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08-04-2021, 02:22 PM
Lloyd Braun

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Sure, and there are age groups where it is unnecessary.

If you care about herd immunity and eradication then it is necessary to immunize as many people as quickly as possible regardless of their risk for complications from the disease. That’s why we are in the slow burn, not enough immunity early on and variants are emerging. That goes for the world not just the US.

If you don’t care about that herd immunity then it is unnecessary and to which I assume you are in the extreme end of the individualist-communalism/common good spectrum.
08-04-2021, 02:23 PM
Strange Brew

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lloyd Braun

If you care about herd immunity and eradication then it is necessary to immunize as many people as quickly as possible regardless of their risk for complications from the disease. That’s why we are in the slow burn, not enough immunity early on and variants are emerging. That goes for the world not just the US.

If you don’t care about that herd immunity then it is unnecessary and to which I assume you are in the extreme end of the individualist-communalism/common good spectrum.

At what % do we reach herd immunity?

FWIW, I’m happy to be as far away from communism/authoritarianism as possible.
08-04-2021, 02:26 PM
Lloyd Braun

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

At what % do we reach herd immunity?

Depends on transmissibility. The higher the transmissibility rate the higher the number needed. Most likely 80% or more.
08-04-2021, 02:29 PM
Strange Brew

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lloyd Braun

Depends on transmissibility. The higher the transmissibility rate the higher the number needed. Most likely 80% or more.

And how do you reach this conclusion? What is the current vax % plus natural immunity?
08-04-2021, 02:34 PM
Lloyd Braun

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

And how do you reach this conclusion? What is the current vax % plus natural immunity?

Epidemiologist formula which is not exact. Really it’s probably more like 90+% but there isn’t much data because the variants transmissibility is changing. Delta really driving this number up.

Regarding how many people have immunity is a moving target. We have something like 50% of the population fully vaccinated. Some people have both natural and vaccine immunity. Some people just have natural immunity. I’m not sure there’s a way to know. Further, immunity from both wanes over time and until we have an accurate antibody test to determine what level of antibodies is considered immune it could continue to be guesswork and booster shot(s).
08-04-2021, 02:37 PM
Strange Brew

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lloyd Braun

Epidemiologist formula which is not exact. Really it’s probably more like 90+% but there isn’t much data because the variants transmissibility is changing. Delta really driving this number up.

Regarding how many people have immunity is a moving target. We have something like 50% of the population fully vaccinated. Some people have both natural and vaccine immunity. Some people just have natural immunity. I’m not sure there’s a way to know. Further, immunity from both wanes over time and until we have an accurate antibody test to determine what level of antibodies is considered immune it could continue to be guesswork and booster shot(s).

So, no one knows but they know we must or else get a shot (that has breakthrough cases) because why exactly?
08-04-2021, 02:39 PM
Lloyd Braun

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

So, no one knows but they know we must or else get a shot (that has breakthrough cases) because why exactly?

Just because the exact number isn’t know doesn’t mean it isn’t attainable. The longer this goes on the higher chance we have another breakthrough variant.
08-04-2021, 02:41 PM
Strange Brew

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lloyd Braun

Just because the exact number isn’t know doesn’t mean it isn’t attainable. The longer this goes on the higher chance we have another breakthrough variant.

Or not. We must mandate because something might happen when we don’t know how it works now is a poor argument for mandates.
08-04-2021, 02:42 PM
Lloyd Braun

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Or not. We must mandate because something might happen when we don’t know how it works now is a poor argument for mandates.

The odds of there being no more variants are probably as close to zero as you can get.
08-04-2021, 02:44 PM
Strange Brew

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lloyd Braun

The odds of there being no more variants are probably as close to zero as you can get.

Likely, however so is the chance the current vaccine/therapy will stop them (breakthroughs, diminished immunity).

You’re still not addressing why everyone must get them. I’m all for the vax but you/the Gov’t are going to have to work harder to explain why everyone must have them.

And no. Because me and my college educated social club think so isn’t going to fly with many Americans.
08-04-2021, 03:18 PM
boozehound

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Sure, and there are age groups where it is unnecessary.

I guess it depends on your definition of 'necessary'. I assume that any age groups where the risk of getting the vaccine outweighs the risk of getting COVID won't be approved for the vaccine.

I have two 5 year olds and a 7 year old, and I'll probably get them vaccinated as soon as possible, unless credible evidence of significant side effects in their age group shows up in trials. I also am generally a believer in vaccines being a good thing though, and I'm not really suspicious about long term side effects.
08-04-2021, 03:24 PM
boozehound

Didn't we eradicate smallpox largely due to the development and distribution of a vaccine? Are you against kids being required to have the smallpox vaccine to attend school and play sports?
08-04-2021, 03:25 PM
Strange Brew

Quote:

Originally Posted by boozehound

I guess it depends on your definition of 'necessary'. I assume that any age groups where the risk of getting the vaccine outweighs the risk of getting COVID won't be approved for the vaccine.

I have two 5 year olds and a 7 year old, and I'll probably get them vaccinated as soon as possible, unless credible evidence of significant side effects in their age group shows up in trials. I also am generally a believer in vaccines being a good thing though, and I'm not really suspicious about long term side effects.

Necessary in terms of severe illness, hospitalization or death.
Sure, don’t want the kids sick for a couple of days but it’s not necessary to long term health assuming the vax is safe for kids.
08-04-2021, 04:13 PM
GIMMFD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Likely, however so is the chance the current vaccine/therapy will stop them (breakthroughs, diminished immunity).

You’re still not addressing why everyone must get them. I’m all for the vax but you/the Gov’t are going to have to work harder to explain why everyone must have them.

And no. Because me and my college educated social club think so isn’t going to fly with many Americans.

https://www.fox29.com/news/covid-19-...nated-patients , I agree with Dr. Kamel's take, same things happening in Orlando, a trip through the ED and ICU is chaos right now, obviously that's a small sample and doesn't tell the whole story, but honestly, my reason is nothing more than being selfish, but I don't think many health care providers can go through this shit again quite honestly.
08-04-2021, 04:15 PM
Xville

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Likely, however so is the chance the current vaccine/therapy will stop them (breakthroughs, diminished immunity).

You’re still not addressing why everyone must get them. I’m all for the vax but you/the Gov’t are going to have to work harder to explain why everyone must have them.

And no. Because me and my college educated social club think so isn’t going to fly with many Americans.

Pretty sure he’s already answered the question and so have medical experts….if you want any chance of eradicating this thing, people have to get vaccinated. It’s not going to happen otherwise.
08-04-2021, 07:10 PM
Strange Brew

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xville

Pretty sure he’s already answered the question and so have medical experts….if you want any chance of eradicating this thing, people have to get vaccinated. It’s not going to happen otherwise.

Eradicate? Are you high? The vax was meant to slow the spread and reduce hospitalizations. No one I’ve seen is talking about eradicating this anytime soon.
08-04-2021, 07:24 PM
xu82

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Eradicate? Are you high? The vax was meant to slow the spread and reduce hospitalizations. No one I’ve seen is talking about eradicating this anytime soon.

But aren’t slowing the spread and reducing hospitalizations good things on their own? Can’t eradication be a nice stretch goal? I don’t think you have to be high to dream for that (though it might help cope with this thread). Why people fight this so fervently is beyond me. Spare us all repeating the last 500 pages. It’s far more likely to help than hurt, so why just not do it? I know some people will try to respond to that rhetorical question, so let me tell you in advance I will most likely ignore your response. Even if you think you are smarter than everyone else, why not just play along? It’s not that hard, and there is virtually no downside.
08-04-2021, 07:33 PM
Strange Brew

Quote:

Originally Posted by xu82

But aren’t slowing the spread and reducing hospitalizations good things on their own? Can’t eradication be a nice stretch goal? I don’t think you have to be high to dream for that (though it might help cope with this thread). Why people fight this so fervently is beyond me. Spare us all repeating the last 500 pages. It’s far more likely to help than hurt, so why just not do it? I know some people will try to respond to that rhetorical question, so let me tell you in advance I will most likely ignore your response. Even if you think you are smarter than everyone else, why not just play along? It’s not that hard, and there is virtually no downside.

Yes, 82 and I played along. So did you and millions of others. Great job everybody!

Now, why the crusade to force everyone else to play along?
08-04-2021, 07:45 PM
xu82

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Yes, 82 and I played along. So did you and millions of others. Great job everybody!

Now, why the crusade to force everyone else to play along?

Because it just might help other people. How’s that? It’s not a crusade. I honestly don’t pretend to have all the answers, unlike some others. I’m not positive, but I’ll go with the odds.

I just don’t see as much downside as upside. Why argue that? I respect personal choice, but question the motivation. Because the government tried to make me? Grow up. Because they are tracking me when I get the shot? Seek help.
08-04-2021, 07:51 PM
Strange Brew

Quote:

Originally Posted by xu82

Because it just might help other people. How’s that? It’s not a crusade. I honestly don’t pretend to have all the answers, unlike some others. I’m not positive, but I’ll go with the odds.

I just don’t see as much downside as upside. Why argue that? I respect personal choice, but question the motivation. Because the government tried to make me? Grow up. Because they are tracking me when I get the shot? Seek help.

Fair. I don’t know people’s motivations and am always skeptical of Gov’t mandates (I quickly grew tired of the terror color codes post 911). There’s risk in a free society and frankly the Gov’t doesn’t have a good track record of relinquishing emergency powers (Patriot Act).
08-04-2021, 08:04 PM
xu82

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Fair. I don’t know people’s motivations and am always skeptical of Gov’t mandates (I quickly grew tired of the terror color codes post 911). There’s risk in a free society and frankly the Gov’t doesn’t have a good track record of relinquishing emergency powers (Patriot Act).

Soon enough it won’t be just the government telling you. I’m watching Olympics with my wife and her niece. My wife’s employer wants people back in the office, and you have to be vaccinated with few exceptions. The niece needs to prove vaccination to get back to class at Vanderbilt. It’s not just the big bad government, it’s organizations with common sense. The NFL has already let a couple high level, 7 figure earning coaches go for declining vaccinations. That would NOT be a hill I would want to die on without a better reason than “I don’t want to, and you can’t make me.”
08-04-2021, 08:10 PM
bjf123

Interesting take on being hesitant to get the vaccine. FWIW.

https://notthebee.com/article/if-you...read-right-now

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
08-04-2021, 08:23 PM
boozehound

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjf123

Interesting take on being hesitant to get the vaccine. FWIW.

https://notthebee.com/article/if-you...read-right-now

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What on earth is interesting about that take? It's just a website I've never heard of filled with screenshots of some guy on twitter babbling about the media being wrong and working in literally talking point and bogeyman that conservative outrage porn is based on. Trump. Russia. Brexit. Transgender people. Masks. Riots. The only think missed was immigrants, and honestly I didn't read it that closely so it might be in there somewhere. It's like a game of mad libs for conservative rage-filled talking points.

Also - just in case anyone out there was wondering if this was a biased conservative media source hoping to make money by whipping older middle class white men into a frenzy, this pops up on your screen.

https://i.imgur.com/fpkSD76.jpg

All in all it seems like a pretty bald-faced example of people being marketed to.
08-04-2021, 08:35 PM
xu82

Quote:

Originally Posted by boozehound

What on earth is interesting about that take? It's just a website I've never heard of filled with screenshots of some guy on twitter babbling about the media being wrong and working in literally talking point and bogeyman that conservative outrage porn is based on. Trump. Russia. Brexit. Transgender people. Masks. Riots. The only think missed was immigrants, and honestly I didn't read it that closely so it might be in there somewhere. It's like a game of mad libs for conservative rage-filled talking points.

Also - just in case anyone out there was wondering if this was a biased conservative media source hoping to make money by whipping older middle class white men into a frenzy, this pops up on your screen.

https://i.imgur.com/fpkSD76.jpg

All in all it seems like a pretty bald-faced example of people being marketed to.

So, did you join for free??? :-)

I saw nothing but a bunch of tweets I had zero interest in. Sometimes it’s better to think than to read. I’ve been exposed to more than enough on both sides to know that I feel more comfortable in between.
08-04-2021, 08:38 PM
boozehound

Quote:

Originally Posted by xu82

So, did you join for free??? :-)

I saw nothing but a bunch of tweets I had zero interest in. Sometimes it’s better to think than to read. I’ve been exposed to more than enough on both sides to know that I feel more comfortable in between.

Thank God I did! I was in danger of becoming 'woke'. I'm glad I was able to "comment, like, and share with like-minded people". I guess I give them credit for not even trying to hide the fact that they are an echo chamber.
08-04-2021, 09:48 PM
XU_Lou

Quote:

Originally Posted by boozehound

Thank God I did! I was in danger of becoming 'woke'. I'm glad I was able to "comment, like, and share with like-minded people". I guess I give them credit for not even trying to hide the fact that they are an echo chamber.

This is pretty funny....coming from the guy who only believes the propaganda from his own echo chambers....
08-05-2021, 10:33 AM
xu82

Quote:

Originally Posted by XU_Lou

This is pretty funny....coming from the guy who only believes the propaganda from his own echo chambers....

Why do you assume that everyone who doesn’t fully agree with you is an extremist at the opposite end of the spectrum?
08-05-2021, 02:10 PM
XU_Lou

Quote:

Originally Posted by xu82

Why do you assume that everyone who doesn’t fully agree with you is an extremist at the opposite end of the spectrum?

Aren't you making a big assumption??? Did you happen to read his comments?

Oh yea, you NPR libs kill me. You yourself think I'm an extremist because I don't think exactly like you. Look in the mirror and have some self-awareness for crying out loud!
08-05-2021, 03:46 PM
xu82

Quote:

Originally Posted by XU_Lou

Aren't you making a big assumption??? Did you happen to read his comments?

Oh yea, you NPR libs kill me. You yourself think I'm an extremist because I don't think exactly like you. Look in the mirror and have some self-awareness for crying out loud!

There you go again. Most people have views somewhere between yourself and the “NPR libs”, but if they don’t see the world as you do you leap to use that label. It’s not just one or the other, there is a spectrum. Believe it or not, there are almost certainly people right of yourself.
08-05-2021, 06:35 PM
XU_Lou

Quote:

Originally Posted by xu82

There you go again. Most people have views somewhere between yourself and the “NPR libs”, but if they don’t see the world as you do you leap to use that label. It’s not just one or the other, there is a spectrum. Believe it or not, there are almost certainly people right of yourself.

Look in the mirror clown - you're the one who thinks they own the truth...
08-05-2021, 07:55 PM
xu82

Quote:

Originally Posted by XU_Lou

Look in the mirror clown - you're the one who thinks they own the truth...

Wrong once again. I’m the first one to say I can’t know “the truth” for sure either way, so I’ll take what looks like the safest path. I’m not extreme either way. You seem to be struggling with this concept.
08-05-2021, 08:03 PM
Strange Brew

How about the vaccines are a good thing. It’s recommended we get them but it’s your choice. Then close this thread?
08-05-2021, 08:08 PM
XU_Lou

Quote:

Originally Posted by xu82

Wrong once again. I’m the first one to say I can’t know “the truth” for sure either way, so I’ll take what looks like the safest path. I’m not extreme either way. You seem to be struggling with this concept.

Give me a break - your mind is completely closed to anything that even remotely diverges from the media or Fauci. Quit pretending - no one is fooled by this asinine statement!
08-05-2021, 08:23 PM
Muskie in dayton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lloyd Braun

If you care about herd immunity and eradication then it is necessary to immunize as many people as quickly as possible regardless of their risk for complications from the disease. That’s why we are in the slow burn, not enough immunity early on and variants are emerging. That goes for the world not just the US.

If you don’t care about that herd immunity then it is unnecessary and to which I assume you are in the extreme end of the individualist-communalism/common good spectrum.

Seems like another good time to point out that if, like the CDC says, the vaccinated can still get and transmit the virus, vaccination will NOT help support herd immunity.
08-05-2021, 08:24 PM
Muskie in dayton

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjf123

Interesting take on being hesitant to get the vaccine. FWIW.

https://notthebee.com/article/if-you...read-right-now

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That sums it up perfectly. With how many times we’ve been lied to, it’s getting harder and harder to trust the media and the government.
08-05-2021, 08:25 PM
drudy23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muskie in dayton

That sums it up perfectly. With how many times we’ve been lied to, it’s getting harder and harder to trust the media and the government.

Getting?

I was there 20 years ago.
08-05-2021, 08:45 PM
xu82

Quote:

Originally Posted by XU_Lou

Give me a break - your mind is completely closed to anything that even remotely diverges from the media or Fauci. Quit pretending - no one is fooled by this asinine statement!

My mind is far from closed. Only those with closed minds stick to their position with such certainty to declare all others fools. Read what I wrote, and don’t tell me I’m lying. I’d say I’m far closer to the majority than you are.
08-05-2021, 08:47 PM
XU_Lou

Quote:

Originally Posted by xu82

My mind is far from closed. Only those with closed minds stick to their position with such certainty to declare all others fools. Read what I wrote, and don’t tell me I’m lying. I’d say I’m far closer to the majority than you are.

Hey, too much fear porn is making you blind...
08-05-2021, 08:49 PM
Lloyd Braun

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muskie in dayton

Seems like another good time to point out that if, like the CDC says, the vaccinated can still get and transmit the virus, vaccination will NOT help support herd immunity.

False assumption. You are implying that ALL vaccinated can get and transmit the virus which is unlikely true. Here is why.
08-05-2021, 08:53 PM
xu82

Quote:

Originally Posted by XU_Lou

Hey, too much fear porn is making you blind...

Is that really the best you have?

I’m back to thinking this is a joke.

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