U.s. Soccer woes: Klinsman ship leaking?

[Emp]

I can't believe there hasn't been any gnashing of teeth here on the weekend's debacles.

KLINSMAN has been whining about how college programs are stunting the growth of the Under 23s. I don't know enough to opine on that issue, but ah that's part of the U.S. system, and it's not going to change.

Could it be we just don't have the horses?

[X-band '01]

It does mean that the US doesn't qualify for the 2017 Confederations Cup, but it's not going to lead to wailing and grinding of teeth among casual fans.

[xubrew]

I'm not going to go so far to say that I don't think it could be, and should be, better. But we are not among the world's elite. We're good enough to maybe pull an upset on occasion, but at the end of the day we're a good program. Not world class.

In college basketball terms, we're New Mexico, or BYU, or any number of programs that are NCAA Tournament regulars, but more often than not are wearing the visiting uniforms in the Round of 64. Good, but not elite. Maybe once in a lifetime we'll string together some upsets and go deep into the World Cup, but it's not the norm. I mean, I get being upset. But, at the same time I can't help but think it would be silly for BYU or New Mexico to be gnashing their teeth because they're being outperformed by Duke and Kentucky. That's kinda how we sound like when we can't figure out why we're not better. We're just not.

Mexico, like us, is good but not great. So, there you have it.

[XMuskieFTW]

Jurgen has to go. Everything he was supposed to bring to the table has not come to fruition.

He came in as a coach with an attacking mindset, yet we played behind the ball 90% of the game Saturday. The only time we attacked we actually scored. Yet as soon as we scored, we were back to ten behind the ball.

His lack of growth in terms of finding good youth players over the past 5 year is alarming. The team Saturday was largely a Bob Bradley side with just a few younger guys sprinkled in. I would have expected a younger side by now, but instead he went with slow, aging veterans because honestly they're our best side right now and that's sad.

The u23s are a complete debacle. There is no reason they should lose to Honduras playing at home with the Olympics on the line. Now we are going to have a hard time qualifying. Playing Colombia in Brazil does not sound like an easy task.

Lastly, his personal preferences are downright mindblowing. The fact that we see Wondolowski getting callups still is unreal. He adds nothing and is old. Also the Julian Green selection over Landon in the last WC is even more of a joke now. Julian couldn't even make the u23 side due to his poor form.

All in all, he needs to be sacked.

[LA Muskie]

I'm a huge Klinsman fan in general. But I've never thought he was the right guy to lead our player pool -- we just don't have the talent or the tactics to fully take advantage of his system. (Incidentally, I thought Bradley was the right guy and that he got a horribly raw deal -- and I still do.)

That said, every time we lose a game -- even an admittedly tough matchup against a team like Mexico -- people question whether we should move on from Klinsman. His rope is absurdly short. I think Gulati got enamored with the shine of his star. But having hired him, I think we need to let it play out. Have some patience and let the guy implement his plan. Like Brew points out, it's not like we're a world-class squad...

[ammtd34]

I like Jurgen as a tactician, but LA is right that our players don't fit his style very well. I've been a huge fan of his but I think his time is up. We didn't qualify for the confederations cup against a Mexico team that honestly isn't very good. As technical director, he's ultimately responsible for the youth national teams as well, and our U23s will need a miracle to qualify for the Olympics. If they don't get it, they'll fail to qualify for the second straight cycle.

I agree with him on college, though. We point to guys like Jordan Morris as our young talent. Jordan Morris is 2 months older than Raheem Sterling. He's trying to change the youth system in the US, and honestly, I'm surprised it's being met with so much resistance from DOC's and club chairmen, unless the USSF's goal is something other than putting a world class national team on the field.

[Xville]

I'm a huge Klinsman fan in general. But I've never thought he was the right guy to lead our player pool -- we just don't have the talent or the tactics to fully take advantage of his system. (Incidentally, I thought Bradley was the right guy and that he got a horribly raw deal -- and I still do.)

That said, every time we lose a game -- even an admittedly tough matchup against a team like Mexico -- people question whether we should move on from Klinsman. His rope is absurdly short. I think Gulati got enamored with the shine of his star. But having hired him, I think we need to let it play out. Have some patience and let the guy implement his plan. Like Brew points out, it's not like we're a world-class squad...

It's been four years....I understand it is a process, but come on. People will point to things like winning against the Netherlands in a friendly (like that actually means squat) as a sign that Klinsman knows what he is doing.

With all of that said and with what others have pointed out, what do the people in charge and fans expect? The best athletes we have aren't playing soccer, and will never play soccer. We will never be able to compete talent-wise with the Brazils, Germanys etc of the world. Their best athletes play soccer, ours play basketball, football, baseball and then soccer. Maybe one day that will change, but for the foreseeable future I don't think it will.

[bleedXblue]

I was pretty shocked at how much Mexico outplayed us. They controlled the ball, held possession very well and were clearly the better team. I don't know what style of play the US incorporates.......on top of all that I cant believe we don't have some youth with more talent than some of the aging vets like Beasley. No disrespect to him.

[bleedXblue]

It's been four years....I understand it is a process, but come on. People will point to things like winning against the Netherlands in a friendly (like that actually means squat) as a sign that Klinsman knows what he is doing.

With all of that said and with what others have pointed out, what do the people in charge and fans expect? The best athletes we have aren't playing soccer, and will never play soccer. We will never be able to compete talent-wise with the Brazils, Germanys etc of the world. Their best athletes play soccer, ours play basketball, football, baseball and then soccer. Maybe one day that will change, but for the foreseeable future I don't think it will.

I wholeheartedly disagree. We have more kids playing soccer in the US than any other sport...easily. The coaching at the youth level is much better now than 20 years ago. It's a process. Yes, it would be nice to have some of the great athletes from football or basketball, but we should still be able to compete and have proven over the last 4-5 world cups that we aren't that far off.

[Xville]

I wholeheartedly disagree. We have more kids playing soccer in the US than any other sport...easily. The coaching at the youth level is much better now than 20 years ago. It's a process. Yes, it would be nice to have some of the great athletes from football or basketball, but we should still be able to compete and have proven over the last 4-5 world cups that we aren't that far off.

I think that's been true for probably 20 plus years now. The best athletes are not going to play soccer in this country or choose it to be their #1 sport. There is too much money in baseball, basketball and football for them to choose soccer. Soccer yes you can make good money, but you have to go overseas and its a very difficult process.

[bleedXblue]

I think that's been true for probably 20 plus years now. The best athletes are not going to play soccer in this country or choose it to be their #1 sport. There is too much money in baseball, basketball and football for them to choose soccer. Soccer yes you can make good money, but you have to go overseas and its a very difficult process.

Kids aren't making choices at 10-12 years old at what sport their going to concentrate on b/c of the money. The sport chooses the kid more often than not. They're going to play what they excel in. The bigger issue for soccer is getting kids exposed to the sport who don't live in the suburbs. Same issue that baseball is dealing with.

[ammtd34]

It still costs a lot of money to play soccer at a high level in the US. In poor neighborhoods, there are blacktop basketball courts. You can play with your friends as long as somebody has a ball. In poor neighborhoods in powerhouse countries, there are blacktop soccer courts. To me, that's the biggest difference.

[Xville]

There are a ton of people who play american football in this country, and that isn't cheap...that equipment can be quite expensive. I understand there are a lot of people who want to see soccer excel in this country, and yes i think it is growing here and there...my nephew, who is 7, loves Messi and he plays soccer year round.However when I was growing up (which was 20-25 years ago) it was the same thing...kids played it year round and on club select teams etc. The only way for soccer to excel in this country is for people outside of die hard soccer fans to care about MLS. If MLS could generate enough revenue thru advertising etc to pay their non-elite players a great wage, then maybe the story would change. Young kids could look up to the us born soccer player that he sees on tv all the time etc. Until then, call me a cynic but I don't see the best athletes playing soccer in this country. However, maybe 20-30 years from now, MLS will have grown to that point because this next generation will have grown up or maybe it won't. I have just heard this same thing about soccer now for the past 20 years...that its growing, that we are almost there, that its becoming so popular and after a while you just stop believing it because you aren't really seeing the results.

Also, there is a reason why baseball is declining as far as the number of us born players. Its slow, it doesn't translate to tv that great, and it can be boring to the average fan. Soccer is much the same in that it can be quite slow (in terms of how you see it on tv), can be boring to the average fan, and it doesn't translate well to tv.

[LA Muskie]

Kids aren't making choices at 10-12 years old at what sport their going to concentrate on b/c of the money. The sport chooses the kid more often than not. They're going to play what they excel in. The bigger issue for soccer is getting kids exposed to the sport who don't live in the suburbs. Same issue that baseball is dealing with.

Kids like playing soccer. But you don't hear them saying things like "I want to play in the MLS" like they do with other sports. We have tons of kids playing soccer, but the vast majority of them play at the recreational level. The quality of athlete playing soccer in the US still pales in comparison to the money sports. And while they may not realize the money discrepancy at the professional level, they -- and their parents -- are inundated with it through the media.

[Xville]

Kids like playing soccer. But you don't hear them saying things like "I want to play in the MLS" like they do with other sports. We have tons of kids playing soccer, but the vast majority of them play at the recreational level. The quality of athlete playing soccer in the US still pales in comparison to the money sports. And while they may not realize the money discrepancy at the professional level, they -- and their parents -- are inundated with it through the media.

+1 Exactly

[Xtemporaneous]

Kids like playing soccer. But you don't hear them saying things like "I want to play in the MLS" like they do with other sports. We have tons of kids playing soccer, but the vast majority of them play at the recreational level. The quality of athlete playing soccer in the US still pales in comparison to the money sports. And while they may not realize the money discrepancy at the professional level, they -- and their parents -- are inundated with it through the media.

Um (raises hand)... my kid does. He wants to be like Nick Hagglund. I live in an urban area and luckily we are on an elite team. Granted it costs way to much $ and way too much travel for the good kids. Why do we have to keep doing that at such a young age? Is it geographical? There really is no soccer in elementary schools unless you count SAY which is kind of a joke if you want to be serious. Soccer (travel teams more specifically) right now is targeted at suburban parents with cash to blow. Can we make it about the sport instead?

[ammtd34]

I don't think the "best athletes" in other countries play soccer, either, and that's ok. They just have a bigger pool to pick form than largely middle class suburban kids. Our best female athletes aren't playing soccer, but we're consistently the best in the world. Most other countries' federations simply don't care about their womens national teams.

[bleedXblue]

5 years ago you couldn't find an EPL or Bundesliga game on TV. Now they televise just about every one of them. Soccer is getting a ton of play in the US and it will continue to grow. Kids are getting drafted to play professionally........even the Nick Hagglund's. The MLS is growing and it's going to take more time to get more viewership. The top players in the MLS are making millions. Not on the NFL or NBA level's, but it's come a long, long way in the last 10 years.

[ammtd34]

5 years ago you couldn't find an EPL or Bundesliga game on TV. Now they televise just about every one of them. Soccer is getting a ton of play in the US and it will continue to grow. Kids are getting drafted to play professionally........even the Nick Hagglund's. The MLS is growing and it's going to take more time to get more viewership. The top players in the MLS are making millions. Not on the NFL or NBA level's, but it's come a long, long way in the last 10 years.

On the international level, it's still about youth development. When Nick Hagglund is considered a young talent after playing 4 years in college, we're already 5 years behind the rest of the world, whose players have spent 7, 8, 9, 10 years in clubs' youth academies.

[Xville]

I don't think the "best athletes" in other countries play soccer, either, and that's ok. They just have a bigger pool to pick form than largely middle class suburban kids. Our best female athletes aren't playing soccer, but we're consistently the best in the world. Most other countries' federations simply don't care about their womens national teams.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this. Soccer is the biggest sport in the world except in the US...I firmly believe the best athletes are playing soccer in other countries

[bleedXblue]

On the international level, it's still about youth development. When Nick Hagglund is considered a young talent after playing 4 years in college, we're already 5 years behind the rest of the world, whose players have spent 7, 8, 9, 10 years in clubs' youth academies.

Not sure what you're after. I'm sure Nick H and the vast majority of high level college players have been playing club soccer since they were 5 years old. Yes, the development is different....but I see that evolving over time.

[Cheesehead]

a lot of those US kids play low level rec soccer just to fill up schedules(not bashing it but it is what it is) and that is not helping US at all. I use to ref rec soccer and it is not good soccer.

[ammtd34]

Not sure what you're after. I'm sure Nick H and the vast majority of high level college players have been playing club soccer since they were 5 years old. Yes, the development is different....but I see that evolving over time.

That's my point. That's what I did, too. When you're an American college soccer player, you grew up practicing 3 times a week and playing against the other best American soccer players. Youth academies in other parts of the world develop players in the same system from the time they're 8. They train, then go to school, then train, then eat, then train. Every day. Our system puts us at an automatic disadvantage.

[ammtd34]

I wholeheartedly disagree with this. Soccer is the biggest sport in the world except in the US...I firmly believe the best athletes are playing soccer in other countries

They just aren't. Spain has been a dominant force for 10 years. Their average height was like 5'7" in the world cup and I don't think Pau Gasol would have been an asset for them. No one in England would think that Wayne Rooney is one of the best athletes in the country. Again, Candace Parker, Serena Williams, and Ronda Rousey aren't playing soccer but our women are the best in the world.

[Xville]

They just aren't. Spain has been a dominant force for 10 years. Their average height was like 5'7" in the world cup and I don't think Pau Gasol would have been an asset for them. No one in England would think that Wayne Rooney is one of the best athletes in the country. Again, Candace Parker, Serena Williams, and Ronda Rousey aren't playing soccer but our women are the best in the world.

When did height become a prerequisite for athletic ability? Messi is one of the best most athletic players in the world and i think the guy is maybe 5'6? Our women are the best in the world because most countries don't take women playing sports seriously....or at least haven't up until about 10-20 years ago.

[ammtd34]

Bringing up Messi makes my point. He had a growth hormone deficiency and couldn't afford treatment for it when he was a kid. Barcelona agreed to pay for it and he joined their youth system. A kid like that wouldn't be highly recruited in the United States because we value athleticism too much instead of valuing technical soccer players. If there could be a comprehensive test for "who is a better athlete," Deandre Yedlin would beat Messi.

Here's another example:


At 16, we could play Paul for only 20 minutes a game. He couldn’t run. He was a little one. Had asthma. No Strength. No power. No athleticism…No endurance. ‘You’ve got a bleeding dwarf,’ I remember somebody said to Brian Kidd (then the youth team coach). ‘You will eat your words,’ said Kidd. If Paul had been at a lesser club, they would have got rid of him and he would probably not be in the game now. We stuck with Paul, a wonderful technician. How many caps did he get? Sixty-six.

Paul Scholes. Not a chance he's developed that way in the United States. If you're playing 20 minutes a game at 16, you're certainly not going to be highly recruited. He scored 107 goals for Manchester United and is probably a top 10 midfielder of all time.

Again, putting out high quality athletes is not our problem. Developing soccer players is. The US covered more ground at the world cup last year than any other country. We don't need better athletes. We need better soccer players.

[bleedXblue]

a lot of those US kids play low level rec soccer just to fill up schedules(not bashing it but it is what it is) and that is not helping US at all. I use to ref rec soccer and it is not good soccer.

Compared to 20-30 years ago, our system is leaps and bounds better now. True, lots of kids play "select" soccer that aren't very good........but at least we have a system in place now for identifying the better players and making sure they get the opportunity to play at a higher level.

[bleedXblue]

They just aren't. Spain has been a dominant force for 10 years. Their average height was like 5'7" in the world cup and I don't think Pau Gasol would have been an asset for them. No one in England would think that Wayne Rooney is one of the best athletes in the country. Again, Candace Parker, Serena Williams, and Ronda Rousey aren't playing soccer but our women are the best in the world.

Ummm, Ronda Rousey? Just because she's a bad ass doesn't make her a great athlete. You don't see anyone in the women's game over 6'0 tall generally because they don't have the quickness and mobility needed. I think the women's team is full of great athletes.

[ammtd34]

Compared to 20-30 years ago, our system is leaps and bounds better now. True, lots of kids play "select" soccer that aren't very good........but at least we have a system in place now for identifying the better players and making sure they get the opportunity to play at a higher level.

What's the system and where is the higher level? Developmental academies still play against regular clubs and aren't "academies" the way the rest of the world has academies.

[ammtd34]

Southampton's youth academy has produced these players in the last 10 years:

Luke Shaw - 20 years old
James Ward-Prowse - 20 years old
Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain - 22 years old
Theo Walcott - 26 years old
Adam Lallana - 27 years old
Gareth Bale - 26 years old
Calum Chambers - 20 years old

This is one club in England that routinely produces 18 year olds who are ready to contribute in world class leagues and receive full national team caps. There are obviously more clubs doing the same. We simply cannot do that unless our youth programs are completely overhauled.

[ammtd34]

Back to the original topic, Fabian Johnson was just sent home from camp. Johnson wanted to come off the field vs. Mexico, and Jurgen wasn't happy about it. He would typically be an important piece for the upcoming qualifiers, but I wonder if he pissed off Klinsmann enough to not be selected.

[bleedXblue]

Back to the original topic, Fabian Johnson was just sent home from camp. Johnson wanted to come off the field vs. Mexico, and Jurgen wasn't happy about it. He would typically be an important piece for the upcoming qualifiers, but I wonder if he pissed off Klinsmann enough to not be selected.

I can't imagine any of the US players happy about the Mexico game.......but to ask to come off? Wow.

[LA Muskie]

I think we're getting a bit hung up on the word "athletes" -- which can mean many different things depending on the context. I meant it in terms of athletic ability -- the natural tendencies and learned skills that allow individuals to excel at sport in general and/or specific sports in particular.

In the US, those male athletes disproportionately choose football, basketball and baseball over soccer. Especially when participation rates are considered. That doesn't mean we don't have our share of athletes who prefer soccer. It just means they are outliers.

On the women's side it's different. Among female athletes, soccer is generally the top choice of sport. Again, that doesn't mean that some won't choose basketball, softball, tennis, swimming or even MMA. But it means they are the outliers.

[LA Muskie]

The top players in the MLS are making millions. Not on the NFL or NBA level's, but it's come a long, long way in the last 10 years.

There are a handful of millionaires in the MLS. They are an extreme exception to the rule, and most were foreign stars paid as much for their marketability as their remaining soccer abilities (although most are still exceedingly successful in the MLS even though their careers largely ran their course overseas). Otherwise, the MLS is BY FAR the lowest-paid of the 4 primary professional team sport leagues. In that regard, any improvement over the last 10 years has been mostly incremental at best.

[LA Muskie]

5 years ago you couldn't find an EPL or Bundesliga game on TV. Now they televise just about every one of them.
I think that says more about the increase in bandwidth and the decease in overall cost to broadcast than it does interest in the games. Just about everything is televised now...

[XMuskieFTW]

Back to the original topic, Fabian Johnson was just sent home from camp. Johnson wanted to come off the field vs. Mexico, and Jurgen wasn't happy about it. He would typically be an important piece for the upcoming qualifiers, but I wonder if he pissed off Klinsmann enough to not be selected.

I don't know how much I buy this. Jurgen has the tendency to send players home after losses for random reasons like this. He always has to have some sort of scapegoat, because he's never once taken ownership of a loss due to his coaching.

And Fabian's German club just said he returned to them with a thigh injury today. Jurgen has no accountability and to try and throw players under the bus like this is sickening.

SACK HIM.

[ammtd34]

I think we're getting a bit hung up on the word "athletes" -- which can mean many different things depending on the context. I meant it in terms of athletic ability -- the natural tendencies and learned skills that allow individuals to excel at sport in general and/or specific sports in particular.


I'm fine with that. My point has been that our national team's problem isn't that we're athletically overmatched by the rest of the world. The problem is that the rest of the world has better soccer players because of the way youth is developed everywhere else.

[ammtd34]

I don't know how much I buy this. Jurgen has the tendency to send players home after losses for random reasons like this. He always has to have some sort of scapegoat, because he's never once taken ownership of a loss due to his coaching.

And Fabian's German club just said he returned to them with a thigh injury today. Jurgen has no accountability and to try and throw players under the bus like this is sickening.

SACK HIM.

I agree. Regardless of who you support in this decision, no one can say it's a good sign for the health of the USMNT.

[ammtd34]

Here is an MLS SALARY (https://www.mlsplayers.org/images/July%2015,%202015%20Salary%20Information%20-%20By%20Club.pdf) pdf for reference.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Klinsman - absolutely don't fire that guy unless you have a quality coach waiting for our job. I don't see anyone on the horizon that would be willing to coach the US. Now, maybe Bielsa would take the job in that case it would be an upgrade. That aside, what Jurgen does is upgrade youth programs. Our youth program is still not great but it's better than it has ever been. Guys like Hyndeman, Zelelam, Kiessesetter, Steffen, Horvath, Carter-Vicars, on and on are better now than Senior team guys were at that age.

On whether US soccer will be a power in the future - yes it will. It will be a power the day that kids 5'6 to 6'0 and are supreme athletes realize that you can be massively successful playing soccer instead of basketball or football. Right now a lot of kids in that height range are pushed to football and basketball because of parental participation or overall culture and are really fringe guys because of their size. Soccer does not have that as discussed above. When it hits those kids, and it eventually will, everything will change in the US. How many supremely athletic 5'8 PGs are out there that really have no chance at the NBA but are athletic enough to play soccer? We might know someday.

[bleedXblue]

There are a handful of millionaires in the MLS. They are an extreme exception to the rule, and most were foreign stars paid as much for their marketability as their remaining soccer abilities (although most are still exceedingly successful in the MLS even though their careers largely ran their course overseas). Otherwise, the MLS is BY FAR the lowest-paid of the 4 primary professional team sport leagues. In that regard, any improvement over the last 10 years has been mostly incremental at best.

I'm not quite sure how you can say this? The league 10 years ago was at best hoping to survive. Now you have several very profitable clubs and expansion into a lot new markets. Look at the any professional sports league.........it takes some time to build a fan base and market your product. It doesn't happen overnight. I have no idea how many guys 10 years ago we're even making 100K a year....now the average salary is 2-3 times that.

I'm by no means saying soccer here will ever reach the NFL or MLB. But it has come a long way and has room to grow even more.

[Xavier]

That's my point. That's what I did, too. When you're an American college soccer player, you grew up practicing 3 times a week and playing against the other best American soccer players. Youth academies in other parts of the world develop players in the same system from the time they're 8. They train, then go to school, then train, then eat, then train. Every day. Our system puts us at an automatic disadvantage.

Well, beyond maybe tennis or golf I don't know many youth academies that train US kids? That's an uncommon thing in the US for any sport. I could be completely oblivious to it, though.

[ammtd34]

Below.

[ammtd34]

Klinsman - absolutely don't fire that guy unless you have a quality coach waiting for our job. I don't see anyone on the horizon that would be willing to coach the US. Now, maybe Bielsa would take the job in that case it would be an upgrade. That aside, what Jurgen does is upgrade youth programs. Our youth program is still not great but it's better than it has ever been. Guys like Hyndeman, Zelelam, Kiessesetter, Steffen, Horvath, Carter-Vicars, on and on are better now than Senior team guys were at that age.

On whether US soccer will be a power in the future - yes it will. It will be a power the day that kids 5'6 to 6'0 and are supreme athletes realize that you can be massively successful playing soccer instead of basketball or football. Right now a lot of kids in that height range are pushed to football and basketball because of parental participation or overall culture and are really fringe guys because of their size. Soccer does not have that as discussed above. When it hits those kids, and it eventually will, everything will change in the US. How many supremely athletic 5'8 PGs are out there that really have no chance at the NBA but are athletic enough to play soccer? We might know someday.


How much credit can Jurgen take for the players listed? We've put out world class goalkeepers for a long time, so I'll give you Steffen and Horvath. I wouldn't sya they're necessarily "better" than a 20 year old Tim Howard or Brad Guazan. If they end up being better, good for us. Everyone else holds dual citizenship with another country. Hyndman made his Fulham debut before Klinsmann was hired as the national team coach. Kiesewetter was born in Germany and never trained in America. Zelalem was born in Germany and lived in the US for 5 years. He came with his Ethiopian dad after his mom died and left for London in 2013. Klinsmann has been instrumental in recruiting these players to play for the US, but I don't think he can claim that he was influential in their development.

[ammtd34]

Well, beyond maybe tennis or golf I don't know many youth academies that train US kids? That's an uncommon thing in the US for any sport. I could be completely oblivious to it, though.

Right. But the rest of the world is doing this. I don't understand why we don't see that as an inherent disadvantage.

[GoMuskies]

Youth academies in other parts of the world develop players in the same system from the time they're 8. They train, then go to school, then train, then eat, then train. Every day. Our system puts us at an automatic disadvantage.

That sounds like a really fucked up system.

[ammtd34]

That sounds like a really fucked up system.

If the USSF thinks so, too, then I'll be fine with that. But we'd have to stop pretending that it's our goal to put a world class product on the field.

[muskiefan82]

That's my point. That's what I did, too. When you're an American college soccer player, you grew up practicing 3 times a week and playing against the other best American soccer players. Youth academies in other parts of the world develop players in the same system from the time they're 8. They train, then go to school, then train, then eat, then train. Every day. Our system puts us at an automatic disadvantage.

Stupid freedom and civil rights keep getting in the way of these soccer academies. :sign-wtf:

[ammtd34]

Stupid freedom and civil rights keep getting in the way of these soccer academies. :sign-wtf:

Think of them as soccer boarding schools. What's the civil rights issue?

[GoMuskies]

Think of them as soccer boarding schools. What's the civil rights issue?

We should have the civil right to flog any parent who would send their kid to one.

[ammtd34]

We should have the civil right to flog any parent who would send their kid to one.

That's fine. But if that's the view of the USSF, stop paying coaches/technical directors a ton of money when their chance of success is 0. If we're not going to compete with the rest of the world, we should stop acting like we're trying to compete with the rest of the world.

[bleedXblue]

Reminds me of the Nick Bolleterri Tennis School(spelling??) that produced Agassi and Courier back in the 90's. The whole world of tennis started following this model.

[LA Muskie]

Here is an MLS SALARY (https://www.mlsplayers.org/images/July%2015,%202015%20Salary%20Information%20-%20By%20Club.pdf) pdf for reference.
OK so I count 21 at or about $1mm. I will confess, that was more than I realized. But only of those were born and/or trained in the US -- Dempsey, Altidore, and Bradley. And all played meaningful roles on European 1st Division squads before securing their MLS payouts.

[LA Muskie]

I'm not quite sure how you can say this? The league 10 years ago was at best hoping to survive. Now you have several very profitable clubs and expansion into a lot new markets. Look at the any professional sports league.........it takes some time to build a fan base and market your product. It doesn't happen overnight. I have no idea how many guys 10 years ago we're even making 100K a year....now the average salary is 2-3 times that.

I'm by no means saying soccer here will ever reach the NFL or MLB. But it has come a long way and has room to grow even more.
That's fair. Upon further reflection, my comment was certainly hyperbolic. I still have my concerns about the MLS. I tend to think it's a house of cards. But there's no denying it's come a long way in the last 10 years.

[ammtd34]

Reminds me of the Nick Bolleterri Tennis School(spelling??) that produced Agassi and Courier back in the 90's. The whole world of tennis started following this model.

It's now IMG Academy and tried to use the model for soccer 10-15 years ago. It still does but has lost the steam it once had.

[LA Muskie]

I know I'm in the minority on this, but I don't think our youth model needs to mimic Europe. It doesn't in any of the sports in which we dominate, and yet we dominate them. And the youth development models aren't nearly as developed in South American or Africa, and yet they succeed (the former more than the latter).

I think we can develop great soccer players in the US without creating soccer player manufacturing machines. We need more and better coaches. We need more fields. The kids need more free time to play pickup games on their own, where they develop creative instincts. We need to make sure kids are playing at a level commensurate with their skill and/or potential. And frankly we need a good bit of what we used to have but really don't anymore: opportunities for kids to play -- and fail -- without their helicopter parents hovering overhead.

[LA Muskie]

It's now IMG Academy and tried to use the model for soccer 10-15 years ago. It still does but has lost the steam it once had.
I have friends whose kids attended the IMG Soccer Academy. It's great soccer training. But for many of the kids it creates unreasonable expectations, it often destroys their confidence and love for the game, and it burns out a huge portion of its membership.

[Xville]

I know I'm in the minority on this, but I don't think our youth model needs to mimic Europe. It doesn't in any of the sports in which we dominate, and yet we dominate them. And the youth development models aren't nearly as developed in South American or Africa, and yet they succeed (the former more than the latter).

I think we can develop great soccer players in the US without creating soccer player manufacturing machines. We need more and better coaches. We need more fields. The kids need more free time to play pickup games on their own, where they develop creative instincts. We need to make sure kids are playing at a level commensurate with their skill and/or potential. And frankly we need a good bit of what we used to have but really don't anymore: opportunities for kids to play -- and fail -- without their helicopter parents hovering overhead.

Agreed. And I'm sorry, I know a lot of people like to make up the fact that soccer is a difficult game but its really not...you put the ball in the net. There is strategy of course just like every other sport, but the soccer fanatics act like its rocket science. Much of Europe likes to act like its this strategic chess match and technical this and technical that and the only way you can compete is if you start training kids in the way their country does it when the kid turns 3, but im sorry to me that's a complete joke.

Ok sorry rant over.

[ammtd34]

I have friends whose kids attended the IMG Soccer Academy. It's great soccer training. But for many of the kids it creates unreasonable expectations, it often destroys their confidence and love for the game, and it burns out a huge portion of its membership.

There were different ways to get in. Some people had to pay, and some people were brought in. Demarcus Beasley, for example, spent time there in the late 90s, with his time being paid for by the academy. A future center back for Xavier was there at the same time. His parents paid $35,000/yr.

[DC Muskie]

This is a funny thread.

We are a country of something like 330 million people, and we can't get one into the top competitions in the world. But yeah it's because LeBron James plays basketball, and Dustin Pedoria plays baseball, and MLS doesn't pay enough.

It's real simple folks. We don't take it seriously. We haven't figured out what formula works for us and it would be nice if we could just produce one freaking left back worth a damn. Klinsman can't do it all himself.

[DC Muskie]

We should have the civil right to flog any parent who would send their kid to one.

This is the funniest part of the entire thread. Well done Go!

[ammtd34]

I think we can develop great soccer players in the US without creating soccer player manufacturing machines. We need more and better coaches..

Better coaches need to be paid. The only "full time" soccer coaches in the US are college coaches. There are club DOC's and guys who coach 5 different teams, but the only people who are able to make a career out of coaching one team are college and MLS coaches. That's why there needs to be a fundamental change at the youth level.

[DC Muskie]

Why can't creating soccer player manufacturing machines? We do it for every other sport.

[GoMuskies]

Better coaches need to be paid. The only "full time" soccer coaches in the US are college coaches. There are club DOC's and guys who coach 5 different teams, but the only people who are able to make a career out of coaching one team are college and MLS coaches. That's why there needs to be a fundamental change at the youth level.

How is this different than basketball?

[LA Muskie]

Better coaches need to be paid. The only "full time" soccer coaches in the US are college coaches. There are club DOC's and guys who coach 5 different teams, but the only people who are able to make a career out of coaching one team are college and MLS coaches. That's why there needs to be a fundamental change at the youth level.

I generally agree. We suffer from a deficiency of tactic and technique. That is a coaching issue. We also suffer from a lack of creativity. That is a freedom/playing time issue.

I don't think we necessarily need paid, full-time devoted youth coaches, but we need well trained, incentivized (i.e. compensated) coaches.

[muskiefan82]

I think if you could play 1 on 1 soccer on an asphalt surface, we would begin to tap into the athletic potential of millions. Who ever went outside with a couple friends and played actual soccer? You may have kicked at a goal for fun, but actual soccer? People don't do that. Basketball; however, can be played with just two people and you can develop all kinds of creative skills. Football also lends itself to needing only a few to play AND can be played anywhere. Soccer needs a field and people. That's why you don't see "pick up" soccer games happening, but you do see basketball being played and even kids just throwing the football around and running patterns. You can do that on concrete.

[Xville]

I think if you could play 1 on 1 soccer on an asphalt surface, we would begin to tap into the athletic potential of millions. Who ever went outside with a couple friends and played actual soccer? You may have kicked at a goal for fun, but actual soccer? People don't do that. Basketball; however, can be played with just two people and you can develop all kinds of creative skills. Football also lends itself to needing only a few to play AND can be played anywhere. Soccer needs a field and people. That's why you don't see "pick up" soccer games happening, but you do see basketball being played and even kids just throwing the football around and running patterns. You can do that on concrete.

I actually see pick-up soccer quite a bit at the parks around my house...the only thing is to be quite blunt, they are from other countries than the US. People can say this or that about needing better coaches or better technique or etc etc but the fact of the matter is that soccer isn't cool for the majority of people in this country. If it were cool, that would help a lot. It is cool in a lot of other countries, not this one.

[Muskie]

I think if you could play 1 on 1 soccer on an asphalt surface, we would begin to tap into the athletic potential of millions. Who ever went outside with a couple friends and played actual soccer? You may have kicked at a goal for fun, but actual soccer? People don't do that. Basketball; however, can be played with just two people and you can develop all kinds of creative skills. Football also lends itself to needing only a few to play AND can be played anywhere. Soccer needs a field and people. That's why you don't see "pick up" soccer games happening, but you do see basketball being played and even kids just throwing the football around and running patterns. You can do that on concrete.

I see kids playing pick up soccer in green spaces every weekend. Not organized by any league. Just kids with some coats on the ground for goal posts and a ball. Literally all you need.

[GoMuskies]

How can we possibly have a national team capable of beating Costa Rica (population 4.5 million) without ripping 8 year olds away from their families and putting them in soccer academies?!?

[XMuskieFTW]

How can we possibly have a national team capable of beating Costa Rica (population 4.5 million) without ripping 8 year olds away from their families and putting them in soccer academies?!?

Hey now. It was a home game for us. Those are tough to win!

[ammtd34]

How can we possibly have a national team capable of beating Costa Rica (population 4.5 million) without ripping 8 year olds away from their families and putting them in soccer academies?!?

Should we leave our youth programs the way they are?

Several Costa Rican players are in Europe currently, playing in various countries. As youth players, though, nearly all of them spent time at Saprissa. It's typically one of the best clubs in CONCACAF and is widely know for - you guessed it - it's youth academy.

[GoMuskies]

I'm okay with that. But then again, I don't like soccer and don't really care if our national team blows.

[outsideobserver11]

U.S. will never be a powerhouse in soccer until we sort out the whole pay-to-play structure that is alienating a ton of kids due to the shear cost. With our current structure good trainers/coaches require good money, which means the kids have to pay more to play. Europe doesn't have this situation because they are all apart of a professional system where money is generated at the top and the clubs are developing for their future. In the U.S., there are far too many soccer clubs out there where the kids have nowhere to go after the U18 year within that club, so leading up to that you have to constantly pay a lot of money to get quality return. Playing "select" soccer in this country used to mean something, but we've reached a point where there are so many clubs out there that is watered down with Rec level talent. I'm a director for a Crew affiliate so I have seen a lot of this first hand. USSF can say what they want about this academy system and player development, but it still takes money to be involved. I'm spending half my time training kids that can't dribble a ball 10 yards without tripping on it because their family has money, meanwhile a bunch of 9-11 year old African refugees are playing soccer on the other side of the park and are phenomenal young players that can't afford to be part of our system.

As for the current National team, a lot of are issues are because we have a dead generation in the middle. The outgoing, aging talent was very good and did a lot of good stuff for us but they are past their prime. We also have a lot of promising young talent that have bright futures. Unfortunately, that also means we have a dead gap in the middle (roughly 24-28 yr olds) that are below par as a whole. Guys that a few years ago we thought we would be counting on right now just aren't good enough (I'm looking at you Brek Shea, Tim Ream, etc). Just go back to the 2012 U23 roster that Caleb Porter named and you'll notice only 1 of those 19 players (Mix Diskerud) are getting called up regularly. I included a link below. These are the guys we should currently be counting on to lead us. Klinsmann is currently stuck with the mindset of do I go with the tried and true veterans, or go with exciting yet unproven young talent. Either way he needs to pick a direction and go with it because mixing them together doesn't work. A lot of the older veterans are guys that are tough, hard working types that play simple, direct soccer; and the younger players bring a lot more technical flair and a different style due to the evolution of soccer in our country. That mixture of players just isn't working out.

http://www.ussoccer.com/stories/2014/03/17/13/58/caleb-porter-names-19-players-to-u23-training-camp-roster

[ammtd34]

U.S. will never be a powerhouse in soccer until we sort out the whole pay-to-play structure that is alienating a ton of kids due to the shear cost. With our current structure good trainers/coaches require good money, which means the kids have to pay more to play. Europe doesn't have this situation because they are all apart of a professional system where money is generated at the top and the clubs are developing for their future. In the U.S., there are far too many soccer clubs out there where the kids have nowhere to go after the U18 year within that club, so leading up to that you have to constantly pay a lot of money to get quality return. Playing "select" soccer in this country used to mean something, but we've reached a point where there are so many clubs out there that is watered down with Rec level talent. I'm a director for a Crew affiliate so I have seen a lot of this first hand. USSF can say what they want about this academy system and player development, but it still takes money to be involved. I'm spending half my time training kids that can't dribble a ball 10 yards without tripping on it because their family has money, meanwhile a bunch of 9-11 African refugees are playing soccer on the other side of the park and are phenomenal young players that can't afford to be part of our system.


Thank you. I just saw a national staff NSCAA member post similar thoughts on facebook this week.

[GoMuskies]

Isn't there a way to have greater access to more better coaching without committing child abuse?

[DC Muskie]

Isn't there a way to have greater access to more better coaching without committing child abuse?

Stop padding your post count.