Covid-19

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Originally Posted by boozehound

You are screaming into the void.

There is, of course, no way you can incontrovertibly prove that the vaccine is safe over the long term, because it's relatively new. So they get to claim some sort of false intellectual high ground by simply saying they are 'undecided' because we 'don't know enough about the long term effects'. Then they call everything 'ad hominem' which is code for 'questioning their bullshit sources' or just say that everything is a logical fallacy.

Here is the key to the game - you are effectively being asked to prove that a future event (long term adverse vaccine effects) will not occur. You of course cannot do that, so they get to remain 'undecided' until you do so, which is not possible.

Edit: Most people who chose to get the vaccine did so because they believed that the risk of getting COVID was more dangerous than the possibility of long term side effects. That's it. Most of the available evidence thus far would support that. We, of course, don't know what will happen in the future, however vaccine side effects tend to be immediate so I feel safe getting the shot.

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Or they just say, nah I’ll wait. Thanks and please leave me alone.

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Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Or they just say, nah I’ll wait. Thanks and please leave me alone.

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Which is their choice, I guess. But wait how long? Maybe everything is fine for 10 years and then BAM year 11 it gets you?

And my point would be that they aren't really undecided at that point. To quote one of my favorite Rush songs: If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

Let's face it. The new Pandemic is now just the among the unvaxxed.

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Originally Posted by boozehound

Which is their choice, I guess. But wait how long? Maybe everything is fine for 10 years and then BAM year 11 it gets you?

And my point would be that they aren't really undecided at that point. To quote one of my favorite Rush songs: If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

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And they did. So why would are we discussing it?

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Originally Posted by bobbiemcgee

Let's face it. The new Pandemic is now just the among the unvaxxed.

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Only if the unvaxxed are unsophisticated…

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Originally Posted by bobbiemcgee

Let's face it. The new Pandemic is now just the among the unvaxxed.

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I bet your TV told you that, didn’t it? How about go look at some actual data.

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Originally Posted by Xville

The difference is that vaccines are based on actual science.

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Actual science is a process, not an answer.

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Originally Posted by principal

But that is the problem, the scientific questions about which every human on earth is presently ignorant, namely how long immunity lasts and how safe the new vaccines are, are unanswered. If you want to draw final conclusions out of ignorance that is your choice. I remain uncertain, and therefore I remain undecided in regards to these particular questions.

Principal

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Since, as you point out, “every human on earth is presently ignorant” on all the details, should nobody act until all the questions are answered? Or should we weigh what we DO know and make the best decision possible based upon the best available evidence?

I’m not trying to sell anyone on anything. I don’t have all the answers. You should make your own decisions about your life. I weighed what (we think) we know, considered what we do not yet know and made a decision. Simply not acting had greater risks, in MY mind, than not acting at all because we don’t know everything that could ever be known about the virus. If you want to wait for more info, you be you.

At some point I knew enough to make a decision I was comfortable with. I didn’t draw a final conclusion out of ignorance. I made a decision based upon the best information available at that time. That’s how life usually works.

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Originally Posted by Muskie in dayton

Actual science is a process, not an answer.

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Well done sir!

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Originally Posted by Muskie in dayton

Actual science is a process, not an answer.

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And thru that process, you come to a conclusion or answer.

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Originally Posted by Xville

And thru that process, you come to a conclusion or answer.

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Where do you feel we are in the process on COVID? Do we have a definitive conclusion?

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Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Where do you feel we are in the process on COVID? Do we have a definitive conclusion?

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That’s a pretty loaded general question.

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Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Where do you feel we are in the process on COVID? Do we have a definitive conclusion?

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Absolutely NOT!


But sometimes it’s best to act on the knowledge you DO have rather than waiting for answers for the questions that remain. I weighed what we knew vs what we didn’t, and made a call. That is up to each individual for now. There may soon be greater consequences for not playing along, however. A couple NFL coaches are now unemployed as a result of refusing vaccination. My wife’s employer also plans to require vaccination to return to the office, though that date has been moved back again.

This will keep evolving, and we will have to keep adapting in various ways.

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Originally Posted by xu82

Absolutely NOT!


But sometimes it’s best to act on the knowledge you DO have rather than waiting for answers for the questions that remain. I weighed what we knew vs what we didn’t, and made a call. That is up to each individual for now. There may soon be greater consequences for not playing along, however. A couple NFL coaches are now unemployed as a result of refusing vaccination. My wife’s employer also plans to require vaccination to return to the office, though that date has been moved back again.

This will keep evolving, and we will have to keep adapting in various ways.

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Agree and did the same.

Others chose a different path. All good.

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Originally Posted by Muskie in dayton

I bet your TV told you that, didn’t it? How about go look at some actual data.

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Nope. Common sense. You should try some.

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Originally Posted by bobbiemcgee

Nope. Common sense. You should try some.

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That’s what I thought.

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Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Agree and did the same.

Others chose a different path. All good.

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I’ll open myself up to fire for being fully transparent, but I wish they would get the shot because it appears most evidence suggests that is best for the individuals and the world as a whole.

But ignore my opinion there. It’s your body, it’s your life, and you do your thing.

That may get more complicated as we move along, but I’m not telling anyone else what to do.

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Originally Posted by Lloyd Braun

I just don’t see the correlation with latitude. I’ve seen the attempt to overlay graphs and for whatever reason I don’t see it. Covid may have peaks at various times but it has been year round regardless of latitude. Human behaviors have been shown to directly affect covid numbers, because it is a respiratory virus. By nature there must be other people around to transmit the virus. Last summer I remember reading all the Hope Simpson data when I believe you posted it then and I was not convinced. It seemed like a fancy way of saying “virus gonna virus” and our behaviors do not impact it as much. And it doesn’t really hold water for covid as time goes on. Flu goes away for months while covid has been perpetual and seems to withstand varying temperatures better.

However I think it shows how intertwined we are globally. That our behaviors eventually impact those on the other side of the globe. In spite of breakthrough cases this will be proven to be a disease burden driven largely by those without any immunity. We will see breakthrough and repeat cases but the more data accumulated points to the conclusion that the majority of viral load is in those that are unvaccinated without natural immunity.

Predicting a big drop in cases was mentioned in the video principal posted as well which is usually what happens. I’m not so sure it will be in 10 days in this state as I have seen a huge spike the last 3-5 days. But it will happen because people change their behaviors during spikes. Deep down nobody wants this illness and when there are regional spikes people scale back their behaviors. Which to the point of Dr ZDogg is a good reason to not have lockdowns. Human nature takes over…

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I'm not sure why you don't see the correlation. But tell me, do you really believe that India, for example, saw cases drop from 400k/day to 50k/day in a matter of a couple weeks just by their collective individual actions? We already know that government mandated NPIs don't change the trajectory, so I find it impossible that it would. If you really believe so, that's way too idealistic for me and we'll need to agree to disagree.

Also, the flu doesn't go away - it just peaks and valleys at different places around the globe, well, seasonally... exactly how Hope-Simpson said. Sure COVID has higher peaks and valleys, but the patterns are very similar.

I'll also address your comment about this being a pandemic of the unvaccinated (pay attention Bobbie). A practical example is Iceland, which is the only country I've seen provide comprehensive differentiation in their positive test data by vaccination status. The % vaccinated cases is comparable to the % of the population vaccinated (~70%).

This is not an indictment of the vax - in fact the vast majority of the vaccinated cases are irrelevant because the are so minor. But it is a recognition that vaccination won't end this. I'll say this until I'm blue in the face: Get vaccinated if you believe that's best (I believe it is for most), and go about your life. If you don't believe it's best, take the risk and go about your life. Either way, go about your life.

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Originally Posted by Muskie in dayton

I'm not sure why you don't see the correlation. But tell me, do you really believe that India, for example, saw cases drop from 400k/day to 50k/day in a matter of a couple weeks just by their collective individual actions? We already know that government mandated NPIs don't change the trajectory, so I find it impossible that it would. If you really believe so, that's way too idealistic for me and we'll need to agree to disagree.

Also, the flu doesn't go away - it just peaks and valleys at different places around the globe, well, seasonally... exactly how Hope-Simpson said. Sure COVID has higher peaks and valleys, but the patterns are very similar.

I'll also address your comment about this being a pandemic of the unvaccinated (pay attention Bobbie). A practical example is Iceland, which is the only country I've seen provide comprehensive differentiation in their positive test data by vaccination status. The % vaccinated cases is comparable to the % of the population vaccinated (~70%).

This is not an indictment of the vax - in fact the vast majority of the vaccinated cases are irrelevant because the are so minor. But it is a recognition that vaccination won't end this. I'll say this until I'm blue in the face: Get vaccinated if you believe that's best (I believe it is for most), and go about your life. If you don't believe it's best, take the risk and go about your life. Either way, go about your life.

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India’s covid spike took place over a matter of months. It really started to increase beginning of March, peaked beginning of May, and returned back towards a reasonable rate in July. When you are at 400k+ cases/day (reported, likely much higher actuality) the number of available hosts decreases drastically, even in India. Not to mention they were vaccinating quite a few people at that time. I don’t know all that occurred there but it seems that their healthcare system collapsed in several places. So yes I suppose we disagree as I believe they reached a point of rock bottom and changed behavior. It’s human nature in that situation.

At every latitude the flu goes away every year. Covid does not. Their patterns are not very similar. I’m sure there is a latitude that has a similar pattern but I don’t see it. I would be open to data but I was looking directly at his book from 40 years ago or whatever and I see a definitive seasonal virus with the flu that disappears in the summer. Not so much with covid. Some of that may be due to viral behavior but there is human impact on both and most likely due to ventilation.

Iceland has done a great job jabbing at over 90% vaccination rate ages 16+. Hospitalizations have been minimal and they’ve had 1 death in 2021. I do not know enough details about their cases but I do find it ironic you use their case number as an example yet months ago question the cases due to CT values. Check out the CT values in Iceland and see who they are testing and I think you may change your tune on them.

The disease burden remains driven by the unvaccinated without natural immunity. Note I did not just say “unvaccinated” as I do believe those with natural immunity are not driving the burden of disease. By burden, I mean hospitalizations, death, cost, etc. Viral loads are high in those without prior immunity, natural or vaccinated, and when viral load is higher there is more transmission. I am seeing this in real life in a sample size that is reasonable. Many households have couples where one chooses to vaccinate and the other does not. So far 100% of the symptomatic breakthrough infections I have seen this week have likely come from the unvaccinated spouse or household member. That is why I believe vaccination would end this if it were possible to get everyone on board. When the antibody titers are high, we do not see infection or transmission. Here is more data to support that from Moderna.

Resistance is definitely growing against the elitist frauds and liars:

In Paris: http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=62447

In TN: https://twitter.com/_Mrtdogg/status/1425442121054662663

In N. KY: https://twitter.com/RepThomasMassie/...81517983604739

In Canada the Ontario Civil Liberties Association published this open letter:

"It is entirely reasonable and legitimate to say ‘no’ to insufficiently tested vaccines for which there is no reliable science. You have a right to assert guardianship of your body and to refuse medical treatments if you see fit. You are right to say ‘no’ to a violation of your dignity, your integrity and your bodily autonomy. It is your body, and you have the right to choose. You are right to fight for your children against their mass vaccination in school.

You are right to question whether free and informed consent is at all possible under present circumstances. Long-term effects are unknown. Transgenerational effects are unknown. Vaccine-induced deregulation of natural immunity is unknown. Potential harm is unknown as the adverse event reporting is delayed, incomplete and inconsistent between jurisdictions.

You are inaccurately accused of being a factory for new SARS-CoV-2 variants, when in fact, according to leading scientists, your natural immune system generates immunity to multiple components of the virus. This will promote your protection against a vast range of viral variants and abrogates further spread to anyone else.

You are justified in demanding independent peer-reviewed studies, not funded by multinational pharmaceutical companies. All the peer-reviewed studies of short-term safety and short-term efficacy have been funded, organized, coordinated, and supported by these for-profit corporations; and none of the study data have been made public or available to researchers who don’t work for these companies."

https://www.theepochtimes.com/vaccin...heLibertyDaily

https://ocla.ca/a-letter-to-the-unvaccinated/

Looks like I'll be getting my 3rd shot soon.

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Originally Posted by bobbiemcgee

Looks like I'll be getting my 3rd shot soon.

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And then fourth, fifth, sixth...just keep getting jabbed bud.

According to the WHO, it takes 10 years or more for a vaccine to be developed.

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Originally Posted by Xville

And thru that process, you come to a conclusion or answer.

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…which is opened to the process of additional question, data collection, and evaluation.

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Originally Posted by Lloyd Braun

India’s covid spike took place over a matter of months. It really started to increase beginning of March, peaked beginning of May, and returned back towards a reasonable rate in July. When you are at 400k+ cases/day (reported, likely much higher actuality) the number of available hosts decreases drastically, even in India. Not to mention they were vaccinating quite a few people at that time. I don’t know all that occurred there but it seems that their healthcare system collapsed in several places. So yes I suppose we disagree as I believe they reached a point of rock bottom and changed behavior. It’s human nature in that situation.

At every latitude the flu goes away every year. Covid does not. Their patterns are not very similar. I’m sure there is a latitude that has a similar pattern but I don’t see it. I would be open to data but I was looking directly at his book from 40 years ago or whatever and I see a definitive seasonal virus with the flu that disappears in the summer. Not so much with covid. Some of that may be due to viral behavior but there is human impact on both and most likely due to ventilation.

Iceland has done a great job jabbing at over 90% vaccination rate ages 16+. Hospitalizations have been minimal and they’ve had 1 death in 2021. I do not know enough details about their cases but I do find it ironic you use their case number as an example yet months ago question the cases due to CT values. Check out the CT values in Iceland and see who they are testing and I think you may change your tune on them.

The disease burden remains driven by the unvaccinated without natural immunity. Note I did not just say “unvaccinated” as I do believe those with natural immunity are not driving the burden of disease. By burden, I mean hospitalizations, death, cost, etc. Viral loads are high in those without prior immunity, natural or vaccinated, and when viral load is higher there is more transmission. I am seeing this in real life in a sample size that is reasonable. Many households have couples where one chooses to vaccinate and the other does not. So far 100% of the symptomatic breakthrough infections I have seen this week have likely come from the unvaccinated spouse or household member. That is why I believe vaccination would end this if it were possible to get everyone on board. When the antibody titers are high, we do not see infection or transmission. Here is more data to support that from Moderna.

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Yes, agree to disagree on the reason why cases drop so fast. Also if you look at tropical areas, the flu does not disappear. But that is minutia.

On to the breakthrough cases, I had not considered the Ct, nor have I looked at how Iceland handles that. But if they are running the samples at ludicrous speed, then I agree with you and that is a garbage metric, and could bias the vax breakthrough cases high. This does further my point though, that "cases" (aka positive test results) is a terrible metric, along with % positive, they all need to go where the sun don't shine. What it comes down to is are people getting gravely ill and dying.

I hope you are right that vaccination/natural immunity will end this. It should, and as I stated above, I believe it has already has. If someone wants to go unvaccinated (aside from kids and those with natural immunity), it's their risk. Just like if someone wants to skydive, swim with great whites, or hike naked to the north pole, that's on them. Have at it, but time for the rest of us to go about our lives.

My limit at Dana's and driving has just taken a big increase. Freedom !

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Originally Posted by X Factor

And then fourth, fifth, sixth...just keep getting jabbed bud.

According to the WHO, it takes 10 years or more for a vaccine to be developed.

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Jabs don't bother me. I got about 16 vaccines in less than a minute in the military. Two docs with "plungers" and needles hitting you in both arms as you ran the gauntlet. They gave you maybe ten minutes to wash off your arms then on to the O course. In the last five years, I got jabs for shingles prevention, whooping cough, (so I could see new babies), the annual flu shot, a Tb test, etc. So who cares if I get an annual covid shot? No big deal.

New data on coronavirus vaccine effectiveness may be "a wakeup call"

https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-va...0be357070.html

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Originally Posted by principal

Your thoughts on this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUPD0W71iMc

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Was this the Mt. Vernon, IN school board? If so, that video is currently on fire on Twitter.

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Originally Posted by X Factor

New data on coronavirus vaccine effectiveness may be "a wakeup call"

https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-va...0be357070.html

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Holy shit! Who would've ever thought that the data coming out of Iceland, Israel and the UK was actually accurate! Damn, that's weird...

In related news:

* EU looking into new possible side-effects of mRNA COVID-19 shots: "Erythema multiforme, a form of allergic skin reaction; glomerulonephritis or kidney inflammation; and nephrotic syndrome, a renal disorder characterised by heavy urinary protein losses, are being studied by the safety committee of the European Medicines Agency (EMA), according to the regulator."

https://www.reuters.com/business/hea...es-2021-08-11/

* Meanwhile, in Israel, which is 80% Vaccinated, Suffers Another Covid-19 Surge: "Country delivers more booster shots, restores mask and quarantine mandates as Delta variant drives up hospitalizations"

https://archive.fo/f6wRU#selection-3639.5-3643.118

https://www.timesofisrael.com/health...-within-month/

Perhaps Joe Rogan explains it best in this short video where he cites a scientific study on why this happening (you'll need to click "View" to watch it):
https://twitter.com/cdelvallejr/stat...31149567172616


I totally agree with Alex Berenson:

"We are in a race. It’s not a race of vaccines against variants, though. We know who wins that race.

We are in a race of truth against hysteria, honest appraisal of data against a desperate unwillingness to admit error, and health against profit.

The stakes could not be higher."

https://www.wthr.com/mobile/article/...9-fadc92a0016d

This as expected pretty much blows up the “doctor’s” speech.

I like this doctor's response. Pretty measured.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpCDI2ntT-E

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Originally Posted by GoMuskies

I like this doctor's response. Pretty measured.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpCDI2ntT-E

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Shocking.... so as anyone with a brain and a non vaccine bias knew, this "doctor" that spoke to the school board is a quack

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Originally Posted by GoMuskies

I like this doctor's response. Pretty measured.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpCDI2ntT-E

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The end was the best part, "Don't go watching school board videos of school districts you don't live in, cause it just doesn't matter."

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Originally Posted by Xville

https://www.wthr.com/mobile/article/...9-fadc92a0016d

This as expected pretty much blows up the “doctor’s” speech.

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Thank you for the actual information (as opposed to name calling, etc).

Edit: Actually, you could not resist putting doctor in quotes, could you? There is no need for that. If he is a doctor, he is a doctor. That doesn't mean he is right or wrong, but neither does being wrong make him not a doctor. If you stick to the facts and leave off the personal attacks, more people will take you seriously and be more likely to come over to your side.

Principal

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Originally Posted by GoMuskies

I like this doctor's response. Pretty measured.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpCDI2ntT-E

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This approach is much more level-headed than the link posted by Xville. There are two ways to listen to what someone has to say: to understand and to criticize. If you want to make headway with those who are against being vaccinated, this is the way to do it. Calling names, spewing fallacies, putting doctor in quotes each time you refer to the doctor in the original video, etc, will result in people not listening to you.

Thank you for the post.

Principal

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Originally Posted by principal

Thank you for the actual information (as opposed to name calling, etc).

Edit: Actually, you could not resist putting doctor in quotes, could you? There is no need for that. If he is a doctor, he is a doctor. That doesn't mean he is right or wrong, but neither does being wrong make him not a doctor. If you stick to the facts and leave off the personal attacks, more people will take you seriously and be more likely to come over to your side.


Principal

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Trust me, I don’t need to be patronized, there are billions of people on my side. I care little for how people view or see me on an anonymous chat board, especially ones who post links to whackadoodle websites and videos but thank you for your ivory tower comments. No one is changing anyone’s minds here.

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Originally Posted by GoMuskies

I like this doctor's response. Pretty measured.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpCDI2ntT-E

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Good find. I listen to all kinds of stuff, but don’t fully trust anything I hear. This guy seems a lot more credible than the average voice on this subject.

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Originally Posted by Xville

Trust me, I don’t need to be patronized, there are billions of people on my side. I care little for how people view or see me on an anonymous chat board, especially ones who post links to whackadoodle websites and videos but thank you for your ivory tower comments. No one is changing anyone’s minds here.

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What exactly is your side?

Vaccination is good, not bad. There is a minimal risk, like everything..good outweighs that risk. The government and the media aren’t trying to track or kill us by giving us vaccines. Get the damn shot…( not saying you, just in general)

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Originally Posted by Xville

Vaccination is good, not bad. There is a minimal risk, like everything..good outweighs that risk. The government and the media aren’t trying to track or kill us by giving us vaccines. Get the damn shot…( not saying you, just in general)

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Agree the vax is a good thing but I’m not going to demand someone else agree and get it.