Nike Tournament

[Pluto]

Per Andy Katz's 3 point shot today X is out of the Nike tournament in 2016. Butler and Georgetown will represent the BE.

http://es.pn/11y9lDA

[paulxu]

Well that sucks. I hope we win the BE the next 2 years for spite.

[Xtemporaneous]

Well that really sucks. Any chance that OSU had anything to do with it? That tournament with those high-profile schools is going to be ridiculous. Glad the powerhouse Portland State gets our spot (not).

[LA Muskie]

This royally sucks. I'd love some insight.

[ammtd34]

Ouch.

[BMoreX]

If they decided to go with Marquette or Villanova, fine, I get that. But Butler? I don't really see that being the best choice by Nike.

Dammit, I was really looking forward to this.


Well that really sucks. Any chance that OSU had anything to do with it? That tournament with those high-profile schools is going to be ridiculous. Glad the powerhouse Portland State gets our spot (not).

They were always going to be in as the "host" school.

[x_man11]

Seriously...what gives with Butler?? Especially after all the troubles they've had recently?

[waggy]

Seriously...what gives with Butler?? Especially after all the troubles they've had recently?

Eyeballs?

[LA Muskie]

If they decided to go with Marquette or Villanova, fine, I get that. But Butler? I don't really see that being the best choice by Nike.

That really wasn't an option. There were 3 Big East teams, and they could only keep 2.

The lineup was set in August 2012 when Xavier and Butler were both A-10 members -- although at that time Butler had just joined and had not yet played an A-10 game. Georgetown and UConn were the original Big East teams selected. But there were no CUSA teams selected, so realignment didn't create a similar issue with respect to the AAC.

What I'd like to know is how we ended up being the odd man out...

[xufan02]

Hopefully Butler gets some solid recruits in 2016 or they could get embarrassed at the tourney.

[BMoreX]

That really wasn't an option. There were 3 Big East teams, and they could only keep 2.

The lineup was set in August 2012 when Xavier and Butler were both A-10 members -- although at that time Butler had just joined and had not yet played an A-10 game. Georgetown and UConn were the original Big East teams selected. But there were no CUSA teams selected, so realignment didn't create a similar issue with respect to the AAC.

What I'd like to know is how we ended up being the odd man out...

Ah, you're right. I forgot about that original list. I thought they'd just re-do it all after all of the realignment changes.

But still, like you said, I'd like to know why they picked Butler over X.

[PMI]

Eyeballs?

Who watches Butler? Their own fans? The ones who can't even fill up their high school gym? I'm sure they've got a huge following in Oregon...

Seriously, there is absolutely no way to make an argument that Butler is remotely close to us in virtually anything regarding basketball programs from now through 2017. Not a thing. In fact, if you look at the outlook of the conference as a whole over the next few years, we are clearly in the upper half while they are clearly in the bottom half. I'm sure there's some explanation for this, but I don't know what it is. All I know, is that no reasonable person looked at the three Big East teams and determined Butler was in the top 2 for the foreseeable future.

[waggy]

Butler might draw more eyeballs nationally because of back to back FF appears. Makes some sense.

[Milhouse]

Well honestly we got both JP and Blueitt because Butler sucks so I think this was more than a fair trade off. They can go 0-3 in the Nike tournaments and we can absolutely dominate them for 4 years with one player that was about to commit (then Stevens left in the middle of the night) and one player that they couldn't lock down in their own backyard.

Sucks to suck.

[BandAid]

That really wasn't an option. There were 3 Big East teams, and they could only keep 2.

The lineup was set in August 2012 when Xavier and Butler were both A-10 members -- although at that time Butler had just joined and had not yet played an A-10 game. Georgetown and UConn were the original Big East teams selected. But there were no CUSA teams selected, so realignment didn't create a similar issue with respect to the AAC.

What I'd like to know is how we ended up being the odd man out...

My guess: alphabetical order

[PMI]

Butler might draw more eyeballs nationally because of back to back FF appears. Makes some sense.

I strongly disagree. Xavier is fairly likely be a ranked team in 2017, if you tried to predict that far into the future with what we know now. Butler will be seven years removed from their last run and it's very realistic that they'll enter that season on a four year streak of missing the tournament. It really doesn't make any sense at all.

[LadyMuskie]

Butler might draw more eyeballs nationally because of back to back FF appears. Makes some sense.

How many years will it have been that they played back to back FFs by the time this tourney rolls around? I'd say it was either alphabetical, or trying to even out the field a bit by putting some teams that may not fair as well in with the top competitors so Butler stayed in play of us.

[paulxu]

The lineup was set in August 2012 when Xavier and Butler were both A-10 members -- although at that time Butler had just joined and had not yet played an A-10 game. What I'd like to know is how we ended up being the odd man out...

It would be very interesting to know what the real reason they kept Butler and dropped us.

Speaking of the odd man out...the A10 went from 2 teams in the event...to 0 teams in the event.

[waggy]

Alphabetical! Love it!

[SkyWalker]

My guess: alphabetical order

Maybe Rock, Paper, Scissors

[OH.X.MI]

I hope we DESTROY butler the next few years and I mean embarrass the crap out of them. Not that they had anything do with this, but still. Such BS.

[XUMIOH12]

If you watch the video, at the 2:05 mark, Katz adds the caveat "The Butler promise kind of came out of their success in back to back final fours". Not sure if that was an actual promise made to Butler years ago, or just a way to defend having Butler in this tournament. Either way, they are probably the 14th best team in that tournament and will go 0-3, unless they face Portland/St

[muskiefan82]

All I can see is the opportunity to be in a different tournament OR do our own.

[Nildogg]

I was curious what the reaction would be over here when I saw the news myself.

Have to say that I'm pleasantly surprised! I do think some of the comments here are based on the inferiority complex a few of you have due to the lack of having a Final Four. Who knows maybe that will change one of these days? Bottom line, results speak volumes, and our two appearances in the Championship game less than 5 years ago have certainly drawn a larger national audience to Butler than X, rankings or no rankings. There's no doubt you have a very strong brand, but it doesn't match up in many peoples minds, and perhaps the less obsessed CBB fans that can't possibly follow it as closely as you and I, that will be more aware of the tournament runs we've enjoyed than last years disaster.

Also, before you go bashing Hinkle again, you might want to check out the place post renovation. Not that the pictures I've seen here during the renovation aren't entertaining, they just don't hold water anymore. I'm sure it will never live up to your home court in your minds, but its certainly no "High School Gym".

Looking forward to playing you guys this year and seeing TB on the court; you certainly STOLE one there...

[xubrew]

Butler has been with Nike longer than X has. I believe XU's deal was only for five years, and actually expires before the tournament, unless they've signed a new one, which they may have. That's honestly not the kind of thing I pay all that much attention to.

[boozehound]

It would be difficult to imagine that Butler garners more national interest than X. Butler's own fans couldn't fill up a relatively small arena when they had Brad Stevens as a coach and had just made a Final 4 run. I can't imagine anyone who isn't a Butler fan cares that much, particularly when their own fans do not.

[X-band '01]

I was curious what the reaction would be over here when I saw the news myself.

Have to say that I'm pleasantly surprised! I do think some of the comments here are based on the inferiority complex a few of you have due to the lack of having a Final Four. Who knows maybe that will change one of these days? Bottom line, results speak volumes, and our two appearances in the Championship game less than 5 years ago have certainly drawn a larger national audience to Butler than X, rankings or no rankings. There's no doubt you have a very strong brand, but it doesn't match up in many peoples minds, and perhaps the less obsessed CBB fans that can't possibly follow it as closely as you and I, that will be more aware of the tournament runs we've enjoyed than last years disaster.

Also, before you go bashing Hinkle again, you might want to check out the place post renovation. Not that the pictures I've seen here during the renovation aren't entertaining, they just don't hold water anymore. I'm sure it will never live up to your home court in your minds, but its certainly no "High School Gym".

Looking forward to playing you guys this year and seeing TB on the court; you certainly STOLE one there...

You've got to learn to not use initials on this board; that is what dayton fans do.

[SpectorJersey]

Sure Butler has some post season success with Brad, but I think their trajectory is on the way down with the coaching situation going on. While Butler has got some decent recruits, its not enough to get to the top of the Big east.

[SpectorJersey]

can someone look up our record against butler in the last 4 years or so? I believe we have beaten them up pretty much every year, swept them last year

[Nildogg]

It would be difficult to imagine that Butler garners more national interest than X. Butler's own fans couldn't fill up a relatively small arena when they had Brad Stevens as a coach and had just made a Final 4 run. I can't imagine anyone who isn't a Butler fan cares that much, particularly when their own fans do not.

Your logic is flawed. I think you (and others... including our own fans sometimes) fail to recognize that local interest does not equate to national interest.
Butler has long been known to be a bigger commodity from a national perspective than a on a local level.
Obviously tons of CBB fans in Central Indiana, but the fact is that their allegiance is with other schools, and our alumni base is just not big enough to count on selling out every game with an NBA team in our back yard. This isn't about Xavier, but your local attendance benefits from the advantage of not having an NBA team in the city for sure, and Cincinnati certainly does not have the following of a team like IU in our backyard either. We know you hate Butler, but the championship runs built a brand, and it would take a much longer sustained time of failure (which isn't going to happen) for that to be washed away...

Now as it goes with X; the run of sweet 16s / E8's is very impressive, and known to those close to CBB; but the fringe fans or those that don't watch Basketball too closely (without a local connection) are going to gravitate to a school "like" Butler until you crack into the F4/National championship scene... Maybe that isn't too far off, but it isn't a reality today.

[Muskie]

I'm disappointed we now are not in the tournament. But I'm sure Mario will find us some competitive games to make up for the lull. As for why they chose Butler, I'm sure they do have a little more notoriety than X because of the back to back final fours (which are more recent than our run of Elite 8's and Sweet 16's).

At the end of the day, it's a holiday tournament. We have no idea what any of those squads (including ours) will look like. It may look great on paper in 2014. But that's a lifetime from 2017.

[BMoreX]

can someone look up our record against butler in the last 4 years or so? I believe we have beaten them up pretty much every year, swept them last year

Last four years: Xavier leads 5-1

[Michigan Muskie]

Butler has long been known to be a bigger commodity from a national perspective than a on a local level.

I bet if you asked 100 people in San Francisco where Butler is, 96 of them would guess Downton Abbey. (This coming from someone who fully recognizes that many people don't know Xavier is in Cincinnati.) Seriously, congrats on the back-to-back runner up finishes 4-5 years ago...no denying it was an incredible accomplishment for the program. However, it's possible your perception of the nation's long-time recognition of Butler basketball may be juuuust a tad off.


Now as it goes with X; the run of sweet 16s / E8's is very impressive, and known to those close to CBB; but the fringe fans or those that don't watch Basketball too closely (without a local connection) are going to gravitate to a school "like" Butler until you crack into the F4/National championship scene... Maybe that isn't too far off, but it isn't a reality today.

Ah -- that explains why I see so many fringe fans sporting VCU, Wichita State and George Mason jerseys. And hell, you can't walk into a bar in Michigan during college hoops season and not overhear someone talking about Butler.

Wait...what?

I guess if there's any glimmer of hope for us in the lowly Xavier basketball community, while all these fans you're speaking of across America have purportedly gravitated toward Butler basketball, some really, really good basketball players seem to be choosing a different destination.

[boozehound]

Your logic is flawed. I think you (and others... including our own fans sometimes) fail to recognize that local interest does not equate to national interest.
Butler has long been known to be a bigger commodity from a national perspective than a on a local level.
Obviously tons of CBB fans in Central Indiana, but the fact is that their allegiance is with other schools, and our alumni base is just not big enough to count on selling out every game with an NBA team in our back yard. This isn't about Xavier, but your local attendance benefits from the advantage of not having an NBA team in the city for sure, and Cincinnati certainly does not have the following of a team like IU in our backyard either. We know you hate Butler, but the championship runs built a brand, and it would take a much longer sustained time of failure (which isn't going to happen) for that to be washed away...

Now as it goes with X; the run of sweet 16s / E8's is very impressive, and known to those close to CBB; but the fringe fans or those that don't watch Basketball too closely (without a local connection) are going to gravitate to a school "like" Butler until you crack into the F4/National championship scene... Maybe that isn't too far off, but it isn't a reality today.

I think you are overestimating how much the casual fan cares about title games that small schools played in 5 years ago, particularly within the context of watching a bad team play in the present day. George Mason made a Final 4 run a while back. People outside of George Mason gave a crap for a year or 2 and then stopped caring when they didn't stay in the Top 25. On the national scale people care about who is ranked that year. I think it is almost a virtual certainty that Butler is not going to be a good team in 2016.

Butler is in a bad way right now. They have a coach who is AWOL, with most assuming he won't return. The timing of this is terrible for Butler, because they aren't going to be able to hire a coach until the offseason. So they are going to have to spend a season in limbo with some form of 'acting' Head Coach before being able to hire a new coach. Missing badly on a head coach is a big deal for programs like Butler (and Xavier, for that matter) because it takes longer to get back. You aren't going to hire a guy who is going to bring in a bunch of Top 25 recruits and win in Year 1. It's going to take at least 2-3 years, and that's assuming you make a good hire. I expect Butler to be a dumpster fire this year and next year. Maybe by 2016 we start to see the first signs of a turnaround.

I'm not one who minimizes the accomplishment of making even 1 title game, much less back-to-back title games. That is something you guys should never stop being proud of your team for doing. I just don't think it is going to be of much interest to the casual fan when Butler is down by 30 points in the Nike tournament in 2016. When Butler is competitive again, it may matter to the casual fan, but nobody is going to want to watch a bad team play because they had 2 excellent teams a while back. The same thing goes for Xavier and their run of Sweet 16's and Elite 8's as well. When we were bad, nobody outside of our fanbase cared about them.

[Nildogg]

I think you are overestimating how much the casual fan cares about title games that small schools played in 5 years ago, particularly within the context of watching a bad team play in the present day. George Mason made a Final 4 run a while back. People outside of George Mason gave a crap for a year or 2 and then stopped caring when they didn't stay in the Top 25. On the national scale people care about who is ranked that year. I think it is almost a virtual certainty that Butler is not going to be a good team in 2016.

Butler is in a bad way right now. They have a coach who is AWOL, with most assuming he won't return. The timing of this is terrible for Butler, because they aren't going to be able to hire a coach until the offseason. So they are going to have to spend a season in limbo with some form of 'acting' Head Coach before being able to hire a new coach. Missing badly on a head coach is a big deal for programs like Butler (and Xavier, for that matter) because it takes longer to get back. You aren't going to hire a guy who is going to bring in a bunch of Top 25 recruits and win in Year 1. It's going to take at least 2-3 years, and that's assuming you make a good hire. I expect Butler to be a dumpster fire this year and next year. Maybe by 2016 we start to see the first signs of a turnaround.

I'm not one who minimizes the accomplishment of making even 1 title game, much less back-to-back title games. That is something you guys should never stop being proud of your team for doing. I just don't think it is going to be of much interest to the casual fan when Butler is down by 30 points in the Nike tournament in 2016. When Butler is competitive again, it may matter to the casual fan, but nobody is going to want to watch a bad team play because they had 2 excellent teams a while back. The same thing goes for Xavier and their run of Sweet 16's and Elite 8's as well. When we were bad, nobody outside of our fanbase cared about them.

I don't disagree with a lot of the things you guys are saying about the current state of things... its ugly, but I also believe that it is going to be a much better year this year and next. And given the state of change that we've gone through, its no surprise that recruiting has seen some snags. I think in a couple of weeks some coaching stability will be given to the program and that is what is needed most right now.

That said, I think you guys still are trying to rationalize things that aren't really to the heart of what I am saying... Butler is a better ratings draw than a lot of other teams. There is a brand that has been built over the past 10 years or so, but most importantly, and most glaringly, around those two crazy runs. I'm not talking about recruiting, I'm not talking about guys in bars, etc. I'm talking about the general public, who might or might not tune into a game, that is going to be more drawn to Butler, than a lot of other names because of the perception that was built those two years. Sure, it can be broken, sure others will eventually take that away... but for now, someone might not know where Butler is (does it really matter?) but they'll more than likely have heard of Butler and probably remember that they had some big success recently...

I just hope it can sustain while we recover from the shock-waves of the past year and a half or so... The "disaster" is really relatively a very short time - it just looms large for those that are CBB obsessed and follow it every day. And even more so for those that like to hate Butler :)

[Nildogg]

wait a second.. I just re-read that line about it being a "virtual certainty" that Butler is not going to be a good team in 2016... say what?
Are you predicting certain doom next year, or is it 2 years from now??

And we'll see about that dumpster fire this year and next. I'll check back in later in the year and see what you think about that.

[Milhouse]

I kinda feel like Butler is going to go the route of UD. Just without the massive fanbase.

Always talking about their glory days of Brad Stevens/Back to Back Final Fours. And then not have any players drafted/few tournament wins in the next 30 years.

It seems like the worst thing possible for them now would actually be brandon miller returning....

[boozehound]

That said, I think you guys still are trying to rationalize things that aren't really to the heart of what I am saying... Butler is a better ratings draw than a lot of other teams. There is a brand that has been built over the past 10 years or so, but most importantly, and most glaringly, around those two crazy runs. I'm not talking about recruiting, I'm not talking about guys in bars, etc. I'm talking about the general public, who might or might not tune into a game, that is going to be more drawn to Butler, than a lot of other names because of the perception that was built those two years. Sure, it can be broken, sure others will eventually take that away... but for now, someone might not know where Butler is (does it really matter?) but they'll more than likely have heard of Butler and probably remember that they had some big success recently...


I don't think we are trying to rationalize anything. I just fundamentally disagree with your assessment. We don't have access to Nielsen ratings data by game to prove anybody right or wrong, so everything we are talking about here is opinion and conjecture anyways.

Having said that: your argument seems to be that a bad Butler team is still a better national ratings draw than another, better, team because of their back-to-back title runs. Despite that fact, Butler still can't get their own fans to attend games. So somehow the brand you have established is more relevant on a national level than it is on a local level.

My argument is that people who have no rooting interest in either team just want to watch good teams play. Period. They aren't all that interested in the history, the just care about how good that team is, or is projected to be, that season.

[boozehound]

wait a second.. I just re-read that line about it being a "virtual certainty" that Butler is not going to be a good team in 2016... say what?
Are you predicting certain doom next year, or is it 2 years from now??

And we'll see about that dumpster fire this year and next. I'll check back in later in the year and see what you think about that.

That is correct. I think Butler will still be recovering from their current in 2016. That is operating under the assumption that Brandon Miller does not return. If he does return then things could be different.

2013-2014 - Butler finished second to last in the Big East with a 4-14 conference record
2014-2015 - I would expect somewhat similar to last season results. Unclear who the coach is going to be. Hard to imagine that not impacting recruiting.
2015-2016 - Wild card, but Dunham, Jones, and Etherington should all be gone

I could certainly be wrong. We will find out.

[Nildogg]

Having said that: your argument seems to be that a bad Butler team is still a better national ratings draw than another, better, team because of their back-to-back title runs. Despite that fact, Butler still can't get their own fans to attend games. So somehow the brand you have established is more relevant on a national level than it is on a local level.

My argument is that people who have no rooting interest in either team just want to watch good teams play. Period. They aren't all that interested in the history, the just care about how good that team is, or is projected to be, that season.

Yes. My point exactly. Except, I don't agree with not being able to get "our own fans" to attend... there just simply isn't a huge base of local fans, the people that fill up Hinkle on sell out's have stronger allegiances to other programs. The nature of CBB is that you are first and foremost a fan of your Alma matter, and Indiana/ Indianapolis is flooded with Indiana U and Purdue fans.

And I don't disagree with your second point either, but people don't always know "who is good" this year and that... its the same reason why the Big 5 schools have a perception of being good because they are a Big school and because of the name on their uniform and we all know that is not reality.

[XUOHTX]

This thread:

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/d3/d3d98763ef0804d1d37e15426063960c49845db6bef2fb7453 c35eb06825b47e.jpg

[Nildogg]

That is correct. I think Butler will still be recovering from their current in 2016. That is operating under the assumption that Brandon Miller does not return. If he does return then things could be different.

2013-2014 - Butler finished second to last in the Big East with a 4-14 conference record
2014-2015 - I would expect somewhat similar to last season results. Unclear who the coach is going to be. Hard to imagine that not impacting recruiting.
2015-2016 - Wild card, but Dunham, Jones, and Etherington should all be gone

I could certainly be wrong. We will find out.

Sorry... you are wrong. Can't predict the future, but this team is MUCH better than last. I would put a reasonable wager on the fact that butler finishes no worse than 6th, with my belief that they could be 4th or 5th.. thats not a dumpster fire.
2015-2016 - an even better team, and yes, it will include Dunham, Jones and Etherington.

Now come 2016-2017; yes, something had better start happening on the recruiting trail, but that is way to far away to say its going to be a disaster.

[boozehound]

Yes. My point exactly. Except, I don't agree with not being able to get "our own fans" to attend... there just simply isn't a huge base of local fans, the people that fill up Hinkle on sell out's have stronger allegiances to other programs. The nature of CBB is that you are first and foremost a fan of your Alma matter, and Indiana/ Indianapolis is flooded with Indiana U and Purdue fans.


Fair point, I guess. I just remember (I think it was the season immediately following one of the title games) that Butler was having a tough time with attendance, and I couldn't believe it. They are located in a major city, it's not like they are in Muncie, IN or something. Even with only 4K undergrad enrollment I would still have expected a large enough alumni base in Indy to fill, or almost fill, the Arena.

[XU 87]

Yes. My point exactly. Except, I don't agree with not being able to get "our own fans" to attend... there just simply isn't a huge base of local fans, the people that fill up Hinkle on sell out's have stronger allegiances to other programs. The nature of CBB is that you are first and foremost a fan of your Alma matter, and Indiana/ Indianapolis is flooded with Indiana U and Purdue fans.



Greater Cincinnati is flooded with UC, OSU, and UK fans. But somehow XU manages to get 9500 plus fans for every game. And IU and Purdue aren't 5 miles down the road from Butler.

Bottom line- XU basketball has much stronger support from its alumni than does Butler, as evidenced by attendance at home games.

But you guys better start recruiting better and stop stealing recruits from MAC schools. If not, you will always be in the cellar of the Big East.

[GoMuskies]

I think Butler is on the list of schools like Gonzaga and Wichita State that people are interested in and would tend to watch over others right now (including Xavier). I think Butler's time on that list is going to end much quicker than Gonzaga's (15 years and running) and Wichita State (actually still has a good team), though. By 2016, I would expect Xavier to have had much more recent success than Butler and to be much more interesting to a national TV audience.

[nuts4xu]

The juice Butler will get for those back to back final four appearances, will last a long time. I have no issue with Butler being selected over Xavier, and look forward to the day where we can tout the same accomplishments. Our Elite 8's are becoming more difficult to see in the rear view mirror, and it would be nice if we could make a few more runs like that in the coming years.

Comparing Butler to UD is way off base. The banners Butler has in their gym are still relevant to college basketball and to recruits today. Outside of last season, UD didn't win a tourney game in 30 years. Butler had sweet 16 runs before their FF appearances, and they were very recent.

Not that one has anything to do with the other, but my hope is we will avoid having to sit out the Big East / Big Ten tournaments planned for the near future. Perhaps Butler will be one of the 2 schools chosen to sit out the first round of those events.

Things have a way of balancing out. I am not worried in the least about Xavier in 2016 no matter what teams are on our schedule.

[PMI]

I was curious what the reaction would be over here when I saw the news myself.

Have to say that I'm pleasantly surprised! I do think some of the comments here are based on the inferiority complex a few of you have due to the lack of having a Final Four. Who knows maybe that will change one of these days? Bottom line, results speak volumes, and our two appearances in the Championship game less than 5 years ago have certainly drawn a larger national audience to Butler than X, rankings or no rankings. There's no doubt you have a very strong brand, but it doesn't match up in many peoples minds, and perhaps the less obsessed CBB fans that can't possibly follow it as closely as you and I, that will be more aware of the tournament runs we've enjoyed than last years disaster.

Also, before you go bashing Hinkle again, you might want to check out the place post renovation. Not that the pictures I've seen here during the renovation aren't entertaining, they just don't hold water anymore. I'm sure it will never live up to your home court in your minds, but its certainly no "High School Gym".

Looking forward to playing you guys this year and seeing TB on the court; you certainly STOLE one there...

Hahahahaha. This has got to be one of the funnier, more delusional posts I've seen here in awhile. I literally don't think it's possible to have an inferiority complex with Butler. Jealous of the miracle runs? Absolutely. But that's WAY over, and we aren't even in 2017 yet. Congrats on spending $35 million to bring your crappy gym up to the 19th century. I'm sure that new water fountain is a real gem. What I find most amusing is that you think Butler has some big time national brand. Bigger nationally than locally? Are you REALLY going to try to make that claim? I have some cold, hard news for you. Butler doesn't matter anymore. They mattered for a couple March's when they inexplicably managed to make an incredible Cinderella run. By 2017, that will have been ancient history, and they'll have been well acquainted with their role as the "one-of-these-things-is-not-like-the-other" program of the Big East. Enjoy watching Bluiett and Macura score tons of points in meaningful games over the next four years while you reminisce about the day you won the lottery. At least in your mind, you'll still be convinced that Butler is some big time, nationally relevant program while they're getting wiped up by actual big time teams to the embarrassment of our league.

[PMI]

The juice Butler will get for those back to back final four appearances, will last a long time. I have no issue with Butler being selected over Xavier, and look forward to the day where we can tout the same accomplishments. Our Elite 8's are becoming more difficult to see in the rear view mirror, and it would be nice if we could make a few more runs like that in the coming years.

Comparing Butler to UD is way off base. The banners Butler has in their gym are still relevant to college basketball and to recruits today. Outside of last season, UD didn't win a tourney game in 30 years. Butler had sweet 16 runs before their FF appearances, and they were very recent.

Not that one has anything to do with the other, but my hope is we will avoid having to sit out the Big East / Big Ten tournaments planned for the near future. Perhaps Butler will be one of the 2 schools chosen to sit out the first round of those events.

Things have a way of balancing out. I am not worried in the least about Xavier in 2016 no matter what teams are on our schedule.

So Butler's runs "will last a long time" while ours are far in the rearview mirror? By 2017, the kids who will be playing in college basketball will have not even remembered Butler, because they weren't old enough to stay up late enough to see their Final Four games. College basketball is very fluid and changes very quickly. You can only live off the past for so long unless you have a legendary coach or program. Butler sans Stevens hardly qualifies as such.

[OH.X.MI]

Hahahahaha. What I find most amusing is that you think Butler has some big time national brand. Bigger nationally than locally? Are you REALLY going to try to make that claim?

Haha that really is the most outrageous logic I've ever seen.... Hey we can't fill a stadium in our own city, but the "country" cares about us!! The country cares I tell you!


I'm not talking about recruiting, I'm not talking about guys in bars, etc. I'm talking about the general public, who might or might not tune into a game, that is going to be more drawn to Butler, than a lot of other names because of the perception that was built those two years.

I'll give you this Nildog, my great aunt thought Brad Stevens was handsome, but she's repeatedly called Butler Cutler University. If that's the general public attention you want you can have it, bro.

[xubrew]

Butler is in a bad way right now. They have a coach who is AWOL, with most assuming he won't return. The timing of this is terrible for Butler, because they aren't going to be able to hire a coach until the offseason. So they are going to have to spend a season in limbo with some form of 'acting' Head Coach before being able to hire a new coach. Missing badly on a head coach is a big deal for programs like Butler (and Xavier, for that matter) because it takes longer to get back. You aren't going to hire a guy who is going to bring in a bunch of Top 25 recruits and win in Year 1. It's going to take at least 2-3 years, and that's assuming you make a good hire. I expect Butler to be a dumpster fire this year and next year. Maybe by 2016 we start to see the first signs of a turnaround.

People keep saying this, and they're right to a point. But...the "some form of acting head coach" is Chris Holtmann. Again, at three years at Gardner Webb he went from fine wins to 20+ wins and made them one of the better teams in the conference. He was a hot item and a lot of schools had him on their list. Butler made a huge mistake not considering him. Then, they some how get him to come there as an assistant, and now he is the head coach. Butler leads one of the most charmed existences imaginable. They didn't hire the guy they should have hired, and then when things went wrong, they ended up with the guy they should have hired.


That said, I think you guys still are trying to rationalize things that aren't really to the heart of what I am saying... Butler is a better ratings draw than a lot of other teams. There is a brand that has been built over the past 10 years or so, but most importantly, and most glaringly, around those two crazy runs. I'm not talking about recruiting, I'm not talking about guys in bars, etc. I'm talking about the general public, who might or might not tune into a game, that is going to be more drawn to Butler, than a lot of other names because of the perception that was built those two years. Sure, it can be broken, sure others will eventually take that away... but for now, someone might not know where Butler is (does it really matter?) but they'll more than likely have heard of Butler and probably remember that they had some big success recently...

Have you seen the ratings?? "Guys in bars" aren't watching either team right now. The Big East averaged a 0.06 last year. They didn't keep Butler and ditch Xavier because of ratings. The fact of the matter is both of them are really bad compared to the rest of the field, and if ratings were the issue they should have dropped both of them.

To be fair, I don't agree with anyone's rational on this thread as to why they kept Butler and ditched us. Butler has been with Nike longer. Furthermore, I believe Xavier's contract with Nike expires before the tournament, and Butler's does not.

That's why you're in. It isn't because they considered them to be of significantly higher interest than Xavier. Truth be told, if you look at the ratings, there aren't very many people that are interested in either team. You just have a more extensive contact with Nike. Nothing more.

[nuts4xu]

So Butler's runs "will last a long time" while ours are far in the rearview mirror?

I never said "far in the rearview mirror", I merely stated they "are becoming more difficult to see". Butler was runner up in the tourney, in back to back years, just 3 and 4 seasons ago. This is a story not because they were VCU or George Mason for a season, and made the Final Four, they went to the championship game...and nearly won the second one. You would have to reach far into the history books to find a school from a non Big 6 conference that had that type of success. They not only went farther than most of the Cinderellas of the past, they did it twice...in back to back years. This was just 2010 and 2011. I agree the turnover they have had, especially in the coaching staff, has done nothing to further the program. But for that period of a few years, they were a big story in the sports world...much bigger than we have ever been.

Xavier has a more reliable track record of going to the NCAA's and making runs, but we haven't made the Elite 8 in 6 years. Our first Elite 8 is 10 years old, which isn't a lifetime by any means. But as you admit, things change quickly in college basketball.

I am confident we will continue to flourish and consistently win big games. Our brand is built over a longer period of time and is built to last. But I can see why the Butler FF's would be more memorable at this point to the average college basketball fan, than some of our deeper runs. In 2017 kids will hear (or have heard) the stories how mid major Butler nearly won the NC - twice in back to back years - so they can too. They won't be told stories of how Xavier made the final 5 and nearly knocked off Duke in 2004, but Thad Matta wasn't smart enough to get Anthony Myles out of the game before picking up his 5th foul.

[Always Learning]

You can bet on it!
THE Columbus School of Nonsense said, "its them or us." and so life goes on.
The head coach of THE School of Nonsense took one look at our young roster and said "no way."

[Always Learning]

Well that really sucks. Any chance that OSU had anything to do with it? That tournament with those high-profile schools is going to be ridiculous. Glad the powerhouse Portland State gets our spot (not).

You can bet on it!
THE Columbus School of Nonsense said, "its them or us." and so life goes on.
The head coach of THE School of Nonsense took one look at our young roster and said "no way."

[xubrew]

You can bet on it!
THE Columbus School of Nonsense said, "its them or us." and so life goes on.
The head coach of THE School of Nonsense took one look at our young roster and said "no way."

I'm not a betting man, but if I were I'd bet a lot of money against this being what happened.

[PMI]

I never said "far in the rearview mirror", I merely stated they "are becoming more difficult to see". Butler was runner up in the tourney, in back to back years, just 3 and 4 seasons ago. This is a story not because they were VCU or George Mason for a season, and made the Final Four, they went to the championship game...and nearly won the second one. You would have to reach far into the history books to find a school from a non Big 6 conference that had that type of success. They not only went farther than most of the Cinderellas of the past, they did it twice...in back to back years. This was just 2010 and 2011. I agree the turnover they have had, especially in the coaching staff, has done nothing to further the program. But for that period of a few years, they were a big story in the sports world...much bigger than we have ever been.

Xavier has a more reliable track record of going to the NCAA's and making runs, but we haven't made the Elite 8 in 6 years. Our first Elite 8 is 10 years old, which isn't a lifetime by any means. But as you admit, things change quickly in college basketball.

I am confident we will continue to flourish and consistently win big games. Our brand is built over a longer period of time and is built to last. But I can see why the Butler FF's would be more memorable at this point to the average college basketball fan, than some of our deeper runs. In 2017 kids will hear (or have heard) the stories how mid major Butler nearly won the NC - twice in back to back years - so they can too. They won't be told stories of how Xavier made the final 5 and nearly knocked off Duke in 2004, but Thad Matta wasn't smart enough to get Anthony Myles out of the game before picking up his 5th foul.

I don't disagree with you in terms of the relevance of what they did (in comparison to us or anyone else.) But anyone who was an eligible freshman in the 2011 season, their second straight NC appearance, is no longer in college basketball (with the possible exception of some medical redshirt guys perhaps.) Much more importantly, Brad Stevens is no longer in college basketball. I understand that you are referring to the perception of Butler by the common fan, not just the players and coaches, but I guess I just disagree that Butler has remained some household name. I don't think they're on anyone's radar who isn't a true college hoops fan. I would bet that many casual observers don't even know what conference Butler is in today. I definitely can promise you they aren't in the top 2 of the recognizable names in the Big East (I would go with Georgetown and Marquette.) I'm not just picking on them, as we aren't exactly Kentucky when it comes to exposure either, but I definitely think we are more "on the radar" right now than Butler. The line in your post that I disagree with is that the juice will last a long time. You can't take their history away from them, but look at how far they've fallen since they lost their coach. I don't think they are a tournament team this year. They aren't all of a sudden landing any super highly rated recruits with the pitch that their previous coach took them to back to back title games. I don't really think there's any juice left to squeeze there. The casual fan that looks at the Nike tournament and sees names like Kentucky, Kansas, Michigan State, Duke, Georgetown and... Butler, is probably going to think "one of these things is not like the others." To our Butler friend, take it from a guy who lives in a very "national" place with people from all over: Butler does not have the national reputation that you think eludes only Indiana.

[xubrew]

I'm half expecting Butler to go down to Atlantis and pull off a big upset or two simply because that just seems to be what they do.

Since 2006, I've thought of them as being like a computer virus. You think you've gotten rid of them, but then they're back, and they somehow wreak even more havoc than they did the previous time.

[xudash]

Two thoughts to consider with all this:

1. Think of a dartboard. From the bullseye working outward through the concentric circles (i.e. triples to doubles in Cricket) you have passionate college basketball fans in the bullseye, working out to casual or disinterested people on the edge of the board. The passionate fans know basketball, and, even if they're young in some cases, assuming they're true students of the game, may even be somewhat aware, as an example, of John Wooden and the UCLA "era." At the very least, passionate fans have a handle on which team is in what conference for at least the important conferences and which teams have solid NCAA Tournament reputations over the last number of years. Overall, as one example of all this: Butler fans are in the bullseye for Butler basketball; A10, Horizon and Big East fans know of their runs; fans of schools like Mason and VCU probably know, given the unexpected mid-major performance thing; and sports fans (translation: college football zealots) at schools like the University of Alabama have never heard of Butler to a large degree. This is truly an abstract point, but so is the discussion of relevance, brand and who remembers what.

2. The more important thought to consider is today's media environment. We ARE NOT in Wooden's era; hell, we're not even in Al McGuire's era. We have sports on every conceivable media platform almost 24 x 7 with multiple overlapping seasons. Within each primary sport, we have so much broadcast choice it isn't even funny. Overall, it's mostly about attention span, and the fact that people move on to the next thing very quickly and very constantly.

Butler should be proud of having those two runs. Otherwise, the vast majority of everyone else is living in November 2014 focused on the here and now, not what any of us - X, Butler, pick a school - have done since a little bit more than yesterday.

[PMI]

Two thoughts to consider with all this:

1. Think of a dartboard. From the bullseye working outward through the concentric circles (i.e. triples to doubles in Cricket) you have passionate college basketball fans in the bullseye, working out to casual or disinterested people on the edge of the board. The passionate fans know basketball, and, even if they're young in some cases, assuming they're true students of the game, may even be somewhat aware, as an example, of John Wooden and the UCLA "era." At the very least, passionate fans have a handle on which team is in what conference for at least the important conferences and which teams have solid NCAA Tournament reputations over the last number of years. Overall, as one example of all this: Butler fans are in the bullseye for Butler basketball; A10, Horizon and Big East fans know of their runs; fans of schools like Mason and VCU probably know, given the unexpected mid-major performance thing; and sports fans (translation: college football zealots) at schools like the University of Alabama have never heard of Butler to a large degree. This is truly an abstract point, but so is the discussion of relevance, brand and who remembers what.

2. The more important thought to consider is today's media environment. We ARE NOT in Wooden's era; hell, we're not even in Al McGuire's era. We have sports on every conceivable media platform almost 24 x 7 with multiple overlapping seasons. Within each primary sport, we have so much broadcast choice it isn't even funny. Overall, it's mostly about attention span, and the fact that people move on to the next thing very quickly and very constantly.

Butler should be proud of having those two runs. Otherwise, the vast majority of everyone else is living in November 2014 focused on the here and now, not what any of us - X, Butler, pick a school - have done since a little bit more than yesterday.

I have two witnesses to what was by far the most amazing thing I've ever accomplished in any game or sport. At Danas in 2008, I hit a dead center bullseye on the dartboard, and on my next throw, I stuck the dart right through the back of the other dart. It literally stuck in the end perfectly and did not move for several minutes while I took pictures. The two darts were stuck together in a perfectly straight line, creating one long dart in the bullseye. It was downright heroic. The first bullseye was a little lucky because I'm not some awesome darts player. But the second shot was by far the least likely thing ever to be repeated, and was truly inexplicable. I think that experience can sort of metaphorically sum up Butler from 2010-2011.

[smileyy]

Always talking about their glory days of Brad Stevens/Back to Back Final Fours. And then not have any players drafted/few tournament wins in the next 30 years.


Let's not kid ourselves here -- If Xavier ever went to back to back National Championship games, every other post on this board would make reference to it for the next 10 years.

[PMI]

Let's not kid ourselves here -- If Xavier ever went to back to back National Championship games, every other post on this board would make reference to it for the next 10 years.

So what? We're fans, of course we would boast that. I'm willing to bet the outrage would be just as bad as ever here if a couple years after that our program was finishing last in the Big East.

[surfxu]

I have two witnesses to what was by far the most amazing thing I've ever accomplished in any game or sport. At Danas in 2008, I hit a dead center bullseye on the dartboard, and on my next throw, I stuck the dart right through the back of the other dart. It literally stuck in the end perfectly and did not move for several minutes while I took pictures. The two darts were stuck together in a perfectly straight line, creating one long dart in the bullseye. It was downright heroic. The first bullseye was a little lucky because I'm not some awesome darts player. But the second shot was by far the least likely thing ever to be repeated, and was truly inexplicable. I think that experience can sort of metaphorically sum up Butler from 2010-2011.

I'd say Butler may have actually hit FOUR bulls eyes in a row by following up those back to back title runs with and exit out of the Horizon league and into the A-10, the following up with an exit from the A-10 and into the Big East.

[LA Muskie]

To be fair, I don't agree with anyone's rational on this thread as to why they kept Butler and ditched us. Butler has been with Nike longer. Furthermore, I believe Xavier's contract with Nike expires before the tournament, and Butler's does not.
Having had a chance to think about things for a while, I tend to agree with this. I'm not sure about the contract issue, but I think the fact Butler has been a Nike school for longer may have played a role. Butler may also have been invited and/or accepted an invitation sooner (we really have no way of knowing; and Mario isn't really explaining the rationale). The one thing I am confident of is that it wasn't a ratings play -- like you say, neither school really garners material national ratings. I also tend to doubt that they played the "who will be better in 2017" game, both because it's entirely speculative and because the nature of that relationship is that Nike isn't going to shit on one of the schools.

[LA Muskie]

You can bet on it!
THE Columbus School of Nonsense said, "its them or us." and so life goes on.
The head coach of THE School of Nonsense took one look at our young roster and said "no way."

And out come the crazy conspiracy theories. What's the bet? I'll take it...

[LA Muskie]

Let's not kid ourselves here -- If Xavier ever went to back to back National Championship games, every other post on this board would make reference to it for the next 10 years.
You left out at least one zero.

[kyxu]

Let's not kid ourselves here -- If Xavier ever went to back to back National Championship games, every other post on this board would make reference to it for the next 10 years.

I am ashamed to say what I would do in exchange for back-to-back national championship game appearances for Xavier.

[PMI]

I am ashamed to say what I would do in exchange for back-to-back national championship game appearances for Xavier.

Don't worry, I heard we have Carmelo Anthony on our team...

[xudash]

I have two witnesses to what was by far the most amazing thing I've ever accomplished in any game or sport. At Danas in 2008, I hit a dead center bullseye on the dartboard, and on my next throw, I stuck the dart right through the back of the other dart. It literally stuck in the end perfectly and did not move for several minutes while I took pictures. The two darts were stuck together in a perfectly straight line, creating one long dart in the bullseye. It was downright heroic. The first bullseye was a little lucky because I'm not some awesome darts player. But the second shot was by far the least likely thing ever to be repeated, and was truly inexplicable. I think that experience can sort of metaphorically sum up Butler from 2010-2011.

Great story, and a hell of an achievement - dart skill or no dart skill. Especially where it took place and given the state of your liver at the time.

[paulxu]

Great story, and a hell of an achievement - dart skill or no dart skill. Especially where it took place and given the state of your liver at the time.

I think I'm going require photographic proof on this one.

[Xtemporaneous]

My thoughts and I'm not one to bitch on forums:

So I just did a simple search on wikipedia and just gauge people who I speak with about Xavier (so half is unscientific). I can almost guarantee you that Xavier has as much, if not more cachet than Butler. Yeah you had your glory days in 2010 and 2011. But other than that, what do you have in terms of tournament success? You have two S16 games in the modern era and you've been to the tournament a whole 12 times since 1962 (which is the first year that BU was in the tournament). Since 1961 which is the first year that XU was in the tournament, they have made 24 appearances in the NCAA tournament. That's DOUBLE the number of appearances that Butler has made. So you can't tell me that Xavier doesn't have as much cachet.

How many players have played in the NBA - Butler - 6. Xavier - 37.

Not to mention that Xavier has continually gone to Indiana - and Indianapolis more notably - and plucked prized recruits from your area. These are kids that both programs have been recruiting and we're pulling them from your back yard. Not to mention one of recent note now has 48 points in three games in his freshman year.

I like Butler don't get me wrong but the program rests on the nostalgia of a movie in a barn. The program is late to the upgrade game and they had a hell of a time trying to raise the funds to do that.

Speaking of funds who is on the Forbes most successful programs list? Butler? No. Xavier? Number 17. That should be a clear indicator to you who is a better "brand" name. We are ahead of programs like Pitt, Purdue, and Tennessee. Then there's this little nugget from the article - Xavier was also second only to Duke in money contributed to basketball scholarships. Link: http://www.forbes.com/pictures/emdm45efll/college-basketballs-most-valuable-teams-2/ granted this article is a little dated but this is after the runs to the FF.

Would I hang my hat on a FF appearance should Xavier make it? Hell yeah. But it would already strengthen a very strong brand known across the nation.

In my opinion, the Butler program right now is a dumpster fire. I hope it gets better but to say that Xavier doesn't have as much notoriety as Butler is ridiculous. Please. Honestly Butler was not ready to make the leap to the BIG EAST. You can't compete in a big boy league when you're two years removed from the Horizon.

[LA Muskie]

So I just did a simple search on wikipedia and just gauge people who I speak with about Xavier (so half is unscientific). I can almost guarantee you that Xavier has as much, if not more cachet than Butler.
No. No we don't.

[PMI]

No. No we don't.

Haha, guess this settles it...

[DC Muskie]

Recently I have worked with two young Butler grads. Neither knew much about their team. Of course both were chicks, but I never have trouble talking college hoops with chicks that graduated from Louisville, NC State or GTown grads.

[Nildogg]

Recently I have worked with two young Butler grads. Neither knew much about their team. Of course both were chicks, but I never have trouble talking college hoops with chicks that graduated from Louisville, NC State or GTown grads.

I think one of the biggest problems is apathy from our own students on campus. There is a nice core of solid student fans that make up one endzone of our student section every game, but otherwise filling our student sections and getting into the game is not a priority for most of them.

Saw something on our board that reminded me of this conversation so I thought I'd mention... If there is another good example of a similar phenomenon (although I am NOT comparing Butler to UCLA on any equal scale) just look at UCLA's pathetic crowds despite having 30,000+ students, and being in a bustling city, AND having the history they do. People still identify with UCLA, and you'd better bet they are a pretty good draw on the road.
Not sure this is the best example, but I just believe that your assertion that local support is proportional to national interest is wrong.

I do enjoy the reasonable discussion here though! A nice break from the constant bitching I see on our board.

[PMI]

Not sure this is the best example, but I just believe that your assertion that local support is proportional to national interest is wrong.

The problem is, you don't have any facts that support an argument that Butler somehow garners more "national interest." Exactly how does Butler have national appeal or cachet? Where does this show? Not in recruiting, since Stevens left. Not based on virtually any experience I've had as someone from about as "national" a place as there is. You are just assuming that Butler is a big ticket outside of Indianapolis, and it just isn't true. I can promise you that Georgetown fans did not view the Butler game as one of their big ones to come to town last year. My guess is neither did pretty much anyone else. I'm sure the low level OOC opponents you guys face view Butler as one of their "big games," but that's pretty much the same for most of the other Big East programs too. I would love to see any kind of proof from anyone of this supposed "Butler national interest." I find the whole thing pretty laughable, honestly.

[DC Muskie]

Just FYI, the Butler game at Georgetown had a larger attendance than the Xavier game this past season.

[PMI]

Just FYI, the Butler game at Georgetown had a larger attendance than the Xavier game this past season.

Not remotely sure what that is supposed to mean. The Xavier/Georgetown game was at 11 am and the Hoyas were coming off two straight losses to pretty crappy teams, whereas heading into the Butler game they were fresh off a win against the #7 team in the country and another road win. But if having 1,100 more fans for your half-full road game than the Hoyas drew for Xavier a few weeks later equates to "national interest" for Butler then I guess I can see the point.

[DC Muskie]

Not remotely sure what that is supposed to mean. The Xavier/Georgetown game was at 11 am and the Hoyas were coming off two straight losses to pretty crappy teams, whereas heading into the Butler game they were fresh off a win against the #7 team in the country and another road win. But if having 1,100 more fans for your half-full road game than the Hoyas drew for Xavier a few weeks later equates to "national interest" for Butler then I guess I can see the point.

The Butler game tipped off just two hours later than the Xavier game and was on CBS. You stated that GTown didn't view Butler as a big game. Well CBS thought it was bigger and an extra 1,100 people did as well. Just pointing out facts, I don't disagree with your premise.

[Nildogg]

Not remotely sure what that is supposed to mean. The Xavier/Georgetown game was at 11 am and the Hoyas were coming off two straight losses to pretty crappy teams, whereas heading into the Butler game they were fresh off a win against the #7 team in the country and another road win. But if having 1,100 more fans for your half-full road game than the Hoyas drew for Xavier a few weeks later equates to "national interest" for Butler then I guess I can see the point.

I don't expect you to get the strange dynamics of local and national interest that butler has with our limited alumni that happens to be spread all over the country, and the interest its generated across the country because of back to back national championship appearances less than 5 years ago, but its there. Don't feel alone, some of our own fans can't seem to grasp it either.

The struggles we have selling our Hinkle on a regular basis defies logic, but its real. As do the great crowds we bring to tournaments in Maui, Bahamas, Alaska, etc. I've seen where the fact that we are supposedly a good traveling fan base for tournaments helps our cause...

Xavier has done a good job leveraging local fans to putting on a good crowd, but I'd say that has almost as much to say about the lack of local entertainment options as anything. Your success and newer stadium obviously help as well; as does I'm sure your graduate level programs - bringing more into the Xavier "alumni" category.

I'm no expert in this by any means, but I think I understand Butler's situation pretty well, where I am guessing much of your opinions lie in bias due to being an Xavier fan. It would be fair to say the same about me, but I don't think its clouding my observations over the past 15+ years going to home games and traveling to many road games and observing with interest in our struggles of filling Hinkle on a regular basis. Which, relatively speaking to the rest of D1, is not as bad as you like to paint; even if it falls short of even my own expectations.

[XUFan09]

I don't expect you to get the strange dynamics of local and national interest that butler has with our limited alumni that happens to be spread all over the country, and the interest its generated across the country because of back to back national championship appearances less than 5 years ago, but its there. Don't feel alone, some of our own fans can't seem to grasp it either.

The struggles we have selling our Hinkle on a regular basis defies logic, but its real. As do the great crowds we bring to tournaments in Maui, Bahamas, Alaska, etc. I've seen where the fact that we are supposedly a good traveling fan base for tournaments helps our cause...

Xavier has done a good job leveraging local fans to putting on a good crowd, but I'd say that has almost as much to say about the lack of local entertainment options as anything. Your success and newer stadium obviously help as well; as does I'm sure your graduate level programs - bringing more into the Xavier "alumni" category.

I'm no expert in this by any means, but I think I understand Butler's situation pretty well, where I am guessing much of your opinions lie in bias due to being an Xavier fan. It would be fair to say the same about me, but I don't think its clouding my observations over the past 15+ years going to home games and traveling to many road games and observing with interest in our struggles of filling Hinkle on a regular basis. Which, relatively speaking to the rest of D1, is not as bad as you like to paint; even if it falls short of even my own expectations.

Two things:

1) Having a diffused fanbase that travels well, though commendable, is not the same thing as garnering national interest in your program. "Garnering national interest" means gaining the notice of the average sports fan or, at minimum, the average college basketball fan, not alumni that happened to live somewhere else after graduation. Butler doesn't achieve that beyond a minor recognition of something they accomplished a few years ago; minor recognition does not equate to eyes on a television screen. Butler still registers piss-poor ratings, like Xavier. In a competition of piss-poor ratings, Butler would probably win over Xavier due to the recent national title appearances, but no one really would care about that competition outside the more hardcore members our fanbases. Ratings-wise, we're well behind multiple programs in our own conference, without even mentioning members of other power conferences, so it's like racing to not come in last place in a track meet.

2) "...but I'd say that has almost as much to say about the lack of local entertainment options as anything." This is such an ignorant statement, and I'm not even from Cincinnati, nor have I lived there since the summer after graduation.

[Juice]

Two things:

1) Having a diffused fanbase that travels well, though commendable, is not the same thing as garnering national interest in your program. "Garnering national interest" means gaining the notice of the average sports fan or, at minimum, the average college basketball fan, not alumni that happened to live somewhere else after graduation. Butler doesn't achieve that beyond a minor recognition of something they accomplished a few years ago; minor recognition does not equate to eyes on a television screen. Butler still registers piss-poor ratings, like Xavier. In a competition of piss-poor ratings, Butler would probably win over Xavier due to the recent national title appearances, but no one really would care about that competition outside the more hardcore members our fanbases. Ratings-wise, we're well behind multiple programs in our own conference, without even mentioning members of other power conferences, so it's like racing to not come in last place in a track meet.

2) "...but I'd say that has almost as much to say about the lack of local entertainment options as anything." This is such an ignorant statement, and I'm not even from Cincinnati, nor have I lived there since the summer after graduation.

I did enjoy that part. He acts like Indy is some booming metropolis compared to Cincinnati. Most people I know compare Indianapolis to mayonnaise because it is boring and white.

[Masterofreality]

Just FYI, the Butler game at Georgetown had a larger attendance than the Xavier game this past season.

Was it on a weekend?

[SpectorJersey]

This is such a dumb argument.

People that follow college basketball know both programs are solid. If you ask the average fan who fills out a bracket about both programs I assume their answer is something like this

Xavier: good basketball program, they usually are in the tournament
Butler: had some great runs to the championship, the coach went to the NBA

The pissing contest about who is more relevant nationally is dumb bc neither program really is relevant on a national level. Outside of the blue bloods or big state schools, no program really is. The average fan outside of this region probably doesn't even know both teams are in the big east but know they name bc they "picked them in their bracket" in the past.

The networks and national pundits loved Butler bc of Stevens. He is gone, that ride is over. Now they went back to loving Mark Few for their small conference darling. Also, Wichita state has a good run going but if their coach leaves they media will go back to not caring about them

[DC Muskie]

Was it on a weekend?

Yes.

[DC Muskie]

This is such a dumb argument.

Yes.

[XUFan09]

I did enjoy that part. He acts like Indy is some booming metropolis compared to Cincinnati. Most people I know compare Indianapolis to mayonnaise because it is boring and white.
That's my immediate reaction about Indy too. To be fair, they do have some cool stuff going on in that city, but apparently the average resident who would be on a college message board (read: white, middle-class) lives out on the outer ring of suburbs and isn't really aware of these things.

[PMI]

The Butler game tipped off just two hours later than the Xavier game and was on CBS. You stated that GTown didn't view Butler as a big game. Well CBS thought it was bigger and an extra 1,100 people did as well. Just pointing out facts, I don't disagree with your premise.

You live in DC, so I'm guessing you know some Georgetown fans. If you think the relatively small 1,100 person difference had much to do with anything other than how Georgetown themselves were playing (and the early start time to an extent too), you're kidding yourself. They were in a real rut entering the Xavier game and it was at an odd 11am start time due to there being a Wizards game later that night. 11am for a school that plays its games way off campus. They had recently beaten Michigan State and were on a roll when they hosted a Butler team that was already struggling pretty badly. Georgetown games have more fans show up when they are playing well, unsurprisingly. A game on a Saturday afternoon that is nationally televised is going to punch some tickets. I'm sure when that game was scheduled for CBS, the network thought the game would have more cachet than it did, but things changed for Butler when Stevens left. To suggest that there's a correlation to Butler's national prestige (when they were shitty at that point) is ludicrous, even though I know you weren't the one suggesting that. I know a lot of Georgetown fans, and they don't consider Butler one of their big games, it's really just that simple. If Butler were really good, it would be a big game, and that applies to the everyone in the league.


I don't expect you to get the strange dynamics of local and national interest that butler has with our limited alumni that happens to be spread all over the country, and the interest its generated across the country because of back to back national championship appearances less than 5 years ago, but its there. Don't feel alone, some of our own fans can't seem to grasp it either.

The struggles we have selling our Hinkle on a regular basis defies logic, but its real. As do the great crowds we bring to tournaments in Maui, Bahamas, Alaska, etc. I've seen where the fact that we are supposedly a good traveling fan base for tournaments helps our cause...

Xavier has done a good job leveraging local fans to putting on a good crowd, but I'd say that has almost as much to say about the lack of local entertainment options as anything. Your success and newer stadium obviously help as well; as does I'm sure your graduate level programs - bringing more into the Xavier "alumni" category.

I'm no expert in this by any means, but I think I understand Butler's situation pretty well, where I am guessing much of your opinions lie in bias due to being an Xavier fan. It would be fair to say the same about me, but I don't think its clouding my observations over the past 15+ years going to home games and traveling to many road games and observing with interest in our struggles of filling Hinkle on a regular basis. Which, relatively speaking to the rest of D1, is not as bad as you like to paint; even if it falls short of even my own expectations.

I'm not sure what kind of bias I would have against one of our league mates having a big time national perception. I wish there were some truth to that for Butler and the rest of the teams in the Big East, other than the few big time names. But there is not. This is not a measuring contest between Xavier and Butler here, I'm just disagreeing with your notion that Butler is nationally perceived the way you think they are. The national perception of Butler is primarily that they were the ultimate underdog Cinderella story. That is a nice thing to have, but it's still got the undertone that contradicts any notion of them being one of the big boys. And it's not like Butler fights that notion. They seem very content in embracing that role, which is totally fine, but it's definitely in contrast to your theory.

Personally, I find that people are almost always surprised when I tell them how small a school Xavier is, because they know about us through basketball. I'm pretty sure that doesn't mean they think of us as some huge national power, but they know that we are a strong basketball program. I'm sure plenty of people know Butler as the school that had success in basketball too. But there's a large gap between what Butler is (perception-wise or otherwise) and what almost every other one of the schools in that Nike tournament are. Butler is not a huge brand like those other schools. I won't argue with you over how they are viewed and treated locally in Indy, but I think you definitely have a biased view of their national perception.

[DC Muskie]

Gtown fans don't think anyone besides Cuse, UConn and Duke are big games.

I also don't think we will be seeing Butler on CBS anytime soon. But to get a game on CBS for whatever reason, says that nationally people would tune in. Also, I doubt 11,000 or 13,000 people were actually sitting in their seats for either game.

But whatever Butler needs to figure out its coaching situation by 2017.

[xudash]

Xavier played Duke on a Sunday afternoon CBS game a number of years ago in the NYC area - a game Duke always scheduled with a major program for the benefit of its northern alumni, I presume.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Xavier played Duke on a Sunday afternoon CBS game a number of years ago in the NYC area - a game Duke always scheduled with a major program for the benefit of its northern alumni, I presume.

I was there and it was miserable. We got blown out.

[xu82]

Xavier played Duke on a Sunday afternoon CBS game a number of years ago in the NYC area - a game Duke always scheduled with a major program for the benefit of its northern alumni, I presume.
I remember that game. I was just glad to get the shot at them. It seemed like we were on the Duke North campus based on fans, refs and outcome. They do it regularly and get a good turnout. Has to help with alumni and recruiting.

[xudash]

I was there and it was miserable. We got blown out.

I do remember that.

My point was that we were invited to the party, so to speak.

[hoyahooligan]

The problem is, you don't have any facts that support an argument that Butler somehow garners more "national interest." Exactly how does Butler have national appeal or cachet? Where does this show? Not in recruiting, since Stevens left. Not based on virtually any experience I've had as someone from about as "national" a place as there is. You are just assuming that Butler is a big ticket outside of Indianapolis, and it just isn't true. I can promise you that Georgetown fans did not view the Butler game as one of their big ones to come to town last year. My guess is neither did pretty much anyone else. I'm sure the low level OOC opponents you guys face view Butler as one of their "big games," but that's pretty much the same for most of the other Big East programs too. I would love to see any kind of proof from anyone of this supposed "Butler national interest." I find the whole thing pretty laughable, honestly.

Technically it was a big game. But only because of the timing. It was a Saturday afternoon game that the university designated as their winter basketball weekend sort of like a basketball homecoming event encouraging alumni to come back.

I do think it's possible for a team to have a bigger national following than local following. Especially with small private schools in areas with large public schools. I think Georgetown's brand Nationally is definitely bigger than the local brand that is dominated by the university of Maryland.

[PMI]

Technically it was a big game. But only because of the timing. It was a Saturday afternoon game that the university designated as their winter basketball weekend sort of like a basketball homecoming event encouraging alumni to come back.

I do think it's possible for a team to have a bigger national following than local following. Especially with small private schools in areas with large public schools. I think Georgetown's brand Nationally is definitely bigger than the local brand that is dominated by the university of Maryland.

That completely plays into my point, which is that the timing is the reason the game sold so many seats, not the opponent. Perhaps a better phrase would be, "Georgetown fans did not look at Butler as one of their premiere opponents." You guys didn't, nor should you have. And obviously it's possible for a team to have a bigger national following than local one. I don't think that's deniable, and I agree Georgetown is a good example of that (Duke is probably the best example.) But Butler is not an example of that, based on virtually any proof I've ever seen, and common sense to boot. If you walk into a Lids in a random town, you could almost certainly find a Duke hat and there's a pretty good chance you could find a Georgetown hat. You aren't finding a Butler hat. It's a very simplistic example, but the point is, Butler is not a national brand. The Big East only has a couple/few of them, and I think there are some programs that are sort of on the fringe in that regard. The two tournament runs certainly helped. It put them on the map. But they are still widely viewed as a Cinderella type program, and the huge progress they made towards being perceived more as "big time" was significantly stunted the second Brad Stevens left and Brandon Miller came in. Some programs have the elements (facilities, support, money, tradition, etc.) to be able to more seamlessly transition after such a loss. Butler isn't one of them. If they were as "national" as Nildogg suggests, it would at least somewhat show in their recruiting in the post-Stevens era. It really hasn't, and if they have another down year in the league, I don't see that changing. I do think they're in better shape this year than they were last year though.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I do remember that.

My point was that we were invited to the party, so to speak.

Yeah I loved that we were playing that game just sucked we lost so bad.

[xubrew]

I do remember that.

My point was that we were invited to the party, so to speak.

....and then we were kicked out of the party because CBS cut away from the game. This was back in the day when CBS supplemented it's national coverage, so they switched the entire country with the exception of Cincinnati and Durham over to another game. Please don't ever mention that game again.

[xubrew]

I noticed a few years back that the more this board complained about Gonzaga and all the undue praise they were getting, Gonzaga would almost assuredly go out and win a big game. I wonder if that's also true for Butler. If they beat UNC today, I'll know why. It'll be because people on here felt the need to come up with a laundry list of reasons about how they're really not that good. I'm half expecting it to happen. We joke about how we like to "sneak up on people" and how it's good we're not ranked early. Well, that's literally what Butler seemingly always does, and what kickstarts the whole thing is them doing well in an early season exempt tournament.

....and the other thing that people seem to overlook about Butler, they actually have a really good coach right now.

[GoMuskies]

That Duke game was not one of the better days of my life. We fought through a snowstorm in Connecticut to make it to New Jersey. The four hour Boston to Jersey trip took about 8 hours that day. And then we left the game at halftime. Only time that's ever happened. We had a long drive to get back to Cincinnati, and if Xavier's team didn't want to be there then neither did I.

[xudash]

....and then we were kicked out of the party because CBS cut away from the game. This was back in the day when CBS supplemented it's national coverage, so they switched the entire country with the exception of Cincinnati and Durham over to another game. Please don't ever mention that game again.

Duke game on CBS.

Duke game on CBS.

Duke game on CBS.

Just kidding.

Gents, and ladies, this "shades of gray" argument is pretty silly.

Now that Gonzaga has been brought into it, isn't it obvious that Xavier, Butler and Gonzaga, all by going through their own unique paths, have AT LEAST achieved reputations that involve these programs being treated as Major programs? Prior to joining the Big East, X and Gonzaga spent time in the national media as Major programs operating within mid-major conferences. Butler certainly joined that conversation after its two runs, even though it already had achieved some sustained success prior to those runs.

National reputations for any of these programs? No, not like the blueblood programs. National reputations in the media when they're discussed? Yes, most of the time anyway. How about with basketball junkies throughout the land? All three known and respected for their resumes. Casual fans? No, not so much.

Shades of gray.

Decisions regarding one tournament brought all this on. A question is this: would you trade your Xavier PROGRAM for another one, particularly one outside of the Power 5?

No way is my answer.

[PMI]

I noticed a few years back that the more this board complained about Gonzaga and all the undue praise they were getting, Gonzaga would almost assuredly go out and win a big game. I wonder if that's also true for Butler. If they beat UNC today, I'll know why. It'll be because people on here felt the need to come up with a laundry list of reasons about how they're really not that good. I'm half expecting it to happen. We joke about how we like to "sneak up on people" and how it's good we're not ranked early. Well, that's literally what Butler seemingly always does, and what kickstarts the whole thing is them doing well in an early season exempt tournament.

....and the other thing that people seem to overlook about Butler, they actually have a really good coach right now.

If Butler knocks off the #5 team today, I will gladly take credit for it. If my "knocking" (read taking an honest look at) Butler leads to them winning big OOC games, then everybody wins. Like I said in another thread, you can never totally count Cinderella out in these games. I'll be pulling for it.

[xubrew]

If Butler knocks off the #5 team today, I will gladly take credit for it. If my "knocking" (read taking an honest look at) Butler leads to them winning big OOC games, then everybody wins. Like I said in another thread, you can never totally count Cinderella out in these games. I'll be pulling for it.

PMI, it was a tongue in cheek comment. It just seemed that every time we'd fire up the Gonzaga hate on this board, within 48 hours something both very big and very nationally conspicuous would happen in their favor.

That being said, Butler appears to have a good game plan. They're missing a lot of shots they should be making, but are still in it (albeit early). I don't like Butler's fans, but I think Barry Collier is really good, I liked Todd Lickliter, I liked Brad Stevens, and....I really like Chris Holtmann. I liked him when he was at Garner Webb and still don't know why he left to be an assistant coach at Butler. Only, now he's a head coach at Butler. That's why I'm always quick to point out that Butler may have some issues, but their current coaching situation isn't one of them.

[Emp]

Xavier played Duke on a Sunday afternoon CBS game a number of years ago in the NYC area - a game Duke always scheduled with a major program for the benefit of its northern alumni, I presume.
That was an early Saturday game, at the Izod Center. I was there as well. painful. Plus it took quite awhile to get to the NJ site on the train. I admit I left before the end and consoled myself with the pleasures of Manhattan.

[X-band '01]

That was an early Saturday game, at the Izod Center. I was there as well. painful. Plus it took quite awhile to get to the NJ site on the train. I admit I left before the end and consoled myself with the pleasures of Manhattan.

If you remember Verne Lundquist during that game, "Mom and Dad, at least we got to see Secaucus."

[x_man11]

Butler up 7 with under 3 to go. Damn!

[xukeith]

Who would have said a less physical and less talented team out rebound UNC by 17 boards. Go Big East! 3-4 teams ranked in Top 25 by January 1

[xubrew]

Who would have said a less physical and less talented team out rebound UNC by 17 boards. Go Big East! 3-4 teams ranked in Top 25 by January 1

We might have three by December 1st.

[BMoreX]

We might have three by December 1st.

Yup. Nova will go up a few, Butler because of their win, and then likely Creighton/Providence.

Now, I don't really see the latter two staying there for a while, but any BE team in the top 25 (for however long) is a good thing.

[Xavier]

Now, I'd be surprised if Georgetown beats #2 Wisconsin today. Having said that keeping it close could push them in the top 25-30 after beating #18 Florida last night.

[waggy]

Maybe Josh Smith can land a couple elbows to the chins of the Wisky bigs.

[bleedXblue]

Now, I'd be surprised if Georgetown beats #2 Wisconsin today. Having said that keeping it close could push them in the top 25-30 after beating #18 Florida last night.

Based on how Georgetown played yesterday, I expect Wisconsin to win by at least 15. They are better coached, much more disciplined and right now are clearly a better team.

[scoscox]

Man, this was a fun thread. Probably the most spirited debate I've seen on here in awhile and I'd like to say a few things past the fat because I can't stand Butler mostly and I resent the perceptions of their current fans and some of the national attitudes toward the Muskies. First, the arguments about excuses about attendance were pretty weak. If people cared, they'd go. It's pretty simple. Obviously, they don't. Butler's story in the new century though has been pretty remarkable. They've practically doubled their number of ncaa tournament appearances. They somehow got to the national championship game not once but twice on the back of mediocre talent in a couple incredibly weak draws brought about by a litany of crazy upsets. Butler has taken a similar program trajectory as Xavier has, but in a more concentrated time frame brought on by some excellent coaching, but I think generally the support for the program is a little better at Xavier and you'll see that play out. Generally, I don't understand how they've won so many games in recent years though. I mean the talent that they've had has been soo bad it's really remarkable what they've been able to do. This all being said, if you can't recognize that Xavier's had a much longer run of sustained success you're just not dealing with reality. Just as a program we've been to the NCAA tournament 26 times to their 13. Lickliter and Stevens made that program. It was then mentioned that Georgetown only considers a handful of teams to be big games. This isn't your father's Georgetown anymore. They better start broadening their view or they will continue their decline. Xavier's been on par with or better than Georgetown for the past 15 or 20 years. That's not to say that they've necessarily dropped out of the status of great programs, but a recognition that, from most objective measures and standpoints, Xavier has accomplished more in that time frame than all but a very select few. If the casual frontrunner fans of many programs considered to be power programs took more than a passing glance at statistics I think they'd be pretty surprised just how good Xavier's been and how, more than likely, they've been better than the team whose hat they where when they go to the mall. Xavier just gets remarkably little press coverage at any point. I'm convinced we could go undefeated and get to the national championship and the next year we'd come in unranked and forgotten. I mean it is crazy how surprised people are every year when Xavier gets ranked/wins the conference/makes a tourney run. And it's been happening for the past 25 years annually.

[scoscox]

As an example, even when other teams come out of nowhere and have runs similar to Xavier (VCU, George Mason, Wichita State, Butler), they get lots of coverage as cinderella teams and parlay it into years of exposure, but that same coverage is never afforded to Xavier. People just don't talk about us. In 2004, Xavier should've been the talk of that tournament. Only one team that was seeded lower had ever made it to the final four and Xavier was two points away, but it was like the fact that we had run through the entire region hadn't happened. It's just crazy. I kind of like that were not treated as a cinderella or anything, but it's almost eery how little is said about Xavier annually.

[scoscox]

Lastly, this tournament would've been tight. Does anybody really want Portland using a spot? Get the Muskies in there!

[Drew]

As an example, even when other teams come out of nowhere and have runs similar to Xavier (VCU, George Mason, Wichita State, Butler), they get lots of coverage as cinderella teams and parlay it into years of exposure, but that same coverage is never afforded to Xavier. People just don't talk about us. In 2004, Xavier should've been the talk of that tournament. Only one team that was seeded lower had ever made it to the final four and Xavier was two points away, but it was like the fact that we had run through the entire region hadn't happened. It's just crazy. I kind of like that were not treated as a cinderella or anything, but it's almost eery how little is said about Xavier annually.

Not sure I agree. Xavier's reputation is "always very good" which we always are. I honestly don't think people consider VCU, Butler, Withita St. or Butler as good as X. You have to respect their amazing accomplishments. Mason's unbelievable run. VCU's run plus following seasons with Shaka playing Duke etc. Witchita St.'s undefeated run and Butler with consecutive Final appearances. Each of those stand out more a single Xavier accomplishment and are easy to talk about. But people still recognize X as the stronger program overall.

[XMuskieFTW]

So do we have a tournament lined up for 2017 yet?

[scoscox]

I don't think so. This tournament would've been awesome. Still gonna be sick regardless, but would've been sweet to have the Muskies get a shot at all those teams.

[xubrew]

I find it kinda funny that as recently as the beginning of last season so many people were still thinking that Butler's program was doomed to irrelevance for the foreseeable future. There are programs that people always seem to think will be good, but never are. For a decade and a half, Butler was a program that no one ever thought would be good, but always was.

[xukeith]

Eyeballs?

Villanova hasn't been representing well in the league. Best team was Georgetown 7-8 years ago or Creighton 2 years ago.