Politics Thread

Printable View

08-24-2021, 12:32 PM
Xville

the silence is deafening
08-24-2021, 01:37 PM
boozehound

I don't think that there was any way we were going to exit Afghanistan without the opposing sides having ammunition for criticism. Whenever we left, the Taliban was going to take over and they were going to do fucked up shit to innocent people. It was the only thing that made me hesitant about withdrawal - it's going to be Syria, but possibly worse. Honestly though, if after 20 year this is what happens when we leave, we failed to establish a functional government anyways. It's a problem without a good solution.

Having said that, Biden's withdrawal has been a complete and total failure on nearly all fronts. I can't imagine that anyone can find anything good to say about it. Beginning with the flawed intelligence that they had that lead them to believe that they had 30+ days before the Taliban took over instead of 5 days (or however long it took), and continuing through to today. His messaging has been terrible as well, which raises further questions as to whether they know what the hell is going on over there (I don't think that they do). It's almost like they didn't really give any thought to the withdrawal plans and are surprised that it didn't go well. Obviously that's a massive policy mistake, with a very real human cost. Also we look like idiots, although that's secondary at this point.

I'm not sure where they go from here, but I think we have a duty to evacuate the people who helped us and are now in danger.
08-24-2021, 01:40 PM
paulxu

My "opinion" is that we are in a difficult place (after 20 years at war, American's longest) that Biden is doing a credible job of holding to an agreement between our country and the Taliban, negotiated by the former administration (without the actual government of Afghanistan being invited to the negotiations regarding their own country).

The people who seemed to have benefited most during those 20 years were the military and contractors, as countless reports detailed the corruption within the country itself; funds siphoned off, ghost soldiers on the payroll, etc. There were many good things that occurred, especially the education and freedom allowed to the women and girls. Perhaps those things are now embedded in such a large section of the population that some of the reforms will take hold.

As the evacuation proceeds, hopefully all Americans will get out. I'm befuddled why they didn't plan and exit the country in the last 6 months so that challenge would not be facing us. Thousands are coming out each day, although I see now that the Taliban is going to clamp down on Afghans leaving.

My opinion is that we should have left long ago. In 2002 or 2003 when we had completed the mission of eradicating the safe haven for Al Qeada. History should have taught us, our own and others, that there was little hope for long term success.

The decisions being made currently should be subject to a good review when the dust settles, and responsibility for missteps assigned with consequences as appropriate. Biden was dealt a tough hand. He's trying in good faith to deal with it with our country's interests first. I give him credit for that.
08-24-2021, 02:07 PM
Xville

Quote:

Originally Posted by paulxu

My "opinion" is that we are in a difficult place (after 20 years at war, American's longest) that Biden is doing a credible job of holding to an agreement between our country and the Taliban, negotiated by the former administration (without the actual government of Afghanistan being invited to the negotiations regarding their own country).

The people who seemed to have benefited most during those 20 years were the military and contractors, as countless reports detailed the corruption within the country itself; funds siphoned off, ghost soldiers on the payroll, etc. There were many good things that occurred, especially the education and freedom allowed to the women and girls. Perhaps those things are now embedded in such a large section of the population that some of the reforms will take hold.

As the evacuation proceeds, hopefully all Americans will get out. I'm befuddled why they didn't plan and exit the country in the last 6 months so that challenge would not be facing us. Thousands are coming out each day, although I see now that the Taliban is going to clamp down on Afghans leaving.

My opinion is that we should have left long ago. In 2002 or 2003 when we had completed the mission of eradicating the safe haven for Al Qeada. History should have taught us, our own and others, that there was little hope for long term success.

The decisions being made currently should be subject to a good review when the dust settles, and responsibility for missteps assigned with consequences as appropriate. Biden was dealt a tough hand. He's trying in good faith to deal with it with our country's interests first. I give him credit for that.

You should run for office with your skill of deflecting. Giving someone the benefit of the doubt, remember that next time someone you didn't vote for is in office. You quickly blamed Trump every time Pelosi or AOC took a dump.
08-24-2021, 02:12 PM
Xville

Quote:

Originally Posted by boozehound

I don't think that there was any way we were going to exit Afghanistan without the opposing sides having ammunition for criticism. Whenever we left, the Taliban was going to take over and they were going to do fucked up shit to innocent people. It was the only thing that made me hesitant about withdrawal - it's going to be Syria, but possibly worse. Honestly though, if after 20 year this is what happens when we leave, we failed to establish a functional government anyways. It's a problem without a good solution.

Having said that, Biden's withdrawal has been a complete and total failure on nearly all fronts. I can't imagine that anyone can find anything good to say about it. Beginning with the flawed intelligence that they had that lead them to believe that they had 30+ days before the Taliban took over instead of 5 days (or however long it took), and continuing through to today. His messaging has been terrible as well, which raises further questions as to whether they know what the hell is going on over there (I don't think that they do). It's almost like they didn't really give any thought to the withdrawal plans and are surprised that it didn't go well. Obviously that's a massive policy mistake, with a very real human cost. Also we look like idiots, although that's secondary at this point.

I'm not sure where they go from here, but I think we have a duty to evacuate the people who helped us and are now in danger.

I concur with most of this...that area of the world is just one big effing mess and has been for thousands of years...It would take generations upon generations to change things and then at what cost? I do wonder though...why not keep status quo there in terms of military presence...or maybe just a little bit less of presence there instead of a full pull out?
08-24-2021, 03:03 PM
Masterofreality

Quote:

Originally Posted by paulxu

My "opinion" is that we are in a difficult place (after 20 years at war, American's longest) that Biden is doing a credible job of holding to an agreement between our country and the Taliban, negotiated by the former administration….

The decisions being made currently should be subject to a good review when the dust settles, and responsibility for missteps assigned with consequences as appropriate. Biden was dealt a tough hand. He's trying in good faith to deal with it with our country's interests first. I give him credit for that.

The hand that was dealt was self dealt by Biden.
Abandoning Bagran Air Base prematurely was NOT part of the agreement negotiated by Trump.
Not providing any air cover for Afghan troops and our remaining troops was NOT part of the original agreement.
Leaving US Blackhawk Helicopters, gunnery and Humvees was NOT part of the original agreement.
Not consulting with NATO allies of what the arrangements were going to be to leave was NOT PART of the original agreement.
Chaos at the airport with people falling from Airplanes was not part of the original agreement.
Dude. 75% of America thinks Biden has failed miserably in this. Our allies, the British Parliament has censured the President.
Enough of your deflection and “waiting to see the final outcome” when you gave the previous President zero time or leeway on anything.
Plus… Biden lies.
08-24-2021, 04:09 PM
Smails

Quote:

Originally Posted by paulxu

My "opinion" is that we are in a difficult place (after 20 years at war, American's longest) that Biden is doing a credible job of holding to an agreement between our country and the Taliban, negotiated by the former administration (without the actual government of Afghanistan being invited to the negotiations regarding their own country).

The people who seemed to have benefited most during those 20 years were the military and contractors, as countless reports detailed the corruption within the country itself; funds siphoned off, ghost soldiers on the payroll, etc. There were many good things that occurred, especially the education and freedom allowed to the women and girls. Perhaps those things are now embedded in such a large section of the population that some of the reforms will take hold.

As the evacuation proceeds, hopefully all Americans will get out. I'm befuddled why they didn't plan and exit the country in the last 6 months so that challenge would not be facing us. Thousands are coming out each day, although I see now that the Taliban is going to clamp down on Afghans leaving.

My opinion is that we should have left long ago. In 2002 or 2003 when we had completed the mission of eradicating the safe haven for Al Qeada. History should have taught us, our own and others, that there was little hope for long term success.

The decisions being made currently should be subject to a good review when the dust settles, and responsibility for missteps assigned with consequences as appropriate. Biden was dealt a tough hand. He's trying in good faith to deal with it with our country's interests first. I give him credit for that.

You literally didn't answer a singe question I asked...literally. This is the issue with political discourse today. Too many people double down instead of looking objectively at a situation. What a chickenshit response.
08-24-2021, 04:55 PM
boozehound

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xville

I concur with most of this...that area of the world is just one big effing mess and has been for thousands of years...It would take generations upon generations to change things and then at what cost? I do wonder though...why not keep status quo there in terms of military presence...or maybe just a little bit less of presence there instead of a full pull out?

That was kind of what I thought at the time, and sort of still think, but I'm not fully educated on the situation. If it's just a matter of having 5K troops sitting there to keep a lid on the Taliban I tend to think it might be worth it to keep a presence, but if there is constant active fighting and loss of U.S. lives then I would be more in favor of pulling out.

Edit: It looks like there have been 92 U.S. Military deaths in Afghanistan since 2014, so averaging about 12 per year. That might be worth preventing the atrocities that are about to go down, but I don't really get to make that call.
08-24-2021, 05:55 PM
Strange Brew

Quote:

Originally Posted by boozehound

That was kind of what I thought at the time, and sort of still think, but I'm not fully educated on the situation. If it's just a matter of having 5K troops sitting there to keep a lid on the Taliban I tend to think it might be worth it to keep a presence, but if there is constant active fighting and loss of U.S. lives then I would be more in favor of pulling out.

Edit: It looks like there have been 92 U.S. Military deaths in Afghanistan since 2014, so averaging about 12 per year. That might be worth preventing the atrocities that are about to go down, but I don't really get to make that call.

Agree and there was no reason to leave the equipment/ammo behind. The Taliban is now in control of the 26th largest Air Force in the world.
08-24-2021, 07:18 PM
boozehound

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Agree and there was no reason to leave the equipment/ammo behind. The Taliban is now in control of the 26th largest Air Force in the world.

I assume we left the weapons and ammo behind so that the Afghani 'soldiers' we had been fighting with could use them to defend their Country against the Taliban, but yeah. We seem to have really miscalculated their willingness and/or ability to fight. We should probably go back in and blow that shit up once we get our people out.

Just a complete fucking blunder all around.