Gay Marriage and Sunday Homily

[GoMuskies]

Did your priest give a homily yesterday related to the Supreme Court's Friday decision on gay marriage? Ours did, and I found it pretty disgusting. I was a bit embarrassed for the priest, honestly. The Catholic Church out here sometimes remind me of Baptists back in Kentucky, except that beer is still okay. That's the only thing that keeps me hanging in there!

We need some reasonable Jesuits out here in a hurry.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Did your priest give a homily yesterday related to the Supreme Court's Friday decision on gay marriage? Ours did, and I found it pretty disgusting. I was a bit embarrassed for the priest, honestly. The Catholic Church out here sometimes remind me of Baptists back in Kentucky, except that beer is still okay. That's the only thing that keeps me hanging in there!

We need some reasonable Jesuits out here in a hurry.

What did he say?

[GoMuskies]

Essentially that the ruling was a disaster and that we have to fight it in the public square. That we'll be persecuted as Catholics for fighting against gay marriage, we'll lose our tax exemption (well, he may have a point if they keep up the political preaching), our First Amendment rights are threatened, blah, blah, blah. Same sex attraction exists and needs to be addressed with compassion (pray the gay away?), but marriage is for a man and woman who complement each other sexually and bear children (no mention of trying to prevent barren couples from marrying).

[x_man11]

Our pastor just mentioned that he was aware of the decision, and that there was information in the church bulletin with websites and various views, and that he encourages us to read through the viewpoints. He did not preach on it or lecture us on the decision--and I, for one, appreciate that!

[BandAid]

How dare a priest preach about a major cultural change that affects one of the seven sacraments of the Church.

EDIT: Changed "public event" to "cultural change" for accuracy.

[GoMuskies]

affects one of the seven sacraments of the Church.

Well, given that the decision doesn't meet this standard, he should probably not sermonize about it.

[BandAid]

Well, given that the decision doesn't meet this standard, he should probably not sermonize about it.

Is it possible the supreme court decision could influence the general public's understanding of marriage?

[GoMuskies]

Probably. But marriage isn't a sacrament, and the decision has zero effect on the sacrament.

[Mrs. Garrett]

I know someone who wanted to be a priest until he got to the seminary and found out 90% of the men there were gay. They were doing their best to not be celibate there with each other. My Dad used to do some contract work for a Catholic organization. The priest who ran it told him that all the priests that he knew that weren't gay had girlfriends. A lot of hypocrites running the show.

[blobfan]

Is it possible the supreme court decision could influence the general public's understanding of marriage?

I hope so. People need to understand that government-sanctioned marriage is a contractual agreement that imparts certain legal rights upon the signatories. As far as I know, the government cannot put gender limits on contracts. The government extends it's sanction to religious marriages (with some restrictions eg. only adult humans) but does not dictate that religious institutions be as inclusive as government must be. You will no more see the Catholic Church forced to perform same sex marriages than you will see it force to marry two Jewish people.

[XU 87]

Probably. But marriage isn't a sacrament, and the decision has zero effect on the sacrament.

Marriage is a sacrament.

http://www.americancatholic.org/features/special/default.aspx?id=29

[GoMuskies]

I saw that very link today. First time I've ever seen the sacrament called marriage. I've never heard (or seen) the sacrament called anything other than holy matrimony.

However, the Catholic sacrament of marriage and marriage that is talked about in the Supreme Court ruling are obviously not the same thing, even if we're now using the same word.

[bobbiemcgee]

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/bramhall-cartoons-june-2015-gallery-1.2242201?utm_content=buffer2d0c9&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=NYDailyNewsTw

[SpectorJersey]

I really dont care if gays can marry or not, I really dont think it should be up to the federal govt to make a distinction either way. If they want to get married, I am all for it.

But if the catholic church or any church for that matter is against it and do not want to have those types of marriages in their church, thats up to them. Its no different than some of the rules churches have for not marrying a couple bc they arent members of the church which I know can happen. And if your priest has a certain stance on it either way, thats his right. Classic lefty stance, you arent open minded unless you agree with their thinking.

[Xville]

I heard from a priest the other day regarding this that makes a lot of sense to me. I'm paraphrasing here but he basically said there is no reason we can't support gay marriage in that it is a legal government contract, and no one should be deprived of the right to marry someone. However, within the church, it will not be recognized as a sacrament. To me, that makes sense.

There is a separation of church and state and there are certain rights, privileges one receives when they get married. If two men or two women want to get married, they should have the same rights bestowed upon them by government thru marriage. If the church does not recognize the marriage, then so be it, that's their right as well. I don't necessarily agree with that position by the church (bad catholic i guess), but i understand their thought process.

[GoMuskies]

Classic lefty stance, you arent open minded unless you agree with their thinking.

Totally. I'm always catching flack for being a big old lefty Librul. Good take.

[94GRAD]

I'm getting my popcorn ready!!! Can't wait to read all the responses to this thread.

[BandAid]

That didn't take long...maybe your priest should be frightened (http://time.com/3939143/nows-the-time-to-end-tax-exemptions-for-religious-institutions/)

[Xville]

That didn't take long...maybe your priest should be frightened (http://time.com/3939143/nows-the-time-to-end-tax-exemptions-for-religious-institutions/)

good...hope it does end it. Again I guess i'm a bad catholic, but I agree with the writer.

[GoMuskies]

If they can wait 14 years to get my kids all the way through Catholic schools before ending the tax exemption (which is never going to happen), that would be helpful.

[DC Muskie]

My priest stuck to the Gospel readings. It was pretty good.

When DOMA was struck down our former pastor took to the pulpit and almost had a brain aneurysm. I don't think he recovered, because they shipped him to another parish shortly after that.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Essentially that the ruling was a disaster and that we have to fight it in the public square. That we'll be persecuted as Catholics for fighting against gay marriage, we'll lose our tax exemption (well, he may have a point if they keep up the political preaching), our First Amendment rights are threatened, blah, blah, blah. Same sex attraction exists and needs to be addressed with compassion (pray the gay away?), but marriage is for a man and woman who complement each other sexually and bear children (no mention of trying to prevent barren couples from marrying).

Yikes

[kyxu]

I really dont care if gays can marry or not, I really dont think it should be up to the federal govt to make a distinction either way. If they want to get married, I am all for it.

I think that is the opinion of most people, but when something is a fundamental right, which the SC decided marriage was (some would argue as far back as Loving v. Virginia in the 1960s), the decision cannot be left up to the state to decide as states cannot make laws that abridge such rights.

[Xville]

Essentially that the ruling was a disaster and that we have to fight it in the public square. That we'll be persecuted as Catholics for fighting against gay marriage, we'll lose our tax exemption (well, he may have a point if they keep up the political preaching), our First Amendment rights are threatened, blah, blah, blah. Same sex attraction exists and needs to be addressed with compassion (pray the gay away?), but marriage is for a man and woman who complement each other sexually and bear children (no mention of trying to prevent barren couples from marrying).

So I wonder, in his mind, if a couple who gets married finds out later that for some reason they can't have children, if they should just go ahead and get divorced or if that is just grounds for annulment? I mean its crazy to think people would want to stay married if they can't have children...love? yeah whatever...knock out some babies for me and then we'll talk.

Sorry for going off on a tangent but there are some things with the church that i obviously have issues with.

[Kahns Krazy]

There are flaws in the tax exempt status non profit organizations, but none that raise to the level of fixing them by abolishing them.


Defenders of tax exemptions and deductions argues that if we got rid of them charitable giving would drop. It surely would, although how much, we can’t say. But of course government revenue would go up, and that money could be used to, say, house the homeless and feed the hungry. We’d have fewer church soup kitchens — but countries that truly care about poverty don’t rely on churches to run soup kitchens.

No freaking way do I want the federal government to take over the Freestore Food Bank or the Red Cross.



The Catholic church's long standing position to pass judgement on gays because they are gay, combined with the long standing position of covering up their own, deep homosexual abuse problems, is why I am no longer Catholic (or in 2015 speak, "I identify as a non-Catholic"). Don't tell me that Jim Obergefell is a sinner for putting his love of another man ahead of all else in the world while you cover for a system the encourages and develops child molesters, and continues to protect known criminals of the most disgusting variety.

As far as I am concerned, the Catholic church is welcome to cling to it's ideals of gay hating just like confederate flag wavers can cling to their ideal of black hating.

[DC Muskie]

I know someone who wanted to be a priest until he got to the seminary and found out 90% of the men there were gay. They were doing their best to not be celibate there with each other. My Dad used to do some contract work for a Catholic organization. The priest who ran it told him that all the priests that he knew that weren't gay had girlfriends. A lot of hypocrites running the show.

Yes this is how most of the Vatican is described. I don't know many priests, but I do know of three that fit both of this descriptions just here in DC.

I think sometimes we forget the Church is run by people.

[DC Muskie]

The Catholic church's long standing position to pass judgement on gays because they are gay, combined with the long standing position of covering up their own, deep homosexual abuse problems, is why I am no longer Catholic (or in 2015 speak, "I identify as a non-Catholic"). Don't tell me that Jim Obergefell is a sinner for putting his love of another man ahead of all else in the world while you cover for a system the encourages and develops child molesters, and continues to protect known criminals of the most disgusting variety.

May I ask you something?

When you came to this decision, were you an active member of your parish? Attendance every Sunday, volunteer etc? I'm just curious. Because I have had a long standing theory and I want to see if it holds true here...

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Couple of things from my take of someone who absolutely cheered this decision.

1 - This affects very few people in this world at all. Homosexuals still can't get married in churches that won't allow them to be married. This only changes how the government views it.
2 - I absolutely think ministers/priests/any clergy can and should speak about any opposition they might have in a Sunday sermon. The moment leaders begin to stump for candidates or for a particular policy, then it's time to consider that old tax exempt status question.
3 - I think it was Huckabee but maybe Cruz who said government workers who hand out marriage licenses should be allowed to abstain when two homosexual people apply. Nope, if you don't like it and you work for the government then tough, do your job.

I think the next step is total non-discrimination all the way to business owners. Just like a restaurant can't discriminate because of your race, sexual orientation should be tossed in there as well.

[GoMuskies]

2 - I absolutely think ministers/priests/any clergy can and should speak about any opposition they might have in a Sunday sermon.

I agree that they can. However, it makes them look and sound stupid to do so. Wake me the next time a priest rails against divorce being legal in his homily.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

I agree that they can. However, it makes them look and sound stupid to do so. Wake me the next time a priest rails against divorce being legal in his homily.

My favorite are religious people who say gay marriage is ruining the American family. Divorce rate has been high longer than I remember gay marriage being legal. Straight people have been messing up American families way longer than homosexuals.

[Kahns Krazy]

May I ask you something?

When you came to this decision, were you an active member of your parish? Attendance every Sunday, volunteer etc? I'm just curious. Because I have had a long standing theory and I want to see if it holds true here...

As I child, I was full on in the church. So much so that if I couldn't go to services the same time my brother or parents did, I went by myself. It was one of those occasions I was by myself that one of the creepiest things that has ever happened to me happened. An older man (I have no reason to think he was at all affiliated) sat in the pew next to me. Over the course of the service, he kept scooting closer and closer to me until at one point, he reached out and put his hand on my head. I swatted it away and told him to leave me alone. He did, but there is no doubt in my mind that this man was a molester and was testing out kids to see who might let him do his weird shit. The same thing happened with the same man to my brother when the two of us were in church alone. I know we told our parents about both of these things. I don't remember specifically what the response was, but I was left with the distinct impression that the church in general wasn't going to do shit about it. I do remember thinking that when all the church scandal stuff came out, that everyone else seemed far more surprised about in general than I was. I knew the Catholic church was a house of molestation when I was 10.

I drifted away in college, and for a couple of years after that. When I made the decision to start attending services again and become involved in a parish, I bounced around a couple places including Bellermine for a while. I was married in the Catholic church after my then-wife went through RCIA. We were active for a few years, but I was having a harder and harder time swallowing all of the dogma. As I got more and more exposed to what the physical church was, I had a harder time reconciling that with my spirituality. We stopped attending services, but I still considered myself Catholic. You can probably find posts from me on this website where I state that I am Catholic.

Over the last couple of years, not coincidentally the years that I lived right next door to a lesbian couple lovingly raising a daughter, my convictions around treating everyone equally have become more clear. I have long had good friends who were gay, but I had never been next to it every day and seen the hurt that saying things like "love the sinner, hate the sin" does to a family. I reached a point that I felt I needed to disassociate from an organization that professes love and acts from hate.


So no, I was not an active participant when I specifically disassociated myself from the church. Your question is a bit loaded though. It's a little like asking someone who decides to divorce their wife if they were in love with them the day they filed the papers. I'm not sure you're taking too much of a risk by theorizing that people who completely sever their ties to the church weren't in the dunking booth at the festival the week before.

[LadyMuskie]

Did your priest give a homily yesterday related to the Supreme Court's Friday decision on gay marriage? Ours did, and I found it pretty disgusting. I was a bit embarrassed for the priest, honestly. The Catholic Church out here sometimes remind me of Baptists back in Kentucky, except that beer is still okay. That's the only thing that keeps me hanging in there!

We need some reasonable Jesuits out here in a hurry.

Has your priest used the "n" word in a homily in the last month? If not, he's not as backwards as our priest!!

[waggy]

Has your priest used the "n" word in a homily in the last month? If not, he's not as backwards as our priest!!


Please tell me there is some context here.

[LadyMuskie]

Please tell me there is some context here.

I'm curious, in what context would it be okay for an early 30-something white priest to use the word nigger during a homily where children, some of whom are black, all of whom are children, are present? I can't think of one.

[BandAid]

I'm curious, in what context would it be okay for an early 30-something white priest to use the word nigger during a homily where children, some of whom are black, all of whom are children, are present? I can't think of one.

He was homeschooled and therefore doesn't know social cues?

[LadyMuskie]

He was homeschooled and therefore doesn't know social cues?

Was he homeschooled in a bunker with no electricty? Was he homeschooled in 1850? Was he homeschooled by David Duke? If none of those are true (and I'm fairly certain they aren't), then I really don't think we can blame homeschooling for this one.

[waggy]

A lesson on what words are a no-no using a real example? I don't know, that's why I asked.

[BandAid]

Was he homeschooled in a bunker with no electricty? Was he homeschooled in 1850? Was he homeschooled by David Duke? If none of those are true (and I'm fairly certain they aren't), then I really don't think we can blame homeschooling for this one.

...yes...no...maybe...

(please tell me you realize I was joking)

[DC Muskie]

So no, I was not an active participant when I specifically disassociated myself from the church. Your question is a bit loaded though. It's a little like asking someone who decides to divorce their wife if they were in love with them the day they filed the papers. I'm not sure you're taking too much of a risk by theorizing that people who completely sever their ties to the church weren't in the dunking booth at the festival the week before.

First thanks for sharing all of that.

Yeah it's definitely a loaded question. I'm always interested in hearing and learning why people leave not just the Catholic Church, but any church.

For me my path has taken some interesting turns for sure. Long story short, I've worked for years for a Catholic based organization that worked with other religions and I can tell you at that moment I had zero desire to be active within the church. Religious people drove me nuts. It was only leaving and experiencing some pretty terrible things the last three years that I found my way back and stronger in my faith than ever.

As a kid I was active in the church, but I never experienced any molestation. When the stuff out of Boston came out my initial reaction was wanting to sign up to become a priest and fix this shit. Obviously that didn't happen.

Frankly if I viewed religion objectively, there would be no way I would ever join any religion, because there is something wrong with all of them. I have found that something I learned by in junior high is still true today, that I have a need to be closer to my God every day. And for me the Catholic Church is the vehicle to make that happen. And I think Francis said it best a few years ago when he said the church can only attract through God's beauty. I had a friend recently tell me how her Catholic high school was firing a teacher because she was gay. "What do we do as Catholics?" was the question.

To me, it's being an example of love. I'm reading this book by Joshua DuBois who sent Devotionals to Obama everyday. Today' message was about creating your own joy where you stand. That idea has been resonating with me for the past few months. People who lead the Church do not define what the Church I present to others. Priests who get up and preach hate are not the people who define the Church. Neither are lay people who share those views.

Anyway, I'm about to ramble on. I'll leave it there and thanks again for sharing.

[coasterville95]

Did your priest give a homily yesterday related to the Supreme Court's Friday decision on gay marriage? Ours did, and I found it pretty disgusting. I was a bit embarrassed for the priest, honestly. The Catholic Church out here sometimes remind me of Baptists back in Kentucky, except that beer is still okay. That's the only thing that keeps me hanging in there!

We need some reasonable Jesuits out here in a hurry.

Uhm, ours didn't wait for the homily. Our's didn't even get to the Gloria before bringing it up.

Paraphrasing here, but while turning to the penitential rite, he added something like "and in a special way we ask forgiveness for our country, as we have been led astray from your ways"

Let's look at your summary:


Essentially that the ruling was a disaster and that we have to fight it in the public square. That we'll be persecuted as Catholics for fighting against gay marriage, we'll lose our tax exemption (well, he may have a point if they keep up the political preaching), our First Amendment rights are threatened, blah, blah, blah. Same sex attraction exists and needs to be addressed with compassion (pray the gay away?), but marriage is for a man and woman who complement each other sexually and bear children (no mention of trying to prevent barren couples from marrying).

Yup, do we go to the same parish? I doubt it, since you are in Kansas. Tax-exempt status, yup, as well as declaring it the latest in a chai of recent government decisions (Roe v Wade, Obamacare (as it pertains to having to furnish certain products and services) - and that how as a society, we have gotten so proud we think we know better than God what is right. That we as a society have attempted to replace God. Etc.

In our parish, I was sitting about halfway back, and I saw three walk outs throught he transept exits, and I heard the main doors behind me open a time or two during the sermon.

"This may make you uncomfortable, but my job is to instruct and guide you in accordance to the fundamental teachings of the Catholic Church"

[muskiefan82]

Wow. DC. Who knew?

[wkrq59]

I heard from a priest the other day regarding this that makes a lot of sense to me. I'm paraphrasing here but he basically said there is no reason we can't support gay marriage in that it is a legal government contract, and no one should be deprived of the right to marry someone. However, within the church, it will not be recognized as a sacrament. To me, that makes sense.

There is a separation of church and state and there are certain rights, privileges one receives when they get married. If two men or two women want to get married, they should have the same rights bestowed upon them by government thru marriage. If the church does not recognize the marriage, then so be it, that's their right as well. I don't necessarily agree with that position by the church (bad catholic i guess), but i understand their thought process.

VILLE you are on target. We Catholics have needed a marriage license to wed for as long as I can remember and that's pretty long. The sacrament of matrimony follows the obtaining of the license, the taking of blood tests etc. Did it once 53 years ago. She's put up with me since that wonderful day.

:jig::rolleyes::lmao:

[PM Thor]

People are getting too hung up on this. It's just a legal agreement and has nothing really to do with the church. I mean, atheists get married, Muslims, Jews, on and on, and no one freaks out about that. Its just the same thing to me.

[Kahns Krazy]

People are getting too hung up on this. It's just a legal agreement and has nothing really to do with the church. I mean, atheists get married, Muslims, Jews, on and on, and no one freaks out about that. Its just the same thing to me.

Except that the church isn't vocal about objecting to the right of Jews to get married. It's not the same thing at all. Catholics have not been campaigning against the rights of gays to marry in the church, they have been campaigning against their rights to marry at all.

[xu82]

Except that the church isn't vocal about objecting to the right of Jews to get married. It's not the same thing at all. Catholics have not been campaigning against the rights of gays to marry in the church, they have been campaigning against their rights to marry at all.

To be fair, I think there are Catholics on various levels.... they shouldn't be married in the church, or they shouldn't be married at all. And of course some Catholics think the church has a lot of silly rules and this is just one more way to drive those Catholics away.

[XUFan09]

Except that the church isn't vocal about objecting to the right of Jews to get married. It's not the same thing at all. Catholics have not been campaigning against the rights of gays to marry in the church, they have been campaigning against their rights to marry at all.
I think what he's saying is that it really should be the same thing but the Church treats it as something on which it needs to act politically.

I liken it more to divorcees remarrying. In the eyes of the Church, a remarried divorcee is cheating on his/her old spouse, even going so far as to start a family within the sin of adultery. Yet, that is a situation where the Church just minds its own business politically, confining its beliefs to specifically who is allowed to get married in the Church. Somehow the same logic doesn't apply to gay marriage.

[DC Muskie]

Wow. DC. Who knew?

That I'm not a complete heathen?

I'm just like a 25% heathen.

[xu82]

That I'm not a complete heathen?

I'm just like a 25% heathen.

A nice blend is always good.

[Strange Brew]

Phew, lot of anti-Catholic hate and bigotry in this thread. Personally, don't care about gay marriage but I'm surprised some of you are deeply offended that priests are defending and promoting Catholic doctrine from the pulpit. Seems to me you'd find greater spiritual fulfillment from a different source.

All that said, my view on this situation changes if the Gov't selectively taxes some religious institutions and not others. Or tells religious institutions who they may or may not hire or with whom they choose to contract.

[GoMuskies]

As soon as I hear a priest stand at the pulpit and rail against legalized divorce, I'll have more patience for that same priest preaching about gay marriage. I don't care one way or the other about gay marriage, either, to be quite honest. I care about priests standing up in church and making damn fools of themselves.

[Strange Brew]

As soon as I hear a priest stand at the pulpit and rail against legalized divorce, I'll have more patience for that same priest preaching about gay marriage. I don't care one way or the other about gay marriage, either, to be quite honest. I care about priests standing up in church and making damn fools of themselves.

So, your priest in your church gave a sermon that caused you heartburn. You apparently have a lot of issues with your church's doctrine. Maybe you should talk to your priest or find a new place of worship that does not offend your delicate sensibilities.

[GoMuskies]

Or maybe the priest should just stop acting like a damned fool.

[Strange Brew]

Or maybe the priest should just stop acting like a damned fool.

You should let him know of your displeasure since it has caused you such strife.

[GoMuskies]

When I go for my next visit (I go once a month whether I need it or not), perhaps I'll chat him up.

[Strange Brew]

When I go for my next visit (I go once a month whether I need it or not), perhaps I'll chat him up.

Couldn't hurt. He may learn a bit from your perspective and you may gain some insight into why he gave that sermon on that particular Sunday.

[XU-PA]

If they can wait 14 years to get my kids all the way through Catholic schools before ending the tax exemption (which is never going to happen), that would be helpful.

And wait till my daughter is done coaching, lot's more opportunities with catholic schools

[XU-PA]

VILLE you are on target. We Catholics have needed a marriage license to wed for as long as I can remember and that's pretty long. The sacrament of matrimony follows the obtaining of the license, the taking of blood tests etc. Did it once 53 years ago. She's put up with me since that wonderful day.

:jig::rolleyes::lmao:

Blood test????? My, you are old! :cool:

[DC Muskie]

So, your priest in your church gave a sermon that caused you heartburn. You apparently have a lot of issues with your church's doctrine. Maybe you should talk to your priest or find a new place of worship that does not offend your delicate sensibilities.

This is exactly why Francis is the right man for the job at the right time.

We need to stop jumping on each other about anything. Especially about things that have nothing to do with the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.

[blobfan]

Phew, lot of anti-Catholic hate and bigotry in this thread. Personally, don't care about gay marriage but I'm surprised some of you are deeply offended that priests are defending and promoting Catholic doctrine from the pulpit. Seems to me you'd find greater spiritual fulfillment from a different source.

All that said, my view on this situation changes if the Gov't selectively taxes some religious institutions and not others. Or tells religious institutions who they may or may not hire or with whom they choose to contract.

There are a lot of things in the tax code that need to be reviewed and waving taxes for religious affiliations is one of them, regardless of politics. It makes no sense to me that megachurches can get tax exemption for multiple properties, multiple homes for pastors, and other luxuries like jets. Want to give them a break on a main property and one residence? Great. Want to give them a break on charitable givings? What's wrong with requiring a church to create a separate charitable foundation for that so they can be held to the same requirements?

[coasterville95]

Whoa.

So let's say in the eyes of the IRS all religious organizations are on equal status. What then is the difference between a megachurch with 5 campusses across a city, and a Diosese with 50? If you want to ding the megachuch to just getting a break on its main campus, are you also sayng we should get the downtown cathedral and the bishops house tax-free, but pay taxes for all the subordinate parishes?

[xeus]

Why Kahns left the Church:


I was having a harder and harder time swallowing

Oh, and this...

http://www.xavierhoops.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1724&stc=1

I feel very lucky to have grown up in a Dominican parish and not a diocesan parish. I love the Church. I love being Catholic, and I love defending Catholicism. I credit the Dominicans (and my parents) for that foundation.

I have many Catholic priest friends (all Domnicans) and also many gay friends (some married, some not). The terrible abuses that happened in the Church created a major crisis of faith - as evidenced by Kahns' comments - but I also believe the healing has begun. I would never abandon my Church because some of its members sinned. Sinning, and forgiving, is a pretty important part of the Church.

[blobfan]

Whoa.

So let's say in the eyes of the IRS all religious organizations are on equal status. What then is the difference between a megachurch with 5 campusses across a city, and a Diosese with 50? If you want to ding the megachuch to just getting a break on its main campus, are you also sayng we should get the downtown cathedral and the bishops house tax-free, but pay taxes for all the subordinate parishes?

I didn't intend to get into specifics as I'm not familiar with the structure of various churches. My vision was that any neighborhood church with residence would count no matter how many neighborhoods were part of the diocese. If the megachurch has 5 campuses that are actively used for worship, that could be judged as reasonable but perhaps the 10,000 seat arena for Christian Rock concerts is not tax exempt if it charges for tickets. I just think it's worth investigating. Anyone that passed Philosophy at X knows you can BS your way through just about any argument but there's no true reason for a religious institution to have tax exempt luxury jets and vacation homes and coastal retreats and 7-8 figure salaries for its leaders. There's got to be a sane way to protect community places of worship while making Creflo Dollar pay his fair share. Preferably a sane way that can be applied equally to all religions and protect the freedom of religious speech.

[Kahns Krazy]

I think what he's saying is that it really should be the same thing but the Church treats it as something on which it needs to act politically.

I liken it more to divorcees remarrying. In the eyes of the Church, a remarried divorcee is cheating on his/her old spouse, even going so far as to start a family within the sin of adultery. Yet, that is a situation where the Church just minds its own business politically, confining its beliefs to specifically who is allowed to get married in the Church. Somehow the same logic doesn't apply to gay marriage.

Also, that sin is for sale. You make a big donation to the church, you get an expedited annulment no questions asked. That was also a side of the church I was exposed to personally that led to my decision to disassociate. My ex wife was looking to remarry and they were looking into a church wedding because he is Catholic. I was informed that a generous donation would help. We pushed for a number, and they said $5,000. I actually offered to say I was gay if it would help.

[Snipe]

As a black lesbian, I support the rights of anyone to get married. I even did so when I was a cis-gendered straight white male. I can't see why we are still denying people from practicing polygamy if they want to. If that is how they want to live, let them have it. Let people be free.

For a long time I have advocated that the Government simply get out of the marriage business. I don't see a need there. I think we waste time and money just arguing about it. Just get rid of it all and tell people they are free to do whatever they so desire. When I got married, I married my wife. I didn't marry the State. I made a commitment to her and to God. I didn't make a commitment to the State of Ohio or the United States of America. I do find my family to be the most sacred part of my existence. Not saying I am all that great at it. I am a sinner, a drunk, and loudmouth and I have a temper. I am not the perfect person, husband or father. And I fail myself and those around me from time to time. Shit happens.

As far as taxing institutions. I think we should abolish income taxes for all institutions, public and private, for profit and non-profit. Taxes are ultimately paid by people, and I would prefer to go with a consumption tax.

I don't think it is a coincidence that they left is signalling they they may want to go after the tax exempt status next. It is a shot across the bow. The pace of social change is quite staggering when I think of it. It is difficult to come to grips where all this will lead.

This is not the end of the gay civil rights movement or the gay agenda. If you thought that they would stop once you gave them marriage you are crazy. And the way they have gone after people once they got power sickens me and makes the future foreboding. The Prop 8 Maps campaign where they singled people out and harassed them is a scary sort of fascism. When they took out Brendan Eich of Mozilla it scared me.

I have long been for gay marriage, just because I believe in free people being free. And gays were all nice when they were a distinct minority without powerful backing. Gay people appealed for tolerance and understanding when they didn't have the numbers. Once they got the numbers they got the taste for a little retribution. And it scares me where this is going.

So this isn't the end. The major source of our culture wars i believe is the state monopoly in education. I think 92% of children attend government schools. I think it will be a huge part of the next gay agenda. They are going to teach the great things about homosexuality to our children, and they better not object. It is going to be in our schools and on our TVs, and anyone that cries can be punished for being the bigot that they are. They will hunted down and shamed with the two minutes hate.

The next step is making sure it is not only legal for two men to marry, the next step is making sure you approve and punishing you if you don't. And we are going to teach the new enlightenment to all of your children, and show it on the silver screen.

It already overloads Hollywood. For all the hub-bub, their aren't that many gays to begin with, and even less that want to get married. Many people seem to like the gay lifestyle because it allows them to have sex with hundreds of partners. Gay sexual partners on average blow away the types of numbers that heterosexuals have, which is also a reason that they are the vector of many diseases, with AIDS being the most costly. Now my health and life insurance cost me more because I choose to be a smoker. Maybe all the butt play should have to pay it's own way. Fair is fair.

So Canada has had gay marriage for a decade, and I think it is less than one half of one percent of Canadian marriages. That was one of the reasons I was all for it. Watching the prime time programming, you would think it was a huge mass of people. It really isn't that big of a deal. One of the reasons I also wanted gay marriage is so that they would shut up already. Wouldn't that be nice? But it appears that I was deeply misguided and that will never happen. Those people aren't going to celebrate and go home, they will move on to the next item on the gay agenda.

Gays haven't faced much discrimination in my estimation, at least not that I have witnessed. Demographically, they make more than straight people, which is one indicator. They make more coin, and they have more sex. We have gay people at the top of professions, they are celebrated. This has to be the greatest country to be gay or lesbian. I think they mostly don't really care to get married anyway, they just were hooked on the gay civil rights issue. And they were interested in monetary benefits. Most gay marriages will probably be open marriages, because a large number of sexual partners is a big of the gay lifestyle. That is what they do.

What happens to the church? I quoted an article a few years ago about a priest being charged with a hate crime in the United Kingdom for saying that homosexuality is a sin. They are a bit further down this road than we are, but I think that is coming. Could they take away the tax exemption because of the sponsorship of hate? They are already making the arguments and laying down the foundation.

The warriors of social justice never sleep. They never stop, and they will never go home. Today's "progress" only sets the stage for what we will ask for tomorrow. And they do this, oddly enough, with a religious intensity. I would rather be ruled by a despot. Give me a corrupt Dictator or a King. At least the King would take a break now and again, and might even provide the bread and circuses for the banquet. But the Social Justice Warrior will never stop, because they know what is good for you, and more importantly what is good for your children. With a missionary zeal they will convert the masses and flay the heretics until victory is total.

And the transgender stuff is finally getting going with Bruce Jenner in a dress. That is one of the next battle fronts too. Don't you go calling her Bruce! That is a violation. It could get you into trouble. If I dismissed gay marriages as less than one half of one percent of marriages, imagine how minuscule the transvestite faction is! I only hope we can keep transracial going, because I enjoy being a black lesbian.

[Snipe]

Why Kahns left the Church:



Oh, and this...

http://www.xavierhoops.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1724&stc=1

I feel very lucky to have grown up in a Dominican parish and not a diocesan parish. I love the Church. I love being Catholic, and I love defending Catholicism. I credit the Dominicans (and my parents) for that foundation.

I have many Catholic priest friends (all Domnicans) and also many gay friends (some married, some not). The terrible abuses that happened in the Church created a major crisis of faith - as evidenced by Kahns' comments - but I also believe the healing has begun. I would never abandon my Church because some of its members sinned. Sinning, and forgiving, is a pretty important part of the Church.

+1

There are many sins, and butt play is considered to be just one of them. If all the sinners weren't allowed in they would have nobody in the pews.

I am a sinner! As LH would say, "This has been covered."

People love to be critical of this or that religion by pointing out the hypocrisy of the sinners. But we are all sinners.

I am a veteran sinner. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

[Snipe]

I know someone who wanted to be a priest until he got to the seminary and found out 90% of the men there were gay. They were doing their best to not be celibate there with each other. My Dad used to do some contract work for a Catholic organization. The priest who ran it told him that all the priests that he knew that weren't gay had girlfriends. A lot of hypocrites running the show.

Lots of gays in the priesthood in America, not sure that is world wide. I think it has something to do with all the Alter boys getting molested. They weren't molesing young women. There was a pattern, and it was a pattern of homosexual molestation. If I recall when the church tried to speak to the homosexual nature of the epidemic they got in trouble for that too. It was double plus ungood.

[Snipe]

Oh and while everyone is ripping the church, I will give my complaint. They should shove the open borders stuff in a closet, lock it and forget the key. It is easier to help the marginal peoples of the earth in situ than it is to import them and put them on American welfare. We could help more people and try to get their countries going correctly rather than taking all the third world refuse that the welfare budget can handle.

And as far as the Church's stance on science, they didn't get it right with Galileo, and they aren't getting it right on climate change. The church doesn't have a great track record with science, so maybe they should stick to faith, which they know something about. They also know dick about econcomics, so the attacks on capitalism and teaming up with Naomi Wolf is a disaster in the making. The church did a great job of running Boliva into the ground with the lowest standard of living in South America.

To wit, a former KGB spy has come forth and admitted that the communists invented Catholic Liberation Theology (http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/05/former-communist-spy-kgb-created-catholic-liberation-theology/) So stop trying to recreate what never worked in the first place in your war with capitalism.

Cultural Marxists should be purged from the Church.

[DC Muskie]

I've really stopped reading Snipe's posts in general.

I'm not missing anything right?

Thought so.

[waggy]

As a black lesbian, I support the rights of anyone to get married. I even did so when I was a cis-gendered straight white male. I can't see why we are still denying people from practicing polygamy if they want to. If that is how they want to live, let them have it. Let people be free.

For a long time I have advocated that the Government simply get out of the marriage business. I don't see a need there. I think we waste time and money just arguing about it. Just get rid of it all and tell people they are free to do whatever they so desire. When I got married, I married my wife. I didn't marry the State. I made a commitment to her and to God. I didn't make a commitment to the State of Ohio or the United States of America. I do find my family to be the most sacred part of my existence. Not saying I am all that great at it. I am a sinner, a drunk, and loudmouth and I have a temper. I am not the perfect person, husband or father. And I fail myself and those around me from time to time. Shit happens.

As far as taxing institutions. I think we should abolish income taxes for all institutions, public and private, for profit and non-profit. Taxes are ultimately paid by people, and I would prefer to go with a consumption tax.

I don't think it is a coincidence that they left is signalling they they may want to go after the tax exempt status next. It is a shot across the bow. The pace of social change is quite staggering when I think of it. It is difficult to come to grips where all this will lead.

This is not the end of the gay civil rights movement or the gay agenda. If you thought that they would stop once you gave them marriage you are crazy. And the way they have gone after people once they got power sickens me and makes the future foreboding. The Prop 8 Maps campaign where they singled people out and harassed them is a scary sort of fascism. When they took out Brendan Eich of Mozilla it scared me.

I have long been for gay marriage, just because I believe in free people being free. And gays were all nice when they were a distinct minority without powerful backing. Gay people appealed for tolerance and understanding when they didn't have the numbers. Once they got the numbers they got the taste for a little retribution. And it scares me where this is going.

So this isn't the end. The major source of our culture wars i believe is the state monopoly in education. I think 92% of children attend government schools. I think it will be a huge part of the next gay agenda. They are going to teach the great things about homosexuality to our children, and they better not object. It is going to be in our schools and on our TVs, and anyone that cries can be punished for being the bigot that they are. They will hunted down and shamed with the two minutes hate.

The next step is making sure it is not only legal for two men to marry, the next step is making sure you approve and punishing you if you don't. And we are going to teach the new enlightenment to all of your children, and show it on the silver screen.

It already overloads Hollywood. For all the hub-bub, their aren't that many gays to begin with, and even less that want to get married. Many people seem to like the gay lifestyle because it allows them to have sex with hundreds of partners. Gay sexual partners on average blow away the types of numbers that heterosexuals have, which is also a reason that they are the vector of many diseases, with AIDS being the most costly. Now my health and life insurance cost me more because I choose to be a smoker. Maybe all the butt play should have to pay it's own way. Fair is fair.

So Canada has had gay marriage for a decade, and I think it is less than one half of one percent of Canadian marriages. That was one of the reasons I was all for it. Watching the prime time programming, you would think it was a huge mass of people. It really isn't that big of a deal. One of the reasons I also wanted gay marriage is so that they would shut up already. Wouldn't that be nice? But it appears that I was deeply misguided and that will never happen. Those people aren't going to celebrate and go home, they will move on to the next item on the gay agenda.

Gays haven't faced much discrimination in my estimation, at least not that I have witnessed. Demographically, they make more than straight people, which is one indicator. They make more coin, and they have more sex. We have gay people at the top of professions, they are celebrated. This has to be the greatest country to be gay or lesbian. I think they mostly don't really care to get married anyway, they just were hooked on the gay civil rights issue. And they were interested in monetary benefits. Most gay marriages will probably be open marriages, because a large number of sexual partners is a big of the gay lifestyle. That is what they do.

What happens to the church? I quoted an article a few years ago about a priest being charged with a hate crime in the United Kingdom for saying that homosexuality is a sin. They are a bit further down this road than we are, but I think that is coming. Could they take away the tax exemption because of the sponsorship of hate? They are already making the arguments and laying down the foundation.

The warriors of social justice never sleep. They never stop, and they will never go home. Today's "progress" only sets the stage for what we will ask for tomorrow. And they do this, oddly enough, with a religious intensity. I would rather be ruled by a despot. Give me a corrupt Dictator or a King. At least the King would take a break now and again, and might even provide the bread and circuses for the banquet. But the Social Justice Warrior will never stop, because they know what is good for you, and more importantly what is good for your children. With a missionary zeal they will convert the masses and flay the heretics until victory is total.

And the transgender stuff is finally getting going with Bruce Jenner in a dress. That is one of the next battle fronts too. Don't you go calling her Bruce! That is a violation. It could get you into trouble. If I dismissed gay marriages as less than one half of one percent of marriages, imagine how minuscule the transvestite faction is! I only hope we can keep transracial going, because I enjoy being a black lesbian.


That might be frame worthy.

[waggy]

I'm not missing anything right?




Well, you got the 2nd commandment down. So you say.

[xu82]

I've really stopped reading Snipe's posts in general.

I'm not missing anything right?

Thought so.

Without judgment, it is a commitment. I'll get around to this when I can. It's on the to do list though.

[DC Muskie]

Also, that sin is for sale. You make a big donation to the church, you get an expedited annulment no questions asked. That was also a side of the church I was exposed to personally that led to my decision to disassociate. My ex wife was looking to remarry and they were looking into a church wedding because he is Catholic. I was informed that a generous donation would help. We pushed for a number, and they said $5,000. I actually offered to say I was gay if it would help.

And this was done in Cincinnati? That's pretty shocking. But to expedite anything actually does cost money. And the Church stopped doing detailed annulment processes decades ago. Mostly because resources are scarce, and again, it costs money. I'm only shocked that this was done in done in super conservative Cincinnati.

I knew people who would get upset because they wanted to married in specific churches and were appalled that the church demanded money. It's almost a no win situation...

[DC Muskie]

Without judgment, it is a commitment. I'll get around to this when I can. It's on the to do list though.

If I carried my computer to the shitter I would read more of his stuff. Would help with any issues I may have.

[D-West & PO-Z]

And this was done in Cincinnati? That's pretty shocking. But to expedite anything actually does cost money. And the Church stopped doing detailed annulment processes decades ago. Mostly because resources are scarce, and again, it costs money. I'm only shocked that this was done in done in super conservative Cincinnati.

I knew people who would get upset because they wanted to married in specific churches and were appalled that the church demanded money. It's almost a no win situation...

My non Catholic wife was surprised by this, lol. I think I heard a few times "If we got married in my church, it would be free." Ha.

[waggy]

My non Catholic wife was surprised by this, lol. I think I heard a few times "If we got married in my church, it would be free." Ha.

Not unusual if her or her parents are members. Because members are supporting the church on the whole. But if you walked in off the street...

[xu82]

If I carried my computer to the shitter I would read more of his stuff. Would help with any issues I may have.

Without judgment, fiber might help....

[DC Muskie]

My non Catholic wife was surprised by this, lol. I think I heard a few times "If we got married in my church, it would be free." Ha.


Not unusual if her or her parents are members. Because members are supporting the church on the whole. But if you walked in off the street...

Exactly. Most people don't actually GO to the churches they want to get married in. But actually having a wedding in a church costs money...which is shocking to people.

[xu82]

Exactly. Most people don't actually GO to the churches they want to get married in. But actually having a wedding in a church costs money...which is shocking to people.

Same as a funeral. Recently went through that (sadly). It's not without cost to have the gang show up and do their thing. And someone needs to pay for the lights and AC. I had no problem with it, but others might complain. Life (and death) are not free.

[waggy]

Exactly. Most people don't actually GO to the churches they want to get married in. But actually having a wedding in a church costs money...which is shocking to people.

Well my experience is that it isn't about the money for most pastors. They know that God will provide. The question is whether the marriage is God's will. They're gonna want to know about your faith, and they're going to want more than one meeting. They're going to suggest scripture readings, and prayer. Money doesn't usually come up. If they believe the marriage is God's will, they will gladly do it for free, and would actually not ask for money, but that you give as you are led to by God.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Well my experience is that it isn't about the money for most pastors. They know that God will provide. The question is whether the marriage is God's will. They're gonna want to know about your faith, and they're going to want more than one meeting. They're going to suggest scripture readings, and prayer. Money doesn't usually come up. If they believe the marriage is God's will, they will gladly do it for free, and would actually not ask for money, but that you give as you are led to by God.

I had no problem with the fees. There were actually two fees, to the church, and to the priest (officiant). However I was married at St. Xavier downtown and married by a priest who was not the priest at St. X.

[DC Muskie]

Well my experience is that it isn't about the money for most pastors. They know that God will provide. The question is whether the marriage is God's will. They're gonna want to know about your faith, and they're going to want more than one meeting. They're going to suggest scripture readings, and prayer. Money doesn't usually come up. If they believe the marriage is God's will, they will gladly do it for free, and would actually not ask for money, but that you give as you are led to by God.

I can tell you in my experiences the opposite is true. If you're not a parishioner they're not going to spend much time investigating everything. Again the resources these churches and parishes where there is only one or two priests it extremely limited.

My best friend got married in a parish in Florida near where his wife lived but she wasn't a parishioner either. They brought their own priest down and all they had to do was flip the bill for the space.

It's just like what 82 said with funerals and especially with baptisms. I'm down here in NC and every church bulletin which are on average 17 pages long, have specific details about baptisms and weddings. Become a member, a dues paying member, and this will take care of itself. You want to use the church for whatever reason you need, get ready to pay. Just been my experience. Personally I don't see anything wrong with it. I just find it funny that people flip out about it. I just assume say don't get married then if you don't like their rules.

[waggy]

I had no problem with the fees. There were actually two fees, to the church, and to the priest (officiant). However I was married at St. Xavier downtown and married by a priest who was not the priest at St. X.

I wonder if St. X answers to a higher authority. Most autonomous churches make their own individual rules. Some have open doors for all sorts of events, and others have learned that's a good way to end up with a trashed building.

[waggy]

I can tell you in my experiences the opposite is true. If you're not a parishioner they're not going to spend much time investigating everything. Again the resources these churches and parishes where there is only one or two priests it extremely limited.

My best friend got married in a parish in Florida near where his wife lived but she wasn't a parishioner either. They brought their own priest down and all they had to do was flip the bill for the space.

It's just like what 82 said with funerals and especially with baptisms. I'm down here in NC and every church bulletin which are on average 17 pages long, have specific details about baptisms and weddings. Become a member, a dues paying member, and this will take care of itself. You want to use the church for whatever reason you need, get ready to pay. Just been my experience. Personally I don't see anything wrong with it. I just find it funny that people flip out about it. I just assume say don't get married then if you don't like their rules.


Again, catholics vs. protestants vs. baptists vs...

I was just baptized at a church I'm not a member at, and there was no cost. God provides is the philosophy. Nothing wrong putting prices on things though, because things do cost. It's just different.

[DC Muskie]

God provides is the philosophy.

Yes, the philosophy that you will give us something at a later date. But yes I agree on the denominations. I have a meeting on Monday with the 5th largest Presbyterian church in the country. I believe they have 15 associate pastors. Helps when you can ordain women. Large Catholic churches top out a 4, with maybe 2 deacons.

Congrats on your baptism, by the way. Pretty awesome. My oldest brother joined a southern baptist church a few years ago and loves it. Very happy for him because for years as a Catholic drop out he was pretty unhappy. I mean sure he's a pagan now, but I love him just the same!

[waggy]

Yes, the philosophy that you will give us something at a later date.


Cynic. Where is your faith brother??

[GoMuskies]

My oldest brother joined a southern baptist church

Parties at his house must suck. But at least they're probably really, really short.

[xu82]

OK, the gay thing has been discussed. And will continue to be discussed. I will digress slightly. My wife, who chaired several years of Catholic Charity Balls and brought them back from the dead (a miracle!), had some busniness development things scheduled with the diocese. We were not strangers. The Bishop would welcome me at our sons football games. (Our son was the stud QB at the Catholic HS.) It was made very clear that any attempts to do business with the diocese would be unsuccessful if there were no males to be the face for their presentation. A group of 2-3 women would not be taken seriously, regardless of how intelligent or qualified they were. The male they brought in was asked about his religious affiliation, and was told Greek Orthodox was "close enough". At least he was a guy.

[XUFan09]

A big reason that a lot of Catholic churches don't look too much into those who want to get married but aren't parishioners is that they still have to go through pre-Cana. Completion of that serves as a thumbs up to any Catholic parish that the couple is worthy.

And D-West, I actually got married at St. X too! I love a Jesuit parish; my wife and I would have actually joined that parish if she had matched for residency at UC.

[D-West & PO-Z]

A big reason that a lot of Catholic churches don't look too much into those who want to get married but aren't parishioners is that they still have to go through pre-Cana. Completion of that serves as a thumbs up to any Catholic parish that the couple is worthy.

And D-West, I actually got married at St. X too! I love a Jesuit parish; my wife and I would have actually joined that parish if she had matched for residency at UC.

Great church. Very blue too!

[Strange Brew]

I can tell you in my experiences the opposite is true. If you're not a parishioner they're not going to spend much time investigating everything. Again the resources these churches and parishes where there is only one or two priests it extremely limited.

My best friend got married in a parish in Florida near where his wife lived but she wasn't a parishioner either. They brought their own priest down and all they had to do was flip the bill for the space.

It's just like what 82 said with funerals and especially with baptisms. I'm down here in NC and every church bulletin which are on average 17 pages long, have specific details about baptisms and weddings. Become a member, a dues paying member, and this will take care of itself. You want to use the church for whatever reason you need, get ready to pay. Just been my experience. Personally I don't see anything wrong with it. I just find it funny that people flip out about it. I just assume say don't get married then if you don't like their rules.

Cynic :)

Edit: Just realized Wags posted the same thing (shocking I know). DC, next time you're in Denver you and I can hit up the Cathedral for a quick prayer then head to Little Bear (Evergreen) for a beer. Sounds like you need to get out of that 10x10 square mile swamp.

[XUFan09]

Great church. Very blue too!
Ha, I loved how blue it was. Perfect for Xavier grads.

[paulxu]

Me: Honey, I've been reading about polygamy.
Mpxu(Mrspaulxu): That's nice.
Me: No really. Snipe said it's something that should work.
Mpxu: What's a Snipe?
Me: It's a guy on the Hoops board.
Mpxu: What's wrong with him?
Me: Nothing, I don't think. Stays up too late at night and writes long posts; but he's OK.
Mpxu: He thinks you should try polygamy?
Me: Well, maybe...
Mpxu: Ask him if he's every heard of a polygamist who was a gelding.

[DC Muskie]

Cynic. Where is your faith brother??


Cynic :)

Edit: Just realized Wags posted the same thing (shocking I know). DC, next time you're in Denver you and I can hit up the Cathedral for a quick prayer then head to Little Bear (Evergreen) for a beer. Sounds like you need to get out of that 10x10 square mile swamp.

I'm not a cynic. Come on guys, someone who tells you "God will provide" and there's no motivation for you to give something? There's nothing wrong with money in the church. Just be up front about it.

And Brew I'm always up for that. I am away from DC for the next few months. Working with a food bank down here. Great people.


Parties at his house must suck. But at least they're probably really, really short.

They are so short they don't even exist. And this was a guy who in college was captain of the lacrosse and ruby club teams, and managed the on campus bar as well. As he approaches 50 is doing the exact opposite of a midlife crisis.

[GoMuskies]

Hey, I moved to Wichita, so I'm obviously all for people making a conscious decision to make their lives boring.

[Kahns Krazy]

A big reason that a lot of Catholic churches don't look too much into those who want to get married but aren't parishioners is that they still have to go through pre-Cana. Completion of that serves as a thumbs up to any Catholic parish that the couple is worthy.

And D-West, I actually got married at St. X too! I love a Jesuit parish; my wife and I would have actually joined that parish if she had matched for residency at UC.

I guess that makes at least 3 of us.

[XUFan09]

I guess that makes at least 3 of us.
We have excellent taste.

[MADXSTER]

This thread is so gay. Not that there is anything wrong with that

[Snipe]

Me: Honey, I've been reading about polygamy.
Mpxu(Mrspaulxu): That's nice.
Me: No really. Snipe said it's something that should work.
Mpxu: What's a Snipe?
Me: It's a guy on the Hoops board.
Mpxu: What's wrong with him?
Me: Nothing, I don't think. Stays up too late at night and writes long posts; but he's OK.
Mpxu: He thinks you should try polygamy?
Me: Well, maybe...
Mpxu: Ask him if he's every heard of a polygamist who was a gelding.

Paul, I don't advocate polygamy. I think it should be legal. Let people be free. Those people are in love and they choose to live that way. Why do you support laws that make them less than you?

I think that people that are against polygamy are on the wrong side of history. Which side are you on Paul? Are you on the side of freedom and love, or the side of exculsion and hate? It was an easy decision for me, just like gay marriage. People should be free. Love knows no bounds. I know that I am on the right side of history, so I will just bide my time. I did so with gay marriage, which I supported well before Obama. Even Dick Cheney supported gay marriage before Obama. Talk about the wrong side of history. History vindicates me!

The Chief Justice of the Supreme Court put an excellent argument for Polygamy if you actually just paid attention to this weeks events.

Polygamy has been practiced for thousands of years my friend. It has a precendent. It is in your Catholic Bible, if you choose to read it. It is in the King James version too. It is even in the Jewish Torah, and those clever Jews know something about history. It is often said that history repeats itself.

And we aren't going to legalize polygamy because some white people in Utah want it. That is just silly talk. We all don't like white people, especially white people in Utah. As a Black Lesbian, just trust me on this one. Polygamy across the world is mostly practiced by what we would call minorities (not white people). That is our trump card. Opposing their views could be construed as racist and even imperialistic, which can give you bonus points for multiple hits.

Like Jacob Zuma, the leader of South Africa, he has multiple wives and multiple mansions. We are not going to arrest him when he steps on American soil. And he comes here all the time to the United Nations. Many Muslim Shieks come here too, and they have multiple wives and they don't even have his diplomatic immunity. We recognize that it is not a crime for them to have multiple wives, yet we still threaten to arrest people, American people, that are in love and voluntarily in plural marriages. Why do you hate those people? Why should they be less than you? Why do you discriminate against their religious beliefs?

#LoveWins! #Polygamy! The opponents of polygamy are haters. Why would you otherwise oppose consenting adults from living the life that they have chosen? And why should they legally be less-than you? Because you are some sort of bigot. You are on the wrong side of history my friend. Poly Lives Matter!

Lets talk about the fundamental rights of Americans to marry who they choose. That is their choice. That is their freedom. Only bigots would be against it. Lets talk about equality. They currently don't have the equality of even gay Americans who can marry. Why are they less equal than you? Because of the fact that you don't agree with their life choices? You are a bigot, and you are on the wrong side of history.

Being gay doesn't make someone less equal. I think we can all agree on that. Why would being in love with some who was already married make someone less equal? Why should we outlaw plural marriages. These marriages are outlawed in all 50 states. We hunt these people down and they could be put in jail given our laws on the books. Where is the outrage? Let them be free to love. #LOVEWINS! What do you have against love?

If you are the second wife right now you might not even be allowed to be with your true husband on his deathbed. And the law allows those people at hospitals to discriminate against you. How cruel is that to separate families? What right do you have to advocate against love? You are on the wrong side of history.

Your bigoted views are dated and old, and frankly they disgust me. I enjoy knowing that the demographics are in my favor and that you are on the wrong side of history, love, social justice, equity, and equality.

[xu82]

So, how many Mrs. Snipes are there?

[paulxu]

Snipe, I'm with you. That's what I was pointing out.
Now...the question is multiple wives and life as a eunuch, or door number 2.
She drives a hard bargain.

[Snipe]

So, how many Mrs. Snipes are there?

Only one. I am hen pecked and bossed around enough as it is. I couldn't imagine getting another or two so they could all team up on me. My honey-do list is already extensive. And women are such emotional creatures, why have more than one? What a pain in the ass. And after living together for a few months their pheromones would get them all coordinated to the same menstrual cycle. What a nightmare that would be, not just one, but two, three or even five wives all on their period at the same time. That would be the time of the month you would want to be a traveling salesman just to get out of the wolf's den.

Men are more rational, women are more emotional. Combining two I think is the optimum blend. Combining more than that is a recipe for Snipe disaster.

On the flip side, I don't think I would care for my wife to have plural husbands at all, but I may concede that might be preferable than for me to have multiple wives. I could let the new guy do all the unpleasant tasks so I could watch football and college hoops.

That said, who can possibly deny the future of polygamy? Those people have rights the same as any of us. And we have no standard with which to stop them with that can't be subjected the scrutiny of the wave of progress and the wrong side of history. I see which way the wind is blowing, and I have predicted this for years. I am going to be on the right side of history.

[Snipe]

Snipe, I'm with you. That's what I was pointing out.
Now...the question is multiple wives and life as a eunuch, or door number 2.
She drives a hard bargain.

I am glad that you are with me on the right side of history!

And she does drive a hard bargain. I think that any man that wants more than one wife might be seriously disturbed. But that doesn't stop people from having rights. We actually have men having surgery to cut off their family jewels and then they parade around in skirts and we are all supposed to act like they are women.

A lead psychiatrist at Johns Hopkins thinks these people have serious mental problems, and he said that giving sexual reassignment surgery to people with severe mental problems is perhaps the worst thing that we can do. Most times those people with mental problems don't live with their psychosis for their whole lives. They have periods later in life where they reflect on why they cut off their penis, and they realize that they aren't really women. And then they wonder about the gatekeepers. Why did anyone let them do this? I won't be surprised when some of them start bringing lawsuits.

Maybe we all shouldn't have the same rights. People with mental problems maybe shouldn't seek gender reassignment surgery in haste, but to say that is to be on the wrong side of history, to be a bigot and a hater. Nobody can withstand a fight against the rhetoric of progressiveness. Now that I am black lesbian, I see how much fun it is to use the tools of progressivism to advance the cause. It is like I am superhuman now and can't be stopped. Who in the hell would ever want to be on the wrong side of history.

And it isn't just gender reassignment surgery, people with mental problems are usually the cause of all the mass shootings. Maybe we don't need to scrap the 2nd Amendment, maybe we don't need to let people with mental problems have access to guns.