I would need to hear Snipe's opinion first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lloyd Braun
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I would need to hear Snipe's opinion first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lloyd Braun
My two cents on this great Javits Center debate, while trying to keep out politics. At first Javits was setup as a non-Covid facility. The goal changed to take care of convalescent patients, not newly admitted with Covid. So you can throw that 11 day average stay out the window.
Can’t really say how many of the 1,100 patients there were treated actually had Covid. Even though seemingly under utilized, I’m glad NY had this facility and the USNS Comfort available to fall back on.
Will you wait up until 4:00 am for guidance, or just wake up early?Quote:
Originally Posted by GoMuskies
Fair and reasonable. After reading/watching several articles and accounts on this today it seems that the vast majority were COVID patients after April 2. By size alone it could house several thousand patients, so no matter what the number treated was it would be underutilized. No matter how you slice it 1100 patients is a lot and impactful. Tip of the cap to the military medical providers that completed that mission.Quote:
Originally Posted by noteggs
This Covid deal is depressing. While you guys were talking back and forth, I'm watching the nightly news.
Reports now that the antibodies after you get it, might just go away in time...so having the herd develop immunity could be dicey.
Hope we can get a good vaccine, and soon.
Can't believe there are so many people against a vaccine. We've eradicated smallpox and almost polio. And people don't want a vaccine.
Who needs vaccines.....essential oils, it's all about the essential oils!!Quote:
Originally Posted by paulxu
Yeah but seriously, how anti-vaxxers have so many supporters is beyond me. Read about the people pushing this movement. The only reason people who don't vaccinate their kids are able to do that is because luckily the vast majority still do. No one should be allowed to send their kids to public school without vaccinating their kids. No non medical exemptions should be allowed.
The anit-vaxxers are a small fringe of ill-informed people (IMO). A COVID vaccine would be wonderful but what are the chances of it happening when you see there is no true vaccine for the seasonal flu, the common cold or HIV.
And back to the shifting and unreliable numbers:
Not all of the data behind the seven metrics are publicly available, clearly presented or easy to understand. The Enquirer requested data on each metric for Southwest Ohio's three red counties Friday.
A spokeswoman directed reporters to online profiles, which contain some but not all of the requested data. Profiles are not available for the 76 counties that aren’t currently red.
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/new...ng/5412718002/
How do we know asymptomatic cases aren’t false positives?
Shower thought... but seriously?
This is a good question. I know several younger people who work for me that have recently tested positive. Not a single one ever felt sick in any way. Fact of the matter is, is that we have 9,000 deaths under the age of 55 out of 330,000,000 people. Protect the older and vulnerable and get on with life in my opinion. Wear a mask and practice good hygiene. We won’t ever have a full proof vaccine but if we get one that helps, that’s all good too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskie in dayton
Trump got the China travel ban right but he and his administration have failed just as miserably in many other areas just like the democrats. In regard to PPE, Kushner gave contracts to a republican lobbyist who started a company in February to take advantage of the shortage of PPE. The contracts were vastly inflated, the lobbyist did not have credible contacts/ manufacturers that could meet the dates he promised and the contracts were ultimately pulled. My company and many others stepped in as a result. The swamp is still full. Trump is no different than any other politician, he does what he thinks will get him re-elected and plays solely to his base.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterofreality
Our system is broken, we need some adults who are interested in and capable of solving problems.
A COVID vaccine will likely be effective because it apparently mutates at a much slower rate than influenza and HIV. There are over 200 viruses known to cause the common cold so a vaccine for that (not to mention complications from a cold are rarely fatal) would not be comparable. At worst, a vaccine would convert this to an upper respiratory infection and significantly slow spreading (like a cold). At best, eradication. FWIW I’ve heard there’s a chance we have a booster vaccine every 6-12 months until this is gone.Quote:
Originally Posted by murray87
Talk about "reading comprehension issues". Stop deferring Lloyd. 6,000 unneeded Nursing Home Deaths is reason enough to hate on him after his "3A" order to send infected patients back in to them. If that is flawed logic, then I'm not sure what logic is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lloyd Braun
You made this discussion more political and this latest kerfluffle began when you felt the need to break into an exchange between me and X-Man on your post 2422 where you said my statement was false and had to call the numbers in the Republican states I showed as a "very bad trend". I showed you real factual numbers in post 2430 that showed that what I stated was correct and showed updated TODAY numbers. Then in 2431, you defend Cuomo (so much for not "caring about Cuomo) and New York by excusing their lousy record because "of course" and then undermining Ohio's results by the "trending poorly" statement. Meanwhile, you try to keep the veil up of objectivity in post 2437 about how "equally critical" you are. Total BS based upon your own writings. I call those lies.
Every report from any source has stated clearly that Javitts and the Comfort ship were "underutilized". Javitts had 1100 patients TOTAL in over 30 days with a bed capacity of 1900. If the average stay was 11 days it sure would seem that it would have been more full at times- especially when other New York hospitals were breathlessly shown to be panicked and overrun. You have stated numerous times that in your view the Federal Government f-ed up their response and I'm showing you that they did not-evidence underutilized beds in the biggest hotspot in the US. BTW, you never addressed or denied my statistics in my post 2430 so I can only assume your "false" statement was a false accusation and a lie as well.
Stop with your veiled (not so anymore) political leanings, get off your high horse and just come out with who you really support so we can all take your alleged "medical expertise" through the filter that we need to put it through. I'm clear in my leanings. New York State f-ed up while Cuomo gets a puff-piece chance to crow on Jimmy Fallon last night. What a disgusting and disingenuous exhibition. Meanwhile Ohio is doing just fine on latest trends below the 7 day average on hospitalizations, ICU's and deaths, despite your dire criticisms.
MOR- I don’t reply to every stat you post because when I do reply with hard data you discard it. It’s pointless to go back and forth because you and I will never see eye to eye on this. You take any counterpoint as a threat to your intelligence. You side with Trump 100% of the time and when you repeat a lie he has stated it makes you a liar. History will not be kind to a lot of his words and actions. Your loyalty and dedication to the party is quite pathetic, and I fail to see any original thought. Just regurgitated word vomit from fake news. It’s like you incessantly poke at a topic with bs until the other person stops replying to your insanity and then claim victory in argument. I have read your posts for almost what, 20 years now on various platforms and I used to find you entertaining. Now, perhaps senile.
Regarding Ohio, where did I say it was dire? I said “trending poorly” which we are. We are at the highest 7-day hospitalization rate since April 15. Does that mean “dire” situation? No, but if that trend continues you can forget about schools going back, which would be a real shame. You can pick one day’s hospitalizations and say we are fine but look at the trend. It’s almost as silly as you reporting snow in Cleveland in May to disprove global warming.
I hope you’re right, but I’ve read 4 different articles now about how a safe and effective vaccine is unlikely. It has become clear that only the most severe cases trigger the body to produce the one antibody that persists (IgG). That means any vaccine would need to trigger IgG response, which is harder and more risky (as I understand).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lloyd Braun
I’m not trying to be a Debbie downer, but if we won’t have a safe and effective vaccine, the sooner we can acknowledge this, the better.
That is a very interesting problem, if true, because it changes how we must approach solving this problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskie in dayton
If there's never going to be a safe and effective vaccine...I'm not sure what you do. Basically ignore it and let it run its course? That's obviously a shitty option, but I'm not sure every other option wouldn't be worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by muskiefan82
I think that’s why yesterdays news was so big, that 100% of the individuals in the phase 1 trial had IgG response to the vaccine. Here’s the dataQuote:
Originally Posted by Muskie in dayton
Except you never did. Yup, pointless, when YOU have no point that you can make. And thanks for the "senile" reference, when you can't even respond without, now name calling and reckless finger pointing. That, for sure is the mark of someone who is left of center. Don't dispute with facts, just name call, correct?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lloyd Braun
Point out please, where I've allegedly "repeated Trump's lies". History will be what it is. And I didn't vote for Trump, but the Libertarian candidate Gary Johnson, the Governor of New Mexico. Uh, I also voted for Obama in 2008 and there is a Readers Digest article about me and others like me to prove it. See, I'm not some brainwashed lemming follower of some failed philosophy, but open to good thoughts where ever they come from. But you just keep on being you with your political tunnel vision fashioned, I'm sure by the Cuyahoga Socialist State. I'm sure you voted for piker Armond Budish too, rather than an accomplished guy, Jack Schrom, who should have gotten the job. Pull that party line!!
You have now checked all of the lib boxes. We now know where you come from so we can now be wary of all of your ponderous proclamations
Congratulations on your "wokeness" Lloyd. Hope the system that we have all grown up with isn't destroyed through it.
“Point out please, where I've allegedly "repeated Trump's lies". Ok the most recent example (there are plenty in the other politics thread)- This article was written 3 weeks ago, referencing Trumps remarks that the Javitts and Comfort were “barely used” and you stated almost word for word the exact same thing. When I came back with data that contradicts that (1100 patients is beyond barely) you then used the convention centers capacity, which realistically was closer to 3000 and not 1900, to state it was barely used because they COULD have squeezed more than 1100 people in the 4 weeks they treated COVID patients. Trump lied to attack Cuomo. You reiterated that lie. Because “barely” is a subjective term that generates opinion instead of something objective, you will continue to claim 1100 patients in 4 weeks meets that criteria.
Also I didn’t directly call you a name, just suggested possible senility. You are the real life “man yells at cloud” gif.
Congrats on voting for Obama. You are truly bipartisan!
Back on Covid, I see where Ohio now has more cases on a rolling basis than they did in April.
They have also recorded more deaths in the last 2 weeks than New York. That can't be good.
Speaking of not good, here in South Carolina we are heading to some really rough water. It's like people don't want to believe that wearing masks helps.
Wild Dunes Resort (outside of Charleston) just shut down till mid-August.
I have thought the same thing, however they seem to happen in enough 'clusters' that it suggests they aren't false positives. For example: My SIL's entire family has tested positive at this point. Almost all where asymptomatic. One of them had a fever for a day or something but felt OK. I'm sure false positives happen, possibly at a pretty high rate (not sure if it's been studied), but it does seem like asymptomatic cases are a real thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskie in dayton
That's probably what you would have to do at that point, and hope we get better at treating it. The thought of people becoming infected multiple times with this is obviously pretty sobering, particularly for those who have stronger reactions and more severe cases.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoMuskies
That would be huge. If I'm not mistaken we still don't know exactly how long the response will last though, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lloyd Braun
Walmart to require masks.
Get your guns. Time to rally.
FREEDOM!!!
Correct, it should be several months at minimum though as in the study the levels were consistent after 2 months (they received a booster after 4 weeks). Regardless it should be long enough for most to weather the storm.Quote:
Originally Posted by boozehound
So is the idea that if we all get vaccinated (or enough of us) at the same time it duplicates herd immunity and goes away, or do we all need to get boosters very 3-4 months potentially?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lloyd Braun
Just heard Hamilton County Commissioner Denise Driehaus on the radio. She was saying that we do have more infections being reported each day and that they seem to be increasing. What they don’t know is how much of it is related to community spread of the disease vs. a function of more testing. It’s probably some of both, but there’s no way to really tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by paulxu
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The only stat of false positives I have seen is 3%. Not sure if that is accurate. I think false negatives is higher and a bigger issue than false positives.Quote:
Originally Posted by boozehound
Sometimes I have read people getting confused and they end up talking about the unreliability of the antibody testing. That testing is really unreliable from what I understand.
Shouldn't it be easy to know how much more testing is being done and if that correlates to the increase in positive cases?Quote:
Originally Posted by bjf123
That would involve Denise Driehaus or anyone in the County Commissioners' office knowing much about anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by D-West & PO-Z
The 1900 number came from the NPR article, or did you not bother to read it? Not a lie. And it was underutilized. Not from Trump's statement but from those on the ground- including this from the NPR article with a quote from "Dario Gonzales, an emergency Doctor with the NYC Fire Department who helped lead the medical response at the temporary hospital at the Javitts Center in Manhattan- "It was very disappointing, Gonzalez said. Everybody was here, ready to work, ready to get patients in....(but) Gonzalez said it could have handled a lot more". "We all could have done a better job, And we've really got to get it together next time". See. Lloyd. This was an attempted NPR slam on the Feds as to how they supposedly overspent, but it backfires on them when you look at how local NY State and City officials handled it. Not my lie. Not Trump's lie, but a statement from every media outlet- probably from trying to "own the Cons" by showing how empty those emergency hospitals were- but it backfired. And, by the way, The article you link to above I had never seen it until now, and never quoted anything here or anywhere else- including on the politics thread from it. You are sinking into delusion my friend in your continued desperate attempt to slam me and prove your unprovable point. Now you are assuming, and we all know what that means. I could say you are lying again to "get" me, but I'll be kind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lloyd Braun
And, errrr, I wouldn't say that a 1900 bed facility was "squeezed" when it only had a grand total of 1100 patients over a just over one month period when large hospitals usually can handle almost 3 times that number. Totally poor utilization by NY- and Dr. Gonzalez attests to that. Meanwhile Cuomo is taking victory laps over the dead bodies of 6000 Nursing Home patients that died from the orders to "Send them back' from hospitals into the Homes.
Congrats on your blatant partisanship! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
My example was very specifically the actual COVID test, not the antibody test. It seems surprising to me that a group of that many people, including people over 70 and 2 with Lupus would all be positive but asymptomatic. Then again this is a strange virus. I'm sure we will learn more as time goes on, but right now the randomness of it seems shocking.Quote:
Originally Posted by D-West & PO-Z
“Maximum beds under contract” is not the same as number of beds. Again, reading comprehension and context are in fact important. You continue to compare this pop up temporary COVID hospital run by the military to regular hospitals. Just answer this question since you have danced around it. Is 1100 COVID patients in 4 weeks considered “barely used” in your opinion?Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterofreality
Edit: I agree it was underutilized because I hold the opinion (and there is a post from 4 months ago on this I had) that we should have converted all convention centers to COVID hospitals and kept all hospitals operating as they were with strict COVID testing in place.
Yeah. 1100 patients over 30 plus days is “barely utilized” based upon large hospital average that I cited from an independent source on an earlier post. Also, given that some NY hospitals were “reportedly” being overrun by “some” media- again trying to set a narrative that there was a lack of response from the Feds- indicates that the Local New York City and State officials f-ed up. And the quote was from a NEW YORK Doctor, not someone from the military. Reading comprehension, huh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lloyd Braun
FINALLY!! The 1900 bed number comes from the NPR summary report! They used it, said the hospital was underutilized! WTF else can I say??
But always another accusation in the face of actual published reports that I cite- AND NOT FROM THE NEW YORK POST OR FOX NEWS!!!
So you think comparing a pop up COVID hospital to a large community hospital is a fair and equal comparison? It’s apples to oranges, amigo. 1100 patients is a lot of people to care for and apparently you don’t see that. How many COVID patients do you think the Cleveland Clinic has had hospitalized? I bet it’s way less than 1100 to put it in perspective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterofreality
1900 is the contracted number available and not the actual number of beds. It says it right there in the NPR article. They expanded beds based on how many patients were seen. The convention center actually said they could have up to 4000 beds if necessary. So again, you are not reading the number in context.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterofreality
No you are not seeing the real number and issue here! Who cares? Contracted or no? 1900 was the published number by NPR. Whatever. This from a 5/2/20 Article in Salon.com (no friend of the Right or Trump). Underutilized. No matter what number you use was it was underutilized.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lloyd Braun
“The Javits Center, which was initially envisioned as a 2,500-bed field hospital for non-COVID patients, converted to coronavirus-only hospital shortly after going operational. Still, the highest number of patients treated at the convention center at one time topped out at close to 500”
“Topped our at 500.” Only 1100 total in over 30 days. US Ship Comfort underutilized too. Other N.Y. Hospitals overrun. = Poor local management, not bad Federal assistance.
You can’t win Lloyd.
https://www.salon.com/2020/05/02/hos...ients_partner/
I never said it wasn’t good federal assistance, I said Trump lied. If you think the Governor has control over who goes to what hospital I think you are mistaken. And again, my original point was that it was not “barely used” as you and Trump state.
Edit: I agree with your last post, I said it was underutilized but that wasn’t your initial statement.
This is original quote from you. You stated “barely used” which is very different than “under utilized”.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterofreality
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lloyd Braun
Barely used vs Underutilized. Hahahahahahaha. Now he’s using Semantics to try to “own”. The last gasp of the defeated.
.This isn’t a court of law. Terminology is not relevant here. The damn place was wasted and mostly left empty by incompetence at the New York State level while other places were in crisis mode. This is not on the Feds, who you have constantly called out. My point was clearly made and it stands. You have nothing.
You can’t win Lloyd
I have constantly called out the Feds? Where? You are completely delusional. “ The damn place was wasted and mostly left empty by incompetence”... I’m sorry were you there? Have you ever seen 500 people in a makeshift hospital at once? Unbelievable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterofreality
Referring to Post 2517.
You can always tell when the game is over when the opposition starts invoking the Bill Clinton “Depends what the meaning of “is” is semantical defense. Given Lloyd’s now evident political leanings Clinton is an appropriate role model.
And this game is over. Thanks for playing Lloyd. Now just go ahead and pontificate on the strict medical side of things. The political and statistical side, given your seeming fondness for faulty model data, doesn’t wear well on you.
“It’s over Johnny. It’s over.”