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Jumpy
04-23-2008, 10:51 AM
Can't believe this hasn't been posted yet, but Wayne Krivsky got canned today. Can't say that anyone can be surprised. Castellini had Walt Jockety breathing down his neck and everyone knew it was just a matter of time.

Now, if only Jockety could get some right handed hitting (and wake up the left handed bats) in the lineup, the Reds may be able to salvage the season.

Juice
04-23-2008, 10:59 AM
Krivsky made some really nice moves but also made some dumb ones, so in essence I see much of his a tenure as a wash. I thought he did a nice job compared to the previous GMs (who did not have the money to spend like Wayne). The good thing about this is that Jocketty is here, ready to take over with the support of his owner.
The one right handed bat I think the Reds screwed up on, and I do not know who made the decision on, was Jorge Cantu. He is having a nice season with the Marlins and can play many different positions. The Freel contract is a joke and I never saw what everyone saw in Freel. For some reason, this city loves "hustle" but will look past Freel's lack of talent and intelligence. He is a bad baseball player, with an untradeable contract.

Billy
04-23-2008, 11:19 AM
Krivsky made some really nice moves but also made some dumb ones, so in essence I see much of his a tenure as a wash. I thought he did a nice job compared to the previous GMs (who did not have the money to spend like Wayne). The good thing about this is that Jocketty is here, ready to take over with the support of his owner.
The one right handed bat I think the Reds screwed up on, and I do not know who made the decision on, was Jorge Cantu. He is having a nice season with the Marlins and can play many different positions. The Freel contract is a joke and I never saw what everyone saw in Freel. For some reason, this city loves "hustle" but will look past Freel's lack of talent and intelligence. He is a bad baseball player, with an untradeable contract.

Cantu has the defensive aptitude of my 88 year-old grandmother.

On the other hand, you guys still have Dusty! I enjoyed his quote from Sunday's Enquirer game story:

Baker also championed Encarnacion. He said the third baseman went from a possible scapegoat to a hero.

"I'm happy for him because this guy bleeds internally, big-time," Baker said.

...and this one too:

Baker didn't realize until Sunday that Patterson had been struggling so mightily on offense. He's hitless in his last 22 at-bats. In his last 11 games, he's 1-for-29.

"It didn't seem like that because he's not striking out. Most of the time when a guy is 0-for-something, he's got a bunch of punch-outs in there," Baker said.

Good luck to you all.

XU 87
04-23-2008, 11:29 AM
I would agree that Krivsky did some good things and some bad things. The trade with Washington was a disaster (although the Reds still have a AA pitcher who looks promising). And in the last two years, the Reds have relased players who have a combined $7.5 million in salary. That's a lot of wasted $$$, particularly for a small market team. Acquiring injury prone Gonzalez hasn't worked too well either. Acquiring Patterson and his career sub .300 OBP looks like a mistake.

But he did bring in Brandon Phillips. And he acquired Josh Hamilton.

But the roster is sort of mess right now with too many left handed hitters, too many guys who don't make contact, and high salaried players with no place to play (Freel, the backup 1b, and possibly Gonzalez when he returns).

Someone who purportedly knows someone with the Reds front office told me last summer that Krivsky would get fired this year. He said that the Castellinis think Krivsky is a good baseball guy but also is a terrible manager of people.

I wonder if we'll see Jay Bruce or possibly Homer Bailey, although it still appears that Bailey needs to work on his curve and control.

Jumpy
04-23-2008, 11:38 AM
Cantu has the defensive aptitude of my 88 year-old grandmother.

On the other hand, you guys still have Dusty! I enjoyed his quote from Sunday's Enquirer game story:

Baker also championed Encarnacion. He said the third baseman went from a possible scapegoat to a hero.

"I'm happy for him because this guy bleeds internally, big-time," Baker said.

...and this one too:

Baker didn't realize until Sunday that Patterson had been struggling so mightily on offense. He's hitless in his last 22 at-bats. In his last 11 games, he's 1-for-29.

"It didn't seem like that because he's not striking out. Most of the time when a guy is 0-for-something, he's got a bunch of punch-outs in there," Baker said.

Good luck to you all.


I will admit, the cubbies have the better of the two mangers. I remember, when Castellini bought the Reds, being certain that sweet Lou was going to come back (because of his close relationship with Castellini). I admit that I was cursing the Cubs the day they threw the bank at him.

Smails
04-23-2008, 11:41 AM
Cantu has the defensive aptitude of my 88 year-old grandmother.

On the other hand, you guys still have Dusty! I enjoyed his quote from Sunday's Enquirer game story:

Baker also championed Encarnacion. He said the third baseman went from a possible scapegoat to a hero.

"I'm happy for him because this guy bleeds internally, big-time," Baker said.

...and this one too:

Baker didn't realize until Sunday that Patterson had been struggling so mightily on offense. He's hitless in his last 22 at-bats. In his last 11 games, he's 1-for-29.

"It didn't seem like that because he's not striking out. Most of the time when a guy is 0-for-something, he's got a bunch of punch-outs in there," Baker said.

Good luck to you all.

Thanks for the recap....we know you don't like Dusty, but you do realize that as Reds fans we read the enquirer on a regular basis.

Jumpy
04-23-2008, 11:42 AM
Krivsky made some really nice moves but also made some dumb ones, so in essence I see much of his a tenure as a wash. I thought he did a nice job compared to the previous GMs (who did not have the money to spend like Wayne). The good thing about this is that Jocketty is here, ready to take over with the support of his owner.
The one right handed bat I think the Reds screwed up on, and I do not know who made the decision on, was Jorge Cantu. He is having a nice season with the Marlins and can play many different positions. The Freel contract is a joke and I never saw what everyone saw in Freel. For some reason, this city loves "hustle" but will look past Freel's lack of talent and intelligence. He is a bad baseball player, with an untradeable contract.


I love the Philips deal. It will go down as one of the Reds' best ever. I liked the Arroyo deal, but have soured on it lately because he has come down to earth and shown that he is a back of the rotation starter in either league. Still, I guess we got the better of it because Wily Mo isn't doing anything at all.

XU 87
04-23-2008, 11:47 AM
Yea, I suppose the Arroya deal was pretty good, relatively speaking. But I agree that Arroya is starting to show that he's a 4 or 5 pitcher.

Billy
04-23-2008, 11:51 AM
Thanks for the recap....we know you don't like Dusty, but you do realize that as Reds fans we read the enquirer on a regular basis.

If I were a Reds Fan, I'd stop reading the game stories unless you want to become really annoyed by that thing that's running your baseball team. I only read it because he's not my problem any longer...so it's funny.

The guy in Milwaukee is also a clown. Cub Fans are currently torn as to which guy is worse. Either way, we hope they both manage within the NL Central until they are 110 years-old.

Jocketty knows what he's doing. This is a good day for Cincinnati. Todd Portune should probably file another one of his frivolous lawsuits and ask the court to compel him to take the same job with the Bengals.

Smails
04-23-2008, 11:52 AM
I wouldn't necessarily call the Washington deal a disaster. Majewski has sucked but word down on the farm is that Billy Bray is finally healthy and looking like a very viable left handed arm for the pen...which is always something you need. Kearns is turning into a high ceiling bust and Lopez has been moved to second base and doens't have a single dinger and a whopping 2 RBI's. That deal looks more like passing the trash than a disaster for Cincinnati...

Raoul Duke
04-23-2008, 11:56 AM
Cantu has the defensive aptitude of my 88 year-old grandmother.

On the other hand, you guys still have Dusty! I enjoyed his quote from Sunday's Enquirer game story:

Baker also championed Encarnacion. He said the third baseman went from a possible scapegoat to a hero.

"I'm happy for him because this guy bleeds internally, big-time," Baker said.

...and this one too:

Baker didn't realize until Sunday that Patterson had been struggling so mightily on offense. He's hitless in his last 22 at-bats. In his last 11 games, he's 1-for-29.

"It didn't seem like that because he's not striking out. Most of the time when a guy is 0-for-something, he's got a bunch of punch-outs in there," Baker said.

Good luck to you all.

I hate to admit it, but I've started to notice stuff like this too (as a Reds fan). There was a quote the other day, can't remember who Baker was talking about, but it was something like 'I'm not sure, but it seems like he's [Freel?] a pretty good hitter off of right-handers.' Seems like? Isn't it your job to actually find that out?

Smails
04-23-2008, 11:58 AM
"Jocketty knows what he's doing. This is a good day for Cincinnati. Todd Portune should probably file another one of his frivolous lawsuits and ask the court to compel him to take the same job with the Bengals."
__________________

Nice...

I can actually hear you laughing every time Dusty gets quoted

Billy
04-23-2008, 12:07 PM
I hate to admit it, but I've started to notice stuff like this too (as a Reds fan). There was a quote the other day, can't remember who Baker was talking about, but it was something like 'I'm not sure, but it seems like he's [Freel?] a pretty good hitter off of right-handers.' Seems like? Isn't it your job to actually find that out?

This from last night talking about another one of his crappy recycling projects from his days with the Cubs, Jerry Hairston Jr:

“He had a great game,” Baker said. “He was hot in Triple-A. Most times, when you’re hot in one place, you’ll be hot anywhere.”

OK, then.

XU 87
04-23-2008, 12:11 PM
Billy, what do you want Dusty to say about Hairston, that he will probably suck when he gets to the majors?

Smails
04-23-2008, 12:13 PM
This from last night talking about another one of his crappy recycling projects from his days with the Cubs, Jerry Hairston Jr:

“He had a great game,” Baker said. “He was hot in Triple-A. Most times, when you’re hot in one place, you’ll be hot anywhere.”

OK, then.

Yeah that was a doozy.... because I've never heard of a player tearing it up at triple A and stepping on his yang at the major league level. See: Larsen, Brandon

Billy
04-23-2008, 12:16 PM
Billy, what do you want Dusty to say about Hairston, that he will probably suck when he gets to the majors?

I'm hardly implying that. I am implying that maybe the things he does say should occasionally make just a modicum of sense if he expects to be taken seriously.

He makes me thankful for Sean Miller.

Billy
04-23-2008, 12:31 PM
Yeah that was a doozy.... because I've never heard of a player tearing it up at triple A and stepping on his yang at the major league level. See: Larsen, Brandon

Not to mention, this is damn far from being Brandon Larsen (one-time monster prospect). This is Jerry Hairston, Jr. A 32 year-old utilityman (who he has managed before) with a career OPS of .684.

I don't care what he was doing in AAA. There's zero chance that he's going to show up in Cincinnati and start hitting like Jeff Keppinger. Does he actually believe this...or is he just aimlessly talking with the hopes that no one's listening?

Anyway, I'm sorry about the Dusty bashing. I just can't help myself. Dusty is a special kind of lost.

Smails
04-23-2008, 12:39 PM
In Dusty's defense, I think he's buying as much time as possible until Bruce is deemed ready. However, the thought of adding another left handed bat to the line-up scares the bejeezus out of me. Alright Walt...get your ass to work

Jumpy
04-23-2008, 12:50 PM
Now that I think about it, I would be remiss to mention the whole Hamilton/Volquez deal. Hamilton just sort of fell into his lap, but to turn around and get a potential frontline starter out of him, is unbelieveable.

You can argue that Hamilton should have never left, and I'm honestly on the fence about it, but getting Volquez for him was a great trade off.

XU 87
04-23-2008, 12:58 PM
I wouldn't necessarily call the Washington deal a disaster. Majewski has sucked but word down on the farm is that Billy Bray is finally healthy and looking like a very viable left handed arm for the pen...which is always something you need. Kearns is turning into a high ceiling bust and Lopez has been moved to second base and doens't have a single dinger and a whopping 2 RBI's. That deal looks more like passing the trash than a disaster for Cincinnati...

I would call it a disaster from the standpoint that the Reds gave up two productive starters and, so far, got nothing in return. If Bray and the AA pitcher become productive major leaguers, then the deal will be better.

Billy
04-23-2008, 01:14 PM
Now that I think about it, I would be remiss to mention the whole Hamilton/Volquez deal. Hamilton just sort of fell into his lap, but to turn around and get a potential frontline starter out of him, is unbelieveable.

You can argue that Hamilton should have never left, and I'm honestly on the fence about it, but getting Volquez for him was a great trade off.

It's not like Hamilton was a load of untalented garbage with no value...especially after putting up a .922 in his first MLB season. There wouldn't have been any reason to deal him if not for something worthwhile.

Volquez still walks too many guys for me to be 100% sold on him. If you look at his minor league numbers, his control has actually become considerably worse since Texas drafted him. The hitters in the Bigs are so good with pitch recognition, that they will eat up a starter who walks 4-5 guys/9 innings.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/V/Edinson-Volquez.shtml

At 24, he's not a sure fire cinch to rectify that. He has sick stuff...but that control trend must have been a huge concern to the Rangers. That's a team that can't afford to trade pitching for hitting all things being equal.

Smails
04-23-2008, 01:24 PM
I would call it a disaster from the standpoint that the Reds gave up two productive starters and, so far, got nothing in return. If Bray and the AA pitcher become productive major leaguers, then the deal will be better.

Fair enough, but calling Kearns (.263 lifetime average .213 right now) and Lopez (.257 lifetime and .960 fielding) productive starters is a bit of a stretch. We got some arms that may or may not work out but Kearns and Lopez wouldn't be starting on this team this year...and that's saying something.

Juice
04-23-2008, 01:30 PM
Fair enough, but calling Kearns (.263 lifetime average .213 right now) and Lopez (.257 lifetime and .960 fielding) productive starters is a bit of a stretch. We got some arms that may or may not work out but Kearns and Lopez wouldn't be starting on this team this year...and that's saying something.

I agree. If we don't get rid of Lopez then there is no room for Gonzalez/Keppinger. And if there is no Kearns, we cannot move Griffey to right, which was absolutely needed. Though these results were not intended, they worked out ok in the end. Plus, I think Bray will eventually be brought up and Darryl Thompson is pitching well in AA Chattanooga. Brendan Harris, who was another guy in the deal, is also a decent player that I would have liked the Reds keep to see how he would do in AAA and maybe serving as a utility guy for us (if we did not have crappy players like Castro and Freel taking up valuable roster spots).

Smails
04-23-2008, 01:41 PM
It's not like Hamilton was a load of untalented garbage with no value...especially after putting up a .922 in his first MLB season. There wouldn't have been any reason to deal him if not for something worthwhile.

Volquez still walks too many guys for me to be 100% sold on him. If you look at his minor league numbers, his control has actually become considerably worse since Texas drafted him. The hitters in the Bigs are so good with pitch recognition, that they will eat up a starter who walks 4-5 guys/9 innings.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/V/Edinson-Volquez.shtml

At 24, he's not a sure fire cinch to rectify that. He has sick stuff...but that control trend must have been a huge concern to the Rangers. That's a team that can't afford to trade pitching for hitting all things being equal.

Career BB/9 innings

Nolan Ryan: 4.67
Pedro: 3.56
Brandon Webb: 3.15
Big Z: 4.15

I'm not saying you're completely off base by any stretch, but electric shit cures a lot of ills. Volquez's change-up is sickening and Mario Soto said it's the best he's seen. I definitely want him to be more efficient and walk less people, but you can get away with some free passes if you have the ability to strike out the side.

And I'm not comparing him as a picher to the group above, but from a pure stuff perspective he's got it. I'm more concerned about injury with him than anything else...

Billy
04-23-2008, 01:41 PM
I still contend that Krivsky got bent over on that trade. The trade was made in 2006 when the Reds were still in remote contention...and Majewski was the only of those guys had any possibility of coming in and helping them catch Saint Louis. Of course, it's not Krivsky's fault (I guess) that he traded for a guy who was likely already injured.

If the Reds don't make that trade, they might win the Central that year...seriously. We'll never know for sure...but nothing about the guys they got from Bowden helped them thta year. It's now 2008, and nothing concrete has occurred to change that.

I don't really consider the fact that it "cleared space" to be a good argument. They could have easily dumped those guys after the season if they needed that benefit.

Jumpy
04-23-2008, 01:43 PM
It's not like Hamilton was a load of untalented garbage with no value...especially after putting up a .922 in his first MLB season. There wouldn't have been any reason to deal him if not for something worthwhile.

Volquez still walks too many guys for me to be 100% sold on him. If you look at his minor league numbers, his control has actually become considerably worse since Texas drafted him. The hitters in the Bigs are so good with pitch recognition, that they will eat up a starter who walks 4-5 guys/9 innings.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/V/Edinson-Volquez.shtml

At 24, he's not a sure fire cinch to rectify that. He has sick stuff...but that control trend must have been a huge concern to the Rangers. That's a team that can't afford to trade pitching for hitting all things being equal.


Never said that he was garbage. Both players have potential, and both have huge question marks. Like I said before, I am on the fence about Hamilton leaving. the guy can play, but how well will he hold up after treating his body the way he did for so long? What I do know is that getting a guy like Volquez for him makes it a lot easier. Looking at his numbers, I see a guy who throws in the mid-90's effortlessly, has a wicked changeup, and a 2:1 strikeout to walk ratio. Besides, without bothering to look up the numbers myself, I would be willing to bet that the average walks/9 for major league starters is around 4. So, that makes him average at worst. Not BP fodder as you suggest.

XU 87
04-23-2008, 01:51 PM
Fair enough, but calling Kearns (.263 lifetime average .213 right now) and Lopez (.257 lifetime and .960 fielding) productive starters is a bit of a stretch. We got some arms that may or may not work out but Kearns and Lopez wouldn't be starting on this team this year...and that's saying something.

Kearns and Lopez were both productive, but not great, players when they played for the Reds. They both have regressed since being traded.

At the time, the trade filled a need. The problem is that so far the Reds haven't gotten anything in return.

Billy
04-23-2008, 01:55 PM
Career BB/9 innings

Nolan Ryan: 4.67
Pedro: 3.56
Brandon Webb: 3.15
Big Z: 4.15

I'm not saying you're completely off base by any stretch, but electric shit cures a lot of ills. Volquez's change-up is sickening and Mario Soto said it's the best he's seen. I definitely want him to be more efficient and walk less people, but you can get away with some free passes if you have the ability to strike out the side.

And I'm not comparing him as a picher to the group above, but from a pure stuff perspective he's got it. I'm more concerned about injury with him than anything else...

I agree.

I can tell you from watching Zambrano all the time, that when he pitches "away from contact", that's when he struggles. If you happened to see him on Monday night on ESPN against the Mets, he did the opposite, and he was filthy. He throws a "heavy ball" that moves a lot...make guys hit it.

Volquez seems to keep the ball on the ground, and generally in the ballpark. There's no doubt his change-up is phenominal. I think he's going to be good. He could be very, very good. I was just bringing this up in the context of what they got for Josh Hamilton, who is a former #1 overall pick. Neither have a long track record of success...but Volquez's gtrack record is miniscule...and his minor league numbers don't blow anyone away. And as you said, there are always the injuries with pitchers.

If his BB's stay down in the low-mid 3s, he's definitely going to win with that stuff. 4.5-5which has been his MLB track record (through only 100 IP)...he's going to be in trouble.

Smails
04-23-2008, 01:58 PM
I tend to judge trades on production of the players involved and to date neither team has benefited much. Getting bent over would imply that one team has benefitted waaaay more than the other and that just hasn't happened.

XU 87
04-23-2008, 04:16 PM
I look at trades a little differently. Let's suppose Team A trades Sandy Koufax for two middle relief pitchers, both of whom make the team and have some minimal success for two years. But the day after the trade Koufax unexpectedly blows his arm out and never pitches again.

One school of thought would say it's a good trade since Koufax never pitched again and the other team got two relatively productive relief pitchers out of it. The other school would say that it's a bad trade because Team A should have, and could have, gotten way more than two middle relief pitchers, irrespective of what eventually happened to Koufax. I am in the camp of the latter.

vee4xu
04-23-2008, 06:18 PM
All due respect to my fellow Muskie fans who also holler for the Reds, but the Phillips deal came gift wrapped from the Indians. The guy hadn't hit over .200 both at the Triple AAA and Major League levels and was out of options. He got beat out in spring training and the Indians had to give him is unconditional release, or trade him for whatever they could get. So, this deal for falls in the "rather be lucky than good" category for the Great Krivsky. Now, that said, it would be nice to have Phillips in Cleveland today, but saying that is the same as saying I lost a million dollars when you never had it in the first place. Good fortune by the Reds? Absolutely. Good maneuvering? They had nothing to lose. They traded for a stiff and he turned out to be an All Star. Krivsky wasn't good enough to know that when he made that deal. It was pure speculation and it turned up aces for the Reds.

XU 87
04-23-2008, 06:33 PM
On the other hand, out of 28 other MLB teams, it was the Reds who got him. So I give him credit for that. The same goes for Josh Hamilton.

vee4xu
04-23-2008, 07:12 PM
On the other hand, out of 28 other MLB teams, it was the Reds who got him. So I give him credit for that. The same goes for Josh Hamilton.

Don't disagree with you on that point.

AdamtheFlyer
04-23-2008, 10:46 PM
You know, it may be very early, but the more I read about this, the more I am completely uncomfortable about the future. Castellini is way too impatient for Cincinnati. Yes Bob, we desperately want a title, but we aren't going anywhere if this isn't that year. Keep improving the organization and we'll be there, and the wins will come.

Krivsky's faults, and they were pretty glaring faults, were mainly to bridge the gap between today and tomorrow. I can forgive that, even if most of his FA signings were atrocious in just about every possible respect. The only one that made sense was Cordero. He overpaid like crazy for him, but he was needed to stabilize the bullpen. If your boss is OKing that money for a truly quality piece, which Castellini was, then it was a good signing.

As far as "the trade"...if Darryl Thompson ever has just one good start for the Reds, Krivsky will be the unquestioned winner of that trade. Forget Majewski, Kearns, Lopez, Wagner, and Harris...none of those guys are/will ever be noteworthy MLB players. The best of the lot, Kearns, is a pretty good hitter at best. The Reds ended up with a good, young, lefty bullpen arm and a really good prospect. One has shown he's capable of getting MLB hitters out. If the other does...Krivsky gets the TKO. I said the same thing the day it happened. That trade was Krivsky in a nutshell. Attempt to help the now while really trying to help the future. He's great at the latter, but the former ultimately was his undoing.

I have all the respect in the world for Wayne Krivksy, even if he was an average GM overall. He never sacrificed his will to build for the future above all else. It would have been real easy to come up with an offer to get Bedard. He refused because he thought the future without making that deal was brighter than the present after making it.

Castellini has all his ducks in a row now. He has "his" guys in place across the board. The tale of his ownership will be written over the next 2-3 years. You can only cry "win now" for so long before people laugh you back to canned fruit.