UC the standard for sleaze

[JTG]

Listening to Dan Dakich radio show today. .He said 2 different times, "Crean is turning IU into Cincinnati under Huggins. What with drugs and alcohol and arrests". When you think trouble you think Cincinnati.

[sirthought]

Dakich needs to think back on his own teams a bit more.

These people are college kids. They do dumb stuff. Some more than others. Some get caught.

[xubrew]

Listening to Dan Dakich radio show today. .He said 2 different times, "Crean is turning IU into Cincinnati under Huggins. What with drugs and alcohol and arrests". When you think trouble you think Cincinnati.

That's not true. When Cincinnati was under Huggins, they won.

EDIT: I hate Crean more than Huggins. It's not even close, actually. Crean is an idiot. IU's problem is that they're letting selfish morons make decisions, and then can't figure out why so many things are going wrong. At least Huggins was/is intelligent.

[JTG]

That's not true. When Cincinnati was under Huggins, they won.

EDIT: I hate Crean more than Huggins. It's not even close, actually. Crean is an idiot. IU's problem is that they're letting selfish morons make decisions, and then can't figure out why so many things are going wrong. At least Huggins was/is intelligent.

So winning makes it ok?

[xubrew]

So winning makes it ok?

I never said that. I just said they weren't the same. Cincinnati won under Huggins, which is different than IU who is losing under Crean.

If Crean were having all these problems and winning, then they'd be Cincinnati.

[chico]

I'm sorry, nobody's worse than BeelzeBob. Crean's a prick. Huggins was evil - pure, unadulterated (despite the fact that adultery was part of his repertoire) evil.

[casualfan]

This would be so much better if it was anyone other than Dakich. That guy is a squid.

[drudy23]

So winning makes it ok?

Actually, and sadly, yes. Just the way it is.

[Lamont Sanford]

UC fans (and their administration) blindly turned their eyes from BeelzeBob as long as he was winning.

[Xavier]

So winning makes it ok?

If Xavier had the similar problems this summer and went on to win the National Championship, would you take that? I would. I think it would be split among Xavier fans who would take that and those who wouldn't.

[JTG]

If Xavier had the similar problems this summer and went on to win the National Championship, would you take that? I would. I think it would be split among Xavier fans who would take that and those who wouldn't.

Actually, what has happened at IU is not a HUGE deal. Yeah, it's a black mark, but most IU fans are holier than thou about bball. They act like these kids are axe murderers. If we won a Natl. Title, I would squirm some, but I'd take it. I would be embarrassed a little. The problem at IU is Crean is not Knight, and nobody ever will be. But Knight turned into a bigger ass the last 5 or 6 years he was at IU. Actually he was always an ass, but he mostly won. Him being an ass wasn't tolerated once he started losing. But, it was him, not his players. The players mostly towed the line and kept their noses clean.

[xu2013]

Why are we crucifying IU for having players who are doing things that many college students do and also get caught doing? There are many reasons to dislike Crean, the "trouble" his players are getting into right now is not one of those reasons.

[GoMuskies]

If Xavier had the similar problems this summer and went on to win the National Championship, would you take that? I would. I think it would be split among Xavier fans who would take that and those who wouldn't.

IU's problems? I'd be just fine. Huggy Bear type problems? Hell no.

[Kahns Krazy]

Huggins had an exceptional run of beyond run-of-the-mill college kid problems. Guys beating their girlfriends with flower pots, tying up their roommates and burning them with heated coat hangers, punching horses, trashing their grandma's trailer, throwing basketballs into the stands at fans... that was all on top of the regular weed and drinking college stupid stuff.

[PMI]

You guys do realize we are not that far removed from a period when Xavier was at its winningest point in program history with several guys who would not exactly be described as perfect angels, correct? Perhaps it's best for some fans to not know much about what's going on behind the scenes, but I'm not sure the line should be drawn below what's going on at Indiana. People do love their horses to stand quite high though.

[bleedXblue]

Why are we crucifying IU for having players who are doing things that many college students do and also get caught doing? There are many reasons to dislike Crean, the "trouble" his players are getting into right now is not one of those reasons.

WOW is all I can say.

Drug suspensions and kids getting run over by cars is not ok.

[Masterofreality]

Huggins had an exceptional run of beyond run-of-the-mill college kid problems. Guys beating their girlfriends with flower pots, tying up their roommates and burning them with heated coat hangers, punching horses, trashing their grandma's trailer, throwing basketballs into the stands at fans... that was all on top of the regular weed and drinking college stupid stuff.

"Bob Huggins Has No Integrity!"

One of the great phrases ever constructed by mankind.

[casualfan]

You guys do realize we are not that far removed from a period when Xavier was at its winningest point in program history with several guys who would not exactly be described as perfect angels, correct? Perhaps it's best for some fans to not know much about what's going on behind the scenes, but I'm not sure the line should be drawn below what's going on at Indiana. People do love their horses to stand quite high though.

Preach it, brother.

[LadyMuskie]

Honestly, if we went on to win the National Championship after a summer of arrests and other legal problems like a player kidnapping his roommate and burning him with a wire-hanger, I'd be embarrassed and would think that we (Xavier fans) totally deserve whatever we get from UC fans. UC was a hot mess under Huggins and we all took full advantage of that at every turn. They deserved it. We would deserve it in return.

That said, I think there's a HUGE difference between what IU is facing and what UC went through. Crean's an ass and clearly has problems controlling his players, but he's nowhere near Huggins' level of public indecency. Huggins was, and forever will be, the pinnacle of all that is wrong with "winning at any cost". But, he made it fun. It hasn't been the same since he stumbled out of his car and vomited on the police. Cronin is just an awful human being with no redeeming qualities.

[bleedXblue]

Preach it, brother.

And I for one wonder if it was all really worth it. I think it was great while we were winning, but in the long run came back to bite us.

[GoMuskies]

You guys do realize we are not that far removed from a period when Xavier was at its winningest point in program history with several guys who would not exactly be described as perfect angels, correct? Perhaps it's best for some fans to not know much about what's going on behind the scenes, but I'm not sure the line should be drawn below what's going on at Indiana. People do love their horses to stand quite high though.

On the plus side, those guys DID all manage to avoid running over one another with a car. At least as far as I know.

[LadyMuskie]

And I for one wonder if it was all really worth it. I think it was great while we were winning, but in the long run came back to bite us.

How so?

[XUGRAD80]

"people that live in glass houses........."

[GoMuskies]

"people that live in glass houses........."

Should really move

[BandAid]

"people that live in glass houses........."

end up finding themselves on voyeur websites?

[xudash]

"people that live in glass houses........."

Better have good taste in window treatments.

[xudash]

How so?

And how bad was it?

The Gangsta b/s? A highly emotional game that blew through the roof with poor adult management afterwards (i.e. hey, come along, let's head over to the press room).

The string of senior graduations has kept rolling along.

Yes, I'm sure that behind the scenes and in a few dark corners some of our kids have had their collegiate-years experiences, but they aren't punching horses and beating the snot out of others.

[xu82]

"people that live in glass houses........."

Must have horrible utility bills.

(Ever the pragmatist.)

[GreatWhiteNorth]

"people that live in glass houses........."

....should get thick, thick curtains...

[bobbiemcgee]

buy stock in Windex.

[xubrew]

"people that live in glass houses........."

Shouldn't worry about throwing rocks at Tom Crean. He'd try to throw them back, but he'd miss.

[Xavier]

And how bad was it?

The Gangsta b/s? A highly emotional game that blew through the roof with poor adult management afterwards (i.e. hey, come along, let's head over to the press room).

The string of senior graduations has kept rolling along.

Yes, I'm sure that behind the scenes and in a few dark corners some of our kids have had their collegiate-years experiences, but they aren't punching horses and beating the snot out of others.

I am not sure what time period he is talking about, but more than likely that time period is a big reason Xavier got invited to the Big East. (Is he starting with C.J. Anderson/DL and the elite 8 run?)

[X-band '01]

"people that live in glass houses........."

Can't defeat Glass Joe in Punch-Out.

[xu82]

Glass houses could have it's own thread... it's hard NOT to respond to.

[LadyMuskie]

I am not sure what time period he is talking about, but more than likely that time period is a big reason Xavier got invited to the Big East. (Is he starting with C.J. Anderson/DL and the elite 8 run?)

No one knows because his statement makes no sense. None.

[dnnrobert]

Huggins has been gone for 9 years, but this reputation is hard to break. As a UC fan, I am glad Huggins was dismissed (although it could have been handled way better). Also, I am proud that Cronin runs a clean program. He immediately brought up our APR, there have been very few off-court incidents, and with one or two exceptions, I think he has recruited quality young men.

[paulxu]

Cronin's problem (one of) is that instead of understanding it was actually his players who did the sucker punching and head stomping, it was the XU cheering sections' fault, and the games shouldn't be on campus anymore. WATB and an idiot.

[xubrew]

Huggins has been gone for 9 years, but this reputation is hard to break. As a UC fan, I am glad Huggins was dismissed (although it could have been handled way better). Also, I am proud that Cronin runs a clean program. He immediately brought up our APR, there have been very few off-court incidents, and with one or two exceptions, I think he has recruited quality young men.

It would have been very difficult to handle it any worse.

[bleedXblue]

How so?



IMHO we got away from what made Xavier such a strong program. We brought guys in that were more interested in playing for themselves than for the team. I'm not going to name players, but we all know who they are. The last two years have been unlike the Xavier basketball I've watched the last 10-15 years. I think Mack has learned some lessons and grown as a coach. Help me understand what doesn't make sense. Thanks.

[Xavier]

Why don't you just name the players and why you think the program would be better off had they never played at X. Tu? Mark? Crawford? Just name the players and what they did off the court that put that pit the program in the position it's in (The Big East) I understand you're being ambiguous on purpose because it helps your weak argument.

[bleedXblue]

Why don't you just name the players and why you think the program would be better off had they never played at X. Tu? Mark? Crawford? Just name the players and what they did off the court that put that pit the program in the position it's in (The Big East) I understand you're being ambiguous on purpose because it helps your weak argument.

If you can't figure out who I'm talking about, that's your issue. You don't have to like my opinion and I never talked about off the court issues.......did I?

[Xavier]

If you can't figure out who I'm talking about, that's your issue. You don't have to like my opinion and I never talked about off the court issues.......did I?

PMI said Xavier didn't have the nicest guys and it might be best for some fans to not know what went on behind the scenes (off the court). You quoted someone saying "preach it". I just assumed you were wondering if the off the court issues were worth the success.... Why else would you quote two guys talking about Xavier players off the court when bringing up that point?

So, yeah, off the court issues is exactly what your were talking about. That's what the whole thread is about.

[bleedXblue]

PMI said Xavier didn't have the nicest guys and it might be best for some fans to not know what went on behind the scenes (off the court). You quoted someone saying "preach it". I just assumed you were wondering if the off the court issues were worth the success.... Why else would you quote two guys talking about Xavier players off the court when bringing up that point?

So, yeah, off the court issues is exactly what your were talking about. That's what the whole thread is about.

I was going in a bit of a different direction. My point is we brought in guys that helped us win in the short term, but they also created team and locker room issues that eventually caught up with us. That's my opinion. It was all within the context of someone's post about winning with players who were not exactly on the straight and narrow.

[Masterofreality]

Well, there were no crimes committed.....

I'll stop there.

[casualfan]

Well, there were no crimes committed.....

I'll stop there.

I'm not sure committed is the word you're looking for.

[GoMuskies]

Jordan Crawford was just borrowing that stuff from the store. Yeah, that's it. Just like Winston really MEANT to pay for those crab legs.

[Masterofreality]

Jordan Crawford was just borrowing that stuff from the store. Yeah, that's it. Just like Winston really MEANT to pay for those crab legs.

I don't think that I ever heard this. What?

[BandAid]

Ya, our guys our smart. Lavender waited until (what, one weekend?) after his last game to get caught with weed.

Look, the things going on at IU happen in every D1 athletic department. Most kids drink underage and/or smoke pot at college - even the athletes. The car accident (which is rare and freak), the fact they failed more than one drug test, and those things happening at the same time are why IU has become a story.

Shoot, Mitch McGary entered the NBA draft because he failed a drug test. I'm sure someone on their team drinks underage. No one is screaming about lack of institutional control at Michigan.

Marijuana and alcohol are small potatoes in the modern college culture.

UC under Huggins is a horse of a different color.

[Kahns Krazy]

Huggins has been gone for 9 years, but this reputation is hard to break. As a UC fan, I am glad Huggins was dismissed (although it could have been handled way better). Also, I am proud that Cronin runs a clean program. He immediately brought up our APR, there have been very few off-court incidents, and with one or two exceptions, I think he has recruited quality young men.


It would have been very difficult to handle it any worse.

You know Huggins quit, right? He had two years left on his contract, and he stopped coming to work. I agree that it would have been difficult for him to have handled it more poorly.

[PMI]

I was going in a bit of a different direction. My point is we brought in guys that helped us win in the short term, but they also created team and locker room issues that eventually caught up with us. That's my opinion. It was all within the context of someone's post about winning with players who were not exactly on the straight and narrow.

I think there is probably some truth to your opinion, but I don't think it's necessarily to the extent that you suggest. Just thinking out loud, Sean Miller had a rough first couple of years with mostly players he inherited. His point guard and him hated each other and that caused a lot of issues on the court before he eventually kicked him off the team. We really were lacking at that position those two years and it hurt. Drew Lavender was a perfect solution for our team in that regard, and it changed everything we were able to do. CJ Anderson brought a toughness and attitude that may have made (or in hindsight makes) some people uncomfortable, but I loved it and I think it's exactly what the program needed after many years of talented Xavier teams folding against teams with recognizable names on the fronts of their jerseys. Miller continued to bring in guys with an edge, which was perfectly fine to me because they were really talented, and the support system around the program still made sure they graduated. Moreover, Miller had already hit his stride as a coach and program leader at this point, and was not in over his head with these kinds of personalities. He had it under control and we had the right balance of toughness/edginess and discipline for the most part.

When Chris Mack came in, he inherited several of those players, and went from the assistant coach (who is always more of the player's coach than true disciplinarian) to the main man. The players he inherited were initially very, very unhappy about Miller's departure and I believe there was a period of time where Mack had a very tough job in earning the trust of his inherited players and establishing true control. I think he did a very good job of this, all things considered, but it's hard to argue that he possibly could've kept everything as smooth as it would have been under Miller in those early times, as that's just the natural effects of that transition. We all know what transpired between the UC fight and the Dez Wells expulsion, and I won't get into any opinions on that, but let's just agree that that brought some difficulties to the program. I do think we had a player or two who Mack inherited and who made his life more difficult than it had to be, and I also think that Miller would've had an easier time diffusing that given what he had already established and the other factors I mentioned.

That's all completely reasonable in my mind and I can see where it may have rubbed certain fans the wrong way. But the bottom line is that we were winning during that time, with those players and Chris Mack, and in college basketball, that is absolutely huge. It's easy to say that it only helped us in the short term because it came at some kind of a cost, but had Mack inherited bad players who were choir boys, and lost, I have no doubt whatsoever that our program would be in a much, much worse place right now. Mack has all his own guys now, and I have no reason to believe anything that may have caused tension for him on past teams has any effect on the program today. What does have a positive effect is the on court success that those teams had in Mack's early tenure, and the recruiting success that has been achieved in large part due to that. I think Chris Mack has the program in a very good position to succeed now, and it succeeded then, so it's hard for me to have any regrets about the players we've had. We could argue that our rebuilding phase may have been more significant than it could've been due to certain players or tensions (who knows-- it's impossible to really measure) but we won then and we will win now, and I believe the state of the program is in very good shape.

[GoMuskies]

I don't think that I ever heard this. What?

Crawford was caught stealing a cellphone at Kenwood Mall during his redshirt year. Not a huge deal, but not exactly good behavior either.

[xubrew]

You know Huggins quit, right? He had two years left on his contract, and he stopped coming to work. I agree that it would have been difficult for him to have handled it more poorly.

My understanding of what happened is so unlike what you're saying it's as though we're talking about two completely different things. Huggins's contract was basically a four year deal where he was given a one year extension every year, and had a $3 million dollar buyout.

Huggins got a DUI in the Summer of 2004, and was severely reprimanded by the president, but not fired. They didn't like each other to begin with, and that didn't help. He coached the following season, finished in the rankings, and made the round of 32.

Then, in late August, literally six weeks before the start of practice, his contract was terminated without cause. The DUI was mentioned, but it was over a year after the fact.

Because Huggins was terminated without cause over a year later, he was paid $3 million dollars. To not work. On top of that, since he was out of coaching and had every intention of getting back in, he had no restrictions when it came to recruiting and contacts with recruits. And, he took complete advantage of that.

So, rather than getting rid of him right away and not having to pay him anything and having a reasonable amount of time to find another coach, they waited over a year fired him at a time when finding another coach was impossible, and had to pay him $3 million. They lost all their recruiting, and proceeded to suck for the next four years.

I know of no other examples where someone benefited so much from a DUI.

[muskiefan82]

I know of no other examples where someone benefited so much from a DUI.

There's a gnome who ended up benefiting from this as well.

[blobfan]

Ya, our guys our smart. Lavender waited until (what, one weekend?) after his last game to get caught with weed.

Look, the things going on at IU happen in every D1 athletic department. Most kids drink underage and/or smoke pot at college - even the athletes. The car accident (which is rare and freak), the fact they failed more than one drug test, and those things happening at the same time are why IU has become a story.

Shoot, Mitch McGary entered the NBA draft because he failed a drug test. I'm sure someone on their team drinks underage. No one is screaming about lack of institutional control at Michigan.

Marijuana and alcohol are small potatoes in the modern college culture.

UC under Huggins is a horse of a different color.

And that color is black-and-blue.

[BandAid]

And that color is black-and-blue.

reps (http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/000/681/what-you-did-there-i-see-it.thumbnail.jpg)

[Cheesehead]

I thought this thread was about Huggins being turd?

[xudash]

I think there is probably some truth to your opinion, but I don't think it's necessarily to the extent that you suggest. Just thinking out loud, Sean Miller had a rough first couple of years with mostly players he inherited. His point guard and him hated each other and that caused a lot of issues on the court before he eventually kicked him off the team. We really were lacking at that position those two years and it hurt. Drew Lavender was a perfect solution for our team in that regard, and it changed everything we were able to do. CJ Anderson brought a toughness and attitude that may have made (or in hindsight makes) some people uncomfortable, but I loved it and I think it's exactly what the program needed after many years of talented Xavier teams folding against teams with recognizable names on the fronts of their jerseys. Miller continued to bring in guys with an edge, which was perfectly fine to me because they were really talented, and the support system around the program still made sure they graduated. Moreover, Miller had already hit his stride as a coach and program leader at this point, and was not in over his head with these kinds of personalities. He had it under control and we had the right balance of toughness/edginess and discipline for the most part.

When Chris Mack came in, he inherited several of those players, and went from the assistant coach (who is always more of the player's coach than true disciplinarian) to the main man. The players he inherited were initially very, very unhappy about Miller's departure and I believe there was a period of time where Mack had a very tough job in earning the trust of his inherited players and establishing true control. I think he did a very good job of this, all things considered, but it's hard to argue that he possibly could've kept everything as smooth as it would have been under Miller in those early times, as that's just the natural effects of that transition. We all know what transpired between the UC fight and the Dez Wells expulsion, and I won't get into any opinions on that, but let's just agree that that brought some difficulties to the program. I do think we had a player or two who Mack inherited and who made his life more difficult than it had to be, and I also think that Miller would've had an easier time diffusing that given what he had already established and the other factors I mentioned.

That's all completely reasonable in my mind and I can see where it may have rubbed certain fans the wrong way. But the bottom line is that we were winning during that time, with those players and Chris Mack, and in college basketball, that is absolutely huge. It's easy to say that it only helped us in the short term because it came at some kind of a cost, but had Mack inherited bad players who were choir boys, and lost, I have no doubt whatsoever that our program would be in a much, much worse place right now. Mack has all his own guys now, and I have no reason to believe anything that may have caused tension for him on past teams has any effect on the program today. What does have a positive effect is the on court success that those teams had in Mack's early tenure, and the recruiting success that has been achieved in large part due to that. I think Chris Mack has the program in a very good position to succeed now, and it succeeded then, so it's hard for me to have any regrets about the players we've had. We could argue that our rebuilding phase may have been more significant than it could've been due to certain players or tensions (who knows-- it's impossible to really measure) but we won then and we will win now, and I believe the state of the program is in very good shape.

This truly is one of the finest pieces of perspective/analysis I've read on this board. Very well done.

[Masterofreality]

Crawford was caught stealing a cellphone at Kenwood Mall during his redshirt year. Not a huge deal, but not exactly good behavior either.

Thanks.

So Stoooooooooooopid.

That would be "committing a crime".

[xukeith]

I agree. Sad but true. Winning blinds fans(fanatics) and school leadership. Graham said XU's #1 luring with PR and increased enrollment($$) is basketball.