Covid-19

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Originally Posted by Lloyd Braun

Can’t read the article as it’s behind a paywall. I’m not trying to defend Cuomo, I don’t live in New York and have no idea what his response was like initially. I also believe NYC to be likely the most difficult place to contain the virus on Earth for many reasons. It is much easier to contain in Ohio, rural states with low density, and places that aren’t travel destinations. Florida was likely never going to avoid it but their governor made a “Mission Accomplished” speech with VP Pence and now is likely regretting it. He has done many positives as well in regard to widespread testing that we still lack here for whatever reason.

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I don't live in NY either but you were cited an article about NY which tended to defend Cuomo so I cited one that showed it was a failure on many levels. Here's the main points of the article.

• Improper patient transfers. Some patients were too sick to have been transferred between hospitals. Squabbling between the Cuomo and de Blasio administrations contributed to an uncoordinated effort.
• Insufficient isolation protocols. Hospitals often mixed infected patients with the uninfected early on, and the virus spread to non-Covid-19 units.
• Inadequate staff planning. Hospitals added hundreds of intensive-care beds but not always enough trained staff, leading to improper treatments and overlooked patients dying alone.
• Mixed messages. State, city government and hospital officials kept shifting guidelines about when exposed and ill front-line workers should return to work.
• Overreliance on government sources for key equipment. Hospitals turned to the state and federal government for hundreds of ventilators, but many were faulty or inadequate.
• Procurement-planning gaps. While leaders focused attention on procuring ventilators, hospitals didn’t always provide for adequate supplies of critical resources including oxygen, vital-signs monitors and dialysis machines.
• Incomplete staff-protection policies. Many hospitals provided staff with insufficient protective equipment and testing.

Also mentions that Cuomo was telling people in early March that things were under control.

NYC may be more difficult because of the concentration of people but it also has many more resources to deal with something of this nature. Moreover, simply by the nature of its density there should have been a more proactive approach.

It's simply a breakdown because politicians would rather play politics with the opposition than try and find solutions that both sides can live with. And this definitely works both ways, but for some reason we only hear about states run by governors with an "R" next to their name.

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Originally Posted by chico

I don't live in NY either but you were cited an article about NY which tended to defend Cuomo so I cited one that showed it was a failure on many levels. Here's the main points of the article.

• Improper patient transfers. Some patients were too sick to have been transferred between hospitals. Squabbling between the Cuomo and de Blasio administrations contributed to an uncoordinated effort.
• Insufficient isolation protocols. Hospitals often mixed infected patients with the uninfected early on, and the virus spread to non-Covid-19 units.
• Inadequate staff planning. Hospitals added hundreds of intensive-care beds but not always enough trained staff, leading to improper treatments and overlooked patients dying alone.
• Mixed messages. State, city government and hospital officials kept shifting guidelines about when exposed and ill front-line workers should return to work.
• Overreliance on government sources for key equipment. Hospitals turned to the state and federal government for hundreds of ventilators, but many were faulty or inadequate.
• Procurement-planning gaps. While leaders focused attention on procuring ventilators, hospitals didn’t always provide for adequate supplies of critical resources including oxygen, vital-signs monitors and dialysis machines.
• Incomplete staff-protection policies. Many hospitals provided staff with insufficient protective equipment and testing.

Also mentions that Cuomo was telling people in early March that things were under control.

NYC may be more difficult because of the concentration of people but it also has many more resources to deal with something of this nature. Moreover, simply by the nature of its density there should have been a more proactive approach.

It's simply a breakdown because politicians would rather play politics with the opposition than try and find solutions that both sides can live with. And this definitely works both ways, but for some reason we only hear about states run by governors with an "R" next to their name.

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Cuomo made a lot of mistakes, but some of the points in that article are a bit of a reach, IMO. NYC got hit early and hard, so they didn't have the benefit of any experience at all. We should be getting better managing this thing as it goes on and we learn more about what it does, how to treat it, and how it spreads.

Cuomo definitely made massive mistakes in how he handled nursing homes. Murphy in NJ did too. I think they both were so worried about hospital capacity for a future surge that they moved people out of hospitals and back into long term care facilities way too fast to try to preserve capacity at the hospitals. It made the situation much worse, and contributed to high death rates.

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Originally Posted by Masterofreality

Yeah, it's Bullshit. It's coming from the same entity that carried out Cuomo's orders and they get their "friends" to give "reports" on reasons. Anything to cover it up and avoid lawsuits, right?

By your response, you are defending Cuomo, and look for any reason to go after non-Dem governors or the feds for their lack of response. Meanwhile, New Jersey and Michigan and Connecticut and Massachusetts get a free pass from you.
The Feds sent hospital ships and outfitted the Javitts Center for treatments, yet they were barely used. Meanwhile, Cuomo sends infected patients back into nursing homes when they could have gone to those other locations. This caused thousands of unneeded nursing home deaths. That is undeniable.
And talk about a "Mission Accomplished" speech? Cuomo and his idiot brother on CNN sucking each other off is disgusting at least and lack of journalistic integrity at worst. The same Chris Cuomo who tested positive and broke his Quarantine to ride his bike without a mask.

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I have not been overly critical of anyone on the state level unless it’s in my state, as I don’t think it’s fair to criticize from afar. My only criticism was DeSantis’ mission accomplished speech. I didn’t see Cuomo or his brother as I don’t watch CNN. I have been able to compliment both R’s and D’s on various policies, have you? I actually think your brain might seize if you were forced to compliment a Democrat. Correct me if I am wrong but I have yet to see it. Just like the politics thread, whenever there is an attack on a Republican, the response is always “Dems are worse”.

Even the Time is saying that New York was to blame for much of the spread around our country.

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“We now have enough data to feel pretty confident that New York was the primary gateway for the rest of the country,” said Nathan Grubaugh, an epidemiologist at the Yale School of Public Health.

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https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/07/u...-outbreak.html

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Originally Posted by chico

I don't live in NY either but you were cited an article about NY which tended to defend Cuomo so I cited one that showed it was a failure on many levels. Here's the main points of the article.

• Improper patient transfers. Some patients were too sick to have been transferred between hospitals. Squabbling between the Cuomo and de Blasio administrations contributed to an uncoordinated effort.
• Insufficient isolation protocols. Hospitals often mixed infected patients with the uninfected early on, and the virus spread to non-Covid-19 units.
• Inadequate staff planning. Hospitals added hundreds of intensive-care beds but not always enough trained staff, leading to improper treatments and overlooked patients dying alone.
• Mixed messages. State, city government and hospital officials kept shifting guidelines about when exposed and ill front-line workers should return to work.
• Overreliance on government sources for key equipment. Hospitals turned to the state and federal government for hundreds of ventilators, but many were faulty or inadequate.
• Procurement-planning gaps. While leaders focused attention on procuring ventilators, hospitals didn’t always provide for adequate supplies of critical resources including oxygen, vital-signs monitors and dialysis machines.
• Incomplete staff-protection policies. Many hospitals provided staff with insufficient protective equipment and testing.

Also mentions that Cuomo was telling people in early March that things were under control.

NYC may be more difficult because of the concentration of people but it also has many more resources to deal with something of this nature. Moreover, simply by the nature of its density there should have been a more proactive approach.

It's simply a breakdown because politicians would rather play politics with the opposition than try and find solutions that both sides can live with. And this definitely works both ways, but for some reason we only hear about states run by governors with an "R" next to their name.

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Some of these details may have contributed which is a fair critique. The main one that seems to get brought up is transferring COVID patients back to the nursing home. While this intuitively seems like a terrible idea, infection control policies advised with this policy recommends those patients be isolated along with contact precautions in place. I tend to believe the timeline of the report that most of the infections were from staff and not from resident to resident after being readmitted, thus not being a significant contributor. The freed up hospital bed may have saved lives as well and there is no way to see the impact on that. Florida should provide insight into this shortly unless they designate more rehab places as COVID only recoveries, which they have done. The policy in Florida now is not to send back to LTCF until they test negative. That is one reason their hospitals are approaching max capacity.

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Originally Posted by Lloyd Braun

I have not been overly critical of anyone on the state level unless it’s in my state, as I don’t think it’s fair to criticize from afar. My only criticism was DeSantis’ mission accomplished speech. I didn’t see Cuomo or his brother as I don’t watch CNN. I have been able to compliment both R’s and D’s on various policies, have you? I actually think your brain might seize if you were forced to compliment a Democrat. Correct me if I am wrong but I have yet to see it. Just like the politics thread, whenever there is an attack on a Republican, the response is always “Dems are worse”.

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It is kind of hard to compliment a Democrat Governor, when each of the most affected states are run by, errrrr, DEMOCRATS!
Deaths from Covid:
1. New York- 32,444
2 New Jersey- 15,634
3. Massachusetts- 8,330
4. Illinois- 7,394
5. California- 7,053
6. Pennsylvania- 6,963
7. Michigan- 6,321
8. Connecticut- 4,371
9. Florida- 4,277
10. Louisiana- 3,428.
Yup, 9 out of the 10 are States with Democratic Governors. 66.5% of Total US Deaths from Covid have come in those 9 Democratic run states. This Despite 4 of the most populous States are run by republicans. Know who is NOT on that list? Ohio, Georgia and Texas. Kinda hard to compliment incompetence. But just keep screaming "testing" and "cases" right Lloyd?
Oh, and out of the Top 15 states in "Deaths per Million" of population, the first Republican runs state shows up as ranked 14th. 14 out of the Top 15 are Democrat run. So where can I compliment?
I could, I guess, search hard to compliment the state of Washington's Governor, but using your critical criteria, I can't because there is a resurgence there too. And, um. Today's report. New York 41 new deaths, while Florida, who you continually seem to criticize had only 35. In fact, New York had more deaths in the last 24 hours than any other state. Texas had 18, and, you know, people from all over the world fly into Houston too, just like they do New York.

By the way, "YOUR" state is Ohio, the 7th largest state by population in the US. Yet it is 18th in number of deaths per million of population in the US. So, just keep on being "overly critical" of a Republican Governor who has done a pretty good job, although I have disagreed with their reliance on faulty modeling for making decisions that directly affected economic well-being.

So yeah, the Dems ARE worse. Case closed.

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Originally Posted by Lloyd Braun

Some of these details may have contributed which is a fair critique. The main one that seems to get brought up is transferring COVID patients back to the nursing home. While this intuitively seems like a terrible idea, infection control policies advised with this policy recommends those patients be isolated along with contact precautions in place. I tend to believe the timeline of the report that most of the infections were from staff and not from resident to resident after being readmitted, thus not being a significant contributor. The freed up hospital bed may have saved lives as well and there is no way to see the impact on that. Florida should provide insight into this shortly unless they designate more rehab places as COVID only recoveries, which they have done. The policy in Florida now is not to send back to LTCF until they test negative. That is one reason their hospitals are approaching max capacity.

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"Freed up hospital beds" and believing the NY State's own assessment. Way to cover again, Lloyd.The actual death numbers prove that to be false. How about total incompetence on how to allocate patients as to conditions? Javits Center. Barely used despite the Federal Government paying $128 million dollars and rushing equipment there. How about a barely used Navy Hospital ship that was rushed to New York, that Cuomo actually almost choked on his words and complimented Trump on his quick action? Those beds were ALWAYS free and those patients could have been sent there rather than following Cuomo Directive 3A. Look it up if you don't know what that means.
See, you say you're above the fray but your own statements that provide cover for a horriffic State response and actions belie that contention.

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Originally Posted by Lloyd Braun

Just like the politics thread, whenever there is an attack on a Republican, the response is always “Dems are worse”.

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Wait...this is not the politics thread? Can you please redirect me?

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Originally Posted by Masterofreality

It is kind of hard to compliment a Democrat Governor, when each of the most affected states are run by, errrrr, DEMOCRATS!
Deaths from Covid:
1. New York- 32,444
2 New Jersey- 15,634
3. Massachusetts- 8,330
4. Illinois- 7,394
5. California- 7,053
6. Pennsylvania- 6,963
7. Michigan- 6,321
8. Connecticut- 4,371
9. Florida- 4,277
10. Louisiana- 3,428.
Yup, 9 out of the 10 are States with Democratic Governors. 66.5% of Total US Deaths from Covid have come in those 9 Democratic run states. This Despite 4 of the most populous States are run by republicans. Know who is NOT on that list? Ohio, Georgia and Texas. Kinda hard to compliment incompetence. But just keep screaming "testing" and "cases" right Lloyd?
Oh, and out of the Top 15 states in "Deaths per Million" of population, the first Republican runs state shows up as ranked 14th. 14 out of the Top 15 are Democrat run. So where can I compliment?
I could, I guess, search hard to compliment the state of Washington's Governor, but using your critical criteria, I can't because there is a resurgence there too. And, um. Today's report. New York 41 new deaths, while Florida, who you continually seem to criticize had only 35. In fact, New York had more deaths in the last 24 hours than any other state. Texas had 18, and, you know, people from all over the world fly into Houston too, just like they do New York.

By the way, "YOUR" state is Ohio, the 7th largest state by population in the US. Yet it is 18th in number of deaths per million of population in the US. So, just keep on being "overly critical" of a Republican Governor who has done a pretty good job, although I have disagreed with their reliance on faulty modeling for making decisions that directly affected economic well-being.

So yeah, the Dems ARE worse. Case closed.

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Or perhaps you fail recognize cause and effect. The areas hardest hit by the virus due to its transmission route (urbanized highly/densely populated areas) are traditionally in states with a democratic governor. 3 most populous cities in the US (NY, Chi, LA) are all in states with a Democrat as governor. If we can go back to March and try to predict where this would hit first, those 3 cities would be at the top of everyone’s list, no? Further, I would expect NYC to be at the very top of everyone’s list. Heck, you were there in March and thought it was ok to travel there. In hindsight would you do it again knowing what we know now?

Criticizing Dems who fail to control COVID in their states while giving Trump a pass in failing to control it in the US is hypocritical. I have not been highly critical of Trump in the response other than in testing and his overall demeanor as a leader. The very first post in this thread I made reference to the “no big deal” attitude I was concerned with about this virus that he displayed in March. If you hold Cuomo and other Democratic governors to a standard that they are responsible for lives, how about Trump?

I don’t expect you to ever truly criticize him, you seem to idolize him and regurgitate his statements as nauseam, including the recent statements about the Javits center. I wasn’t familiar with what happened there after they opened it so I did a search, and the first article that comes up is a statement Trump made 3 weeks ago, which I assume is your source for this claim. So I searched to see if any patients were treated there at all since your statement made it seem that it was converted to a hospital for nothing (more on that in a bit) and found this article that says they treated about 1200 patients in a month! That’s actually pretty incredible considering they only have about the same number of beds. Is that max capacity? No of course not but that’s highly utilized. Unlike pretty much every other area in the country that converted space to treat COVID patients that YOU have been critical of as a waste of money and over planning. So basically, you have stated it’s the faulty models that have caused us to over plan and waste money, and it’s the Democrat’s fault for not using it enough all at the same time. Case closed.

Your outlook changes on the issue when it's personal, not political:

Feb 28th: White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney suggested Friday that Americans ignore the media’s coverage of the coronavirus, arguing that journalists are ratcheting up fears to try to hurt President Donald Trump politically.

Mulvaney today: "I know it isn’t popular to talk about in some Republican circles, but we still have a testing problem in this country. My son was tested recently; we had to wait 5 to 7 days for results. My daughter wanted to get tested before visiting her grandparents, but was told she didn’t qualify. That is simply inexcusable at this point in the pandemic."