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  1. #71
    Supporting Member DC Muskie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmcrawfo View Post
    And... you would be exactly right. People don't look at college as an investment, but as a right-of-passage in many cases. That is one reason why so many leave with a less-then-useful skill set and poor return of investment vs. other choices they could have made.
    Kevin and Booz, since you both appear to be well versed on the motivation and skill set of millions of people who attend and graduate college, could you give us the percentage of people that would be better served becoming plumbers, electrician or some other grease monkey?

    Is there a site or a statistic I can read and become more knowledgeable on these people?

    Also, I could have sworn listening to the Dean all those years ago, he said colleges are not in the business of providing skills in order to get a proper return on that investment but rather a place where you learn the fundamentals of being a better educated person. Sounds like more of a right of passage sort of thing, but I could have heard him wrong since Kevin is telling he is saying the same thing.

    Greatly appreciated guys.
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  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by DC Muskie View Post
    Kevin and Booz, since you both appear to be well versed on the motivation and skill set of millions of people who attend and graduate college, could you give us the percentage of people that would be better served becoming plumbers, electrician or some other grease monkey?

    Is there a site or a statistic I can read and become more knowledgeable on these people?

    Also, I could have sworn listening to the Dean all those years ago, he said colleges are not in the business of providing skills in order to get a proper return on that investment but rather a place where you learn the fundamentals of being a better educated person. Sounds like more of a right of passage sort of thing, but I could have heard him wrong since Kevin is telling he is saying the same thing.

    Greatly appreciated guys.
    I'll simply close my participation in this thread with the fact that you just don't get it. You don't understand the difference of investing $40,000 to become a high school english teacher vs. $150,000. Do you really think there is enough discrepancy in earning power from the $150,000 degree to warrant such a difference?

    I am building a new home and my plumber is being paid over 100k for his portion of the project. He is not a grease monkey. He drives a BMW and lives in a home in excess of 500k. No college. Is this for everyone, of course not. However, it is proof that with hard work and appropriate training there are many skill that can earn a good living without $100k of debt. An IT degree can be obtained with excellent computer skills at a nearby college while living at home. Good job. Good pay. Limited debt.

    College is great for anyone who elects to go. What an individual needs to evaluate is how likely am I to get a job with this degree, how much will I likely make, and how much will it cost. With certain fields of training/education it is easier, more reasonable to absorb high training/education costs. Others it is not.

    You seem to have a complete inability to analytically approach something? You seem to take 1 line/thought out of an entire thread/post and reply to it and miss the entire message. I really don't understand how is this such a tough concept to understand.

    That is all from me....
    Last edited by kmcrawfo; 09-30-2012 at 11:50 AM.

  3. #73
    Supporting Member DC Muskie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmcrawfo View Post
    I'll simply close my participation in this thread with the fact that you just don't get it. You don't understand the difference of investing $40,000 to become a high school english teacher vs. $150,000. Do you really think there is enough discrepancy in earning power from the $150,000 degree to warrant such a difference?

    I am building a new home and my plumber is being paid over 100k for his portion of the project. He is not a grease monkey. He drives a BMW and lives in a home in excess of 500k. No college. Is this for everyone, of course not. However, it is proof that with hard work and appropriate training there are many skill that can earn a good living without $100k of debt. An IT degree can be obtained with excellent computer skills at a nearby college while living at home. Good job. Good pay. Limited debt.

    College is great for anyone who elects to go. What an individual needs to evaluate is how likely am I to get a job with this degree, how much will I likely make, and how much will it cost. With certain fields of training/education it is easier, more reasonable to absorb high training/education costs. Others it is not.

    You seem to have a complete inability to analytically approach something? You seem to take 1 line/thought out of an entire thread/post and reply to it and miss the entire message. I really don't understand how is this such a tough concept to understand.

    That is all from me....
    Again thank you for the lesson. Good luck with the house!

    I wish I could understand what the percentages are so I can get properly upset. But I am learning. Maybe if I just make sweeping observations or something like that. OR maybe I should go off and hang out with your plumber in nowhere Indiana and really understand how college works.

    Is there a way you can get this message out to the 18 year olds who really don't understand the investment they are making? I'll help out and go back to my high school and tell all of those teachers who have degrees from expensive colleges how silly their investment was because they probably weren't able to pay it off in a timely manner.

    I look back at all the loans I took and I am KICKING myself for not knowing I should have chosen to Kent State or Wright State. Or anything with "State" in the name. Why on earth did I decide to go Xavier? I'm no doctor, and I thought I had a pretty good life.

    I now get what college is all about. I owe it to you! I hope kyxu and REALDEAL are reading this. We could really be on to something here!
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  4. #74
    Supporting Member boozehound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DC Muskie View Post
    Kevin and Booz, since you both appear to be well versed on the motivation and skill set of millions of people who attend and graduate college, could you give us the percentage of people that would be better served becoming plumbers, electrician or some other grease monkey?

    Is there a site or a statistic I can read and become more knowledgeable on these people?

    Also, I could have sworn listening to the Dean all those years ago, he said colleges are not in the business of providing skills in order to get a proper return on that investment but rather a place where you learn the fundamentals of being a better educated person. Sounds like more of a right of passage sort of thing, but I could have heard him wrong since Kevin is telling he is saying the same thing.

    Greatly appreciated guys.
    First of all I don't think either Kevin or myself were trying to be dismissive or derisive towards skilled laborers which feels to me like what you are implying with the term 'grease monkey'.

    Plumbers, electricians, auto mechanics, construction workers, etc. all can make a very good living. If they decided to start their own business they can make a great living. Those are essential jobs that do not require a college education and provide a direct and tangible benefit to society. They fix cars, build roads, and ensure that we have power and water. There's nothing wrong with what they do and they aren't necessarily 'grease monkeys'.

    I also would not be surprised that a Dean at a college was pontificating about his uber-expensive private school 'teaching people how to think'. I would be encouraging people not to worry about the return on their investment either if my livelihoold was based on it. I have rarely found academic people to be very in touch with the real world. I'm sure in his view an expensive college education is a 'rite of passage' but that's not necessarily true for the average person. It's easy to blow hard about that kind of crap from your post as Dean of Boston College but when you are working landscaping with $30K in student loan debt for your 'rite of passage' you probably feel a bit differently about it. You also probably would have been better off learning a skilled trade or doing something that you have a natural aptitude for and that provides a value to others such that they are willing to pay you for said skills or services.

    Bottom line is that if you want to go to an expensive school have at it, but don't expect to have your loans forgiven. I just think that it is irresponsible for guidance counselors, teachers, etc. not to be realistic with 18 year olds about the costs and benefits of their college choice. Most of those kids aren't thinking that far ahead.
    Last edited by boozehound; 10-01-2012 at 11:46 AM.
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  5. #75
    Supporting Member DC Muskie's Avatar
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    I'm actually well aware of the life of skilled labor. My family was in the construction business for decades, my first job was actually sweeping out houses as a teenager. I've helped put together more cars than I like to count. And I suck working on cars.

    I'm talking about kids who you guys have seemed to paint into a corner that they should develop a trade. I don't know anyone who went to college only to turn around and become an electrician. I don't know anyone who goes on to do trade work who attends college.

    That's what I'm trying to understand, the scope of the number of people who would get their loans forgiven and who they are. Why can't we drill down to that so I can know how pissed off I should be? I read today in the paper that about 9% of graduates who had loan payments due in 2011 were behind in payments. Surely that all can't be pointed to choosing the wrong field of work.

    Also, I find it hilarious that you would defend a system of higher education and then turn around and dismiss the people who work for it as "out of touch." You seem to think that "grease monkey" is a pejorative term. Maybe you are out of touch.
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  6. #76
    Supporting Member GuyFawkes38's Avatar
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    I am too lazy and tired to read this entire thread.

    But one thing to note is that part of the reason college is so expensive is because of the subsidization of student debt. In a weird sort of way, the subsidization helps colleges more than students.
    "I am at this moment writing a lengthy indictment against our century. When my brain begins to reel from my literary labors, I make an occasional cheese dip."

  7. #77
    Sophomore CinciX12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blueblob06 View Post
    My wife and I have several loans from going to Xavier. Even though we owe lots of money, my initial thought is that the government should not do loan forgieness.

    Our loans are all for 10 years, i.e. 120 payments each. On the loan companies' websites we've noticed that you can apply for loan forgiveness if you meet certain terms and have paid at least 120 payments toward your loan. This 2012 Act also only comes into fruition once you have made 120 loan payments. So, the criteria seems like those who set up to pay their loans off in only 10 years are not eligible while those who set it up to pay over 20, 30, etc. years would be. I don't quite understand that. I (and my wife) thought it'd be best to try to get the loans knocked out as quickly as possible but seems like those in the same boat as us who may only be paying 1/2 the amount we are each month because they're in a 20 year loan might be done in 10 years as well if they are forgiven what they owe once year 11 starts. Doesn't seem fair but then again life isn't fair I guess.
    What you are describing is what I refer to as 'total BS'.

    But I am choosing to not be raped by paying 2x to 3x the interest on the loan, so mine are still over 10 years.
    Xavier university. Founded and still living in 1831.

  8. #78
    All-Conference Kahns Krazy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFawkes38 View Post
    I am too lazy and tired to read this entire thread.

    But one thing to note is that part of the reason college is so expensive is because of the subsidization of student debt. In a weird sort of way, the subsidization helps colleges more than students.
    Exactly. There is nothing more destructive to the market price mechanism than taking the cost out of the equation for the end user.

    See also: healthcare.

    Subsidizing the cost of college on a variable per-user basis does nothing to benefit society as a whole.
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