both ways. Davidson is the new Temple, but it's the Temple of the past six years, not the Temple of the years between 2002-2007. LaSalle is good this year, but weren't before, but then UMass was good in 1996, as was GW....

    My head is going to explode.
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  6. #26
    Supporting Member xubrew's Avatar
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    VCU played Butler once at home. What seed do you think they would have gotten had they played George Mason or Davidson at home instead?? It may not have even made the difference of a seed line. VCU loses Troy Daniels, but they return everybody else that is worth a crap. They are going to be awesome next year. It's not that they got a #5 seed. It's that they got a #5 seed in a year that many were expecting to be a building year. To attribute how good they were last year to one home game against Butler is...well...insane. Treveon Graham was just a sophomore this past year. They're recruiting seems to be going pretty well too. They're not going to fall apart just because they don't get one game against Butler.

    Seriously, I get that I'm out on a limb with Davidson, but how in the hell could anyone say that VCU is not a rock solid program?? It's kind of like saying people typically eat lunch in the afternoon. It's hardly a bold prediction. It's an obvious observation.

    You were right about La Salle, though, I must admit. I said they were a #11, but they were actually a #13. Then again, they also played Butler just once at home, and Butler wasn't even at full strength, so they didn't get THAT much credit for it. Had they played Davidson or Mason at home, and not lost to Central Connecticut, their profile probably looks about the same. They also won at VCU and beat Villanova, but because they did lose to such a shit CCSU team, they probably did need that win against Butler.
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  7. #27
    Supporting Member paulxu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
    I could easily see Davidson, who this thread is about, being good enough to have a tournament team most of the time.
    I don't want in your argument. But I watched a lot of Davidson over the past 20 years as they come to Spartanburg to play Wofford.
    VERY well coached, a lot of fun to watch. And sometimes the SoCon has a good team every now and then (Wofford beating us at home?).
    But they are a notch below A10 caliber players, and need a Curry to even compete on a consistent basis. I think they will struggle for a while until their recruiting catches up to the St Louis, VCU or most of the other A10 teams.
    ...he went up late, and I was already up there.

  8. #28
    Supporting Member xubrew's Avatar
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    Paul, one of the reasons I argue is that it's more fun to argue about college basketball than it is to not have any discussions at all about college basketball.

    What I like about Davidson is the way they develop players, the way that they continue to push their profile (particularly with how well they schedule out of conference), the way that they have improved incrementally, and the fact that they've been so close the past two years.

    Since the Curry years, which I think we can all agree were a huge aberration of what is typical for them, they've been getting better and better each year, especially the last two years. That, and they've been SOOO close. Two years ago, they beat Kansas in Kansas City, and seemed to be in a position to get an at-large bid, but then lost two crap games in conference, and it knocked them down several seed lines. They ended up having to play Louisville, who was a #4 seed, and who was as hot as anyone in the country. Davidson actually played them close. Had they not blown the games in conference play, they probably get a better seed and it is a winnable game. For that matter, had they played as well as they did against any other #4 seed, they probably win. Lastly, if they didn't have so many conference games against sub 200 teams, their RPI is better, they get a better seed, and have a better chance of winning.

    This past year, the completely blew it against Marquette. I mean...WOW, it was an epic meltdown. In addition to going ice cold in the final minutes after shooting the ball well all year, they turned it over three times in the last ninety seconds and blew a seven point lead (or whatever it was) in less than a minute. They also blew what appeared to be a comfortable lead out in New Mexico earlier in the year. If they hang on to win at New Mexico, they probably get a better seed and end up winning. Had they not blown it against Marquette, they would have probably beaten Butler because that Davidson team was a nightmare matchup for them. So, I can't help but think that they just missed the Sweet Sixteen this past year.

    With better consistent competition throughout the regular season, and more opportunities, I think it will be easier for them to break through. To play so many sub 200 teams with one or two shots at a top ten team, that's a hard way to get noticed. To play the majority of your games against the top 100, and get more chances at tournament caliber teams who aren't completely overwhelming, I can see them taking off.

    They do lose three starters, but they had eight guys that saw contributing minutes a year ago. They always go eight or nine deep, they always seem to produce an experienced lineup even when they lose starters, and for the past three years they seem to be getting better with each cycle. That's what I like about them. It's not a sure thing. I get that I'm out on a limb. But, those are the indicators that have me thinking they can be a solid program and do very well in the Atlantic Ten.

    As for VCU, a Final Four, followed by an equally as good (and probably better) overall season the next year that ended with a missed last second shot against Indiana that would have sent them to the Sweet Sixteen, followed by what everyone thought was going to be a rebuilding year, but ended up being a top 25 finish, followed by having four starters coming back next year with good recruits on the way after that, I don't think it's too outrageous to think they're a very solid program that appears to keep getting better, and can carry the Atlantic Ten as well as Xavier did. I really think next year's VCU team is going to make people sick because the media will be kissing their ass and hyping them up all year. But, media attention aside, they are going to be VERY good.
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  9. #29
    Supporting Member GoMuskies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulxu View Post
    But they are a notch below A10 caliber players,
    I just don't see that. I heard a lot of talk about Butler and VCU not being ready to compete for the A-10 title because they didn't yet have "A-10 caliber players" early this year, too (not necessarily from you), and I knew that was a load of crap. The fact is, A-10 players aren't much different than SoCon players. The average A-10 player is better than the average SoCon player, sure, but Davidson doesn't have the average SoCon player. They have superior SoCon players. I think if you take the Davidson teams from the last ten years and put them in the A-10, they finish in the top half of the league virtually every year.

  10. #30
    Supporting Member paulxu's Avatar
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    Well, all I have is a bunch of impressions from seeing them up close in what amounts to a high school gym atmosphere.
    Yes, they play good, well coached/executed team ball...and obviously excel when they get a Curry.
    But they don't play A10 level competition night in, night out. They go off every now and then (like Wofford at X) but it's my impression they couldn't handle that on a consistent basis yet.
    They are not Butler and VCU; not even close.
    ...he went up late, and I was already up there.

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