Covid-19

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Originally Posted by UCGRAD4X

I am generally pro-vax. I have a difficult time seeing justification for many who refuse to do so. I do, however, realize that there are personal, religious, medical, risk vs reward reasons that I don't fully understand but (somewhat) respect because I don't know it all.

That being said, the causation vs correlation is often difficult to confirm with an adequate degree of certainty particularly without an extended period of documentation (but increases with the #N). I respect that VAERS is honest enough to make this point and don't really see it as a indication of fatal flaw in the data and conclusion.

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My issue is not with VAERS or the collection with the data. It is with someone pontificating about "do your research" and then intentionally and recklessly claiming that the vaccines were the direct cause of death of over 6,000 people by citing to VAERS as proof. Doing so either shows the quality of his research or the depths of desire to spread disinformation to get some weird high by trolling on the internet.

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Originally Posted by STL_XUfan

My issue is not with VAERS or the collection with the data. It is with someone pontificating about "do your research" and then intentionally and recklessly claiming that the vaccines were the direct cause of death of over 6,000 people by citing to VAERS as proof. Doing so either shows the quality of his research or the depths of desire to spread disinformation to get some weird high by trolling on the internet.

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Frankly, it’s no different than citing COVID we’re the direct cause of death for most cases. The CDC states that only occurs about 6% of the time.

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Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Frankly, it’s no different than citing COVID we’re the direct cause of death for most cases. The CDC states that only occurs about 6% of the time.

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I'm sorry but this is, at best, a misleading statement. It's very different.

Roughly 600K deaths have been attributed to COVID in the United States thus far. If you look at 'excess deaths' (all causes) in the United States during that same time you get over 500K excess deaths. That does point to a potential 'overcount', but nowhere near the level you seem to be implying.

I assume your point lies in your distinction of what 'direct cause of death' means, and that you are playing the game where is someone has diabetes, obesity, heart disease, etc. and contracts COVID and subsequently dies, COVID isn't the 'direct cause of death'. The thing is most of those people wouldn't be dead if they hadn't contracted COVID.

The number of all cause deaths in the United States has been relatively stable for 20+ years. Except for this year where it's almost 500K higher (roughly 20%, I believe). The only thing that has really changed in COVID. That seems to suggest that COVID caused those deaths, whether directly or indirectly.

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Originally Posted by boozehound

I'm sorry but this is, at best, a misleading statement. It's very different.

Roughly 600K deaths have been attributed to COVID in the United States thus far. If you look at 'excess deaths' (all causes) in the United States during that same time you get over 500K excess deaths. That does point to a potential 'overcount', but nowhere near the level you seem to be implying.

I assume your point lies in your distinction of what 'direct cause of death' means, and that you are playing the game where is someone has diabetes, obesity, heart disease, etc. and contracts COVID and subsequently dies, COVID isn't the 'direct cause of death'. The thing is most of those people wouldn't be dead if they hadn't contracted COVID.

The number of all cause deaths in the United States has been relatively stable for 20+ years. Except for this year where it's almost 500K higher (roughly 20%, I believe). The only thing that has really changed in COVID. That seems to suggest that COVID caused those deaths, whether directly or indirectly.

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Take it up with the CDC data. The 6% is their number not mine. It’s not misleading because it doesn’t neatly fit the narrative.

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Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Take it up with the CDC data. The 6% is their number not mine. It’s not misleading because it doesn’t neatly fit the narrative.

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There’s a post somewhere in this thread showing the 6% is what was written in the line of “cause of death” on the death certificate without any other causes listed. It’s probably lower now than it was then because that is not an appropriate direct cause of death. And perhaps you can’t truly understand cause of death until you complete a death certificate but the disease itself is almost never a true cause of death. For example, “respiratory arrest” as cause of death, due to “covid infection” would not count in the 6%.

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Originally Posted by Lloyd Braun

There’s a post somewhere in this thread showing the 6% is what was written in the line of “cause of death” on the death certificate without any other causes listed. It’s probably lower now than it was then because that is not an appropriate direct cause of death. And perhaps you can’t truly understand cause of death until you complete a death certificate but the disease itself is almost never a true cause of death. For example, “respiratory arrest” as cause of death, due to “covid infection” would not count in the 6%.

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Ok, now explain the difference between this and the VAERS data.

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Originally Posted by STL_XUfan

My issue is not with VAERS or the collection with the data. It is with someone pontificating about "do your research" and then intentionally and recklessly claiming that the vaccines were the direct cause of death of over 6,000 people by citing to VAERS as proof. Doing so either shows the quality of his research or the depths of desire to spread disinformation to get some weird high by trolling on the internet.

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Wait, are you accusing the CDC of publishing misinformation? Are you saying they're lying?

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Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Ok, now explain the difference between this and the VAERS data.

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What I described was what is reported on death certificates to the CDC.

VAERS data is a tabulation of adverse effects from a vaccine that is reported by the patient. That information is then transmitted to the VAERS database.

So, if looking at deaths - one is reported and documented by a physician, the other can be reported by anyone. See if you can find how many death certificates have “covid vaccine” as a cause of death. It would probably be 0% as the vaccine didn’t kill the person, it was the sequelae. For example- If someone died from an anaphylactic reaction to the covid vaccine the cause of death would likely be “anaphylaxis” contributed by “covid vaccination” or something similar (respiratory arrest, etc).

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Originally Posted by Lloyd Braun

What I described was what is reported on death certificates to the CDC.

VAERS data is a tabulation of adverse effects from a vaccine that is reported by the patient. That information is then transmitted to the VAERS database.

So, if looking at deaths - one is reported and documented by a physician, the other can be reported by anyone. See if you can find how many death certificates have “covid vaccine” as a cause of death. It would probably be 0% as the vaccine didn’t kill the person, it was the sequelae. For example- If someone died from an anaphylactic reaction to the covid vaccine the cause of death would likely be “anaphylaxis” contributed by “covid vaccination” or something similar (respiratory arrest, etc).

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Ok, so similarly listing "respiratory arrest", due to COVID after receiving the vaccine?

Frankly, I don't think either is necessarily accurate but I'm not dismissing either as misinformation. Both are information that can help someone to analyze what works best for them. I was aware the vaccine had risks and decided to get it. It is misinformation to say there are no health risks associated with the vaccine.

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Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Ok, so similarly listing "respiratory arrest", due to COVID after receiving the vaccine?

Frankly, I don't think either is necessarily accurate but I'm not dismissing either as misinformation. Both are information that can help someone to analyze what works best for them. I was aware the vaccine had risks and decided to get it. It is misinformation to say there are no health risks associated with the vaccine.

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Exactly!

Moreover, to pooh-pooh VAERS data because it is reported by patients (under penalty of law if caught lying - and don't forget it is widely accepted that most people don't report their adverse issues to this system), while ignoring the financial incentives dropped at the feet of doctors and hospitals is a bit disingenuous as well.