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PM Thor
11-12-2013, 01:25 PM
Are you for or against the Cincinnati streetcar project.

Keep in mind, the Parking deal with the Port Authority is dead, and they will not be following up with any type of litigation in that matter.

Milhouse
11-12-2013, 01:36 PM
Yay.

I'm young and can see myself getting a ton of use out of it for the next 10+ years until I move deep into suburbia.

GuyFawkes38
11-12-2013, 01:52 PM
Yes. Streetcars and limited stop bus lines ("rapid routs") are the future.

Juice
11-12-2013, 01:56 PM
In theory the street car is great, but how the hell is going to get paid for? It's already going over the estimates.

Muskie
11-12-2013, 03:05 PM
Can I see mock-ups of these "Streetcars"? If they don't look like Trolleys, I vote no.

sirthought
11-12-2013, 03:13 PM
In theory the street car is great, but how the hell is going to get paid for? It's already going over the estimates.

It's currently on time and on budget.

nuts4xu
11-12-2013, 03:14 PM
Can I see mock-ups of these "Streetcars"? If they don't look like Trolleys, I vote no.

http://cdn.urbancincy.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Cincinnati-Streetcar_Main-Street.png

nuts4xu
11-12-2013, 03:15 PM
http://cdn.urbancincy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Cincinnati-Streetcar-Rolling-Stock1.jpg

Kahns Krazy
11-12-2013, 05:09 PM
I support the idea. I've said before I'm not thrilled with how the finance part of it has been handled so far in Cincinnati, but for a vastly different reason than I think most people are against it. The money isn't a problem. Even if it runs to $200 million, you're talking about $7 million a year over 30 years. The annual capital budget runs around $300 million. A 2% investment in the core of your city is not out of line. I would very much like to see some private partnerships get involved to both manage costs and drive development. If nobody involved in the project stands to make money by driving costs down, nobody is going to work to drive costs down. That's why the fountain square redevelopment worked. We gave tax dollars to groups and said get this project done and make it profitable and you can keep most of the profits. I don't think anyone would argue today that the fountain square renovation was anything but a resounding success.

The most serious long term problem Cincinnati has is population erosion. Population flight is a self perpetuating cycle. People leave, businesses can't be supported by the smaller population, less business services means more people leave. Lower tax base hurts the ability to pay for public safety. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Cincinnati also has a number of people and groups that want to invest in neighborhoods. Our new Mayor spent a lot of other people's money trying to revitalize Price Hill. The Bortz family has had some considerable success in Mt. Adams. Others have tried in Columbia Tusculum, Oakley, East End, Mt. Washington, Northside, and others around the city. None of them have attracted critical mass because none of them have a unique draw. That means two developers will naturally avoid each other's space because they don't want to drive up the prices.

What I believe the streetcar will bring is a reason for all of those investment dollars to go into the same area and create something that Cincinnati doesn't already have. I believe it will draw outside speculation in and drive net investment into the city. I believe the resulting urban residential district will then attract net new people to the city. Importantly, it will draw recent graduates and other young talent to the city that would not consider Cincinnati today.

Cincinnati is a fickle town and investors know it. You could do the same thing with a long term commitment to a wheeled transit plans, but investors won't believe Cincinnati. You could do it with a more favorable investment tax credit structure, but investors won't believe the city's commitment to it. The thing about the streetcar is it is literally set in stone. Wherever those rails are, that's where the streetcar will run for the next 20 years. As an investor, I can afford to take a much longer horizon in my risk analysis, and the property becomes more valuable.

When that investment comes in, and the residents come in, the secondary investment comes in. A grocery store becomes more viable. A 24 hour drug store can be profitable. Enclosed garages are an option.

I don't run as much as I used to, but one of my favorite routes was from the river up past Findlay Market. There is so much potential in that real estate, and I strongly believe that the investment in the streetcar will realize that potential.

The problem right now is that a lot of speculators are holding a lot of that property waiting for the streetcar to be built. If the project is cancelled, they will cut and run, and the whole area takes a hit.

Kahns Krazy
11-12-2013, 05:11 PM
http://cdn.urbancincy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Cincinnati-Streetcar-Rolling-Stock1.jpg

Oh shit. No wonder the estimates are so high. They are going to tear down downtown and build an exact replica backwards. That is jacked up.

XUFan09
11-12-2013, 05:27 PM
The thing about the streetcar is it is literally set in stone. Wherever those rails are, that's where the streetcar will run for the next 20 years. As an investor, I can afford to take a much longer horizon in my risk analysis, and the property becomes more valuable.

This is the strongest reason for the streetcar, as opposed to improving the bus system or designing buses that look like streetcars (This latter idea has been seriously suggested by people that think the big issue is appearances). Bus lines change all the time, turning major public transportation streets into minor tributatories, but you can't simply adjust the streetcar route. A lot of investors are holding on to money while waiting to see how this works out with new elected officials (while some are taking the risk before the prices rise), but if the project survives, there is no real estate location more secure as a place for investment than along the streetcar line.

sirthought
11-12-2013, 06:44 PM
I would have thought that the mayor and transit lobby would have fought more for something more substantial for the whole region...which would be light rail. But I guess after it had been previously defeated, Mallory thought let's think a step smaller and go for a streetcar. It's not quite as smart of a plan because your potential base of customers is much more limited.

However, for the area where they are building, it makes no difference whether it's streetcar or light rail. (And streetcar might actually work better in some ways downtown.) The biggest thing people need to adjust is not the cost of the infrastructure or the cars. It's the investment in business along the route and the service that adds a quality of life to workers and citizens.

I heard so many people on this board dissing Over the Rhine and saying how Washington Park would not succeed. Well, it's been pretty much money in the bank, but a lot of that has been with the expectation of the streetcar. To walk away from this now is going to be so deflating, that all of the people who actually wanted to improve that area and make Cincinnati turn a turd into a gem...they're all going to run. But we need those folks.

Plus, the more we put off some serious upgrades on public mass transit, the worse we're going to have to deal with all the issues our use of cars and roads is creating. We have to start somewhere.

Kahns Krazy
11-13-2013, 07:36 AM
I'm very concerned that cancelling these projects will also make it more expensive for Cincinnati to get things done in the future. A construction firm choosing between bidding projects in Cincinnati, Columbus and Indianapolis is probably less likely to bid the Cincinnati project now that we are building a reputation as project cancellers. Why would you want to take that risk as a vendor?

I'm not opposed to outsourcing the parking administration, but I was very opposed to using 30 year money to fill a 2 year budget gap. I'm interested to see what the next step is since it seems apparent that there is money on the table in parking.

Lamont Sanford
11-13-2013, 08:26 AM
Nay.

xeus
11-13-2013, 10:54 AM
I will only support the streetcar if it goes all the way to Crossroads Church.

XU 87
11-13-2013, 12:46 PM
I will only support the streetcar if it goes all the way to Crossroads Church.

Will the Streetcar be open on Christmas?

If not, I suppose you could drive downtown, park your car, pay for parking, and then pay to take the streetcar to Findlay Market, which I think may be open on Christmas, instead of driving directly to Findlay Market.

While I'm at it, I was involved in a case where the streetcar was involved. The case involved an old building and there was an argument over the fair market value of of said building. Said building was purchased for $500,000 in 2008. One-third of said building was then sold to the City of Cincinnati for $2,000,000 in 2012. Little if any improvements had been made to that portion of the building which was sold. That portion of the building the city bought was then torn down so the city could build a street car maintenance center at that location. In short, the city paid $2,000,000 for a parking lot in Over-the-Rhine.

nuts4xu
11-13-2013, 01:18 PM
In short, the city paid $2,000,000 for a parking lot in Over-the-Rhine.

I wish I had a few parking lots in Over-The-Rhine to get rid of...Geesh!

Kahns Krazy
11-13-2013, 04:03 PM
Will the Streetcar be open on Christmas?

If not, I suppose you could drive downtown, park your car, pay for parking, and then pay to take the streetcar to Findlay Market, which I think may be open on Christmas, instead of driving directly to Findlay Market.

While I'm at it, I was involved in a case where the streetcar was involved. The case involved an old building and there was an argument over the fair market value of of said building. Said building was purchased for $500,000 in 2008. One-third of said building was then sold to the City of Cincinnati for $2,000,000 in 2012. Little if any improvements had been made to that portion of the building which was sold. That portion of the building the city bought was then torn down so the city could build a street car maintenance center at that location. In short, the city paid $2,000,000 for a parking lot in Over-the-Rhine.

Great example of why there needs to be some business people running the development.

PM Thor
11-13-2013, 05:46 PM
Great example of why there needs to be some business people running the development.

Are you advocating the privatization of the streetcar project? Or a quasi-business 3CDC type model?

sirthought
11-13-2013, 10:47 PM
Jesh, it's not a parking lot. They needed the land for a new facility that was located in the central core. That was an ideal property precisely because little had been done to the building in years and it was near the streetcar route. Plus, that end of the street is more industrial than anything else, right now.

XU-PA
11-14-2013, 06:12 AM
yay on the project, big nay to shut down after pumping millions and contractually committing many more millions.

Yes it's a big expenditure, but as a long time cincinnatian now looking at it from 1000 miles away. the hundreds of millions spent improving downtown over the past 2 decades have been well spent, the riverfront is awesome, downtown's business district is awesome, the arts district is awesome. extending the spending on more projects is a good idea. big cities need to keep pumping money, keep making improvements, keep changing to stay attractive to keep bringing people downtown, you can never just sit back and say ok,,, we're done.

Kahns Krazy
11-14-2013, 07:50 AM
Thor, I'm not sure exactly what the model is, but it's closer to 3CDC than privatization. The streetcar won't ever operate at a profit, just like the neighborhood roads, other public transportation, public safety services or city council itself never operates at a profit. The economic benefit comes from increased property values, incremental business revenue and net new residents paying income taxes in the city to support those services. I don't see how privatization could possibly work. Even more difficult because the asset itself will sit on public property.

Unlike the fountain square project, where the city was able to turn over a specific asset with revenue tied to the project (fountain square garage revenues), the impact of the streetcar will be wider, and less of it is currently controlled by the city.

One idea is to enter into agreements with private funding sources to turn over city owned property on the streetcar line when the streetcar is complete, and turn over the streetcar construction to those private funding sources. As 87 pointed out, there is millions of dollars in increased real estate value to be captured. Let's capture as much as we can and use it to offset the cost of building the streetcar.

I guess if I boil it down, my opinion is that I believe that a completed streetcar will provide a benefit in excess of the cost to the city of Cincinnati. I do not have as much faith in the city to execute on the construction plan as I would have in a for-profit group. We absolutely need some people with some skin in the game to manage the construction process.

And why why why why why haven't we hit the casino up for a huge chunk in exchange for running the route out by the casino. The streetcar should pass the casino. It's one of the more significant draws in the city (estimated 5-6 million annual visitors, double the Reds and Bengals combined). These are the kinds of decisions that I believe should be made by business people with skin in the game, not by amateur politicians.

I spend a lot of time in the area that the streetcar will (and already has) impact. Washington Park is an amazing transformation. The tap room at Moerlein is a phenomenal reuse of a historic space. The investments in new restaurants and residential space on Vine is amazing. What is really more amazing though is when you look at a map and you realize just how much of that space remains to be redeveloped. It is staggering. Lots of speculators are holding that property right now, looking to benefit when the streetcar is complete. If the project is cancelled, those speculators sell and get out, the demand drops, the residents that are there now can't sell for what they got in for, and the whole area sours.

Anyone who is in favor of cancelling the streetcar now should go back and read the history of the subway in Cincinnati. It's almost the identical story. Political power struggle led to the cancelling of the project, which is widely regarded as the reason that Cincinnati lost its growth momentum and has a small population today than in 1900.

Cincinnati is one of about 20 cities with a population over 100,000 that is still losing population. That puts us in some fine company with other hotbeds like Flit, Detroit, Rockford, Toledo, Patterson, Akron, Lansing and Mobile. That is not the company I want for my city. I want to be at the other end with Charlotte, Austin, Denver, Charleston, Atlanta, and other cities that.

Masterofreality
11-14-2013, 07:52 AM
Hey, all you have to do is turn the clock back 103 years. That's all

Walnut Street, 1910:
1298

XU 87
11-14-2013, 08:54 AM
Jesh, it's not a parking lot. They needed the land for a new facility that was located in the central core. That was an ideal property precisely because little had been done to the building in years and it was near the streetcar route. Plus, that end of the street is more industrial than anything else, right now.

They bought 1/3 of an old building and tore the building down. What was left was essentially a parking lot. And the worst part is that they paid $2,000,000 for this space when the entire building was purchased for $500,000.

boozehound
11-14-2013, 09:01 AM
Does anybody know what the actual savings would be if we cancelled the Streetcar at this point in the process?

How much of the money has already been spent? Quite a bit of work has already been done downtown. We aren't getting that money back if we cancel it. Even if you don't like the Streetcar if we have already spent (or committed to spend) $100MM of the $133MM cost (or whatever it is) then we might as well finish it at this point. If we are only $20MM into it we might want to discuss if it is worth finishing.

nuts4xu
11-14-2013, 09:06 AM
I think the benefits of the street car outweigh the expense. There are times you need to invest in the city to keep it viable and I see this as one of those opportunities. It is a damn shame the city couldn't think beyond the present 30 years ago. We have needed a more efficient mode of public transportation since the early 70's when Cincinnati was thriving with residents.

boozehound
11-14-2013, 09:55 AM
I think the benefits of the street car outweigh the expense. There are times you need to invest in the city to keep it viable and I see this as one of those opportunities. It is a damn shame the city couldn't think beyond the present 30 years ago. We have needed a more efficient mode of public transportation since the early 70's when Cincinnati was thriving with residents.

I have vacillated quite a bit on whether or not I think the Streetcar is a good idea.

I would consider myself a proponent of downtown in general. I spend quite a bit of time downtown, and I enjoy it. I work downtown, and when I go out for dinner or drinks 90% of the time I go downtown. I tend to stick to places in the Central Business District or the Banks, though. As such I don't think I would use a Streetcar much. My biggest issue with OTR is that all the places there seem to be on a 2+ hour wait all the time, not necessarily the act of getting down there. I do want to hit up the Rhinegheist Tap Room soon, though.

I don't live in the City limits and can't vote, so my opinion doesn't really matter anyways.

PM Thor
11-14-2013, 11:36 AM
By the time Cranley is sworn in, approximately 10% of Phase 1 would be completed. The exact numbers already being spent is an unknown, and the monies lost on cancelling the project is also an unknown. The overall cost for phase 1 is approximately $133 million dollars. Even if this phase is completed, there is no known source as of yet even being considered for phase 2, no less phase 3. Where are the funds going to come from? A tax increase, stealing money from road repair (both of which have happened for phase 1)

I am not completely against the streetcar, but I want the city to get out of the way, stop managing it as if you can just throw money at the problem, and let someone else run the financing and operations of it. If this is going to be such a great investment for business in the area, why not have them come forward to take it over? Where is the Chamber of Commerce on this?

Frambo
11-14-2013, 11:38 AM
I think the cost might be a tad too high, but I do see the value it starting to build up transportation options. We've been traveling lately and love the cities where we can easily access public transportation. Just got an Embassy Suites in Alexandria, Va cheaper because it is a short ride on the subway that drops us off at the Verizon Center for the X-GTown game. I would LOVE a light rail on the I-71 corridor from Kings Island to CVG....should have done this first!

xeus
11-14-2013, 11:59 AM
I would LOVE a light rail on the I-71 corridor from Kings Island to CVG....should have done this first!

Couldn't agree more with this.

The streetcar is not "public transportation". It's an attraction, a form of entertainment, and one which ultimately means very little to the residents of Cincinnati who don't happen to live along its route.

XU 87
11-14-2013, 12:08 PM
I was for the streetcar until I heard that you couldn't bring dogs on it.

xeus
11-14-2013, 12:22 PM
I was for the streetcar until I heard that you couldn't bring dogs on it.

Mayor Elect Cranley has vowed to reverse that policy.

X-band '01
11-14-2013, 12:42 PM
I think the cost might be a tad too high, but I do see the value it starting to build up transportation options. We've been traveling lately and love the cities where we can easily access public transportation. Just got an Embassy Suites in Alexandria, Va cheaper because it is a short ride on the subway that drops us off at the Verizon Center for the X-GTown game. I would LOVE a light rail on the I-71 corridor from Kings Island to CVG....should have done this first!


Couldn't agree more with this.

The streetcar is not "public transportation". It's an attraction, a form of entertainment, and one which ultimately means very little to the residents of Cincinnati who don't happen to live along its route.

There was also discussion of a rail line from Cincinnati to Columbus to Cleveland a couple of years ago; did that project ever get off the ground?

The Kings Island to CVG light rail line would have been a great way to connect more populated areas like Mason, Montgomery, Kenwood Towne Center and probably Norwood to the streetcar line. I suppose the main drawback would be the Cincinnati metro area not having enough of a population compared to other metro areas that also have some form of light rail.

Frambo
11-14-2013, 12:52 PM
There was also discussion of a rail line from Cincinnati to Columbus to Cleveland a couple of years ago; did that project ever get off the ground?

The Kings Island to CVG light rail line would have been a great way to connect more populated areas like Mason, Montgomery, Kenwood Towne Center and probably Norwood to the streetcar line. I suppose the main drawback would be the Cincinnati metro area not having enough of a population compared to other metro areas that also have some form of light rail.

yesterday I was coming from Kenwood to Landen...I-71 was packed northbound and southbound still at 6:45 PM. The light rail would take at least 1/4 of those cars off the road. All I would need is a stop at Dana to get me to the Cintas Center!

boozehound
11-14-2013, 01:09 PM
A rail line from Mason to downtown is definitely an interesting idea. Traffic up 71 or 75 sucks bad at rush hour. I don't understand how people who live in Mason or West Chester and work downtown deal with that commute. That sounds A LOT more expensive than the proposed Streetcar though.

It seems like downtown is doing very well lately without the Streetcar. OTR is packed. The Banks are hopping. The Central Business District and fountain square areas are vibrant.

nuts4xu
11-14-2013, 01:36 PM
It seems like downtown is doing very well lately without the Streetcar. OTR is packed. The Banks are hopping. The Central Business District and fountain square areas are vibrant.

Which is why I would like to see this city take advantage of this momentum and develop ways to keep the city vibrant for decades to come. If a streetcar and a rail line or two are needed, elect people that can get these things done in a fiscally responsible manner.

PM Thor
11-14-2013, 02:01 PM
There was also discussion of a rail line from Cincinnati to Columbus to Cleveland a couple of years ago; did that project ever get off the ground?

The Kings Island to CVG light rail line would have been a great way to connect more populated areas like Mason, Montgomery, Kenwood Towne Center and probably Norwood to the streetcar line. I suppose the main drawback would be the Cincinnati metro area not having enough of a population compared to other metro areas that also have some form of light rail.

Yes, there was a plan for the 3C rail line, even had money earmarked by the Feds for it (not nearly enough, but was allocated for it), our esteemed current governor kiboshed it and the money went to other states for their light rail projects (I think Minnesota, cannot remember exactly).

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/politics/2010/11/08/kasich-to-strickland-cancel-all-passenger-rail-contracts/

XU 87
11-14-2013, 02:14 PM
If you took the proposed train, the train ride from Cincinnati to Cleveland would take 6.5 hours. And that doesn't include the time spent driving to and from the station and waiting for the train.

Cincinnati is not New York or Chicago, where traffic is terrible. Other than rush hour, traffic isn't that bad here. And because traffic isn't that bad, people drive in their cars to get places.

sirthought
11-14-2013, 02:39 PM
If you took the proposed train, the train ride from Cincinnati to Cleveland would take 6.5 hours. And that doesn't include the time spent driving to and from the station and waiting for the train.

Cincinnati is not New York or Chicago, where traffic is terrible. Other than rush hour, traffic isn't that bad here. And because traffic isn't that bad, people drive in their cars to get places.

It's this sort of statement that keeps us in the same f*ckn place for the rest of eternity. I will say that we need high-speed rail more than ever, but still, you have to look at the big picture and decide where to start.

It's not just about traffic. It's about HOW you are moving a ton of people and the OPPORTUNITY to go places efficiently.
In the long run, using highways and cars costs us more in every regard.

XU 87
11-14-2013, 02:57 PM
It's this sort of statement that keeps us in the same f*ckn place for the rest of eternity.

What kind of statement? The Truth? It was going to take 6.5 hours, station to station, to go from Cincinnati to Cleveland. It takes about 3.5 hours to drive there.

Do you dispute that people use their cars in this city because traffic just isn't that bad, except for rush hour?

Most people aren't going to use transportation which is inconvenient or takes too long. And most people aren't concerned about your goal of moving other people efficiently. Most people make their choices on moving themselves efficiently. And if one mode takes over 7 hours, and the other mode takes 3.5 hours, most people will choose the shorter mode. It's really that simple.

Seven Eighths
11-14-2013, 03:00 PM
What kind of statement? The Truth? It was going to take 6.5 hours, station to station, to go from Cincinnati to Cleveland. It takes about 3.5 hours to drive there.

Most people aren't going to use transportation which is inconveniant or takes too long.

Also, people like individual freedoms. Maybe they want to go to Cleveland at a time when the train is not running or maybe they want to go 30 miles east of Cleveland. Trains are cool in Europe but I don't see them ever working in the US again.

danaandvictory
11-14-2013, 03:18 PM
What kind of statement? The Truth? It was going to take 6.5 hours, station to station, to go from Cincinnati to Cleveland. It takes about 3.5 hours to drive there.

Spending a little bit of extra time to avoid having to drive, road construction, potential weather issues, etc., would be worth it for me. When I go to Chicago I usually take Megabus because I hate driving. But not doubling the transit time. The abysmal timetables and ridiculous costs of the proposed 3C light rail were so high it almost was like a plant from a group that hates public transport.


Do you dispute that people use their cars in this city because traffic just isn't that bad, except for rush hour?

I have noticed over the last year that traffic has gotten markedly worse in Cincinnati and God knows when they finally fix the Brent Spence it's going to be Armageddon.

XU 87
11-14-2013, 03:23 PM
I agree with you about the bridge. I thought we were getting a new one some time down the road. And we really need 75to have a few more lanes.

Kahns Krazy
11-14-2013, 03:43 PM
Does anybody know what the actual savings would be if we cancelled the Streetcar at this point in the process?

How much of the money has already been spent? Quite a bit of work has already been done downtown. We aren't getting that money back if we cancel it. Even if you don't like the Streetcar if we have already spent (or committed to spend) $100MM of the $133MM cost (or whatever it is) then we might as well finish it at this point. If we are only $20MM into it we might want to discuss if it is worth finishing.

It will depend a lot on what you call "savings". They are moving a lot of utility lines, but that is also functioning as a major refurbishment of those utility lines. There would have been a future expenditure to dig up those lines and replace them at some point.

xumuskies08
11-14-2013, 03:50 PM
Yay on the Streetcar. IMO it's not a question of the up front costs. The Streetcar is a long-term investment. I understand it's a lot of money, but I think the city has to capitalize on the current momentum. It would be a shame to see the city relapse after all the progress we've seen over the past decade or so. If Cranley does succeed in stoping construction I think it will be a worse black mark on the city than the failed subway.

PM Thor
11-14-2013, 03:50 PM
If you took the proposed train, the train ride from Cincinnati to Cleveland would take 6.5 hours. And that doesn't include the time spent driving to and from the station and waiting for the train.

Cincinnati is not New York or Chicago, where traffic is terrible. Other than rush hour, traffic isn't that bad here. And because traffic isn't that bad, people drive in their cars to get places.

87, you are using that number based on no improvements to the rail lines whatsoever, using non high speed, freight lines. If the Northeastern corridor is used as an example, much higher speeds are achievable. But there is the crux, it might be cost prohibitive to make such improvements to the rail system. Time is not the mitigating factor for why 3C isn't being built, it's the cost.

And quite honestly, that timeframe you used wouldn't stop me from riding it anyway.

X-band '01
11-14-2013, 03:55 PM
I agree with you about the bridge. I thought we were getting a new one some time down the road. And we really need 75to have a few more lanes.

If expansions in cities like Atlanta (or bridge replacements in Louisville) are any indicator, be prepared to pay tolls in the future for the new Brent Spence Bridge as well as possible tolls for an additional "express" lane that could be build for a freeway like I-75. The law doesn't allow for highways without tolls to implement future tolls (i.e. Interstate 80 in Pennsylvania), but there are loopholes in place where you could construct additional lanes (aka "Lexus Lanes") and still charge tolls for driving in said lanes.

XU 87
11-14-2013, 03:59 PM
87, you are using that number based on no improvements to the rail lines whatsoever, using non high speed, freight lines. If the Northeastern corridor is used as an example, much higher speeds are achievable. But there is the crux, it might be cost prohibitive to make such improvements to the rail system. Time is not the mitigating factor for why 3C isn't being built, it's the cost.

And quite honestly, that timeframe you used wouldn't stop me from riding it anyway.

I am using that number based on what was published. The other problem is that the train was going to Columbus and Cleveland by way of Dayton.

If you want to turn a 3.5 hour trip into 7.5 hour trip, that's your choice. But most people think differently, particularly if you're going to Cleveland on a one day business trip, which becomes two days if you go by train.

Caveat
11-14-2013, 04:34 PM
Yay on the Streetcar. IMO it's not a question of the up front costs. The Streetcar is a long-term investment. I understand it's a lot of money, but I think the city has to capitalize on the current momentum. It would be a shame to see the city relapse after all the progress we've seen over the past decade or so. If Cranley does succeed in stoping construction I think it will be a worse black mark on the city than the failed subway.

Read this:
http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/articles/streetcarscam-otoole.pdf

The Portland Streetcar -- the "gold standard" constantly being held up as something Cincinnati should aspire to -- succeeded in bringing economic development because of massive tax incentives for development along the line. Unsurprisingly, Cincinnati is doing the same thing in OTR and development is thriving already without the streetcar.

Cincinnati needs mass transit improvements to help get people downtown, where they spend their money, drink, enjoy downtown entertainment, and not have to worry about parking or driving home. Once you get people coming downtown and get people downtown without their cars, you can worry about building population circulators like a streetcar.

XUFan09
11-14-2013, 04:38 PM
http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2013/11/14/feds-if-you-kill-the-streetcar-we.html?ana=e_cinci_bn

PM Thor
11-14-2013, 05:10 PM
I am using that number based on what was published. The other problem is that the train was going to Columbus and Cleveland by way of Dayton.

If you want to turn a 3.5 hour trip into 7.5 hour trip, that's your choice. But most people think differently, particularly if you're going to Cleveland on a one day business trip, which becomes two days if you go by train.

And I am clarifying that what was published is based on current rail lines, not the ones that would need to be built to support paaanger speed rail. You conveniently overlook that the 6.5 hour timeframe is based on NO improvements, not possible future rail lines. Heck, the NEC averages 79 MPH, not the 37 MPH that the 3C would start out with, but you have to start somewhere. This is all moot though, since it's dead.

PM Thor
11-14-2013, 05:15 PM
http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2013/11/14/feds-if-you-kill-the-streetcar-we.html?ana=e_cinci_bn

I take that with a grain of salt, because it was released by Mallory who obviously wants it to come across really badly.

XUFan09
11-14-2013, 05:48 PM
I take that with a grain of salt, because it was released by Mallory who obviously wants it to come across really badly.

Oh yeah, I figure any intelligent person on this board would see the angle. Still worth considering, as I expect all federal money will be owed back if it's not used for the initial intent. I'm skeptical at the success of Cranley's attempt to re-route the money elsewhere.

XU 87
11-14-2013, 06:05 PM
http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2013/11/14/feds-if-you-kill-the-streetcar-we.html?ana=e_cinci_bn

Instead of paying back the feds the $2.4 million that has already been sent, I suggest we just give the feds the $2 million parking lot the city just bought in OTR. That's probably a good deal for the feds since that property appreciated by tenfold in just a few years.

sirthought
11-14-2013, 07:54 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BZEsjcbCMAE8z9p.jpg

Caveat
11-14-2013, 08:22 PM
The damages for breach are spelled out in every government contract. If they aren't, the level of malpractice involved in the construction of this boondoggle exceeds anyone's wildest imagination.

The only unknown in that entire group is the taxpayers / OTR residents, and that kind of case has virtually no chance of being successful.

And even if damages exceed the cost of the streetcar, the taxpayers STILL save money every year by not having to pay the operating costs.

sirthought
11-14-2013, 08:34 PM
Comments from the town hall meeting tonight at Mercantile Library. (They had a full house and simulcast the event on the jumbotron at Fountain Square where those who couldn't fit in the library watched in support.)

John Schneider: This is a baby step to a regional light rail system.

Messer: Cost of cancellation is unimaginable. Over $100 million, city reputation, lost opportunity costs.
Messer: project will bring money to all city neighborhoods, not just those along the route.

Attorney Don Mooney discussing lawsuits if city stops projects. Plaintiffs could include contractors, utilities, Fed govt and taxpayers.

Wendell Young: We're not building a 5 yr or 10 yr project, we're building a 100 year system here. He said Mayor of Kansas City told him, "You know if you don't do this, we're in line to get your money."
A lot of jobs along or close to streetcar line in Portland were there b/c of streetcar line. Vitality created due to streetcar.

Chris Seelbach: Financial benefit is Streetcar drives development, creates jobs which increases tax base. Seelbach says supporters need to lobby council members-elect Mann and Flynn to keep streetcar going.

Along streetcar lines in Portland, Tacoma and Seattle, population increased 47%. Bigger population = more taxpayers

Sittenfeld seems like he's on the pro-do-not-cancel side at this stage. We'll see.

Ryan Messer: the streetcar is part of a much larger economic development incentive that benefits the entire region.

xu82
11-14-2013, 08:35 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BZEsjcbCMAE8z9p.jpg

Well said. I think. All I am really sure of is there are a lot of arrows pointed at the city. Pretty sure that's a bad thing.

XU 87
11-14-2013, 08:47 PM
Messer: Cost of cancellation is unimaginable. Over $100 million, city reputation, lost opportunity costs.
Messer: project will bring money to all city neighborhoods, not just those along the route.




Ryan Messer: the streetcar is part of a much larger economic development incentive that benefits the entire region.

Is that Messer, as in Messer Construction?

If so, I'm sure they have no pecuniary interest in this.

XU 87
11-14-2013, 08:55 PM
It's currently on time and on budget.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20130513/NEWS/305130021

Are you sure about that?

PM Thor
11-14-2013, 09:44 PM
Well said. I think. All I am really sure of is there are a lot of arrows pointed at the city. Pretty sure that's a bad thing.

You can take out a bunch of those simply on the basis that they don't want to ruin any future dealings with the city, not to mention taking out Water works, TIF, sewer district...city won't sue itself. And the taxpayers (ie, those taxpayers/investors in OTR) have a loser of a case. I mean, I own a house in College Hill. The city was investing in a construction project at the corner of North Bend and Hamilton Ave, but pulled their funding, effectively killing the project. Do you think I, and my neighbors, have a case because the loss of the project hurt our property value?

blobfan
11-14-2013, 10:00 PM
Kahn's, I think you made an impassioned plea for the streetcar in your initial post but you fall into the same pitfall as all other supporters: you BELIEVE this will bring good things to the city but don't have reliable proof. And that's the underlying problem, the primary reason I do not support this particular streetcar project. You don't spend $100M+ dollars of taxpayer dollars on the hunch that something will work out. We are not Portland or any of the other cities where streetcars were built--usually as a part of a larger plan--and where they have met with success. We have no larger plan. How many years after the initial approval are we? Whispers about partnering with the casino in adding a leg haven't panned out even though casino developers expressed interest. The fact that the Mayor wasn't on the phone the day that article was published to get that support in writing underlines the shakiness of this project. It's been all flair and no substance.

I'm not a fan of Cranley or Qualls but frankly if either of them were to tell me the streetcar was valid I'd believe it more than 'let me take another taxpayer funded trip' Mallory. I have no idea what he and his cronies have been up to. I hope Cranley can do a better job. At a minimum, if the project goes forward then local businesses need to put some skin in the game. We also need to hash out some more detail around Phase 2 and get an outline of phases 3 and 4 or we're going to end of tearing up part of Phase 1 to make things work in the future.

This whole project has been such a punt in the dark. Now that I managed to move my butt out of the city I'm hoping that my office decides to transfer when our lease is up so I can pull the rest of my taxes out of this mess. Not likely to happen but a girl can dream.

Juice
11-15-2013, 12:51 AM
http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20130513/NEWS/305130021

Are you sure about that?

Thank you for finding that.

I see this as something that will shape up similarly to the stadium problems for Hamilton County. All these wonderful things were promised but I think costs will far outweigh the benefits. That article was from May and they were already having budget problems. Think what will happen if/when they actually start building this thing or when it's operating years from now with the costs not being covered by its operation.

boozehound
11-15-2013, 06:01 AM
The damages for breach are spelled out in every government contract. If they aren't, the level of malpractice involved in the construction of this boondoggle exceeds anyone's wildest imagination.

The only unknown in that entire group is the taxpayers / OTR residents, and that kind of case has virtually no chance of being successful.

And even if damages exceed the cost of the streetcar, the taxpayers STILL save money every year by not having to pay the operating costs.

The projected annual deficit is relatively minor as I understand it.

If the only thing we save by cancelling the Streetcar at this point is the annual operating loss I would think we should just go ahead and finish it.

To me the Streetcar success (or failure) hinges on the impact it has on property along the route. If proponents are right about the revitalizing effect it will have along the planned route then it will have been a good thing. If they significantly exaggerated the effects then it will be a waste of money. I don't know enough to know what is going to happen.

Kahns Krazy
11-15-2013, 08:54 AM
Kahn's, I think you made an impassioned plea for the streetcar in your initial post but you fall into the same pitfall as all other supporters: you BELIEVE this will bring good things to the city but don't have reliable proof. .

There can be no such thing as reliable proof, so there is no convincing you. There are expert studies that say it will provide those benefits, based on existing date. There is evidence that urban circulators have been overwhelmingly successful in a predominance of cities they have been built in. What evidence do you have that Cincinnati will buck that trend? Many people have pointed out that the route already has some momentum, something that other cities did not have. Wouldn't that help our streetcar vs other cities? We also have more existing, redevelopable real estate along the line than any other city did. That should help us too.

People were vocally against the Fountain Square renovation. That $49 million project is widely regarded as a tremendous success. People were vocally against the Banks. That area is also a resounding success - and a terminal point on the streetcar. How many homeruns do you need to hit before you get the benefit of the doubt on the next at bat?

I'm also frustrated that many people point to the pricetag without any reference point and say that is a reason that this project shouldn't move forward. Do you have any idea what the capital budget is for the Water Works this year? How about the MSD? Streets and Parks? We spend $100m all the time on the hunch that doing so is for the overall benefit of the city. There is no proof that there would be any negative repurcussions of demolishing the Western Hills viaduct. Preliminary projections put that project well over $200 million. Where is the public outcry? Why is it that only when we talk about the Streetcar project to we discuss the total pricetag, and not just the city portion of the pricetage. The state and federal dollars will be spent somewhere else, so not doing the streetcar in Cincinnati won't save a dime of those tax dollars. When you talk about buying an iPhone, do you say it costs $649 because that's what the unsubsidized retail cost is? Or do you say it's $199, because that's what you actually pay.

You can be against the streetcar, but do so because you understand it and you're against it, not because someone scared you into believing there is no evidence it will succeed and waved the bloated cost around.

Read up on the subway. If the streetcar project is cancelled, it will be the next chapter in the dysfunction that is Cincinnati city planning.

Kahns Krazy
11-15-2013, 08:58 AM
This whole project has been such a punt in the dark. Now that I managed to move my butt out of the city I'm hoping that my office decides to transfer when our lease is up so I can pull the rest of my taxes out of this mess. Not likely to happen but a girl can dream.

I missed this part. If your dream is to leave the city, then please keep your uninformed opinions about investments in the city to yourself. I live here, I work here, and I plan to retire here. I can't wait until all the dreaming naysayers move away and let the potential in this city grow into reality.
Why don't you just get a job where you moved to?

xeus
11-15-2013, 09:37 AM
The city was investing in a construction project at the corner of North Bend and Hamilton Ave, but pulled their funding, effectively killing the project. Do you think I, and my neighbors, have a case because the loss of the project hurt our property value?

Did you buy your house there in reliance on that project being completed? Therein lies the difference...

danaandvictory
11-15-2013, 10:09 AM
I missed this part. If your dream is to leave the city, then please keep your uninformed opinions about investments in the city to yourself. I live here, I work here, and I plan to retire here. I can't wait until all the dreaming naysayers move away and let the potential in this city grow into reality.
Why don't you just get a job where you moved to?

This is why I refer to the outer-ring suburbs of Cincinnati as the Smug Belt.

XU 87
11-15-2013, 10:31 AM
People were vocally against the Fountain Square renovation. That $49 million project is widely regarded as a tremendous success. People were vocally against the Banks. That area is also a resounding success - and a terminal point on the streetcar.

Read up on the subway. If the streetcar project is cancelled, it will be the next chapter in the dysfunction that is Cincinnati city planning.

I don't recall a huge outcry against Fountain Square or the Banks. I know I wasn't against them, althought at the time I had questions about what they were trying to accomplish at Fountain Square.

As for the Subway, I think I read they had to stop becasue they ran out of money during the depression.

Caveat
11-15-2013, 10:58 AM
I missed this part. If your dream is to leave the city, then please keep your uninformed opinions about investments in the city to yourself. I live here, I work here, and I plan to retire here. I can't wait until all the dreaming naysayers move away and let the potential in this city grow into reality.
Why don't you just get a job where you moved to?

The city is more than just Over The Rhine.

Mallory (and, by proxy, Qualls) forgot that over the last decade. While the progress in OTR has been great, the rest of us (and I say us, since I am a homeowner in the City) in neighborhoods like Westwood, Oakley, Price Hill, etc. wonder when it's going to be OUR turn to see some benefit from our property taxes and earnings taxes. You can't keep telling people in the neighborhoods to pay and pay to benefit one small area of the larger city.

Everyone who lives in the city want it to grow, thrive and do well -- it's just that the rest of us are sick of elected officials who seem to only care about the growth and well being of one area.

Kahns Krazy
11-15-2013, 11:35 AM
The city is more than just Over The Rhine.
.

And the streetcar is more than OTR also. It is the city core (Clifton to the Banks, including the CBD), and the city is nothing without the core. Neighborhoods don't exist without the core. Where do you think the tax revenues come from that pay for the firehouse in Winton Place, or the District 4 police? They are coming out of the core. The flow of funds in the city goes from the core out, not the other way around. The investment taking place now is long overdue, and critical for the future of all neighborhoods.

xeus
11-15-2013, 11:51 AM
Neighborhoods don't exist without the core. Where do you think the tax revenues come from that pay for the firehouse in Winton Place, or the District 4 police? They are coming out of the core. The flow of funds in the city goes from the core out, not the other way around. The investment taking place now is long overdue, and critical for the future of all neighborhoods.

Where is this "flow of funds" coming from exactly?

Kahns Krazy
11-15-2013, 12:08 PM
As for the Subway, I think I read they had to stop becasue they ran out of money during the depression.

Construction costs increased, that is true. However, work was continuing and what ultimately killed it was a new mayor coming in and abrubtly halting the plan.

Can you guess which project I am describing?

Seven Eighths
11-15-2013, 12:13 PM
I think the city and OTR will continue to do just fine without the streetcar.

Kahns Krazy
11-15-2013, 12:17 PM
Where is this "flow of funds" coming from exactly?

Taxes that are earned and paid downtown and in Clifton and spent in the neighborhoods. Where do you think the city tax revenues come from? Everybody's Record's sales? Where is the tax base that is supporting Cranley's oh-so critical I-71-MLK interchange project ($108 million) ?


City Income Tax. The City Income Tax is a 2.1% locally levied earnings tax applied to gross salaries,
wages, and other personnel service compensation earned by residents who work both in and out of the
City and by non-residents who work in the City. It also applies to net income of business organizations
for business conducted in the City. The component of the 2.1% city income tax dedicated for General
Fund use is 1.55%. The income tax is the largest single source of General Fund revenue.

Kahns Krazy
11-15-2013, 12:18 PM
I think the city and OTR will continue to do just fine without the streetcar.

As long as you consider losing population while the rest of the country is growing as "just fine", then I agree with you 100%. I tend to not think that is fine. I do think it is very "Cincinnati" to insist that things are just fine here in the face of outside data to the contrary.

Seven Eighths
11-15-2013, 12:25 PM
As long as you consider losing population while the rest of the country is growing as "just fine", then I agree with you 100%. I tend to not think that is fine. I do think it is very "Cincinnati" to insist that things are just fine here in the face of outside data to the contrary.

I have noticed quite a bit of development in the city and OTR in the last decade, which demonstrates organizations like 3CDC are trying to do what they can to make the area more desireable for people to stay here.

I don't see how a 3.6 mile looped streetcar in a walkable area of town is going to magically reverse the population trends you mentioned.

xeus
11-15-2013, 12:35 PM
Taxes that are earned and paid downtown and in Clifton and spent in the neighborhoods. Where do you think the city tax revenues come from? Everybody's Record's sales? Where is the tax base that is supporting Cranley's oh-so critical I-71-MLK interchange project ($108 million) ?

FYI, Qualls supports that interchange every bit as much as Cranley. It's a bit disingenuous to call that "Cranley's project".

And surprisingly, I do understand the basics of municipal revenue. What I don't foresee is a streetcar having any measurable impact on that revenue. So where is that flow of funds coming from? Bakersfield OTR? Findlay Market?

Caveat
11-15-2013, 12:37 PM
I have noticed quite a bit of development in the city and OTR in the last decade, which demonstrates organizations like 3CDC are trying to do what they can to make the area more desireable for people to stay here.

I don't see how a 3.6 mile looped streetcar in a walkable area of town is going to magically reverse the population trends you mentioned.

Because he refuses to read the document I posted that debunks the myth that streetcars cause development -- tax abatements, building incentives, TIF districts, etc. are the catalysts for development. In Portland, they gave away BILLIONS (with a "B") in money to developers along the streetcar route and the entire area began to boom. When those incentives were removed, the streetcar alone provided little to no development increases.

It's interesting how these streetcar supporters refuse to acknowledge that growth in OTR is happening right this second without a single track in use. If the streetcar was this necessary component for growth, why are their businesses opening (and thriving) right now without it? Surely if the streetcar was necessary for growth, these restaurants and businesses would have waited until it was running to open to prevent losing money while they wait for the line to be completed.

And no, the CBD isn't the only driver of revenue in the city. Those of us who live in the city neighborhoods pay property taxes and earnings taxes. We deserve our roads paved and our neighborhoods kept clean and safe too -- if the hipsters who live in OTR need a trolley to save them from having to walk a few blocks, they should be more than willing to pass increased property taxes or an increased sales-tax zone in their community to help fund it.

blobfan
11-15-2013, 12:56 PM
I missed this part. If your dream is to leave the city, then please keep your uninformed opinions about investments in the city to yourself. I live here, I work here, and I plan to retire here. I can't wait until all the dreaming naysayers move away and let the potential in this city grow into reality.
Why don't you just get a job where you moved to?
I live in an inner-ring suburb that is not under city jurisdiction. For more than a decade I lived in Cincinnati and watched as my city taxes increased while the services provided decreased. I got sick of seeing the same idiots re-elected cycle after cycle. I'm now experiencing what it's like to have responsive local government and it's wondrous! Now I live in a community where the primary goal of government isn't about passing the buck, throwing up red tape, and lining cronies' pockets, it's about working with residents and business to move forward in a community-minded manner. City of Cincinnati promised this years ago but apparently you have to be at a certain economic threshold, or related to a mayor/counsel member, in order to get anything done.

In the current environment, I cannot support a project that is monitored and executed solely by elected officials and their chosen pals. Recent history has shown that good things only happen in Cincinnati when private partnership is involved. Please cite an opposing example if you have one. I haven't seen enough private partnership involved and in fact there have been several missed opportunities to bring it in. Yet we have all these business and property owners chomping at the bit for the thing to be built. I'd like to see them invest directly in the project if they think it's so important.

As for your suggestion that I read up on other places where the streetcar worked, we've had this conversation before. I've read the studies and they are ALL correlational. What's more, where successful, the streetcar projects were part of larger plans, plans that after all these years the City of Cincinnati has failed to develop. Where's the vehicle free zone like Portland has? Where's the plan to stimulate growth three blocks deep from the line like another city had (Kansas City maybe?) I repeat: this is a punt in the dark. The streetcar philosphy here seems to be 'If you build it, they will come.' It's not going to be the easy fix they are selling it to be. Any money the city makes from development around the streetcar will need to be funneled back into the project and maintaining the immediate area. I'm not saying that's wrong or a bad thing but the people planning and implementing the project need to confront this reality rather than trying to sell us dreams of easy economic fixes. No one involved is acknowledging this reality, at least in the articles and studies I've read. If you think I've missed something, please provide quotes and links, cause I've read pretty much everything that's been linked in the various discussion threads on the topic.

As for trying to get me to shut up or move away: F#&% you. You wonder why opponents get so riled up about this issue it's because people like you come up with this knee-jerk 'people who hate this streetcar plan are anti-transportation suburb dwelling unpatriotic selfish jerks.' I voted for the lightrail, jerk. I voted against the stupid anti-public transportation bills that COAST tried to pass even though I knew the idiots in our government would pretend that it was a vote FOR the streetcar rather than what it really was: a vote for sane government. I just love how they sold it one way during the campaign process and did a 180 once the initiatives failed. I pay taxes in Cincinnati, lots of them, I just don't get to vote because I chose to move out. It was worth losing that option just so I could make sane choices about what to do with my own home and property and live on a street that wasn't full of cracks and washing down the hill. It's not as though my votes counted anyway. But I've certainly paid for the right to share my opinion about how my taxes are spent. Even if my taxes were increased to support a feasible plan, I'd be all for it. I love the new riverfront park and Fountain Square and Washington Park. I go out of my way to spend money down here to support good businesses and sane development. The streetcar project is neither.

paulxu
11-15-2013, 01:09 PM
I'm guessing that just might be Rule #2.

GuyFawkes38
11-15-2013, 01:19 PM
In the current environment, I cannot support a project that is monitored and executed solely by elected officials and their chosen pals. Recent history has shown that good things only happen in Cincinnati when private partnership is involved. Please cite an opposing example if you have one. I haven't seen enough private partnership involved and in fact there have been several missed opportunities to bring it in. Yet we have all these business and property owners chomping at the bit for the thing to be built. I'd like to see them invest directly in the project if they think it's so important.


I've mentioned this before, but it's worth repeating. Paul Brown stadium has been a disaster for Cincinnati. For supporters of the streetcar like myself, it's hard to get around.

xeus
11-15-2013, 01:27 PM
For supporters of the streetcar like myself, it's hard to get around.

You can walk, ride a bike, take the bus, or drive a car.

blobfan
11-15-2013, 01:32 PM
I've mentioned this before, but it's worth repeating. Paul Brown stadium has been a disaster for Cincinnati. For supporters of the streetcar like myself, it's hard to get around.

I've mentioned that to KK and Sirthought in the past but they gloss right over it and share links to the same type of correlational studies that were provided during the stadium campaign. The difference here is that there is a logical argument for public funding of a streetcar and public transportation in general. There's not one for funding a home and welfare for millionaires/billionaires in a protected monopoly.

As I've consistently said, though, this is not a good plan. It isn't a plan at all so much as an attempt at a magic bullet. My sincerest hope isn't for a cancellation of this and all streetcar development but for a sanity pause followed by bringing in private concerns, development of a broader, cohesive transportation plan and an honest discourse about the costs.

danaandvictory
11-15-2013, 02:27 PM
The city is more than just Over The Rhine.

Mallory (and, by proxy, Qualls) forgot that over the last decade. While the progress in OTR has been great, the rest of us (and I say us, since I am a homeowner in the City) in neighborhoods like Westwood, Oakley, Price Hill, etc. wonder when it's going to be OUR turn to see some benefit from our property taxes and earnings taxes.

I have lived in Oakley for six years and am pretty sure during that time I've seen the construction of Geier Esplanade, massive and necessary renovations to Madison Road, more and more businesses in and around the square, and the development of the movie theater and associated infrastructure. And my property value apparently climbed in a rocket.

I'm pleased with the growth downtown and in OTR but I'm damned happy with what's been done in Oakley as well.

boozehound
11-15-2013, 02:30 PM
As long as you consider losing population while the rest of the country is growing as "just fine", then I agree with you 100%. I tend to not think that is fine. I do think it is very "Cincinnati" to insist that things are just fine here in the face of outside data to the contrary.

Is the population loss coming from downtown and OTR, or from other neighborhoods?

I was under the impression that it was neighborhoods like Westwood, Price Hill, Avondale, Bond Hill, North College Hill etc. that were driving the population decline in the City of Cincinnati, and that downtown and OTR were actually growing in population. I can't recall where I read that though.

The problem that I see with the city is this: There are few, if any, middle class neighborhoods left within the city limits anymore. If you want to raise a family in a nice, safe, clean, neighborhood it is very expensive to live within the city limits. You have to go to areas like Hyde Park, Oakley, Mt. Lookout, or Wyoming and pay significantly higher housing prices than elsewhere in the city. You then (most likely) have to pay for private schools for you children. Mt. Washington is probably the closest thing there is to a legit 'middle class' neighborhood within the city limits, and it is a pretty small area.

Juice
11-15-2013, 02:40 PM
Is the population loss coming from downtown and OTR, or from other neighborhoods?

I was under the impression that it was neighborhoods like Westwood, Price Hill, Avondale, Bond Hill, North College Hill etc. that were driving the population decline in the City of Cincinnati, and that downtown and OTR were actually growing in population. I can't recall where I read that though.

The problem that I see with the city is this: There are few, if any, middle class neighborhoods left within the city limits anymore. If you want to raise a family in a nice, safe, clean, neighborhood it is very expensive to live within the city limits. You have to go to areas like Hyde Park, Oakley, Mt. Lookout, or Wyoming and pay significantly higher housing prices than elsewhere in the city. You then (most likely) have to pay for private schools for you children. Mt. Washington is probably the closest thing there is to a legit 'middle class' neighborhood within the city limits, and it is a pretty small area.

And Mt. Washington is seeing a crime uptick, especially along Sutton where there is a lot of Section 8 housing.

boozehound
11-15-2013, 03:39 PM
And Mt. Washington is seeing a crime uptick, especially along Sutton where there is a lot of Section 8 housing.

Definitely.

I think that might be part of what many city residents don't like about the Streetcar. People in neighborhoods like Westwood, Price Hill, Mt. Washington (to a lesser degree) that have generally been the victims of attempts at gentrification of downtown and OTR. Their neighborhoods have been in steady, rapid, decline for 30 or more years now as a result of increased section 8 housing. Rightly or wrongly many people in those neighborhoods associate the closing down of many of the housing projects in OTR and the subsequent spreading of Section 8 housing into their neighborhoods as the driver of their decline. They see this as the city dumping more money into revitalizing OTR while their neighborhoods suffer.

LadyMuskie
11-15-2013, 05:11 PM
There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the gentrification of OTR and downtown has pushed those residents to Westwood and Price Hill. None. There's no maybe. It is a fact. However, the same people who would normally abhor gentrification are okay with it this time around because it will benefit them and their new residences.

And for that reason alone, I will never support the trolley. The trolley was planned and is being constructed while ignoring the downfall of other city neighborhoods. The city of Cincinnati is more than just 2 neighborhoods. My neighborhood and the other 49 neighborhoods not OTR or downtown will never benefit from the trolley. We're already paying more in taxes for something an overwhelming majority of us will never use, and because the cost of operating it year in and year out is only an estimate (and all of the estimates have been wrong thus far), we're unlikely to benefit in any way that will make up for more crime in our neighborhoods, for high property taxes, and for less fire and police protection.

The trolley is being built on the backs of the residents of the city who don't live on its 3 mile loop. It should not only be stopped, an investigation should take place to determine why Mallory was determined to have the trolley no matter what. On the take much, former mayor?

xeus
11-15-2013, 10:00 PM
There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the gentrification of OTR and downtown has pushed those residents to Westwood and Price Hill. None. There's no maybe. It is a fact. However, the same people who would normally abhor gentrification are okay with it this time around because it will benefit them and their new residences.

And for that reason alone, I will never support the trolley. The trolley was planned and is being constructed while ignoring the downfall of other city neighborhoods. The city of Cincinnati is more than just 2 neighborhoods. My neighborhood and the other 49 neighborhoods not OTR or downtown will never benefit from the trolley. We're already paying more in taxes for something an overwhelming majority of us will never use, and because the cost of operating it year in and year out is only an estimate (and all of the estimates have been wrong thus far), we're unlikely to benefit in any way that will make up for more crime in our neighborhoods, for high property taxes, and for less fire and police protection.

The trolley is being built on the backs of the residents of the city who don't live on its 3 mile loop. It should not only be stopped, an investigation should take place to determine why Mallory was determined to have the trolley no matter what. On the take much, former mayor?

That's a great take on this issue. I've often wondered how the loud voice of the downtown hipster liberal contingent has been able to reconcile the displacement of the poor and marginalized population of OTR in the name of "progress".

As a resident of a Cincinnati neighborhood with an unacceptably high level of crime, I would like to also displace the crime by pushing out the lower income residents, just like they did in OTR. Can we get a trolley in Pleasant Ridge? Surely there's a Mallory somewhere in government who would support that.

Kahns Krazy
11-16-2013, 10:27 AM
FYI, Qualls supports that interchange every bit as much as Cranley. It's a bit disingenuous to call that "Cranley's project".


Cranley and Channel 5 might disagree with you. Cranley seems to be very eager to put his name on the project, including taking credit for starting the idea years ago.

http://www.wlwt.com/news/local-news/cincinnati/funding-plan-approved-for-mlk-interchange/-/13549970/22980086/-/3j2403z/-/index.html


The irony is that the reason cited for MLK exchange is because there are too many cars going into Clifton. A live/work/play neighborhood on the streetcar line with access to Clifton would reduce the automobile traffic into Clifton. It amazes me that we continue to spend hundreds of millions on enabling car traffic and we fight any project that addresses the long term options for living here without needing a car.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why the Streetcar is such a lighting rod. Why does one $100 million project draw such fire, but another just chugs right along. The Western Hills Viaduct project is projected at $200 million for just over half a mile . The Kennedy connector project is estimated at $35 million for a stretch of road that is about 2000 feet long. All of the same arguments that are used against the streetcar are equally valid for any of these projects - economic benefits are unproven, the use and benefit goes to a small percentage of the population, short route, etc. Why are so many people so vocal about one project?

xeus
11-16-2013, 10:56 AM
The irony is that the reason cited for MLK exchange is because there are too many cars going into Clifton. A live/work/play neighborhood on the streetcar line with access to Clifton would reduce the automobile traffic into Clifton. It amazes me that we continue to spend hundreds of millions on enabling car traffic and we fight any project that addresses the long term options for living here without needing a car.



C'mon Kahns. I know you don't really think the streetcar creates a viable long term option for living in Cincinnati without a car.

Look, this isn't New York City. This goofy little streetcar might cause a few hipsters to trade in their Prius for a streetcar pass, but ultimately in this town, you need a car. Or a bike. Or, if you are cool enough, a Vespa scooter. Or, if not, a Metro pass.

And I realize that attitude probably makes me a myopic, anti-progress, anti-gay, environment-hating racist in the eyes of streetcar supporters - which answers your question about why this is such a lightning rod issue. The vitriol, particularly from those who support the streetcar, and the assumptions made about those who oppose it, are really beyond the pale.

As you know, despite your argument, the streetcar is much much different from a road project such as the WH Viaduct or the Kennedy Connector. Those projects facilitate actual automobile traffic - which is how most people get around. Clifton isn't crowded with automobiles because of the OTR residents driving up the hill - it is crowded because the current road infrastructure is insufficient. The MLK interchange addresses that. Ask Roxanne.

Caveat
11-16-2013, 12:46 PM
The streetcar is a circulator, not a transportation option. It replaces people walking from OTR to Fountain Square or the Banks, not driving to those places.

If it ran someplace useful -- like between Hyde Park and Downtown (where people might be commuting in to work, or people downtown might be going out to shop), you might have an argument that it serves a transportation function.

And the "well, it's a first step" argument is nonsense. History suggests that government programs rarely make it to a second phase with anything resembling speed or alacrity.

Kahns Krazy
11-16-2013, 03:24 PM
C'mon Kahns. I know you don't really think the streetcar creates a viable long term option for living in Cincinnati without a car.
.

I don't believe that it makes Cincinnati a town that you can live anywhere without a car, but line that continues into Clifton would make it rather easy to live in OTR, get to work, get most of your errands done, and have a very active nightlife without having a car. Certainly, a two worker household could get away with one car with no problem.

It is also just part of a larger solution. Caveat wants to poo-poo that, but the Eastern Corridor project is moving forward, including a light rail option from the East Side. Of course, if you fight every step in the project, it makes sense that it will be difficult to move the project along.

Kahns Krazy
11-16-2013, 03:29 PM
Look, this isn't New York City. This goofy little streetcar might cause a few hipsters to trade in their Prius for a streetcar pass, but ultimately in this town, you need a car. Or a bike. Or, if you are cool enough, a Vespa scooter. Or, if not, a Metro pass. .

You know, when you have to make little potshots at the project it makes your argument seem weaker. That's a Thor tactic. You're better than that.

Caveat
11-16-2013, 04:23 PM
I don't believe that it makes Cincinnati a town that you can live anywhere without a car, but line that continues into Clifton would make it rather easy to live in OTR, get to work, get most of your errands done, and have a very active nightlife without having a car. Certainly, a two worker household could get away with one car with no problem.

It is also just part of a larger solution. Caveat wants to poo-poo that, but the Eastern Corridor project is moving forward, including a light rail option from the East Side. Of course, if you fight every step in the project, it makes sense that it will be difficult to move the project along.

The "Eastern Corridor" rail project is a pipe dream of the highest order. It's been talked about for a decade with no real action or funding plan.

The problem with all these "future improvements" or plans is that they never have funding components attached. They're wishes and wind explained with a hand wave and an assurance that the money will come from somewhere. That's followed by the inevitable shock when real budget items (cops, firefighters, potholes, etc ) take priority.

xu82
11-16-2013, 05:13 PM
First, I have to say I don't know squat about the streetcar other than what I have read here. So naturally I felt compelled to chime in. I have a bit of experience with systems both bigger and smaller than the streetcar. I live in Atlanta and sometimes it's nice (maybe convenient is a better description) to take MARTA from Buckhead to the airport, and a lot of people take it daily to get to work. I don't know a single person who does not own a car because it exists. I also get to Hilton Head a lot (used to live there). They have a trolley in Sea Pines that will get you almost anywhere you would want to go. It's awesome and allows for the extra beverage at the beach bar. I wish they had it when I lived there!

The real question seems to be whether the value is equal to or greater than the cost. It's a very visible project so it may be subject to more scrutiny than your typical government waste. I think it would be a great amenity and (while I may be wrong) the only downside appears to be the cost. It's not "the answer", but it's a part of the puzzle. During my years there downtown had little to offer. I was back for a Reds game last year and the KY side seemed more alive than downtown. An investment in creating a thriving downtown is a wise move, if done correctly, but I have no idea if this is this is money spent wisely. Seems like a good move, but is it a wise investment? There are a few thoughts from a guy who knows almost NOTHING about this, but felt the urge to waste a minute of your time.

(There's also the related issue of the obesity epidemic and the wisdom of providing a ride to people too fat and lazy to walk a few blocks to go out to eat, but that's for another time.)

xeus
11-16-2013, 07:19 PM
You know, when you have to make little potshots at the project it makes your argument seem weaker. That's a Thor tactic. You're better than that.

I agree that my potshot was really funny, and I totally understand why this was the best comeback you could come up with.

Kahns Krazy
11-17-2013, 07:30 AM
For the life of me, I can't figure out why the Streetcar is such a lighting rod. Why does one $100 million project draw such fire, but another just chugs right along. The Western Hills Viaduct project is projected at $200 million for just over half a mile . The Kennedy connector project is estimated at $35 million for a stretch of road that is about 2000 feet long. All of the same arguments that are used against the streetcar are equally valid for any of these projects - economic benefits are unproven, the use and benefit goes to a small percentage of the population, short route, etc. Why are so many people so vocal about one project?

Can anyone explain this?

xeus
11-17-2013, 08:59 AM
Can anyone explain this?

Are you serious?

PM Thor
11-17-2013, 02:03 PM
I agree that my potshot was really funny, and I totally understand why this was the best comeback you could come up with.

HEY! What did I do? Keep your petty infighting amongst yourselves!

I know I'm going to get slammed for this, but for a viable transportation system that won't cost hundreds of millions of dollars...dedicated and separated bike lanes make communities much more attractive for development. It's been proven throughout the country that dedicated bicycle lanes encourage local business expansion at a relatively small amount of investment. Wasson Way would be a great leap forward and it was just announced that Central Parkway will be transformed to having a dedicated bike lane from downtown all the way to Ludlow and back (at a cost of $500,000, paid in a federal grant). It will link downtown to an easier route into Clifton while separating the bicyclists from traffic by a physical barrier.

People constantly talk about "alternate" forms of transportation, and I am obviously biased, but I think these are very positive endeavors.

LadyMuskie
11-17-2013, 07:52 PM
For the life of me, I can't figure out why the Streetcar is such a lighting rod. Why does one $100 million project draw such fire, but another just chugs right along. The Western Hills Viaduct project is projected at $200 million for just over half a mile . The Kennedy connector project is estimated at $35 million for a stretch of road that is about 2000 feet long. All of the same arguments that are used against the streetcar are equally valid for any of these projects - economic benefits are unproven, the use and benefit goes to a small percentage of the population, short route, etc. Why are so many people so vocal about one project?

You're not a stupid person, so I know you already know this, but I'll play along.

The reason the WH Viaduct is worthy of the funds needed to repair it is that it currently moves and will continue to move far more people from the west side of Cincinnati to I-75 and then on to downtown and eastern suburbs than the trolley can ever hope to move. The Viaduct, which is a major artery to and over 75, has needed to be replaced and/or repaired since I was at X a dozen years ago. The viaduct has been crumbling, and if this country made a serious effort to keep up on infrastructure instead of waiting until it is in major amounts of disrepair, it wouldn't cost nearly as much. Nevertheless, despite the disdain for westsiders that the rest of Hamilton County and Cincinnati have, we do deserve to have working roadways that aren't under such stress that they may collapse. The Viaduct moves traffic and people from Price Hill, Westwood, Bridgetown, Miami Heights, Cleves, Western Hills, Sayler Park, Delhi, Covedale, Dent, Mack, North Bend and other areas. The trolley will only move people from downtown and OTR.

Additionally, since the viaduct has been in place for several decades, the economic benefits are not unproven. Semi-trucks, school buses, delivery trucks, and other service vehicles use the Viaduct - delivering goods and services all over. The moving of goods and services will never happen on the trolley at the same rate - unless we're counting the delightful individuals who currently use Government Square as their own private illegal drug store and can now hustle those drugs on the trolley! Without roadways to move semis and other delivery type trucks, we won't be able to move product around for sale and purchase. This use and benefit alone serves a much higher percentage of the population than the trolley could ever hope to serve.

As for the length of the route, it is not the size that matters, but how it is used. The trolley loop goes nowhere of any significance. One could (and some have) easily walk the loop with no problem if one lived in OTR and worked in downtown (which are the only people, again, who will use the trolley since it goes nowhere!) If you live in Westwood, for instance, you could take Queen City Avenue to the viaduct which would then allow you to exit onto Northbound or Southbound 75 and achieve your desired destination. You could not easily walk that route.

The first and most vocal complaint most people have about the westside is that there is not ease of access to major interstates as there is on the eastside. This is true. The viaduct is one of those spots, however, that does allow for major amounts of traffic to flow to and from the westside (and there are people over here to who like to go places other than Price Hill Chili or Elder). I used to take Queen City Avenue to the viaduct to get on 75 daily. It was bumper to bumper traffic every single morning.

I can't speak intelligently on the Kennedy Connector because I'm not as familiar with that area of town. However, if you believe that a trolley that runs from Clifton to downtown is going to make people give up their cars, you're just plain wrong. Surveys have shown that people in this area love their automobiles and don't want to part with them. Will some people give up their cars? Maybe, but most won't. You're also making the assumption that the only place people would need to go, for example, is downtown. Or that employees of pill hill will all live in OTR or downtown. If the trolley is just for entertainment value and to shuttle random people to a dinner at Arnold's from Clifton, then the cost is significantly too high!

I have yet to see any certifiable facts that show that the trolley will enhance the entire area by moving gross amounts of people consistently. The fact is, that nothing yet has proven that this boondoggle will do anything more than cost the residents of Cincinnati millions of dollars and be nothing more than a shuttle that will move hipsters from OTR to downtown and back again. Those hipsters will eventually grow up, get married and move to a suburb because raising a family in the inner city is not as fun as it sounds for obvious reasons. Anyone with any modicum of sense is not going to drive downtown from Mason, Milford, Anderson, Western Hills or elsewhere, pay to park their cars at Fountain Square, maneuver around the element that hangs out on Government Square, and then ride a trolley to OTR. On the other hand, people from these areas will use the WH Viaduct and the Kennedy Connector to get around because these roads will provide them a route directly to their destinations.

Caveat
11-17-2013, 08:01 PM
Can anyone explain this?

Neither of the projects you mentioned comes with a tax bill of $4m as operating costs in perpetuity.

Porkopolis
11-18-2013, 06:35 AM
As for the length of the route, it is not the size that matters, but how it is used.
My inner 12 year old is still giggling about this line.

Kahns Krazy
11-18-2013, 08:13 AM
You're not a stupid person, so I know you already know this, but I'll play along.

The reason the WH Viaduct is worthy of the funds needed to repair it is that it currently moves and will continue to move far more people from the west side of Cincinnati to I-75 and then on to downtown and eastern suburbs than the trolley can ever hope to move. .

How is the existance of the viaduct currently evidence that without it, there would be unfavorable economic impact? Enhance other routes and bulldoze the thing. There are alternate ways to move people other than double deck long span bridges. It is probably the least efficient piece of road in Cincinnati in terms of cost. Because it's there already, we should sink $200 million into it with no question?

I also notice that you skipped over the MLK interchange project, reasonably close in cost to the streetcar. All of the supporting economic work for that project is totally theoretical. The document first starts by noting that the uptown area is experiencing strong job growth. Something like 5,000 net new jobs in the last 10 years. Then it goes on to claim that without a new MLK interchange, we will lose 1,500 of those jobs, and are at risk of losing another 1,500. The study then goes on to claim the retention of those existing jobs as economic benefit from putting in the MLK interchange. Huh? Jobs that were recently added without an interchange are somehow an economic benefit of adding the interchange? The evidence is that this will cost the taxpayers millions of dollars that will do nothing more than move people from the exit they currently take to an exit 3/4 of a mile down the road. All of the economic benefit centers around an "if you build it, they will come" assumption, just like the Kennedy Connector, and just like the streetcar. The difference is that there is and has been a neighborhood in the streetcar route. There are existing structures ready to be rehabbed and existing shopping and cultural centers that can be enhanced. Neither the Kennedy Connector or the MLK interchange can make that claim.

I listen to people opposed to the streetcar and I hear the "you can't prove the benefit" argument. I have agreed over and over that there is no proof, only studies and successful implementations in other cities. I just don't get why the anti-streetcar crowd isn't as vocal about these other projects that use the same expert studies to support their investment.

Caveat
11-18-2013, 10:14 AM
We should give scrutiny to every attempt to spend large amounts of taxpayer money on projects.

xujigga
11-18-2013, 11:44 AM
The reason the WH Viaduct is worthy of the funds needed to repair it is that it currently moves and will continue to move far more people from the west side of Cincinnati to I-75 and then on to downtown and eastern suburbs than the trolley can ever hope to move. The Viaduct, which is a major artery to and over 75, has needed to be replaced and/or repaired since I was at X a dozen years ago. The viaduct has been crumbling, and if this country made a serious effort to keep up on infrastructure instead of waiting until it is in major amounts of disrepair, it wouldn't cost nearly as much. Nevertheless, despite the disdain for westsiders that the rest of Hamilton County and Cincinnati have, we do deserve to have working roadways that aren't under such stress that they may collapse. The Viaduct moves traffic and people from Price Hill, Westwood, Bridgetown, Miami Heights, Cleves, Western Hills, Sayler Park, Delhi, Covedale, Dent, Mack, North Bend and other areas. The trolley will only move people from downtown and OTR.



If you are going to argue that the streetcar only physically connects downtown and OTR then shouldn't your argument for the viaduct also only list the places that are physically connected? If you want to compare apples to apples it seems you should compare OTR/Downtown to Fairmont/Camp Washington.

Just wondered how the entire West Side is considered to be benefiting from the viaduct but the people who live in Clifton, Hyde Park, Colombia Tusculum, Dent, wherever who are going to be using the streetcar do not count in the equation.

Kahns Krazy
11-18-2013, 12:37 PM
Definitely.

I think that might be part of what many city residents don't like about the Streetcar. People in neighborhoods like Westwood, Price Hill, Mt. Washington (to a lesser degree) that have generally been the victims of attempts at gentrification of downtown and OTR. Their neighborhoods have been in steady, rapid, decline for 30 or more years now as a result of increased section 8 housing. Rightly or wrongly many people in those neighborhoods associate the closing down of many of the housing projects in OTR and the subsequent spreading of Section 8 housing into their neighborhoods as the driver of their decline. They see this as the city dumping more money into revitalizing OTR while their neighborhoods suffer.

I don't believe there has been a material number of section 8 housing units removed from OTR. Can you cite sources? The large housing projects that were removed were in the West End, on the other side of Central Parkway. While the neighborhoods share a boundary, there is a huge difference in the two. Most of what has been redeveloped in OTR has been previously empty property. The number I saw recently was that 75% of the housing stock in OTR remains vacant. This tends to be one of those arguments that just isn't supported by the data.

The introduction of Section 8 housing into neighborhoods is a HUD initiative that is taking place regardless of the Streetcar. If that's what's turning people off on the streetcar, they should become better informed.

Kahns Krazy
11-18-2013, 12:38 PM
We should give scrutiny to every attempt to spend large amounts of taxpayer money on projects.

But we don't, so the question remains, why this one?

danaandvictory
11-18-2013, 12:43 PM
I was back for a Reds game last year and the KY side seemed more alive than downtown.

That's very difficult for me to believe, unless by downtown you mean the CBD to the exclusion of the Banks, Fountain Square, and OTR.

Seven Eighths
11-18-2013, 12:45 PM
Because he refuses to read the document I posted that debunks the myth that streetcars cause development -- tax abatements, building incentives, TIF districts, etc. are the catalysts for development. In Portland, they gave away BILLIONS (with a "B") in money to developers along the streetcar route and the entire area began to boom. When those incentives were removed, the streetcar alone provided little to no development increases.

It's interesting how these streetcar supporters refuse to acknowledge that growth in OTR is happening right this second without a single track in use. If the streetcar was this necessary component for growth, why are their businesses opening (and thriving) right now without it? Surely if the streetcar was necessary for growth, these restaurants and businesses would have waited until it was running to open to prevent losing money while they wait for the line to be completed.

And no, the CBD isn't the only driver of revenue in the city. Those of us who live in the city neighborhoods pay property taxes and earnings taxes. We deserve our roads paved and our neighborhoods kept clean and safe too -- if the hipsters who live in OTR need a trolley to save them from having to walk a few blocks, they should be more than willing to pass increased property taxes or an increased sales-tax zone in their community to help fund it.

What is the purpose of the streetcar? You get different answers from different people that support it. I don't see the need or purpose.

blobfan
11-18-2013, 12:48 PM
If you are going to argue that the streetcar only physically connects downtown and OTR then shouldn't your argument for the viaduct also only list the places that are physically connected? If you want to compare apples to apples it seems you should compare OTR/Downtown to Fairmont/Camp Washington.

Just wondered how the entire West Side is considered to be benefiting from the viaduct but the people who live in Clifton, Hyde Park, Colombia Tusculum, Dent, wherever who are going to be using the streetcar do not count in the equation.
What people from Clifton, Hyde Park, Columbia Tusculum and Dent are going to be using the streetcar? They'll have to bring their cars either to downtown or Findlay Market to pick up the trolley. With the exception of special events, how often are they going to ride it? It'll be like the Underground Railroad Freedom Center: you go once for curiosity then again only for group events or when you are bringing out of towners. Unless you live along the trolley line, why would you take it every day when it's barely faster than walking and parking on one end is free and $3 at the other? You want to count all those people equally to the thousands that use the connectors daily?

blobfan
11-18-2013, 12:51 PM
But we don't, so the question remains, why this one?

Well, for starters the connecters are part of a larger system or roads and interstates where the streetcar is a mostly isolated, limited use circulator with only vague plans related to future sections. Even most proponents can't defend phase 1 and focus mainly on Phase 2 which I don't think has either financing or a ground-breaking estimate. Add to that the number of trips our former Mayor and many counsel members took at taxpayer expense supposedly to discuss streetcar planning and you underscore the image of the streetcar as a vanity project.

XU 87
11-18-2013, 12:52 PM
How is the existance of the viaduct currently evidence that without it, there would be unfavorable economic impact? Enhance other routes and bulldoze the thing. There are alternate ways to move people other than double deck long span bridges. It is probably the least efficient piece of road in Cincinnati in terms of cost. Because it's there already, we should sink $200 million into it with no question?



I'm not a westsider, but I believe The Viaduct is connected to the start/end, depeending on which you're travelling, of Queen City Ave, Glenway and Harrison Road. So unless you can figure out some way to efficiently connect those three roads to some other road, which can then be connected to I-75, then we are stuck with the Viaduct. Maybe they can rebuild without the bridge, but I think the Bridge also goes over a busy railroad track and I-75 and a few other things. So I'm guessing a non-bridge rebuild is not feasible.

blobfan
11-18-2013, 12:54 PM
I'm not a westsider, but I believe The Viaduct is connected to the start/end, depeending on which you're travelling, of Queen City Ave, Glenway and Harrison Road. So unless you can figure out some way to efficiently connect those three roads to some other road, which can then be connected to I-75, then we are stuck with the Viaduct. Maybe they can rebuild without the bridge, but I think the Bridge also goes over a busy railroad track and I-75 and a few other things. So I'm guessing a non-bridge rebuild is not feasible.

And I remember reading a couple of those studies and think they picked the most cost-effective, longest lasting option. MLK I've only just started hearing about and I thought the Feds had a large stake in the Kennedy Connector project, but I could be wrong. But don't listen to me because I obviously don't pay attention to other projects, as evidenced by the fact that I didn't post about them in a thread polling people's opinions on the streetcar. I also didn't post about how ridiculous I think our expenditures are for public schools given the crappy graduation rates, etc. I guess I have to lay out all my objections to government waste to be credible. Otherwise my argument is completely flawed.

paulxu
11-18-2013, 12:55 PM
Fortunately I don't know anything about Cincinnati's streetcar/trolley, and/or the subway system that never developed.

But it is interesting to wonder what critical mass you need for an effective subway. Washington, LA and Atlanta have all developed them (I think) in the last 30 years or so. It would be something if Cincinnati had a system. One line up 75 to the beltway, one up 71, one out Columbia Pkwy, one across to Western Hills and one or two lines into Northern KY. All meeting down town to funnel daily commuter, sporting events, concerts, etc. Oh well.

boozehound
11-18-2013, 12:56 PM
If you are going to argue that the streetcar only physically connects downtown and OTR then shouldn't your argument for the viaduct also only list the places that are physically connected? If you want to compare apples to apples it seems you should compare OTR/Downtown to Fairmont/Camp Washington.

Just wondered how the entire West Side is considered to be benefiting from the viaduct but the people who live in Clifton, Hyde Park, Colombia Tusculum, Dent, wherever who are going to be using the streetcar do not count in the equation.

The Western Hills Viaduct is a major artery that many, many people take every day to get to and from their jobs etc. As the situation stands there are very few other ways to get from the West Side to downtown. Look at a map. The Western Hills viaduct crosses a large railroad switchyard that runs from Camp Washington (where I-74 hits I-75) to the river. There are only a few ways to get across that switchyard as it is: The Hopple Street Viaduct, The Western Hills Viaduct, the 8th Street Viaduct, and the 6th Viaduct. They didn't build those because they thought bridges looked cool. They built them because there was (and still is) a wide expanse of railroad tracks that they had to get across somehow.

You could make a much better argument about the necessity of the Kennedy connector or the MLK interchange.

The proposed Streetcar services a relatively small geographic area that is predominantly walkable. It is not comparable to a major roadway. That doesn't mean that it can't be a worthy use of funds, but comparing it to major traffic arteries is a stretch at best.

XU 87
11-18-2013, 12:58 PM
But we don't, so the question remains, why this one?

Because this one is a novelty, not a necessity, which benefits a very, very small percentage of city residents and is designed to lose money, year after year.

The Western Hills Viaduct is a necessity where people need it to get to and from the west side of town. The streetcar is something nice to have but its costs outweigh any benefits it might have. In addition, the resources spent on the Streetcar can be better used elsewhere to benefit a larger percentage of the population.

Kahns Krazy
11-18-2013, 12:58 PM
HEY! What did I do? Keep your petty infighting amongst yourselves!

I know I'm going to get slammed for this, but for a viable transportation system that won't cost hundreds of millions of dollars...dedicated and separated bike lanes make communities much more attractive for development. It's been proven throughout the country that dedicated bicycle lanes encourage local business expansion at a relatively small amount of investment. Wasson Way would be a great leap forward and it was just announced that Central Parkway will be transformed to having a dedicated bike lane from downtown all the way to Ludlow and back (at a cost of $500,000, paid in a federal grant). It will link downtown to an easier route into Clifton while separating the bicyclists from traffic by a physical barrier.

People constantly talk about "alternate" forms of transportation, and I am obviously biased, but I think these are very positive endeavors.


I don't bike at all. I am very pro-bike lane where it is possible. I'm not thrilled when it takes out existing parking, especially like the Eastern Avenue redesign that crushed Maribelle's parking and forced them to acquire a parking lot, but in areas that it can work, I really like mixing bike paths with on the street bike lanes. I think it's cool that you can get from Loveland to downtown with almost none of it on the road.

boozehound
11-18-2013, 01:06 PM
I don't believe there has been a material number of section 8 housing units removed from OTR. Can you cite sources? The large housing projects that were removed were in the West End, on the other side of Central Parkway. While the neighborhoods share a boundary, there is a huge difference in the two. Most of what has been redeveloped in OTR has been previously empty property. The number I saw recently was that 75% of the housing stock in OTR remains vacant. This tends to be one of those arguments that just isn't supported by the data.

The introduction of Section 8 housing into neighborhoods is a HUD initiative that is taking place regardless of the Streetcar. If that's what's turning people off on the streetcar, they should become better informed.

That may be true, but it doesn't change the perception people have, and perception has at least as much influence on voting as facts do. I would also argue that most people in areas like Westwood, etc. don't draw a distinction between OTR and the West End. They may be very different neighborhoods, but I would be surprised if many people could clearly explain the boundaries of the 2 areas and/or the difference between the 2.

Most people want investment in their neighborhoods. This is doubly true for people in city neighborhoods that are struggling, like many (most?) City of Cincinnati neighborhoods are. If I'm sitting in Pleasant Ridge or Westwood and watching property values skyrocket in OTR while crime is skyrocketing in my neighborhood, I'm wondering why the need that type of investment in a Streetcar, and when my neighborhood is going to get some investment.

I'm not saying that they are right, but I understand why the issue is divisive.

XU 87
11-18-2013, 01:15 PM
I don't bike at all. I am very pro-bike lane where it is possible. I'm not thrilled when it takes out existing parking, especially like the Eastern Avenue redesign that crushed Maribelle's parking and forced them to acquire a parking lot, but in areas that it can work, I really like mixing bike paths with on the street bike lanes. I think it's cool that you can get from Loveland to downtown with almost none of it on the road.

I think the bike path on Eastern is a TERRIBLE idea. We used to have 2 lanes of traffic during rush hour, now we have 1. And now traffic is backed up on Eastern (or Riverside as it's now called). I can say that I've never seen a biker using the bike lane during rush hour. Another touchy feely idea to benefit a few at the expense of the vast majority.

PM Thor
11-18-2013, 01:18 PM
I am a staunch advocate for bike lanes...when they are done correctly. I think the Eastern corridor was a bit botched without enough input from certain businesses.

Before Quinlivan was kicked from Council she was pushing HARD for a bike lane through Mt. Lookout square all the way down Delta. I think it's a horrible idea to limit traffic through Mt. Lookout square to one lane, and that is what would have happened. Terrible idea. You can't just throw down some paint on some of these Cincy streets and call them bike lanes, it's got to be done more intelligently. That's why I am in favor of protected (see, separate) bike lanes. They promote bike use way more than just lined bike lanes because novice and unsure bikers get intimidated riding with auto traffic, and, lets be honest, many drivers "float" when in their lanes. Also, the aesthetic factor cannot be overlooked either. If separated with greenery or landscaping, it's much more inviting for the area.

I am geeked that Cincy has it's first protected bike lane coming, and hope to see more of it in the near future. And Wasson Way would be a great, great addition.

XU 87
11-18-2013, 01:22 PM
I also didn't post about how ridiculous I think our expenditures are for public schools given the crappy graduation rates, etc. I guess I have to lay out all my objections to government waste to be credible. Otherwise my argument is completely flawed.

You obviously don't realize that spending more money on schools, no matter how much and on what programs, always, without exception, results in better schools. And to suggest otherwise means that you are anti-kid and anti-public schools and a host of other things that cannot be mentioned on a public forum.

Caveat
11-18-2013, 01:29 PM
But we don't, so the question remains, why this one?

Because, for the most part, you can look at other transportation projects and discern a transportation need that is being filled -- be it that an area is too congested and the proposed project will alleviate congestion or that the existing road is falling into disrepair and needs to be replaced for long-term safety reasons.

The streetcar serves no TRANSPORTATION need. It covers a walkable area that is already serviced by other forms of mass transit. That leaves only two reasons to build it:

1. As something that will eventually serve a transportation need when expanded; and/or
2. As a driver of investment in the area where it runs.

Point #1 is moot -- the "expansion" isn't on the table right now and may never come to the table. If there was a real plan to build extensions (complete with real plans for funding, real plans for ridership estimates, and real timetables), it would be a different story. But, the reality is that the streetcar being proposed TODAY is merely the loop in the CBD and OTR. So, you can throw #1 out.

That leaves #2, which is the source of the scrutiny. The claim is that other streetcar systems (particularly Portland) have led to investment and growth in the areas they serve, but as you can see from the study I posted on here, the investment in Portland was driven primarily by heavy tax subsidies, investment credits, and public/private partnerships to redevelop the area the streetcar was servicing (sound familiar?). When factoring in the streetcar's return on investment, those tax credits are rarely part of the calculus, and the question is rarely asked "would re-development have occurred anyway even without the streetcar?"

We're getting an answer to that question right now -- development in OTR is booming because of tax incentives, abatements, and credits before the first car has touched rail. Businesses are flocking to the area, condos and apartments are being snatched up as quickly as buildings can be rehabbed, and the entire area is coming alive all without the streetcar. Is there a suggestion, somehow, that none of this would have happened -- that all those restaurants and shops would have never moved to OTR if it wasn't for the planned streetcar or that they'll now move because the streetcar isn't happening? Of course that's nonsense -- they'll stay as long as they're making money in the area and it is profitable for them to remain.

The project is ripe for questioning because the project's entire justification is a theory. When you find other projects that have a merely theoretical or speculative purpose, let me know, and we'll question the hell out of that too.

Juice
11-18-2013, 01:39 PM
I think the bike path on Eastern is a TERRIBLE idea. We used to have 2 lanes of traffic during rush hour, now we have 1. And now traffic is backed up on Eastern (or Riverside as it's now called). I can say that I've never seen a biker using the bike lane during rush hour. Another touchy feely idea to benefit a few at the expense of the vast majority.

That bike lane has murdered the commute in the mornings and afternoons for people living on the eastside trying to get downtown for work.

Caveat
11-18-2013, 01:53 PM
That bike lane has murdered the commute in the mornings and afternoons for people living on the eastside trying to get downtown for work.

When I used to drive that route to work every day (back when the 275 bridge was "under inspection" and down to 1 lane), I used to dream about just running cyclists over.

So glad I don't make that commute any longer.

xujigga
11-18-2013, 03:30 PM
Because this one is a novelty, not a necessity, which benefits a very, very small percentage of city residents and is designed to lose money, year after year.


How much income is the Kennedy connector designed to earn every year?

What about the MLK interchange?

Not sure why people think rail projects need to make money to be justified but road projects are somehow exempt from this requirement.

Caveat
11-18-2013, 03:42 PM
How much income is the Kennedy connector designed to earn every year?

What about the MLK interchange?

Not sure why people think rail projects need to make money to be justified but road projects are somehow exempt from this requirement.

Roads don't come with a yearly operating bill.

XU 87
11-18-2013, 03:43 PM
How much income is the Kennedy connector designed to earn every year?

What about the MLK interchange?

Not sure why people think rail projects need to make money to be justified but road projects are somehow exempt from this requirement.

I don't know what they want to do with the MLK or Kennedy exchanges. But I do know that MLK off 75 is probably one of the busiest exits/entrances on 75 as it leads to UC and all the hospitals. UC is the largest employer in the area and the hospitals also provided thousands of jobs and both obviously serve thousands of other people. So having an efficient way to get there is a necessity.

You can already drive to Findlay Market. There's parking there. You don't need a streetcar to get there.

There's a big difference between a major road that serves multiple businesses and a street car that travels in one small section of the city, particularly in a downtown where everything is walkable.

Trying to compare the streetcar to Western Hills Viaduct or the MLK connection or some other major and very busy road is not one of your better arguments.

Mack Attack
11-18-2013, 04:05 PM
Roads don't come with a yearly operating bill.

You don't think roads have operating expenses? Do they somehow magically fill pot holes themselves?

Kahns Krazy
11-18-2013, 04:29 PM
The project is ripe for questioning because the project's entire justification is a theory. When you find other projects that have a merely theoretical or speculative purpose, let me know, and we'll question the hell out of that too.

You clearly have not read the economic impact study done to support the funding of the MLK interchange. It is 100% theoretical and speculative. It has to be, since the thing doesn't exist yet.

Kahns Krazy
11-18-2013, 04:30 PM
You don't think roads have operating expenses? Do they somehow magically fill pot holes themselves?

And public service costs for accidents, repairs, etc. Salt and plowing. Painting, resurfacing, curb repair, street sweeping. All free....

LadyMuskie
11-18-2013, 04:34 PM
What people from Clifton, Hyde Park, Columbia Tusculum and Dent are going to be using the streetcar? They'll have to bring their cars either to downtown or Findlay Market to pick up the trolley. With the exception of special events, how often are they going to ride it? It'll be like the Underground Railroad Freedom Center: you go once for curiosity then again only for group events or when you are bringing out of towners. Unless you live along the trolley line, why would you take it every day when it's barely faster than walking and parking on one end is free and $3 at the other? You want to count all those people equally to the thousands that use the connectors daily?


Well, for starters the connecters are part of a larger system or roads and interstates where the streetcar is a mostly isolated, limited use circulator with only vague plans related to future sections. Even most proponents can't defend phase 1 and focus mainly on Phase 2 which I don't think has either financing or a ground-breaking estimate. Add to that the number of trips our former Mayor and many counsel members took at taxpayer expense supposedly to discuss streetcar planning and you underscore the image of the streetcar as a vanity project.


I'm not a westsider, but I believe The Viaduct is connected to the start/end, depeending on which you're travelling, of Queen City Ave, Glenway and Harrison Road. So unless you can figure out some way to efficiently connect those three roads to some other road, which can then be connected to I-75, then we are stuck with the Viaduct. Maybe they can rebuild without the bridge, but I think the Bridge also goes over a busy railroad track and I-75 and a few other things. So I'm guessing a non-bridge rebuild is not feasible.


And I remember reading a couple of those studies and think they picked the most cost-effective, longest lasting option. MLK I've only just started hearing about and I thought the Feds had a large stake in the Kennedy Connector project, but I could be wrong. But don't listen to me because I obviously don't pay attention to other projects, as evidenced by the fact that I didn't post about them in a thread polling people's opinions on the streetcar. I also didn't post about how ridiculous I think our expenditures are for public schools given the crappy graduation rates, etc. I guess I have to lay out all my objections to government waste to be credible. Otherwise my argument is completely flawed.


The Western Hills Viaduct is a major artery that many, many people take every day to get to and from their jobs etc. As the situation stands there are very few other ways to get from the West Side to downtown. Look at a map. The Western Hills viaduct crosses a large railroad switchyard that runs from Camp Washington (where I-74 hits I-75) to the river. There are only a few ways to get across that switchyard as it is: The Hopple Street Viaduct, The Western Hills Viaduct, the 8th Street Viaduct, and the 6th Viaduct. They didn't build those because they thought bridges looked cool. They built them because there was (and still is) a wide expanse of railroad tracks that they had to get across somehow.

You could make a much better argument about the necessity of the Kennedy connector or the MLK interchange.

The proposed Streetcar services a relatively small geographic area that is predominantly walkable. It is not comparable to a major roadway. That doesn't mean that it can't be a worthy use of funds, but comparing it to major traffic arteries is a stretch at best.

I completely agree with all of this!

sirthought
11-18-2013, 04:35 PM
And public service costs for accidents, repairs, etc. Salt and plowing. Painting, resurfacing, curb repair, street sweeping. All free....

All the traffic engineering, consultant studies for right-of-way flow, and safety studies: TOTALLY FREE!

And then those actions that actually impact certain safety situations, like how close trees and brush are trimmed near roads: You guessed it, free.

sirthought
11-18-2013, 05:14 PM
http://cdn.theatlantic.com/newsroom/img/posts/tumblr_mvqe8gUMzP1qzft56o1_500.gif

LadyMuskie
11-18-2013, 05:40 PM
What a great find! Is that from the early 80s or late 70s? Some of those car companies aren't even around anymore and I had no idea so many people drive with their legs crossed. I also really love how it applies to the Cincinnati trolley being debated today! If nothing else, at least the trolley itself resembles the same one that used to be on Cincinnati streets, which was found unusable and more trouble than it was worth, and which you can visit in the History Museum at Union Terminal in the 1940's exhibit! Bravo! Way to add to the discussion with something useful!

xeus
11-18-2013, 08:36 PM
Trying to compare the streetcar to Western Hills Viaduct or the MLK connection or some other major and very busy road is not one of your better arguments.

It occurred to me that the best comparison to the streetcar is The Banshee, the newest ride at Kings Island. The Banshee (http://https://www.visitkingsisland.com/banshee/the-ride) and Streetcar compare as follows:

Speed: Banshee tops out at 68 mph. Streetcar averages 6.7 mph. Advantage Banshee.

Convenience: Banshee - have to drive to Mason to ride it. Streetcar - have to DRIVE to OTR to ride it. Pick 'em.

Style: Banshee is an inverted roller coaster with Curved Drop, Dive Loop, Looping interacting with the lift, Zero-G-Roll, Batwing, Outside Loop, Spiral, In-Line-Roll, and Carousel. Streetcar has no loops, rolls, or spirals. Advantage Banshee.

Inspiration: The Banshee is the first female-inspired thrill ride at Kings Island. The Streetcar is the first Mallory-inspired thrill ride through OTR. Advantage Banshee.

Cost: Banshee - $24 million. Streetcar - $148 million, for the "first phase". Advantage Banshee.

In conclusion, it is clear that this city is on the wrong track. (Pun intended.)

Lamont Sanford
11-18-2013, 08:57 PM
Any truth to the rumor that Mark Mallory was able to secure one free order of queso and chips from Bakersfield for riders of his little trolley?

If true...advantage trolley.

Caveat
11-19-2013, 12:12 AM
You don't think roads have operating expenses? Do they somehow magically fill pot holes themselves?

Roads have upkeep -- but so do streetcar lines. You have to keep the rails in good shape, upkeep on the road underneath the streetcar lines as well. Streetcar lines, in addition to upkeep, also require salaries for operators, salaries for maintenance workers on cars, power and electricity costs for running the system, etc.

All for what? A walkable 3 mile loop of track. At least the "Metro Moves" plan was a big-dream / transformative type of program. If you're going to fail, fail with a great idea.

Kahns Krazy
11-19-2013, 08:11 AM
I find it interesting that people act like a 3.6 mile loop (1.8 each way) is "walkable". When was the last time anyone walked 1.8 miles to go do dinner or out for drinks or to do some shopping? If you're sitting at BW's in Rookwood, does Zips seem walkable (1.8 mi)? What about the Cintas (also 1.8mi). Cintas to O'Bryons (1.8 mi)? Anyone? Nippert Stadium to Gateway Quarter (1.7mi)? Hell, I know people that are complaining about the walk from the far side of the parking lot at the new Rookwood exchange to get to the dining options there. Walkable my ass.

Most people I know that go to the Casino after a game take a cab, and that's less than 3/4 of a mile. I don't know of anyone that walks to the Gateway Quarter after a game or work (1 mi from the Stadium). 1.8 miles isn't "walkable", unless you're doing it for exercise.

Charlesbt4
11-19-2013, 08:18 AM
I find it interesting that people act like a 3.6 mile loop (1.8 each way) is "walkable". When was the last time anyone walked 1.8 miles to go do dinner or out for drinks or to do some shopping? If you're sitting at BW's in Rookwood, does Zips seem walkable (1.8 mi)? What about the Cintas (also 1.8mi). Cintas to O'Bryons (1.8 mi)? Anyone? Nippert Stadium to Gateway Quarter (1.7mi)? Hell, I know people that are complaining about the walk from the far side of the parking lot at the new Rookwood exchange to get to the dining options there. Walkable my ass.

Most people I know that go to the Casino after a game take a cab, and that's less than 3/4 of a mile. I don't know of anyone that walks to the Gateway Quarter after a game or work (1 mi from the Stadium). 1.8 miles isn't "walkable", unless you're doing it for exercise.

Agreed. Hell, the average American walks only about 2.5 miles a day. This isn't Europe.

Caveat
11-19-2013, 09:32 AM
How often will people need to walk the complete loop? More than likely, you're talking about people who need to get from, say, the Gateway Corridor or Washington Park to Fountain Square or the Banks or from the Banks to the Casino.

Those are all easily walkable for anyone with any degree of fitness. I've done it numerous times -- going out in OTR after a Reds game or parking at fountain square and heading to the Banks.

XU 87
11-19-2013, 09:37 AM
I find it interesting that people act like a 3.6 mile loop (1.8 each way) is "walkable". When was the last time anyone walked 1.8 miles to go do dinner or out for drinks or to do some shopping? If you're sitting at BW's in Rookwood, does Zips seem walkable (1.8 mi)? What about the Cintas (also 1.8mi). Cintas to O'Bryons (1.8 mi)? Anyone? Nippert Stadium to Gateway Quarter (1.7mi)? Hell, I know people that are complaining about the walk from the far side of the parking lot at the new Rookwood exchange to get to the dining options there. Walkable my ass.

Most people I know that go to the Casino after a game take a cab, and that's less than 3/4 of a mile. I don't know of anyone that walks to the Gateway Quarter after a game or work (1 mi from the Stadium). 1.8 miles isn't "walkable", unless you're doing it for exercise.

Everything downtown is walkable. But I would agree that most people aren't going to walk from downtown to Findlay Market.

Instead of a trolley, why can't they just have something that looks like a trolley but runs on gasoline run this route?

P.S. Cranley must read this board. He has just proposed my idea of having soemthing that looks like a trolley, but runs on gasoline, operate the trolley route. Smart guy.

Kahns Krazy
11-19-2013, 11:50 AM
How often will people need to walk the complete loop? More than likely, you're talking about people who need to get from, say, the Gateway Corridor or Washington Park to Fountain Square or the Banks or from the Banks to the Casino.

Those are all easily walkable for anyone with any degree of fitness. I've done it numerous times -- going out in OTR after a Reds game or parking at fountain square and heading to the Banks.

I do not expect anyone to ever ride from Fountain square to the banks. Stephen Hawking can walk that route. Plus, why the hell would you do that? One of the country's largest parking garages is under the banks. If you're going from the Banks to the casino, where are you going after that?

If you are really walking from GABP to OTR to go out after a game, you are in the tiny tiny minority.

GoMuskies
11-19-2013, 11:56 AM
1.8 miles isn't walkable? Damn, we're a fat country.

I just MaqQuested the route from Fenway to my old apartment in Boston's South End. It was 1.76 miles and a very easy walk that I made after every Red Sox game I attended. And I'm not skinny.

Kahns Krazy
11-19-2013, 12:13 PM
Everything downtown is walkable. But I would agree that most people aren't going to walk from downtown to Findlay Market.

Instead of a trolley, why can't they just have something that looks like a trolley but runs on gasoline run this route?

P.S. Cranley must read this board. He has just proposed my idea of having soemthing that looks like a trolley, but runs on gasoline, operate the trolley route. Smart guy.

Because this city has a long history of changing their mind. Bus routes change all the time. Speculative redevopment will not follow a bus route. That's why Cranley wants to do it. He will put a shitty bus line out there, wait 6-12 months and say "see, nothing has changed, which proves I'm right" then shut the bus line down.

Caveat
11-19-2013, 12:13 PM
I do not expect anyone to ever ride from Fountain square to the banks. Stephen Hawking can walk that route. Plus, why the hell would you do that? One of the country's largest parking garages is under the banks.

If you are really walking from GABP to OTR to go out after a game, you are in the tiny tiny minority.

The Banks parking garage is, on average, 2-3x more expensive than any other garage downtown -- 3 hours at the Banks will run you roughly $10. You can park for half that much at fountain square. Reds gameday parking goes as high as $20, which is 4x more expensive than just about anywhere else downtown. The Banks garage is one of the biggest rip-offs in town and is a large part of why I don't spend a lot of time there (v. other places, like OTR or Mt. Adams) or choose to dine nearby. $10 is another appetizer or several extra drinks at places that don't fleece you for parking.

As for walking post-Reds? I see tons of people making that same walk (to OTR) on numerous Friday/Saturday nights after games. It's an incredibly easy walk and probably comparable to the streetcar when you factor in the time you spend waiting for a car and riding to your destination.

xujigga
11-19-2013, 12:22 PM
The Banks parking garage is, on average, 2-3x more expensive than any other garage downtown -- 3 hours at the Banks will run you roughly $10. You can park for half that much at fountain square. Reds gameday parking goes as high as $20, which is 4x more expensive than just about anywhere else downtown. The Banks garage is one of the biggest rip-offs in town and is a large part of why I don't spend a lot of time there (v. other places, like OTR or Mt. Adams) or choose to dine nearby. $10 is another appetizer or several extra drinks at places that don't fleece you for parking.

As for walking post-Reds? I see tons of people making that same walk (to OTR) on numerous Friday/Saturday nights after games. It's an incredibly easy walk and probably comparable to the streetcar when you factor in the time you spend waiting for a car and riding to your destination.

I guess your google must be broken so I will post the real Banks rates for you:

Hours & Rates

Hours: 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Daily rate: 1st hour – $3, 2nd hour – $5, 3rd hour – $7 Daily Max rate $9.

Event parking rates vary; call 513.946.8100 for more information.

Reds Game Day Parking:
$12.00 East Garage
$17.00 East Central Riverfront Garage
$12.00 West Central Riverfront Garage
$10.00 West lots

Bengals Game Day Parking:
$10.00 East Garage
$10.00 Broadway lot
$25.00 Central Riverfront Garage
$25.00 West lots

Monthly rate: $100 or $125 per month, call 513.946.8100 for details.

LadyMuskie
11-19-2013, 12:25 PM
Hmm . . .when I worked downtown I often had to walk from my building on Fourth Street between Walnut and Main to the Courthouse, the County Admin building, then to City Hall, and back to my office. I just google mapped that route and by foot it is 1.9 miles. Completely doable. I did it a couple of times a week, maybe more some weeks and less others. Was it a long walk? Sometimes - especially when it was very hot or very cold, but most of the time, it was very nice except for the aggressive panhandlers.

I wonder, though, how the argument moves from the trolley is necessary in order to save the City of Cincinnati from dying, to now it's necessary because 1.8 miles is far to far away to walk, and therefore we must provide the new residents of OTR with some way of getting to and from downtown because they deserve it.

RealDeal
11-19-2013, 12:51 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/02/travel/justin-bieber-great-wall-of-china/

There's a joke in there somewhere, I'm too busy right now.

XU 87
11-19-2013, 01:01 PM
Because this city has a long history of changing their mind. Bus routes change all the time. Speculative redevopment will not follow a bus route. That's why Cranley wants to do it. He will put a shitty bus line out there, wait 6-12 months and say "see, nothing has changed, which proves I'm right" then shut the bus line down.

So we need to spend over $150 million on a project that going into it will lose money so we can help a few speculative redevelopers who own property on the route? That sounds to me like we're spending a lot of money to benefit a very select and small group of people.

If the issue is getting people from the Banks to OTR, they can take the gas powered trolley. There used to be a bus that went around downtown for 10 cents but it shut down because no one used it.

Caveat
11-19-2013, 01:02 PM
I guess your google must be broken so I will post the real Banks rates for you:


I was accurate -- park 3 hours at the Banks it's going to cost you roughly $10.

I go to 15-20 Reds games per year, and I've never seen Reds parking for the rates they're posting. It's always posted at $20 on the "Special Event" sign.

Juice
11-19-2013, 01:05 PM
I find it interesting that people act like a 3.6 mile loop (1.8 each way) is "walkable". When was the last time anyone walked 1.8 miles to go do dinner or out for drinks or to do some shopping? If you're sitting at BW's in Rookwood, does Zips seem walkable (1.8 mi)? What about the Cintas (also 1.8mi). Cintas to O'Bryons (1.8 mi)? Anyone? Nippert Stadium to Gateway Quarter (1.7mi)? Hell, I know people that are complaining about the walk from the far side of the parking lot at the new Rookwood exchange to get to the dining options there. Walkable my ass.

Most people I know that go to the Casino after a game take a cab, and that's less than 3/4 of a mile. I don't know of anyone that walks to the Gateway Quarter after a game or work (1 mi from the Stadium). 1.8 miles isn't "walkable", unless you're doing it for exercise.

Saturday night I walked from OTR to the casino and then back to Race St. It's walkable.

LadyMuskie
11-19-2013, 01:43 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/02/travel/justin-bieber-great-wall-of-china/

There's a joke in there somewhere, I'm too busy right now.

I think we've just found jobs for all the panhandlers that are bothering the poor residents of 4th and 6th Street in downtown!

RoseyMuskie
11-19-2013, 03:38 PM
I was planning on withholding my comment on the topic, but couldn't resist.

I am one who supports the streetcar. I'm young and generally downtown once a weekend. Having public transportation between The Banks and OTR would be a tremendous amenity. I routinely walk from approximately 8th and Race out to OTR, or down to The Banks. But from Foutain Square to OTR, we oftentimes cab it, just depends on the weather. Anything farther, we definitely cab it. I also buy into the argument that Cincinnati needs to maintain its momentum to attract and retain young professionals.

But that takes me to my next point: I'm starting to understand the opposition's side. I live in Oakley, so I would only utilize the car about once a week, whereas the Western Hills Viaduct is utilized be many people 10 times a week. So who am I to criticize opponents of the car? I would use the streetcar purely for social purposes once a week vs. people who use roadways and other infrastructure on daily commutes. I commute to Fairfield each morning. I know anything that would improve my daily commute would be more advantageous than a street car.

Long story short, I think both sides have a valid case, but for selfish reasons (I'll be the first to admit that), I support the streetcar.

It truly is a case of luxury vs. need, in my opinion.

Caveat
11-19-2013, 04:03 PM
The only real compelling argument I can make for completing the streetcar is that it's just, generally, bad for business if newly elected officials feel like they can come in and pull the plug on something that's already under construction.

There are lots of government projects that are worthwhile endeavors, and most of them take beyond a single election cycle to complete. Once people feel comfortable just stopping and scuttling projects after election day simply because their opposition supported them, then what? Cities full of half-started / abandoned construction sites?

Kahns Krazy
11-19-2013, 07:40 PM
I had a meeting in the 1600 block of Vine tonight. The idea that any neighborhood in Cincinnati needs investment more than OTR or that all of OTR is doing "just fine" is laughable. Just because one block of Vine is doing well does not mean that the cancer has been cured. If anyone wants to walk those streets with me and explain how boarded up vacant buildings are a sign of a strong neighborhood development, I'd be happy to buy you some swisher sweets in the only store open north of Liberty.

xeus
11-19-2013, 08:18 PM
If anyone wants to walk those streets with me and explain how boarded up vacant buildings are a sign of a strong neighborhood development, I'd be happy to buy you some swisher sweets in the only store open north of Liberty.

I'd be happy to do that, as long as the walk isn't over 1.8 miles. But when we're done, let's also walk the streets of Westwood, Lower Price Hill, Bond Hill, and several other of the 52 neighborhoods. Then we can have a beer and discuss neighborhood development, gentrification, and other bold ideas. (I'll pass on the Swisher Sweets, thanks.)

Caveat
11-19-2013, 08:27 PM
I'd be happy to do that, as long as the walk isn't over 1.8 miles. But when we're done, let's also walk the streets of Westwood, Lower Price Hill, Bond Hill, and several other of the 52 neighborhoods. Then we can have a beer and discuss neighborhood development, gentrification, and other bold ideas. (I'll pass on the Swisher Sweets, thanks.)

Maybe we can build streetcars in all of these neighborhoods as well.

LadyMuskie
11-19-2013, 08:33 PM
You get a streetcar! And you get a streetcar! And you get a streetcar! EVERYBODY GETS A STREETCAR!!


http://gifsoup.com/view/671944/oprah-you-get-a-car.html

Kahns Krazy
11-19-2013, 08:41 PM
I'd be happy to do that, as long as the walk isn't over 1.8 miles. But when we're done, let's also walk the streets of Westwood, Lower Price Hill, Bond Hill, and several other of the 52 neighborhoods. Then we can have a beer and discuss neighborhood development, gentrification, and other bold ideas. (I'll pass on the Swisher Sweets, thanks.)

I'd be happy to. The investment opportunity in OTR exceeds any of those other neighborhoods, and OTR is quite frankly far more important to the city than any of them (all 52, not just the 3 you named). It's why I support the investment even though it isn't in my neighborhood.

Which night would you like to start? I have another meeting December 10th (which will address your scary "gentrification" word, too). Are you free, or are you all talk?

Kahns Krazy
11-19-2013, 08:43 PM
Maybe we can build streetcars in all of these neighborhoods as well.

That is a really stupid idea, but I find the hyperbole typical of the anti streetcar crowd. Don't have an intelligent discussion, just take it to an irrational argument. You're only a half step away from "people will die".

Kahns Krazy
11-19-2013, 09:17 PM
I was accurate -- park 3 hours at the Banks it's going to cost you roughly $10.

I go to 15-20 Reds games per year, and I've never seen Reds parking for the rates they're posting. It's always posted at $20 on the "Special Event" sign.

$7 is not really roughly $10, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that "3 hours" could easily mean "3+ hours", in which case you are looking at $9 in the banks vs. $5 at Fountain square on non-event nights. I guess when I am looking at going to the Banks for 3+ hours, I'm looking at a $50-$100 night out anyway, so I'm not terribly worried about the extra $4 to park in the connected lot.

There are multiple entry points to the Banks garage and on game days they are different prices. The entrance right across from the West entrance of the stadium (between Crave and Holy Grail) might be $20 on premium games, but the west entrances are less. There are temporary barriers set up inside he garage that break the garage up into zones.

LadyMuskie
11-19-2013, 09:32 PM
That is a really stupid idea, but I find the hyperbole typical of the anti streetcar crowd. Don't have an intelligent discussion, just take it to an irrational argument. You're only a half step away from "people will die".

This is hysterical! You're calling out the anti-streetcar crowd for being too hyperbolic! Yes! Because the streetcar pushers have been so thoughtful and mature in their arguments!

Things I've heard or read streetcar supporters say:

- Cincinnati will be a ghost town, literally no one will live here if there's no streetcar

- I believe that all the intelligent people have left the city

- If you don't support the streetcar you have no sense of modernity and probably don't use your brain

- The streetcar is the only way to make money in this city

- Without the streetcar every business downtown will dry up or move out of Cincinnati

- Findlay Market will cease to exist without a streetcar

- All Cincinnatians wanna do is drive SUVs around and hike up gas prices

- No one walks 1.8 miles

- No one walks 1.8 miles downtown or in OTR

- People who don't support the streetcar should move or die (one of my favorites because it keeps showing up!)

- Anyone who doesn't support the streetcar is a backward thinking fogey

- Anyone who doesn't support the streetcar has a small mind

- The west side is to blame for this (I was unclear on what the west side was to blame for, but if it's killing the streetcar, we'll take it!)

- All against the streetcar are myopic, lifelong residents of Cincinnati (how dare we live here all our lives! And how dare we not share your view. Best way to get your argument across is to call names and offend entire groups of people! Well done!)

- The Enquirer is a shill for Cranley.

- And my favorite line I read all day in the article about Hop On Cincinnati was this (and I'm paraphrasing here) "If the (rubber tire) trolley line isn't successful, they'll just stop the route. So we need a rail line to make it permanent." Nothing screams well-thought out, non-selfish reasons to keep the streetcar going, than admitting it might be a raging failure, but that doesn't mean it should stop. If that's not mature thinking I don't know what is. Never admit defeat. We're millions in the hole, but don't stop now!

Shall I go on?

Kahns Krazy
11-19-2013, 09:58 PM
I would rip anyone for making any of those statements. My favorite is that all the smart people have left the city. Reminds me of the day my mom called me a son of a bitch.

xeus
11-19-2013, 09:59 PM
I'd be happy to. The investment opportunity in OTR exceeds any of those other neighborhoods

I suppose you have the facts to support that claim, correct? Just kidding - the liberal elite doesn't need facts when it has hyperbole and hope. I believe you!


OTR is quite frankly far more important to the city than any of them (all 52, not just the 3 you named)

I specifically named three and referred to several other - don't do that Thor ting where you ignore half of the sentence. And yes, we can walk all 52, but that is going to put us way beyond the number of miles that you have suggested is reasonable for someone to walk.


I have another meeting December 10th (which will address your scary "gentrification" word, too).

Gentrification isn't scary, unless you consider racism and classism to be scary.

Kahns Krazy
11-19-2013, 10:12 PM
The invite is sincere and open. You can ignore it if you wish.

xeus
11-19-2013, 10:25 PM
I'm in. But my terms are as follows: We're not holding hands, no short and/or fat jokes, and we invite the Greek.

LadyMuskie
11-19-2013, 11:08 PM
Reminds me of the day my mom called me a son of a bitch.

Well. That just makes me sad.

LadyMuskie
11-19-2013, 11:09 PM
When you get to the west side neighborhoods, let me know. I'm not joining up, but I can help you hit the highlights in Westwood, Price Hill, Sedamsville and Sayler Park.

Kahns Krazy
11-20-2013, 05:39 AM
When you get to the west side neighborhoods, let me know. I'm not joining up, but I can help you hit the highlights in Westwood, Price Hill, Sedamsville and Sayler Park.

No problem. I will be happy to throw my support behind projects in those neighborhoods too. What is on tap in those areas? Do we have an opportunity to leverage tens of millions in federal funding there?

Seven Eighths
11-20-2013, 07:53 AM
I had a meeting in the 1600 block of Vine tonight. The idea that any neighborhood in Cincinnati needs investment more than OTR or that all of OTR is doing "just fine" is laughable. Just because one block of Vine is doing well does not mean that the cancer has been cured. If anyone wants to walk those streets with me and explain how boarded up vacant buildings are a sign of a strong neighborhood development, I'd be happy to buy you some swisher sweets in the only store open north of Liberty.

Do you know how many vacant buildings or store fronts there are on 4th street downtown?

Just because there are vacant and run down buildings does not mean there is a demand to rehab or reopen these sites.

OTR is indeed doing just fine, it is not going to happen over night and some parts it will never happen because the demand is simply never going to be there.

Caveat
11-20-2013, 07:54 AM
No problem. I will be happy to throw my support behind projects in those neighborhoods too. What is on tap in those areas? Do we have an opportunity to leverage tens of millions in federal funding there?

Nothing is on tap.

That's really the point. Mallory and his cronies on city council expected the neighborhoods to pay and pay -- property taxes, earnings taxes, hell he even asked for more parking meters and higher rates -- and the benefits kept being funneled to OTR and the CBD. You can't expect people to happily fork over cash to fund pet-projects elsewhere as their neighborhoods slide into decline.

GuyFawkes38
11-20-2013, 08:38 AM
I'm getting the feeling that posters against the streetcar would like to break Cincinnati into separate cities by neighborhood so they can be sure that taxes only go to their own neighborhood.

XU 87
11-20-2013, 09:03 AM
OTR is quite frankly far more important to the city than any of them (all 52, not just the 3 you named). It's why I support the investment even though it isn't in my neighborhood.



Why is investment in OTR more important than anywhere else in the city?

xujigga
11-20-2013, 09:25 AM
I'm getting the feeling that posters against the streetcar would like to break Cincinnati into separate cities by neighborhood so they can be sure that taxes only go to their own neighborhood.

If we are going to do that then I guess we should invest a ton of tax dollars into downtown since a ton of non-Cincinnati residents work downtown versus the other neighborhoods.

I think all of the non-residents who work in downtown or Clifton should be complaining that their tax dollars are being spread out to the westside, northside, since they don't use/live/work in those areas.

Kahns Krazy
11-20-2013, 11:24 AM
Why is investment in OTR more important than anywhere else in the city?

The proximity of OTR to the CBD and Uptown means that the deterioration of OTR is more likely to have a negative effect on the most important earnings centers in the city. If the decline of OTR is allowed to encroach further into those areas, businesses will be more inclined to relocate to the suburbs, further lowering the tax base, and further hindering the ability of the city to provide safety services to all neighborhoods. When employees come to work in the Kroger tower and there are bullets in their walls from the night before, that's a negative effect.

A revitalized OTR is also more likely to attract the type of young talent that the major employers in the city are looking for than a revitalized Westwood, Oakley or Mount Washington is. OTR also connects the CBD to the investments recently made in Washington Park, Music Hall, SCPA, the Casino and redevelopment along Vine. No other single area in the ciity has as much potential in such a small space.

Finally, OTR has the highest concentration of historic, standing structures from the "Italianate" style, and has been identified as the largest, most intact historic community in the country. It is on the national registry of historic spaces. It is an asset we can leverage as uniquely Cincinnati, and it's big enough and vacant enough to be a game changer for the city.

LadyMuskie
11-20-2013, 11:57 AM
No problem. I will be happy to throw my support behind projects in those neighborhoods too. What is on tap in those areas? Do we have an opportunity to leverage tens of millions in federal funding there?

Excellent. Since you're clearly clueless, we'll start with ALL of the industry along the river in Riverside, Sedamsville, and Sayler Park. Just a few short years ago, the federal government helped dump millions into getting the river bank ready for the new cement plants that moves millions of dollars in product upon and down the Ohio. Probably though, more is made on beer tours in OTR. We can then go see the amazing new owners of The Incline House in Price Hill who killed it in their opening year, making more money, by some estimates, than comparable sized restaurants in the holiest of areas, OTR. Of course, if the Queen City Terminal could get off the ground, that is estimated to bring in millions upon millions of dollars for the area, and become a major shipping port here in the inland US. If this part of lower Price Hill could be developed, then it would help spur more restaurants like Prima Vista and The Incline House.

Sadly, Westwood will have to be where you can see first hand the results of gentrification. When you push people out of one area they must go somewhere and one of those somewheres that they're are going is Westwood. Once beautiful homes with Rookwood fireplaces, some designed by Samuel Hannaford & Sons have been all but destroyed. A once vibrant business district now sits shuttered. The Gamble House which once sat on Werk Road is the perfect example of how Westwood has been thrown to the wolves. It was allowed to sit and decay, and Mayor I-Need-A-Bodyguard was too busy gallavanting in Spain to worry about that.

You may also want to remind yourself that Westwood and Price Hill were once home to some very wealthy, intelligent, innovative people who helped make this city what it is today. LaRosas and Skyline were both started on the westside, and the aforementioned Gamble House was home to a member of the Gambles of a little company called Procter & Gamble. Ivory Soap was born in Westwood. So, how about you show some fucking respect and stop referring to the rest of the city as meaningless, because from where I'm sitting, we're pretty God damned lucky to have all 52 neighborhoods and not just two. But, definitely, if you want it to just be OTR and downtown, I'm sure Delhi Township and Green Township will happily annex the billions of dollars in industry and riverfront that sits along River Road, and I'm sure Clifton (home to the city's largest employer) will easily find a way to survive on its own as well.

The streetcar is going to fail. Spectacularly. Want to know why? Because it's being run by a bunch of people who are so sure of their own superiority that they've convinced (only themselves) that only one part of a larger metropolitan area matters. The future doesn't lie in a 3 mile loop. A city collapsing on itself in one area doesn't not a better city make. Perhaps if Mallory and his dodo city manager had had any foresight they would have worked with the surrounding counties to make a truly viable rail system that will actually do something, instead of the school bus for adults who livie in OTR, which is what the streetcar is. It will drop the graphic artists and super smug investment analysts on Fountain Square for work and pick them up later to go back home, where they can sit and convince themselves that making the drop inn center move from a central location to the West End was really better for the homeless people they claim to care so much about.

XU 87
11-20-2013, 01:06 PM
The proximity of OTR to the CBD and Uptown means that the deterioration of OTR is more likely to have a negative effect on the most important earnings centers in the city. If the decline of OTR is allowed to encroach further into those areas, businesses will be more inclined to relocate to the suburbs, further lowering the tax base, and further hindering the ability of the city to provide safety services to all neighborhoods. When employees come to work in the Kroger tower and there are bullets in their walls from the night before, that's a negative effect.

A revitalized OTR is also more likely to attract the type of young talent that the major employers in the city are looking for than a revitalized Westwood, Oakley or Mount Washington is. OTR also connects the CBD to the investments recently made in Washington Park, Music Hall, SCPA, the Casino and redevelopment along Vine. No other single area in the ciity has as much potential in such a small space.

Finally, OTR has the highest concentration of historic, standing structures from the "Italianate" style, and has been identified as the largest, most intact historic community in the country. It is on the national registry of historic spaces. It is an asset we can leverage as uniquely Cincinnati, and it's big enough and vacant enough to be a game changer for the city.

The above is probably the most well thought out argument I've heard for OTR. I don't necessarily agree with it, at least as it relates to the streetcar, but it's still a well thought argument.

Caveat
11-20-2013, 01:11 PM
Excellent. Since you're clearly clueless, we'll start with ALL of the industry along the river in Riverside, Sedamsville, and Sayler Park. Just a few short years ago, the federal government helped dump millions into getting the river bank ready for the new cement plants that moves millions of dollars in product upon and down the Ohio. Probably though, more is made on beer tours in OTR. We can then go see the amazing new owners of The Incline House in Price Hill who killed it in their opening year, making more money, by some estimates, than comparable sized restaurants in the holiest of areas, OTR. Of course, if the Queen City Terminal could get off the ground, that is estimated to bring in millions upon millions of dollars for the area, and become a major shipping port here in the inland US. If this part of lower Price Hill could be developed, then it would help spur more restaurants like Prima Vista and The Incline House.

Sadly, Westwood will have to be where you can see first hand the results of gentrification. When you push people out of one area they must go somewhere and one of those somewheres that they're are going is Westwood. Once beautiful homes with Rookwood fireplaces, some designed by Samuel Hannaford & Sons have been all but destroyed. A once vibrant business district now sits shuttered. The Gamble House which once sat on Werk Road is the perfect example of how Westwood has been thrown to the wolves. It was allowed to sit and decay, and Mayor I-Need-A-Bodyguard was too busy gallavanting in Spain to worry about that.

You may also want to remind yourself that Westwood and Price Hill were once home to some very wealthy, intelligent, innovative people who helped make this city what it is today. LaRosas and Skyline were both started on the westside, and the aforementioned Gamble House was home to a member of the Gambles of a little company called Procter & Gamble. Ivory Soap was born in Westwood. So, how about you show some fucking respect and stop referring to the rest of the city as meaningless, because from where I'm sitting, we're pretty God damned lucky to have all 52 neighborhoods and not just two. But, definitely, if you want it to just be OTR and downtown, I'm sure Delhi Township and Green Township will happily annex the billions of dollars in industry and riverfront that sits along River Road, and I'm sure Clifton (home to the city's largest employer) will easily find a way to survive on its own as well.

The streetcar is going to fail. Spectacularly. Want to know why? Because it's being run by a bunch of people who are so sure of their own superiority that they've convinced (only themselves) that only one part of a larger metropolitan area matters. The future doesn't lie in a 3 mile loop. A city collapsing on itself in one area doesn't not a better city make. Perhaps if Mallory and his dodo city manager had had any foresight they would have worked with the surrounding counties to make a truly viable rail system that will actually do something, instead of the school bus for adults who livie in OTR, which is what the streetcar is. It will drop the graphic artists and super smug investment analysts on Fountain Square for work and pick them up later to go back home, where they can sit and convince themselves that making the drop inn center move from a central location to the West End was really better for the homeless people they claim to care so much about.

http://blog.formstack.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Drop-the-mic.gif

Caveat
11-20-2013, 01:16 PM
A revitalized OTR is also more likely to attract the type of young talent that the major employers in the city are looking for than a revitalized Westwood, Oakley or Mount Washington is. OTR also connects the CBD to the investments recently made in Washington Park, Music Hall, SCPA, the Casino and redevelopment along Vine. No other single area in the ciity has as much potential in such a small space.

Any night out at RP McMurphys or The Oak disagrees with you.

For keeping young professionals attached to the city, Hyde Park and Oakley are equally as important to the city as any project in OTR. There's actually a pretty strong argument to be made that the city would be better off running some form of mass transit / streetcar down Madison Rd. to connect Oakley/Hyde Park/Rookwood to downtown and take advantage of all the young professionals who live there who would be inclined to spend money or work downtown.

Kahns Krazy
11-20-2013, 01:54 PM
Any night out at RP McMurphys or The Oak disagrees with you.

For keeping young professionals attached to the city, Hyde Park and Oakley are equally as important to the city as any project in OTR. There's actually a pretty strong argument to be made that the city would be better off running some form of mass transit / streetcar down Madison Rd. to connect Oakley/Hyde Park/Rookwood to downtown and take advantage of all the young professionals who live there who would be inclined to spend money or work downtown.

Yes those areas are where that talent currently lives, but they are pretty saturated. It's hard to add net new units, and they don't need government money to do so. OTR has the advantage of thousands of vacant units waiting to be rehabbed.

I totally agree that a better transit solution is needed. I live on a bus line, drive most days, but have a number of days when I can take the bus. Round trip it is $3.50. I live 6 miles from downtown. The bus should be less than my cost of gas to get somewhere. There is tons of improvement opportunity over at SORTA. That was one of Cranley's abandoned initiatives when he was on council. He left us with some of the highest bus fares in comparable cities. Thanks John.

RoseyMuskie
11-20-2013, 02:06 PM
Any night out at RP McMurphys or The Oak disagrees with you.

For keeping young professionals attached to the city, Hyde Park and Oakley are equally as important to the city as any project in OTR. There's actually a pretty strong argument to be made that the city would be better off running some form of mass transit / streetcar down Madison Rd. to connect Oakley/Hyde Park/Rookwood to downtown and take advantage of all the young professionals who live there who would be inclined to spend money or work downtown.

BINGO. On both the first sentence and second comment.

Why this wasn't the idea in the first place is baffling.

xeus
11-20-2013, 02:30 PM
There is tons of improvement opportunity over at SORTA.

I agree with this, although I'm not sure the bus needs to cost less than the price of gas for it to remain an attractive option.


That was one of Cranley's abandoned initiatives when he was on council. He left us with some of the highest bus fares in comparable cities. Thanks John.

I disagree that it is John Cranley's fault that Metro fares are what they are, six years after he left Council.

blobfan
11-20-2013, 02:43 PM
I would rip anyone for making any of those statements. My favorite is that all the smart people have left the city. Reminds me of the day my mom called me a son of a bitch.

You told me to move my job outside of the Cincinnati now that I've moved my household. And a few more hyperbolic statements lobbed in my direction throughout the several threads.

I look forward to see you rip into yourself now, thank you.

Kahns Krazy
11-20-2013, 03:21 PM
You told me to move my job outside of the Cincinnati now that I've moved my household. And a few more hyperbolic statements lobbed in my direction throughout the several threads.

I look forward to see you rip into yourself now, thank you.

No, I asked you why you didn't get a job where you moved. My point is that a concentration of the best jobs (not all) are in the CBD and Uptown, and that is because of the infrastructure the city provides. Lots of people want to live in the 'burbs, work downtown and complain about paying taxes without appreciating why their job exists downtown.

Also, after you went the "fuck you" route, I'm not going to apologize for anything I've said to you in this debate.

Kahns Krazy
11-20-2013, 03:31 PM
I agree with this, although I'm not sure the bus needs to cost less than the price of gas for it to remain an attractive option.
I disagree that it is John Cranley's fault that Metro fares are what they are, six years after he left Council.

I think he might be one of the single biggest factors, but no, I don't actually blame him for the fare prices. John was instrumental in reducing the budget gap for SORTA. A lot of that resulted in positive changes. It also resulted in substantial fare hikes, and the directive to keep net operating losses lower with fare increases as an option.

While John isn't directly responsible for the path SORTA has taken since, he definitely started them on the way. The blame for lack of ridership is square on SORTA's shoulders since. They continue to follow a model of "Cut service. Drive people away from using the bus. Cut more service."

Lamont Sanford
11-20-2013, 03:45 PM
I got an idea...to appease all the liberal hipsterdoofusses (xeus' name for them) who live in OTR, why not design a trolley on wheels that looks like a Prius?!? That would make everyone happy, right?

Kahns Krazy
11-21-2013, 08:17 AM
I got an idea...to appease all the liberal hipsterdoofusses (xeus' name for them) who live in OTR, why not design a trolley on wheels that looks like a Prius?!? That would make everyone happy, right?

Or a giant single gear bike. In the winter, it could wear courdoroys, chunky glasses and a hipster hat. You could pay your fare in Holtman donuts and gourmet hot dogs. Also, it would have a dog. It would only stop at coffee houses that you can only go in if you set up so your mac logo faces the window, so everyone knows how hard you are working on your screenplay about the angst of growing up in a society that just isn't as smart and cool as you.

/not a hipster fan

Lamont Sanford
11-21-2013, 11:10 AM
KK -

Since you mention Holtman donuts...I have heard they are excellent and well worth the drive to Baghdad, I mean OTR. Can you confirm?

Seven Eighths
11-21-2013, 11:54 AM
Cost to cancel according to the guy that doesn't want it canceled is $33 - $47 million. Makes sense to cancel it and end the debate once and for all.

Mack Attack
11-21-2013, 12:29 PM
Cost to cancel according to the guy that doesn't want it canceled is $33 - $47 million. Makes sense to cancel it and end the debate once and for all.

That number is on top of the 32 million already spent. It makes more sense just to finish the project and use the Federal money.

Seven Eighths
11-21-2013, 12:40 PM
But it only costs $33 to cancel and at least $50 to finish and we all know it will be way more than $50 to finish. It makes sense to cancel and I'm sure Cranley will see it that was as well.

GoMuskies
11-21-2013, 12:50 PM
That number is on top of the 32 million already spent.

Sunk costs are sunk.

Mack Attack
11-21-2013, 12:58 PM
Already spent as of 11/30/13: $32.8M
Close-out Costs: $33-47M (wld be pd out of Operating Budget)
Total of ending the streetcar $66M-80M

Cost of the completed system: $133M
Federal Funding: $44.9M
Cost to the City $88M

The cost to the city to finish will likely be between $8M and $22M more than it is to scrap the project.

Seven Eighths
11-21-2013, 01:05 PM
The costs spent are already spent and some of it were improvements to things that needed to be repaired either way. It will cost $33 million to cancel and over $100 million of tax payer money to complete. Do you pay taxes?

Caveat
11-21-2013, 01:25 PM
Already spent as of 11/30/13: $32.8M
Close-out Costs: $33-47M (wld be pd out of Operating Budget)
Total of ending the streetcar $66M-80M

Cost of the completed system: $133M
Federal Funding: $44.9M
Cost to the City $88M

The cost to the city to finish will likely be between $8M and $22M more than it is to scrap the project.

Plus another ~$4m in operating costs in perpetuity. That means $4m less for cops, pothole repairs, and other city government necessities. And that cost repeats year after year after year.

Sorry, but the city can't balance it's budget as-is. It's incredibly silly to add another line-item that's completely unfunded.

RoseyMuskie
11-21-2013, 03:37 PM
Plus another ~$4m in operating costs in perpetuity. That means $4m less for cops, pothole repairs, and other city government necessities. And that cost repeats year after year after year.

Sorry, but the city can't balance it's budget as-is. It's incredibly silly to add another line-item that's completely unfunded.

You can't say with certainty that the project will be "unfunded." The car itself, yes, the project as whole, no. Just as I can't say with absolute certainty that the area will boom because of it. The intention (and this was studied by a certain rival university) is that property taxes in that region increase, increase the city's bottom line and spending base. That funding is in direct correlation with the streetcar.

boozehound
11-21-2013, 03:52 PM
Sunk costs are sunk.

Right, but they are part of the value of the project.

For example: If it only costs $30M at this point to finish the Streetcar, then I would say go ahead and finish it. If it costs $100M at this point to finish it, there is more to discuss.

GoMuskies
11-21-2013, 04:02 PM
For example: If it only costs $30M at this point to finish the Streetcar, then I would say go ahead and finish it. If it costs $100M at this point to finish it, there is more to discuss.

If you think the Streetcar is worth $30M or more you do. If not, you don't finish it just because you already put in 32.

Kahns Krazy
11-21-2013, 04:16 PM
KK -

Since you mention Holtman donuts...I have heard they are excellent and well worth the drive to Baghdad, I mean OTR. Can you confirm?

I'm biased because I know someone that works there. I think they are awesome, but I acknowledge that they are just donuts. It is possible they are overhyped. They are very fresh, and they have some varities that Busken's doesn't have.

I think the place itself is a little ridiculous. The guy in front of me in line was wearing pink suede shoes, a shirt that was wrinkled like it was in the bottom of the laundry basket for a month, a skinny tie and a stupid hat. I think Xeus has a name for those guys.

I wouldn't drive in for just that, but if you're already hanging out in OTR, it's worth trying. At my recent meeting, one of the guys was saying that he left Kaze with his group and went there for dessert and raved about it. I have stopped in a couple times on my way to work, but it isn't that far out of my way to get to the office via Vine.

Kahns Krazy
11-21-2013, 04:23 PM
If you think the Streetcar is worth $30M or more you do. If not, you don't finish it just because you already put in 32.

The anti-streetcar side will always insist that the streetcar is a failure because they will insist that the business and residents would have come there anyway. I have spoken with the owners of several of the businesses down there, and I have heard that the potential of the streetcar is why they are opening their businesses down there now. None of the anti- side will ever believe that though. Even if the streetcar goes in and the entire area explodes and there is 24 hour wait to get on a streetcar, you will have people saying it was a total waste of money because they would have been there anyway and they could have just walked. It is a risk.

xeus
11-21-2013, 10:03 PM
It is a risk.

This.

In the risk/reward analysis, I believe Hop On Cincinnati is the best option. It mitigates the risk by decreasing the investment, provides the same core service as a streetcar, AND allows for flexibility and immediate options that the streetcar does not - i.e. Clifton, Casino, Mt Adams. The Casino crowd is now suddenly and easily in play for OTW and Banks businesses, and vice versa. If I want Teak Thai after the symphony, I can take the trolley to Mt Adams. That is a strong and viable option, and ultimately, for both political and practical reasons, will likely be the compromise on this deal. At least, I hope.

boozehound
11-22-2013, 06:26 AM
If you think the Streetcar is worth $30M or more you do. If not, you don't finish it just because you already put in 32.

Agreed. The sunk cost only factors in to your decision in that it (theoretically) reduces the cost to complete.

PM Thor
11-22-2013, 06:30 AM
Why do people keep comparing the cost to cancel to the cost of finishing it? People who keep saying "finish it" are being disingenuous. They are just talking about PHASE 1, not the project of phase 2, no less 3. If proponents want to discuss the project as if it is going to be completed, include costs for going up into Clifton. Because, let's be honest, if "finishing" the streetcar only means PHASE 1, then that's a failure in epic form.

boozehound
11-22-2013, 06:36 AM
Why do people keep comparing the cost to cancel to the cost of finishing it? People who keep saying "finish it" are being disingenuous. They are just talking about PHASE 1, not the project of phase 2, no less 3. If proponents want to discuss the project as if it is going to be completed, include costs for going up into Clifton. Because, let's be honest, if "finishing" the streetcar only means PHASE 1, then that's a failure in epic form.

My (limited) understanding was that the success (or lack thereof) of Phase 1 would determine whether or not Phase 2 and/or 3 happen.

I do think the idea of having a streetcar that goes into Clifton, Mt. Adams, and possibly the Incline District in Price Hill is interesting. I would imagine that it costs a lot of money, though.

My opinion doesn't matter anyways, because I don't live in the city so I don't have a vote.

Juice
11-22-2013, 07:31 AM
Why do people keep comparing the cost to cancel to the cost of finishing it? People who keep saying "finish it" are being disingenuous. They are just talking about PHASE 1, not the project of phase 2, no less 3. If proponents want to discuss the project as if it is going to be completed, include costs for going up into Clifton. Because, let's be honest, if "finishing" the streetcar only means PHASE 1, then that's a failure in epic form.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but those number do not include the operating costs, which will of course add a bunch more millions onto the cost.

Kahns Krazy
11-22-2013, 08:05 AM
This.

In the risk/reward analysis, I believe Hop On Cincinnati is the best option. It mitigates the risk by decreasing the investment, provides the same core service as a streetcar, AND allows for flexibility and immediate options that the streetcar does not - i.e. Clifton, Casino, Mt Adams. The Casino crowd is now suddenly and easily in play for OTW and Banks businesses, and vice versa. If I want Teak Thai after the symphony, I can take the trolley to Mt Adams. That is a strong and viable option, and ultimately, for both political and practical reasons, will likely be the compromise on this deal. At least, I hope.

In my opinion, Hop On is a guaranteed failure. It will not attract the investment, because reasonable investors won't bring 30 year money into a project area that doesn't have a 30 year commitment. Hop On is still a cancellation of the streetcar, and investors will view it that way. It is also cancelable, moveable, and in no way represents a long term commitment from the city. The long term commitment to the neighborhood is as important as the actual moving of people.

Covington has had a "trolly" looking bus for several years now. It has done absolutely nothing. I would rather cancel the streetcar and walk away than act like putting a bus in OTR as it exists today is anything similar to a streetcar.

boozehound
11-22-2013, 08:11 AM
In my opinion, Hop On is a guaranteed failure. It will not attract the investment, because reasonable investors won't bring 30 year money into a project area that doesn't have a 30 year commitment. Hop On is still a cancellation of the streetcar, and investors will view it that way. It is also cancelable, moveable, and in no way represents a long term commitment from the city. The long term commitment to the neighborhood is as important as the actual moving of people.

Covington has had a "trolly" looking bus for several years now. It has done absolutely nothing. I would rather cancel the streetcar and walk away than act like putting a bus in OTR as it exists today is anything similar to a streetcar.

I believe that this is a very legitimate pro-Streetcar argument. The knowledge that there are tracks in the ground that guarantee long term traffic has to be an incentive for development along the route. There is a lot for both sides to argue on this issue, but I think that it is clear that just adding a trolley-looking bus route would not be the same thing as a Streetcar.

Kahns Krazy
11-22-2013, 08:12 AM
And correct me if I'm wrong, but those number do not include the operating costs, which will of course add a bunch more millions onto the cost.

Running a police department costs approximately 30 times what running the streetcar would cost. Should we cancel that too, or is it possible that public benefit programs should not be evaluated solely on operating costs?

blobfan
11-22-2013, 09:33 AM
You can't say with certainty that the project will be "unfunded." The car itself, yes, the project as whole, no. Just as I can't say with absolute certainty that the area will boom because of it. The intention (and this was studied by a certain rival university) is that property taxes in that region increase, increase the city's bottom line and spending base. That funding is in direct correlation with the streetcar.
The intention with the stadium funding was that taxes would increase over time and cover payments. When will we learn?

My (limited) understanding was that the success (or lack thereof) of Phase 1 would determine whether or not Phase 2 and/or 3 happen...
Yet the strongest arguments for the system are that it will connect Clifton to OTR and downtown.

You know, it's really a shame that the city has to sink $100M plus in a project few will use in order for investors to trust its commitment to itself. Given that lack of trust, how can anyone trust the project will reach any of the goals touted by the city? It's a bit of a cyclical argument, don't you think?

On another note, loved the lady on the news last night talking about suing if the project is stopped because it affects her investment. If we're going to do that we need to start by suing them for not repairing roads thus reducing the value of EVERYONE's property investment.

Caveat
11-22-2013, 09:38 AM
Running a police department costs approximately 30 times what running the streetcar would cost. Should we cancel that too, or is it possible that public benefit programs should not be evaluated solely on operating costs?

Running a police department is a core government function -- it goes with stuff like trash removal, fire protection, street maintenance, and building code / zoning enforcement as stuff that simply isn't negotiable as a line item in the city budget.

Building and running a streetcar is not a core government function. It's a luxury item being sold to taxpayers on the idea that it will generate more money (in the form of increased property values & property taxes and increased earnings taxes from new residents and new business). It's a speculative investment with potential risks and rewards. It should be evaluated solely on whether it's theoretical rewards outweigh the risk and loss of taxpayer dollars for other (in some cases core) government functions.

It's an entirely different calculus that's used.

Caveat
11-22-2013, 09:47 AM
Why do people keep comparing the cost to cancel to the cost of finishing it? People who keep saying "finish it" are being disingenuous. They are just talking about PHASE 1, not the project of phase 2, no less 3. If proponents want to discuss the project as if it is going to be completed, include costs for going up into Clifton. Because, let's be honest, if "finishing" the streetcar only means PHASE 1, then that's a failure in epic form.

The streetcar supporters don't want to talk about Phase 2 (to Clifton) or Phase 3 (to ???? because it isn't listed anywhere I can find) because there is no plan to pay for any of this. They've had to look under every couch cushion for money just to get this miniature version of the streetcar into construction.

blobfan
11-22-2013, 09:58 AM
No, I asked you why you didn't get a job where you moved. My point is that a concentration of the best jobs (not all) are in the CBD and Uptown, and that is because of the infrastructure the city provides. Lots of people want to live in the 'burbs, work downtown and complain about paying taxes without appreciating why their job exists downtown.

Also, after you went the "fuck you" route, I'm not going to apologize for anything I've said to you in this debate.
Ah! So you were lying when you said you'd rip into streetcar supporters that insulted the opposing side and told them to move out. Frankly, I fail to see the difference between telling me to move and telling me to get a job where I live after I said I'd moved out of the city. If someone else can explain your logic, there, I'm willing to listen. It's like telling me aquamarine isn't really blue. It's in the same family. And you did tell me to move before I went there.

1-When I curse people in open forums I do try to edit myself a bit. Apparently that's too much work for you. Classy.
2-You have deliberately misconstrued many of my statements and accused me repeatedly of deliberate ignorance, simply because in reading the same materials you have I've come to a different conclusion. And you accuse those who don't support this streetcar project of being illogical?
3-quit throwing up straw men: police, MSD, other road projects. Keep your arguments to this project.

If you had a real argument for the streetcar other than 'but I want to profit from taxpayer investments without putting in any direct money myself,' then you wouldn't have to rely upon misdirection and misinterpretation. Until you can come up with a consistent line of logic based upon reality, not speculation, you won't win people over to your cause.

How the hell can you in one line defend the project as a sound investment then in the next thread call it a risk? I repeat my assertion that until the people involved, particularly those implementing it, admit that it's a costly speculation, the project will be doomed before it opens. You can't mitigate risk if you don't plan for it. As I've said before, I'm ok with the risk; it's the lack of honesty and planning that concerns me. We did that with the stadium. Is there anyone not named Brown or Bedinghaus that still thinks that was a good value?

RoseyMuskie
11-22-2013, 10:49 AM
The intention with the stadium funding was that taxes would increase over time and cover payments. When will we learn?

Yet the strongest arguments for the system are that it will connect Clifton to OTR and downtown.
You know, it's really a shame that the city has to sink $100M plus in a project few will use in order for investors to trust its commitment to itself. Given that lack of trust, how can anyone trust the project will reach any of the goals touted by the city? It's a bit of a cyclical argument, don't you think?

On another note, loved the lady on the news last night talking about suing if the project is stopped because it affects her investment. If we're going to do that we need to start by suing them for not repairing roads thus reducing the value of EVERYONE's property investment.

I wasn't a resident of Hamilton County at the time the stadium deal was passed, so I can't speak knowledgably of the deal. I've only read how it has turned out poorly for taxpayers in the WSJ. But as an outsider, I will say this - that stadium is the definition of "bleh." It has the potential to be nice, but it is a concrete jungle (pun intended) inside. And quite frankly, Mike Brown and the Bengals don't help one bit. I know I'm going to aggravate a lot of Cincinnatians with those comments, but there's a reason I support the Reds and cheer against the Bengals as an outsider.

I just don't think the stadium was done right - put a dome in like Lucas Oil. Get the NCAA Tournament to Cincinnati, concerts, etc. Currently it's utilized about 12 times a year, 8 Bengals regular season games, 2 preseason games, and maybe 2 UC games. Of course the stadium is going to fail when you don't have a strong fan base and don't draw events. This is a conversation for a whole different thread though.

The streetcar needs to be done right, and maybe this isn't "right." At this point, who knows what is right. And there will be speculative risk.

Thanks for sharing your opinion throughout the thread. Definitely opened my eyes to a few items. You bring a strong argument to the table.

Caveat
11-22-2013, 11:02 AM
[B]

I wasn't a resident of Hamilton County at the time the stadium deal was passed, so I can't speak knowledgably of the deal. I've only read how it has turned out poorly for taxpayers in the WSJ. But as an outsider, I will say this - that stadium is the definition of "bleh." It has the potential to be nice, but it is a concrete jungle (pun intended) inside. And quite frankly, Mike Brown and the Bengals don't help one bit. I know I'm going to aggravate a lot of Cincinnatians with those comments, but there's a reason I support the Reds and cheer against the Bengals as an outsider.

I just don't think the stadium was done right - put a dome in like Lucas Oil. Get the NCAA Tournament to Cincinnati, concerts, etc. Currently it's utilized about 12 times a year, 8 Bengals regular season games, 2 preseason games, and maybe 2 UC games. Of course the stadium is going to fail when you don't have a strong fan base and don't draw events. This is a conversation for a whole different thread though.

The streetcar needs to be done right, and maybe this isn't "right." At this point, who knows what is right. And there will be speculative risk.

Thanks for sharing your opinion throughout the thread. Definitely opened my eyes to a few items. You bring a strong argument to the table.

FWIW -- Paul Brown Stadium was built at the height of the "We must play ALL games on a natural grass field" movement in professional sports. At the time it was planned, your only two choices for a field were natural grass or astroturf (the first FieldTurf college field didn't get installed until 1999, which was during the construction phase of PBS, and the first FieldTurf NFL stadium didn't happen until Seattle in '02) -- and astroturf was almost universally hated by athletes and cited numerous times as a reason players would not want to come to Cincinnati to play.

But, I digress.

The lesson from the stadium construction funds is that the government is just bad at projecting the future. If it tells you growth is going to be $X, you should immediately cut that number in half to get even a decent projection of how much growth will occur or how much value will actually result.

sirthought
11-22-2013, 01:28 PM
This segment on WLW's Scott Sloan show brings up a lot of good points, pro and con.

Link (http://www.700wlw.com/media/podcast-scott-sloan-on-demand-scott_sloan/prostreetcar-argument-112213-hour-2-24009815/)

Scott Sloan makes the point that several suburbanites would prefer a Light Rail plan, which I absolutely would prefer. But I don't see any of the naysayers proposing a path to making that happen. So, at this point I believe the progress that has been made should continue. The Feds won't both to help us with Light Rail if we can't even get this small project complete. The two options need to be complementary moving forward.

This article in the Cincinnati Business Courier makes several good points for keeping the project moving forward.
Ten calamities Cincinnati could face if it cancels the streetcar (http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/blog/2013/11/ten-calamities-cincinnati-could-face.html?ana=fbk&page=all)

Caveat
11-22-2013, 01:43 PM
This segment on WLW's Scott Sloan show brings up a lot of good points, pro and con.

Link (http://www.700wlw.com/media/podcast-scott-sloan-on-demand-scott_sloan/prostreetcar-argument-112213-hour-2-24009815/)

Scott Sloan makes the point that several suburbanites would prefer a Light Rail plan, which I absolutely would prefer. But I don't see any of the naysayers proposing a path to making that happen. So, at this point I believe the progress that has been made should continue. The Feds won't both to help us with Light Rail if we can't even get this small project complete. The two options need to be complementary moving forward.

This article in the Cincinnati Business Courier makes several good points for keeping the project moving forward.
Ten calamities Cincinnati could face if it cancels the streetcar (http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/blog/2013/11/ten-calamities-cincinnati-could-face.html?ana=fbk&page=all)

Number 6 on this list doesn't make sense to me: "Staff at the U.S. Department of Transportation have expressed concerns that terminating a project so heavily supported by the federal government and returning grant funds that are so highly competitive – and in such short supply – could harm future efforts by the City and other regional jurisdictions, including SORTA, to win discretionary transportation funding," Deatrick said in his prepared presentation.

If the federal government supports this project so heavily and thinks it's such an amazing idea, why aren't they kicking more cash in to build it? The federal government spends 3.4 trillion dollars a year. An additional $30 million would get this thing built, no questions asked. That would represent 0.00088235294% of the total US budget.

If Uncle Sam is so in love with this project, why not make it happen?

blobfan
11-22-2013, 01:51 PM
2. Our children will be paying for a streetcar they won't get to ride.
--this is actually a fear of opponents, too. I loathe walking past government square during certain parts of the day. I expect the streetcar circulator will have similar problems. And am I misunderstanding things or is the city budget director quoted as saying that the funding formula is flawed?

"It's not ideal to be using debt for this," Eriksen said. "We're going to be paying off these bonds for 20 years, yet we won't have, besides some of the utility relocation … tangible capital permanent improvements."
10. The city and Cincinnati Public Schools will lose out on property tax revenue they would have received as a result of increased property values in downtown and Over-the-Rhine.
--completely hypothetical and an argument identical to that of pro-stadium proponents.

There's little in this article that I find compelling. Yes, there will be repercussions. Obviously the project should never have been started with so much opposition and looming election. And there were several problems with financing and with negotiations with contractors, so pulling out could be a big hit. We started the project with too many items unsettled.

Overall, this seems like an argument for why the project should never have started. But now that it's started and is fundamentally flawed, we should push forward because to stop now will hurt us? What about the pain we'll feel 20 years from now if the project is completed?

Show me a plan. Show me a long term plan with reasonable funding estimates not based on hypothetical growth of the tax base. Any number of things could happen to slow that. We could easily have another economic downturn. Let's plan for a reasonable future, not the ideal one.

Kahns Krazy
11-22-2013, 02:24 PM
Running a police department is a core government function -- it goes with stuff like trash removal, fire protection, street maintenance, and building code / zoning enforcement as stuff that simply isn't negotiable as a line item in the city budget.

Building and running a streetcar is not a core government function. It's a luxury item being sold to taxpayers on the idea that it will generate more money (in the form of increased property values & property taxes and increased earnings taxes from new residents and new business). It's a speculative investment with potential risks and rewards. It should be evaluated solely on whether it's theoretical rewards outweigh the risk and loss of taxpayer dollars for other (in some cases core) government functions.

It's an entirely different calculus that's used.

Public transportation is not a core government function?

blobfan
11-22-2013, 02:27 PM
Public transportation is not a core government function?

The streetcar isn't public transportation. It's a limited use circulator that as far as I can tell has no real plan to connect to the existing public transit plan.

Kahns Krazy
11-22-2013, 02:42 PM
Ah! So you were lying when you said you'd rip into streetcar supporters that insulted the opposing side and told them to move out.

How the hell can you in one line defend the project as a sound investment then in the next thread call it a risk? I repeat my assertion that until the people involved, particularly those implementing it, admit that it's a costly speculation, the project will be doomed before it opens. You can't mitigate risk if you don't plan for it. As I've said before, I'm ok with the risk; it's the lack of honesty and planning that concerns me. We did that with the stadium. Is there anyone not named Brown or Bedinghaus that still thinks that was a good value?

1. No, I was not. I did not tell you to move out. You brought that up yourself. You spoke of a dream to yank all of your tax support from the city and said you hope your office would move. I asked why you wouldn't take that into your own hands and just get a job where you live. What I was looking for was an acknowldgement that there are more good jobs available in the city than there are in the suburbs. I did not tell you to get a job somewhere else, I asked you why you did not, given your stated dream.

2. We are not that far apart. I have been calling for more private involvement in every thread about the streetcar. We totally agree. I can say the streetcar returns are a risk and still say it is the best investment option because the risk of not doing it is greater than the risk of doing it. Cincinnati is dying. In the population of large cities, we are in the minority that is still losing population. If we do nothing to combat that, the city is heading down the same path that Detroit has already gone down. If the project fails, the city will be a little closer to bankruptcy. So what? As long as the city is shrinking, we are heading that way anyway. If we continue to fight any investment with the objective of drawing new residents and jobs to the city, we're hosed.

On the other hand, if the project is as successful as the expert analysis says it is (a study that has been confirmed by a third party), then we have an opportunity to capture a huge investment in the core of the city.

I've looked at the two risks, and in my opinion, not doing anything is a far bigger risk. Wasting money and canceling a project is a much bigger risk. Putting a wheeled bus on the route is the worst possible option.

Kahns Krazy
11-22-2013, 02:43 PM
The streetcar isn't public transportation. It's a limited use circulator that as far as I can tell has no real plan to connect to the existing public transit plan.

Oh. So it does not move people from one place to another? I'm confused.

blobfan
11-22-2013, 03:10 PM
1. Kahn's, I think you had a dream about my dream. I can't find where I used that word. I spoke about not getting value for tax dollars and because of that I'm glad I moved outside of the city. I invested 14 years in the city and got screwed at every turn, not just by no value for my tax investment but because of red tape thrown in my way when trying to make improvements. Yes, I hope my company moves out of the city so I don't have to deal with the shenanigans any more. But that's me giving up, not dreaming. My dream was that the city turn itself around so I can enjoy my investment in it. I'd prefer that. But after 14 years as a resident plus the 5 prior years I spent here as a student has crushed that dream. Since my vote didn't count, I decided to vote with my feet.

I still don't get how "why don't you get a job where you live" is not advocating that I leave the city completely. I really don't. You NEVER asked me whether or not I thought downtown offered a better job than where I live now. And actually, where I live now is great largely because a pretty great company has offices there. I'm simply dedicated to the people I currently work for and the only trade off would be paying fewer taxes to the city.

2. Your logic continues to be unsound. First, the streetcar is not the best option. It's just the only one city government decided to seriously investigate. I believe focused neighborhood investment and improvement of city infrastructure is a better way to spend money than the streetcar. Counsel and Mayor were chasing a dream and enjoying all the attention and free trips. Scratch that. Taxpayer funded trips. We are way off here. I'm saying we should invest in what we have not start something new at the expense of it. You see it as streetcar or nothing. It never was and it still isn't the case. If memory serves, you've been a proponent from the beginning. But if you'd really been advocating private investment since the beginning your support would have been qualified since the beginning. In the beginning you were all about the validity of the study. Now that problems are cropping up your argument is 'in for a penny, in for a pound.'

And I'm sorry but you can't argue in one post that the streetcar is a risk so it's unreasonable for people to expect proof of return then argue that the studies are a proof of how not-risky the project is. The risk of not completing the streetcar now is only an issue because the darned thing was begun with too many variables up in the air. On what planet does it make sense to start with a lawsuit in the works with Duke Energy hanging over the project before ground is even broken?

Where is this study that says the project will be wildly successful? I've yet to see that. Every study I've seen says there is only correlational evidence that other cities that built streetcars saw a growth in development. In every one of those cases the streetcar was part of a greater development plan and no attempt was made to determine what if any impact the streetcar alone had on economic growth. So the best option is actually to make the investment without the streetcar and if the growth doesn't come, THEN build the streetcar. We lose nothing with that plan. Now we are seeing what we lose if we start with the streetcar without economic development. And I mean beyond making the line itself pretty, which as far as I can tell is the sum total of the Cincinnati plan. Thus far I haven't seen a single study that has any greater basis in reality than the stadium study.

blobfan
11-22-2013, 03:14 PM
Oh. So it does not move people from one place to another? I'm confused.

If this project is public transportation, it is over-priced and falling far short of impact since it covers a 3.6 mile loop and doesn't connect with the existing network. How can you support it as public transportation without jumping to how great phase 2 is going to be? The streetcar is nothing without phase 2. It doesn't even go to the casino. But you can't then argue that it's a greater loss to stop the project than to complete it until you add in probably costs of Phase 2.

LadyMuskie
11-22-2013, 05:07 PM
Oh, Blobfan, my friend. I think you're trying to figure out the pro-streetcar argument using logic. So silly! Try suspending logic, critical thinking, common sense, and be super selfish and also sanctimonious and superior for no reason, and you'll be able to understand the pro-streetcar argument really well!

Caveat
11-22-2013, 05:48 PM
You don't understand -- the only reason it's a 3 hour wait for a table at Bakersfield or why there are waiting lists for rehabbed condos in OTR is because everyone knows that there will be a streetcar coming one day.

PM Thor
11-23-2013, 05:44 AM
Even if this first phase is done, the current administration won't pursue phase 2 during Cranleys tenure. Meaning, that will be at least 4 years of delay for streetcar expansion. That is yet another reason to consider stopping the project.

Kahns Krazy
11-23-2013, 06:20 AM
1. Kahn's, I think you had a dream about my dream. I can't find where I used that word. I spoke about not getting value for tax dollars and because of that I'm glad I moved outside of the city. I invested 14 years in the city and got screwed at every turn, not just by no value for my tax investment but because of red tape thrown in my way when trying to make improvements. Yes, I hope my company moves out of the city so I don't have to deal with the shenanigans any more. But that's me giving up, not dreaming. My dream was that the city turn itself around so I can enjoy my investment in it. I'd prefer that. But after 14 years as a resident plus the 5 prior years I spent here as a student has crushed that dream. Since my vote didn't count, I decided to vote with my feet..



This whole project has been such a punt in the dark. Now that I managed to move my butt out of the city I'm hoping that my office decides to transfer when our lease is up so I can pull the rest of my taxes out of this mess. Not likely to happen but a girl can dream.

Is this like Muskieman where someone broke into your office and posted under your name?

Kahns Krazy
11-23-2013, 06:24 AM
You don't understand -- the only reason it's a 3 hour wait for a table at Bakersfield or why there are waiting lists for rehabbed condos in OTR is because everyone knows that there will be a streetcar coming one day.

Or you could argue that it's because there aren't enough restaurants and condos because not enough business owners and developers are willing to invest in the area without the streetcar.

One block of Vine is really coming along. Why wouldn't we want to build on that momentum?

Remember Main Street 15 years ago? That place was hopping. Lines to get in places, condos selling out in record time. Why didn't that area just continue to expand and develop on its own?

Kahns Krazy
11-23-2013, 06:33 AM
Even if this first phase is done, the current administration won't pursue phase 2 during Cranleys tenure. Meaning, that will be at least 4 years of delay for streetcar expansion. That is yet another reason to consider stopping the project.

I'm not totally sure that's a reason. The current phase even if Cranley doesn't cancel it isn't expected to be complete until 2015. If it's a total failure, then delaying phase 2 is nothing to worry about. If it's driving the projected levels of investment, I think Cranley will be willing enough to admit that phase 2 is worthy of study.

DART87
11-23-2013, 09:00 AM
Remember Main Street 15 years ago? That place was hopping. Lines to get in places, condos selling out in record time. Why didn't that area just continue to expand and develop on its own?

Is this a serious question?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_riots_of_2001

I thought this was an interesting perspective from 2006:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/25/us/25cincy.html

sirthought
11-23-2013, 04:38 PM
More analysis of the numbers from the Enquirer.

Link (http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20131122/NEWS/311220162/Checking-math-streetcar-cancellation)

I believe it's making an even stronger case for completing the project. Cranley is going to be fought tooth and nail on this the whole way, adding needless cost to an already drawn out project. After that, people are going to demand some sort of substitute plan from him, since he's killed what they were hoping for. Any new proposal, even if it's a decorated bus, is going to cost more money to implement and run. We're better off finishing the current project and working on ways to make it a success.

sirthought
11-24-2013, 12:17 PM
Some important thoughts from John Schneider, one of the most knowledgeable rail advocates in the country:


Those "streetcar" rails going down on Elm Street -- those are light rail tracks.

A couple of years ago, an engineer designing our streetcar mentioned Cincinnati wouldn't be installing the type of streetcar rail used in Seattle and Portland because that Austrian-made product doesn't comply with "Buy America" requirements. He said not to worry, that the type of rail Cincinnati would be using would open up more possibilities for the future. I never thought much more about it ...

... until a couple of weeks ago when I studied the end-profile of the rail they're installing on Elm Street right now. I could see it wasn't the streetcar rail I'm used to seeing in the Pacific Northwest. It was common "T" rail used on all kinds of rail systems across the country. So I called my engineer friend and others associated with the project, and sure enough, Cincinnati is building tracks through Over-the-Rhine today that can someday host light rail trains.

There is a similar story in Tacoma, which wants light rail to Seattle someday. Tacoma built its "streetcar tracks" to light rail specs and is now running streetcars similar to ours until the time is ripe for light rail. You can look it up: Google "Tacoma Link Light Rail." You'll see pictures of streetcars, not full-on light rail trains.

What Cincinnati is building on Elm Street today could easily become the light rail spine through the heart of the region, slicing diagonally across the downtown basin with seven Fortune 500 corporations, two-thirds of our region's cultural institutions and thousands of potential new homes within a few blocks of the line.

Prowling around the web site of our streetcar-manufacturer, CAF, I found this: http://www.caf.es/en/productos-servicios/proyectos/proyecto-detalle.php?p=257 This is the Cincinnati Streetcar, which CAF calls a light rail vehicle (LRV). Cincinnati is buying five of these three-section Urbos vehicles shown here, but CAF makes five- and seven-section Urbos too. Even nine-section ones if you need to move enough passengers to fill a 747.

I asked around some more, and it turns out the engineers have also designed the radii of the curved track to accommodate longer trains. In order to run light rail on our streetcar line someday, we'd have to boost electrical power, change the signal wiring, and lengthen the platforms where the trains would stop. But those are small potatoes in the big picture.

You've heard it before, many times: "The streetcar doesn't go anywhere," or "I'm not crazy about the streetcar, what I really want is light rail."

It doesn't have to be this way forever. Using the Cincinnati Streetcar tracks now under construction, we could have light rail in the I-75 Corridor sooner rather than later. Cincinnatians who believe that rail is "just about downtown" need to look at this from 30,000 feet.

Here's why. Our streetcars will travel north along Elm until they pass Findlay Market where they will turn east to head up the hill to UC. Longer, faster light rail trains can follow the same path on Elm, but turn west north of Findlay, head over to Central Parkway and then to I-75 where a rail corridor extending throughout Hamilton County is being preserved as part of the highway work now underway. That was a requirement of the I-75 Corridor Study, which found that a newly widened I-75 would many more cars and trucks by induced demand and that only the construction of light rail in the corridor would keep future freeway congestion in check. The I-75 light rail might not always run alongside the highway; it probably can't in some places. And anyway, the rail line probably wants to leave the highway here and there in order to penetrate neighborhoods and business districts where people live and work.

So our new Mayor and City Council can choose to cancel the Cincinnati Streetcar at great financial and reputational costs to our city. Or they can move forward and complete the project, allow Cincinnatians to become accustomed to using rail transit, and -- when we're ready to resume the community conversation on regional light rail -- have the keystone building block in place. This is an important frame for the decision our city is about to make.

It's a big decision, a defining moment for Greater Cincinnati. If we turn away from the expanded transportation choices in front of us now, we probably won't have this chance again for a long time.

John Schneider

blobfan
11-24-2013, 10:06 PM
Is this like Muskieman where someone broke into your office and posted under your name?
OK. So I missed my offhand comment at the end of a long post. Not quite the grand dream you made it out to be, even if I did use the word. You still have to convince me that telling me to move, dream or not, is somehow different than the behavior you said you'd rip into if pro-streetcar people acted that way to opponents. Remember, you said that BEFORE I told you to F-off. In fact, that's the statement that prompted me to say that. So, explain or commence self-rippage.

More analysis of the numbers from the Enquirer.

Link (http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20131122/NEWS/311220162/Checking-math-streetcar-cancellation)

I believe it's making an even stronger case for completing the project. Cranley is going to be fought tooth and nail on this the whole way, adding needless cost to an already drawn out project. After that, people are going to demand some sort of substitute plan from him, since he's killed what they were hoping for. Any new proposal, even if it's a decorated bus, is going to cost more money to implement and run. We're better off finishing the current project and working on ways to make it a success.
You read that as being a compelling argument FOR completing the project? An article discussing how cost figures could be anywhere from minimal to half the proposed cost of project? Even though costs have already increased a couple times and construction is barely underway?

Some important thoughts from John Schneider, one of the most knowledgeable rail advocates in the country:
How happy do you think the pro-streetcar property owners along the route will be if actual trains are run on the tracks? Doesn't the idea of converting the route to light rail defeat the purpose of developing neighborhoods? How many people see their property values go up when they live ON a rail line? You believe this is a reason to support the project? The possibility of running multi-car trains RIGHT INTO DOWNTOWN?!?

boozehound
11-25-2013, 06:32 AM
How happy do you think the pro-streetcar property owners along the route will be if actual trains are run on the tracks? Doesn't the idea of converting the route to light rail defeat the purpose of developing neighborhoods? How many people see their property values go up when they live ON a rail line? You believe this is a reason to support the project? The possibility of running multi-car trains RIGHT INTO DOWNTOWN?!?

Not that Cincinnati is Chicago or Boston, but in those cities living on the rail line is considered a plus. I don't think it really works in the 'burbs as well, but I think people are OK with living near a light rail line in an urban setting.

I do think it would be cool if something existed in Cincinnati similar to the rail lines in Boston. There are a couple of major lines that run out from the city, typically following the major highways, with Park and Ride stations every couple of miles or so. Minneapolis has a similar system. When I go to Minneapolis I can pick up a train right from the airport that takes me downtown in 20 minutes. It's pretty nice.

That is why I am torn on the Streetcar. The idea of what it is going to be (Phase 1) doesn't really excite me, but the idea of what it could be is pretty cool. Imagine light rail running up 71 from downtown to Mason, up 75 from downtown to West Chester, and from the airport to downtown. That would be really cool. I'm not sure how economically feasible that is with all the hills and rivers we have in this city, but it would be pretty sweet.

GoMuskies
11-25-2013, 06:53 AM
Yeah, if the trains are anything like the Green line trains in Boston, the property owners would be thrilled to have that running past their property. Of course, even those go underground once you get to downtown Boston.

Kahns Krazy
11-25-2013, 07:04 AM
OK. So I missed my offhand comment at the end of a long post. Not quite the grand dream you made it out to be, even if I did use the word. You still have to convince me that telling me to move, dream or not, is somehow different than the behavior you said you'd rip into if pro-streetcar people acted that way to opponents. Remember, you said that BEFORE I told you to F-off. In fact, that's the statement that prompted me to say that. So, explain or commence self-rippage.?!?

I didn't tell you to move. You have already moved. How can I tell you to do something you've already done? If I were going to tell you where to move, it would be back into the city. I inquired as to why you hadn't gotten a job where you moved to. You took that as me telling you to get a job there, but that's not what I said, and I've repeated my intent 5 times now. You keep ignoring it, and now you're putting even more words in my mouth.

Listen, if it will help, I'm an asshole. You are right. You should be able to move out, post about your hope that you can stop paying any city taxes at all, but still be vocal about how future investments are made without any opposition from current and future city residents. I rip on me. You win.

Caveat
11-25-2013, 07:29 AM
Not that Cincinnati is Chicago or Boston, but in those cities living on the rail line is considered a plus. I don't think it really works in the 'burbs as well, but I think people are OK with living near a light rail line in an urban setting.

I do think it would be cool if something existed in Cincinnati similar to the rail lines in Boston. There are a couple of major lines that run out from the city, typically following the major highways, with Park and Ride stations every couple of miles or so. Minneapolis has a similar system. When I go to Minneapolis I can pick up a train right from the airport that takes me downtown in 20 minutes. It's pretty nice.

That is why I am torn on the Streetcar. The idea of what it is going to be (Phase 1) doesn't really excite me, but the idea of what it could be is pretty cool. Imagine light rail running up 71 from downtown to Mason, up 75 from downtown to West Chester, and from the airport to downtown. That would be really cool. I'm not sure how economically feasible that is with all the hills and rivers we have in this city, but it would be pretty sweet.

I agree -- that would be awesome.

I've lived in cities that have extensive rail transit like Washington and spent lots of time in other cities like New York and Boston. I love Boston's T system. I genuinely wish we had something like that in Cincinnati -- I'd love to wake up in the morning, walk from my house to a transit stop and take the train into work instead of having to drive and park. I'd add a few extra minutes on to my commute to avoid having to put miles on my car or worry about traffic/weather even though I live in the city and fairly close to downtown.

The problem is that the Streetcar isn't a first step to any of this. It's so half-baked in it's current iteration that it has, quite literally, no hope of ever meeting even basic ridership numbers necessary to keep it from being a giant money drain on the city. There will be little political will to ever expand to Phase 2 (to say nothing of Phases beyond that). It'll be something people, in the future, look at and say "Why would we want to expand rail transit in Cincinnati? No one rides the streetcar as it is!" or "The streetcar loses tons of money, cost a ton of money to build, and didn't work like we were hoping -- why try again?"

sirthought
11-25-2013, 09:41 AM
Blobfan, you are hopeless. Read it again. You must not understand it.


Here is another opinion piece from the Cincinnati Business Courier showing how childish Cranley is acting at this stage. If we were earlier in the game, I'd say stop the project and let's go back to the drawing board. But at this stage ending it would such a huge hit to the city, he's only being irresponsible and stubborn.

Link (http://m.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/morning_call/2013/11/commentary-cranley-doubles-down-on.html?ana=e_cinci_rdup&s=newsletter&ed=2013-11-25&r=full)


Asked why anyone should believe a politician over an engineer with decades of successful project management experience, a budget director with a Xavier MBA and 15 years experience at City Hall, and half the city legal staff, Cranley didn't answer the question.

"Well," he said, "The fact of the matter is it doesn’t take $40 million to say stop. And that's a scare tactic."

It reminded me of what Stephen Colbert once said about George W. Bush: "He believes the same thing Wednesday that he believed on Monday, no matter what happened on Tuesday. Events can change. This man's beliefs never will."

Cranley indicated whomever he appoints as interim city manager would bring in new people who would produce credible estimates.

But how will the mechanics of that work? How is anyone who hasn't worked on the project going to come in and, within days, cough up well-researched numbers?

And if Deatrick's numbers aren't believable only because he works for people today who support the project, why would anyone believe a Cranley administration-produced estimate given Cranley's use of the streetcar as a political cudgel?

nuts4xu
11-25-2013, 10:02 AM
Listen, if it will help, I'm an asshole. You are right.

First step is admitting the problem. My name is Nuts, and I too am an asshole.

Only 11 more steps to go!

Kahns Krazy
11-25-2013, 10:47 AM
First step is admitting the problem. My name is Nuts, and I too am an asshole.

Only 11 more steps to go!

Oh crap. I will never make it through the Amends part.

Lamont Sanford
11-25-2013, 01:11 PM
If it matters, I too can vouch that both Kahns and nuts are assholes.

Throw in gladdenguy and Fred Garvin while we're at it too.

xeus
11-25-2013, 01:21 PM
I'm also an asshole.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrgpZ0fUixs

sirthought
11-25-2013, 04:30 PM
From today's Cincinnati Business Courier. This is an interesting move.


Why did Cincinnati council members just vote to approve the streetcar today?

Just five days before a new mayor and city council take office, the current Cincinnati City Council will vote on an ordinance directing the city administration to finish the first phase of the streetcar project.

The reason? The current council has never taken such a vote.

It has voted to spend millions on the project and passed favorable resolutions but never put the construction of the streetcar line, stations and maintenance facilities and manufacture of the cars into the city code.

The ordinance also ensures that mayor-elect John Cranley and the person he appoints to be interim city manager cannot cancel the project on their own. Cranley, who intends to cancel the streetcar project, always has said he would ask for a city council vote anyway.

The City Council’s Budget and Finance Committee approved the ordinance 5-0-2. Vice Mayor Roxanne Qualls was joined by council members Wendell Young, Laure Quinlivan, Chris Seelbach and Yvette Simpson in approving the ordinance for the full council’s consideration at its last meeting on Tuesday morning.

Council members P.G. Sittenfeld and Charles Winburn abstained. Sittenfeld told reporters he would not do so on Tuesday.

“That ordinance means more than people might have understood it means,” said Sittenfeld, who wanted to hear more explanation from the city solicitor’s office. “This was not a formality and this was not symbolic.”

“This is the current council trying to exercise as much authority and control over the future council’s decisions as they can.”

Sittenfeld, who could be a key swing vote on whether the project continues under Cranley, plans to announce his position on canceling the project at a Tuesday morning news conference prior to the 9:30 a.m. council meeting.

PM Thor
11-25-2013, 08:18 PM
You know what's funny? When a Councilman named Seelbach (who I support in terms of almost every other issue) bans me from his Facebook page because I was willing to have an honest and open debate about the streetcar, but simply disagreed with his (and some of his supporters) position.

blobfan
11-25-2013, 08:46 PM
Blobfan, you are hopeless. Read it again. You must not understand it.


Here is another opinion piece from the Cincinnati Business Courier showing how childish Cranley is acting at this stage. If we were earlier in the game, I'd say stop the project and let's go back to the drawing board. But at this stage ending it would such a huge hit to the city, he's only being irresponsible and stubborn.

Link (http://m.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/morning_call/2013/11/commentary-cranley-doubles-down-on.html?ana=e_cinci_rdup&s=newsletter&ed=2013-11-25&r=full)


You know what's funny? When a Councilman named Seelbach (who I support in terms of almost every other issue) bans me from his Facebook page because I was willing to have an honest and open debate about the streetcar, but simply disagreed with his (and some of his supporters) position.

Well, Thor, apparently I'm an idiot here because I read the same article as another poster and came to a completely different conclusion. But, you know, it's not because I have a well-considered opinion but because I'm hopeless and don't read carefully.

XU 87
11-25-2013, 09:09 PM
Blobfan, you are hopeless. Read it again. You must not understand it.


Here is another opinion piece from the Cincinnati Business Courier showing how childish Cranley is acting at this stage. If we were earlier in the game, I'd say stop the project and let's go back to the drawing board. But at this stage ending it would such a huge hit to the city, he's only being irresponsible and stubborn.

Link (http://m.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/morning_call/2013/11/commentary-cranley-doubles-down-on.html?ana=e_cinci_rdup&s=newsletter&ed=2013-11-25&r=full)

First, this is an editorial, and really lacking in factual foundation in many parts. Second, I would find him a little more persuasive if he didn't somehow manage to use the streetcar to let us know he doesn't like George Bush.

I wonder if he knows the city paid $2,000,000 for a parking lot in OTR that was worth about $150,000-200,000.

Caveat
11-26-2013, 07:59 AM
It's a shrewd move by the outgoing mayor and council.

If this resolution passes, it'll require a vote from council to cancel the streetcar -- which means that, should the supporters gather enough signatures to put the issue on the ballot as a referendum, the law that will be "stayed" pending the election is the action to cancel the streetcar. Theoretically, that means construction on the streetcar would have to continue while the ballot initiative is pending (v. the inverse, where building the streetcar would have to halt while the election is pending).

sirthought
11-26-2013, 09:09 AM
First, this is an editorial, and really lacking in factual foundation in many parts. Second, I would find him a little more persuasive if he didn't somehow manage to use the streetcar to let us know he doesn't like George Bush.

I wonder if he knows the city paid $2,000,000 for a parking lot in OTR that was worth about $150,000-200,000.

As I stated, it is an opinion piece from a newspaper focused on business. The author has some valid questions about who will have any credibility and still be someone Cranley might actually trust for real advice. His tactics for firing everyone who disagrees with him is setting us up for greater division.

Bush was an apt target in this case, as someone who is well-known for holding to his convictions despite the truthful facts about certain things such as WMD and the deficit. That is another debate all together. But I'm surprised you fail to see factual foundation. He summarizes fairly in my opinion.

Cranley was the one who refused to take the project manager's numbers as fact, dismissing that information without even attending the presentation. It reminds me of another Colbert bit, "guys like us, we don't pay attention to the facts. Facts have a well-known liberal bias."