Chiquita leaves Cincinnati

[PM Thor]

Cincinnati is on notice. With the continual downgrading of CVG, international companies will seek, and most likely get, greener pastures elsewhere. Fewer international flights is killing CVG, and the ripple effect is being felt throughout the area. Hundreds of jobs are being lost because of this move, a huge swath of downtown office space is being vacated. Granted, the massive incentive package definitely helped ($20 million from the state and $2 million from locals) but I honestly believe that Chiquita started looking originally because CVG has drastically cut back it's international flights. And yes, I am looking directly at P&G and some of their departments. (no P&G would not leave Cincy altogether, but its global HQ would have no problem moving to Singapore while leaving the north American hub here)

I HATE dayton.

[boozehound]

P&G is not going anywhere. Chiquita really didn't have that many people actually located in Cincinnati so it was a fairly 'easy' move for them. The more people you have to relocate the harder and more costly the move is.

CVG has definitely been mis-managed though. No doubt about that.

[PM Thor]

I know P&G as a whole isn't going anywhere, but departments, especially on the global side of their business, could relocate very easily, especially where their emerging markets are growing, Asia and Africa. Like I said, CVG is hurting right now, and I do believe that the loss of Chiquita is just the tip of the iceberg if CVG doesn't get a major carrier in there to replace the loss of flights, both international and national that came with Delta scaling back.
As for Chiquita, those jobs aren't just moving, Channel 9 just reported that only 90 are going to relocate, the rest are being layed off, the average pay for those jobs was $107,000. This isn't like Cincy is losing a bunch of ditch diggers, these were white-collar, educated positions disappearing.

I HATE dayton.

[GuyFawkes38]

I guess it's sort of sad.

But Cincinnati is losing international flights because there isn't enough demand. Which makes me question how important international travel is to the Cincy economy. Probably not too important, IMHO.

The airline industry is ridiculously subsidized by local and national governments. It's absurd. Travelers should pay the full price of a flight. Taxpayers shouldn't have to pitch in.

[X-band '01]

Everyone knows that Cincinnati's real airport is up in Dayton. The flights are so much cheaper up there it's not funny.

Enquirer Article (http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20111129/BIZ01/311290018)

As far as the Chiquita building, it appears that Nielsen (a Northern Kentucky company) has plans to move about 600 employees into the building and possibly acquire naming rights for the center. That would fill up a good part of the building vacancies.

[SixFig]

Everyone knows that Cincinnati's real airport is up in Dayton. The flights are so much cheaper up there it's not funny.

Enquirer Article (http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20111129/BIZ01/311290018)

As far as the Chiquita building, it appears that Nielsen (a Northern Kentucky company) has plans to move about 600 employees into the building and possibly acquire naming rights for the center. That would fill up a good part of the building vacancies.

Good news. Nielsen is a solid company fo sho.

[boozehound]

I guess it's sort of sad.

But Cincinnati is losing international flights because there isn't enough demand. Which makes me question how important international travel is to the Cincy economy. Probably not too important, IMHO.

The airline industry is ridiculously subsidized by local and national governments. It's absurd. Travelers should pay the full price of a flight. Taxpayers shouldn't have to pitch in.

The fact that we aren't a Delta hub anymore has far more to do with losing flights, particularly international flights, than demand. People used to fly to CVG from other cities to connect to other flights. Now they fly somewhere else. It's not like the demand evaporated, it just moved was moved elsewhere by Delta.

[Kahns Krazy]

I know P&G as a whole isn't going anywhere, but departments, especially on the global side of their business, could relocate very easily, especially where their emerging markets are growing, Asia and Africa. Like I said, CVG is hurting right now, and I do believe that the loss of Chiquita is just the tip of the iceberg if CVG doesn't get a major carrier in there to replace the loss of flights, both international and national that came with Delta scaling back.
As for Chiquita, those jobs aren't just moving, Channel 9 just reported that only 90 are going to relocate, the rest are being layed off, the average pay for those jobs was $107,000. This isn't like Cincy is losing a bunch of ditch diggers, these were white-collar, educated positions disappearing.

I HATE dayton.

Boy, you really have your finger on the pulse of corporate Cincinnati. You almost used the term emerging markets correctly.

Chiquita was in a unique position. Uncle Carl moved them here because he loved Cincinnati, but it was never a good fit. The average salary looks high, but it's probably not reflective of the local taxable income numbers. It's likely that one of the reasons that they are even able to do this relocation is that a majority of the "Cincinnati" employees aren't really based here anyway.

Backfilling Chiquita with Omnicare and Neilsen will be a net gain for the city. Overall, it's ust not a big deal for the region as a whole, though it's a big hit to Covington, which is likely heading for bankruptcy.

As far as your "tip of the iceberg" comment, that's just laughable. There just aren't that many companies in Chiquita's position. You're not going to suddenly see a mass exodous to Charlotte or anywhere else from Cincinnati.

Also, I have no idea what Channel 9 reported, but there is no way that Chiquita is "laying off" 235 workers with an average salary of $107,000. Do some critical thinking for a change.

[bobbiemcgee]

Have to admit whenever I fly in for games, it's to Indpls. or dayton. Don't even check CVG anymore as usually 3 times the price. Last time I flew to Lexington for cheap, then drove right by CVG on way to town.

[PM Thor]

The fact that we aren't a Delta hub anymore has far more to do with losing flights, particularly international flights, than demand. People used to fly to CVG from other cities to connect to other flights. Now they fly somewhere else. It's not like the demand evaporated, it just moved was moved elsewhere by Delta.

And the day that Chiquita leaves Cincy, Delta declares that they are adding flights from Cincy to Atlanta and Detroit among other US flights. This does not solve the issue of the loss of international flights. At one time Cincy had 600 flights per day, now CVG is under 200, with just the Cincy to Paris flight left to Europe. Losing Chiquita isn't just about the actual jobs being lost, it's the perception of it all. A supposedly international business friendly city, with a dying airport, losing a high profile company, what does it say about this area to other international companies based here...

I HATE dayton.

[Smooth]

And the day that Chiquita leaves Cincy, Delta declares that they are adding flights from Cincy to Atlanta and Detroit among other US flights. This does not solve the issue of the loss of international flights. At one time Cincy had 600 flights per day, now CVG is under 200, with just the Cincy to Paris flight left to Europe. Losing Chiquita isn't just about the actual jobs being lost, it's the perception of it all. A supposedly international business friendly city, with a dying airport, losing a high profile company, what does it say about this area to other international companies based here...

I HATE dayton.

It says that it is now easier to get a flight to Atlanta or Detroit and get an international flight from there. I'm glad Cincinnati (and Ohio) didn't give away money it doesn't have just to keep a company here to help the "perception" of the city. If having fewer money-losing flights out of CVG will lower the price for the remaining flights (I don't know whether it has, I don't fly regularly) then I am good with that too.

[LadyMuskie]

And the day that Chiquita leaves Cincy, Delta declares that they are adding flights from Cincy to Atlanta and Detroit among other US flights. This does not solve the issue of the loss of international flights. At one time Cincy had 600 flights per day, now CVG is under 200, with just the Cincy to Paris flight left to Europe. Losing Chiquita isn't just about the actual jobs being lost, it's the perception of it all. A supposedly international business friendly city, with a dying airport, losing a high profile company, what does it say about this area to other international companies based here...

I HATE dayton.

I don't know. I don't really think it says much of anything. Chiquita has been looking to move for more than a decade. There were even rumors flying when I started working downtown in late '98. Once the Lindners had to sell their majority in the bankruptcy in 02, the ball really started rolling. It never really made much sense for them to be here in the first place, and many Chiquita employees never really expected Chiquita to be in Cincinnati for the long haul.

If I remember correctly, Chiquita is facing several law suits right now which experts are saying will cost them hundreds of millions. I'm guessing there is a stronger correlation between the tax incentives and the move, than the airport and the move. Chiquita is going to be needing some money once they have to settle all these suits.

Besides, I have several friends whose husbands work for P&G and they fly out of CVG several times per month to Europe and South America without problems. My husband used to work for Great American and they'd fly international out of CVG as well without problem and his friends who still work there still do. If P&G and Great American can handle it, then Chiquita wasn't having any issues getting international flights out of CVG.

[PM Thor]

It says that it is now easier to get a flight to Atlanta or Detroit and get an international flight from there. I'm glad Cincinnati (and Ohio) didn't give away money it doesn't have just to keep a company here to help the "perception" of the city. If having fewer money-losing flights out of CVG will lower the price for the remaining flights (I don't know whether it has, I don't fly regularly) then I am good with that too.

I don't know, catching a connection flight, especially an international one, in a word, sucks. For a town to go from having multiple daily international flights to multiple cities, to what we have now cannot be deemed as good for business.

As for keeping Chiquita, I wasn't saying that they should have thrown money at them to keep them. I was stating that with CVG becoming what it is, it's hurting business. I doubt anyone can deny that. And it appears no one is addressing the problem at CVG either. It's dying, and there is a trickle down effect.

And Lady, who do you think was pressuring Delta to have more flights to hubs? I would definitely point to P&G as one source. It's a stopgap measure to a larger issue happening at CVG.

I HATE dayton

[LadyMuskie]

The issue I take with your theory is that you make it sound as though P&G just got to Cincinnati and are now exerting this pressure on CVG and Delta in order to get their employees around the world. But, the fact is that P&G has had no problem sending its employees all over the world during the same period of time that CVG has become a ghost town.

If P&G was so concerned about the lack of flights, then why not exert the pressure long ago? Why wait until now? Why not go public with the pressure to get some real change? It's not as if CVG just went from boom town to ghost town over night. The change started happening with Delta before 9/11 and just increased speed after 2001. If in that 10 year period, P&G wanted to exert change, then it would have done so instead of just sitting around hoping for it.

It's all a lot of cloak and dagger for me, and I'm just not buying it. Usually, the simplest answer is the right answer. Follow the money. Chiquita left because it got a better financial deal somewhere closer to where it wanted to be. If Ohio and Cincinnati had thrown $30 million at them, then Chiquita's headquarters would still be Cincinnati, Ohio. If we had matched the N.C. deal, I think Chiquita still moves and not because of our airport. It would be because Charlotte is a better location for the company when you look at its subsidiaries and where it conducts production. Perhaps the situation with CVG was contributory in some fashion, but it was not a deciding factor in Chiquita's move.

I'll agree that life would be easier, I'm sure, for business travelers if there were more flights out of CVG, but you can't convince me that the reason Chiquita left is because of the lack of flights in and out of CVG.

[xeus]

CVG is not dying. Quit being so dramatic.

And Chiquita should have left 5-7 years ago. This is not a sign of a Cincinnati apocalypse.

Why do you care anyway? You have made it clear on this board that, as an oppressed firefighter, you have very little time or money to travel, that your body will be broken by the time you are 50 thus forcing retirement, and you'll likely be dead by the age of 52. Do you really care that there is no direct flight to five European cities?

By the way, did you see that Middletown canned 9 firefighter positions? Congrats on Issue 2.

[PM Thor]

Lady, there's no cloak and dagger aspect to it. P&G used to use Delta as their preferred airline and it was that way for about a decade. They recently changed to United. It's not too hard to read between the lines on this, it was a business move due to the loss of flights from CVG. P&G was putting pressure on Delta for a long time to keep those flights, they weren't the only ones.

Also, we need to consider international business travelers when traveling TO Cincy. When considering the impact of fewer international flights, it is just easier for someone coming out of Cincy to meet up with business people flying into Detroit or Atlanta or (especially) New York, where the international flights come into the country. That's lost spending in the Cincy area. International businesses looking for a base in America would need an international airport, with ease of transport, back and forth. Cincy doesn't have that anymore.

I HATE dayton.

[PM Thor]

CVG is not dying. Quit being so dramatic.

And Chiquita should have left 5-7 years ago. This is not a sign of a Cincinnati apocalypse.

Why do you care anyway? You have made it clear on this board that, as an oppressed firefighter, you have very little time or money to travel, that your body will be broken by the time you are 50 thus forcing retirement, and you'll likely be dead by the age of 52. Do you really care that there is no direct flight to five European cities?

By the way, did you see that Middletown canned 9 firefighter positions? Congrats on Issue 2.

Thanks on Issue 2. The layoffs came because Kasich cut state funding to locals. If you think Issue 2 would have saved these jobs you are pretty ignorant, there wasn't even time after the election for any fiscal impact to be felt.

Why do I care about Cincy? Why do you care if I care? And have you been to CVG recently? That airport is pretty damn dead.

I HATE dayton.

[xeus]

So are you proposing direct flights from CVG to Africa and Asia and other P&G "emerging markets"?

[waggy]

Napa

[xeus]

Thanks on Issue 2. The layoffs came because Kasich cut state funding to locals. If you think Issue 2 would have saved these jobs you are pretty ignorant, there wasn't even time after the election for any fiscal impact to be felt.

Why do I care about Cincy? Why do you care if I care? And have you been to CVG recently? That airport is pretty damn dead.

I HATE dayton.

Yes, I am in and out of CVG several times a month. How often are you there?

And since you brought up the importance of the NYC market, do you know how many flights come into and out of CVG and the NYC airports every day?

I don't even know why I am getting into this with you, but what the heck.

[PM Thor]

So are you proposing direct flights from CVG to Africa and Asia and other P&G "emerging markets"?

Yes, yes that is exactly what I am proposing.

I HATE dayton.

[Kahns Krazy]

Yes, yes that is exactly what I am proposing.

I HATE dayton.

Just so I'm clear, you are opposed to subsidized transportation between downtown Cincinnati and Clifton, but you would support subsidized transportation between Hebron, Kentucky and Africa.

That makes total sense.

Next time your P&G wife says "emerging markets", ask her to define it for you so you don't sound like so much of an idiot on the message board when you regurgitate her pillow talk. Ask her about "trickle down effect" too.

[chico]

Not to get into a discussion on the corporate tax rate, but my guess is the tax rates of foreign countries and the cost of doing business there vs. here is much more important than an airline. Besides, anyone who lives near Lunken's flight path sees regular P&G flights coming and going on a regular basis.

[Pablo's Brother]

I am amazed both cvg and Dayton airport gift shops sell "come to Ohio for cow tipping" t-shirts. Word on the street this is the real reason Chiquita left.

[MADXSTER]

Not to get into a discussion on the corporate tax rate, but my guess is the tax rates of foreign countries and the cost of doing business there vs. here is much more important than an airline. Besides, anyone who lives near Lunken's flight path sees regular P&G flights coming and going on a regular basis.

The P&G executive planes fly out of Lunken. Of the many friends I have that work for P&G who fly both nationally and internationally, they all fly Delta out of CVG. Otherwise I'm not sure why they have me drop them off and pick them up at the Delta terminal.

[LA Muskie]

CVG is not dying. Quit being so dramatic.

It's all relative, but it seems pretty dead to me when I fly in 2-3 times per year. Like a ghost town.

[XU-PA]

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20111129/NEWS01/311300068/Why-Cincinnati-lost-Chiquita?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|News

Thought the enquirer analysis of how the area "lost" chiquita was interesting.
It appears the areas whiteness, expensive airport, but mostly the fact that elected officials, mostly Ohio Governor Kasich were pretty stupid, led to the downfall.
Interesting that Mallory's picture leads the story,,,, but his role appeared to be pretty small, was equal to the lack of action by Ham Co.
The economy being what it is, now is the time states, cities, counties, are going to step up negotiations like this. Politicians interested in actually serving the interests of their citizens will start working to attract companies, and perhaps even harder to retain the ones they have. Ohio really missed the boat. Kasich's effort, lack of effort, should piss alot of people off, and is a shaky signal for the future.

[coasterville95]

I think it's telling that the CVG airports big marketing campaign is "Business flyes through CVG".

I think they fully realize they have lost a huge chunk of liesure travel to the likes of Dayton , Columbus, Indy, and Lousiville, all within a comfy 2 hour drive. What's left are business travelers flying on expense accounts and companies whose ability to get staff from one site to another quickly and conveniently outweighs the high fare premiums of CVG.

How can you not say the airport is shrinking: They closed Terminal 1 some time ago, they have or are about to close Terminal 2 (and move those flights to Terminal 3 - Concourse A) - Delta, which used to pretty much own Terminal 3, shuttered the newest part of the airport (Terminal 3 - Concourse C, and then A)

And even with consoidating everything into one terminal, it still never feels as crowded as it did in its heydey (right before 9/11).

I just flew last month on liesure - used Dayton (sorry PM Thor). Saved $100+ per ticket. For a family of 4 that is serious savings, and easily outweighs the opportunity cost of having to driive, what an extra 30-50 miles each way, and the extra 2-4 gallons of gas. Not to mention parking is comparable. Food concessions are iffy, but that's a small price to pay. And you can say: Best part of going to Dayton - Leaving. Noted no Dayton Flyers stuff in airport gift shop, plenty of tOSU stuff.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I just flew last month on liesure - used Dayton (sorry PM Thor). Saved $100+ per ticket. For a family of 4 that is serious savings, and easily outweighs the opportunity cost of having to driive, what an extra 30-50 miles each way, and the extra 2-4 gallons of gas. Not to mention parking is comparable. Food concessions are iffy, but that's a small price to pay. And you can say: Best part of going to Dayton - Leaving. Noted no Dayton Flyers stuff in airport gift shop, plenty of tOSU stuff.

I just flew a week and a half ago to Newark. Flew out of Louisville, saved $255 round trip and it was a direct flight. The flight out of Cincy that was $255 more was a connector through Charlotte.

[boozehound]

Yes, yes that is exactly what I am proposing.

I HATE dayton.

I'm not sure who you want to operate these flights. Delta? Some other airline?

From what I understand Southwest airlines coming to CVG is all but a done deal, so that will increase overall air traffic, but I don't think that they are going to be flying to Africa.

Cincinnati is no longer a hub. When Delta and Northwest merged they moved the Delta hub in Cincinnati to Detroit, where Northwest already had a major hub. One of them was going to lost hub status and the associated flights. It ended up being CVG.

It seems far more reasonable to me to request more direct flights to major US cities than th want direct flights to Africa and other 'emerging markets'. I'm sure if there was enough demand those flights would exist. I don't think any airline wants to operate half empty flights to Africa.

The problem was that CVG sold out so much to keep Delta there for as long as they did. Delta owned most of the gates and wouldn't release them after they pulled out of Cincinnati because they didn't want another major airline to move in and compete with them. They have had airlines interested in adding flights but they couldn't get Delta to release the gates. CVG's best bet is to get another airline to have a significant presence at CVG as a secondary hub.

[bourbonman]

Interesting thread. I fly a lot and live by the motto, why connect when you can fly direct. Flying in/out of Louisville is difficult to be direct almost anywhere, so used CVG for west coast and European travel all the time. Hate to see the ghost town even the active Delta terminal has become. I miss the numerous options of flying direct to long distance locations.

Heard over a year ago that either Southwest or Jet Blue were considering entering into the CVG market in a serious way. Anyone else heard this?

[bourbonman]

...From what I understand Southwest airlines coming to CVG is all but a done deal, so that will increase overall air traffic, ...

You posted this while I was typing. Thought i heard this. Will be interesting to see the locations they fly to. Hopefully some long hauls involved.

[Kahns Krazy]

The P&G executive planes fly out of Lunken. Of the many friends I have that work for P&G who fly both nationally and internationally, they all fly Delta out of CVG. Otherwise I'm not sure why they have me drop them off and pick them up at the Delta terminal.

That's not possible. Thor says they all fly United now. It was a business move. Read between the lines, dummy.

[chico]

The P&G executive planes fly out of Lunken. Of the many friends I have that work for P&G who fly both nationally and internationally, they all fly Delta out of CVG. Otherwise I'm not sure why they have me drop them off and pick them up at the Delta terminal.

Oh, I know. The point about Lunken was that at least the higher ups have a very convenient way to travel which is not going anywhere, so there are no travel worries for them. A lot of P&G'ers have been flying out of Dayton for a long time, anyway. In fact, it helped spring up a little cottage industry of vans transporting people from downtown to the Dayton airport.

[GoMuskies]

Oh, I know. The point about Lunken was that at least the higher ups have a very convenient way to travel which is not going anywhere, so there are no travel worries for them.

Those private planes generally don't go international, though. So they're still flying to Chicago or NYC or Atlanta to get on a commercial plane if they're flying international.

[PM Thor]

The P&G executive planes fly out of Lunken. Of the many friends I have that work for P&G who fly both nationally and internationally, they all fly Delta out of CVG. Otherwise I'm not sure why they have me drop them off and pick them up at the Delta terminal.
This has changed, just ask them, Delta is no longer the preferred option. Sure, Delta services more than United, So they still use them, but its not the first choice if they have one. It's United now. It speaks to how Deltas decrease in flights has had an impact. Also, it would be great to have all the execs fly out of Lunken, but obviously that's not possible.

The question I raise is, is CVG hurting business in the area or not?

I HATE dayton.

[Porkopolis]

The question I raise is, is CVG hurting business in the area or not?

It certainly isn't helping. We need some other airlines to join in at CVG and drive fares down.

[coasterville95]

I like a direct flight to, and if it were just me, I will sometimes pay the extra to fly direct. When I am traveling with people whose primary consideration is $$$ above all else, well, that's a different story.

Connections anymore are risky. You may as well slice a half hour off the connection time, since that's when the airlne would really like you aboard the second flight. I've had "You have an hour to connect" turn into "Your next flight leaves in 10 minutes, did we mention it's in an entirely different part of the airport" Speaking of connections, the sentence an air traveler hates to hear "You'll be connecting through Newark." I hate that airport with a passion. Ddin't help last time I was there, we were stuck on the tarmack for so long, that after the pilot explained to us exactly what the hold up was, and his thoughts on it, he advised the flight attendants to show us a movie, we're going to be here awhile.

What I won't get is the airlien pricing model, if smoebody could explain that to me, I'd be grateful. I know their model is to get people, and their bags, from point A to point B as inexpesnively as possible. What I don't get is the way fares are set with a pogo stick. Get a price quote on Monday - $250, check back Tuesday $300, check back Wednesday - $275, check back Thursday - $250, check back Friday - $400. I know this is an extreme example, but it's the kind of thing the industry is known for.

But the one that blows my mind is when the price to connect via a small airport (let's call it Dayton), is $200 less than the price to fly direct out of the big airport (let's call it Cincinnati). when the connection for the Dayton flght is: Cincinnati! So now wait - I am not only paying $200 less for my long haul segments, but you have to cart me and my luggage on a short haul segment, to/from Dayton, for essentially nothing?

This all after airlines have taken away everbit of glamour and almost all frills out of flying, and what frills are left, come at "per use service/convenice fees" I remember somebody telling me he heard somebody speaking in 1980 (back when only about 15% of Americans had taken an airine flight, and the airlines were in their glory days for presenting a glamrous product), that to "Watch, in 10-15 years, 85% of Americans will have taken an airline flgiht, and the passenger experience will be akin to taking a Greyhound Bus." He's not far off.

But I digress - I have to think the market dictates the flight schedule. If you could show to an airline that 200-250 people per day need to fly both to and from Africa, then there would be that service available. All those flights to/from Europe (mostly) we had recently are nice to have, but what was the ridership? When you say there are no more International flights, that could mean the customs station could close down, also saving the airport some expense.

Totally agree with you about the airport not aggresively going after budget carriers. Did Delta finally release those gates? I knew they were paying gate rental on gates they never intended to use, just to ice out budget carriers. Or when a budget carrier did come along - Delta would loss-leader flights to the same cities the budget carrier was serving. "Why fly El Cheapo Airline for $49, when you can fly a trusted leader, Delta, for $39?"

[chico]

Those private planes generally don't go international, though. So they're still flying to Chicago or NYC or Atlanta to get on a commercial plane if they're flying international.

Yes but the nice thing is you drive right up and away you go. 10-15 minute drive max, no parking issues, no security checkpoints to pass through, no baggage claim. I know for international flights it may cause some issues but for domestic flights it's pretty convenient.

[Kahns Krazy]

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20111129/NEWS01/311300068/Why-Cincinnati-lost-Chiquita?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|News

Thought the enquirer analysis of how the area "lost" chiquita was interesting.
It appears the areas whiteness, expensive airport, but mostly the fact that elected officials, mostly Ohio Governor Kasich were pretty stupid, led to the downfall..

It is 100% impossible to determine that from what the enquirer is reporting. You can't just compare "incentive packages" on a gross dollar basis and have any concept of what the net impact to Chiquita is. State corporate taxes vary widely. It's not clear from anything I've read what time period the incentives cover, or even that they are equal periods. My guess is that they are not. It's cheap reporting.

The enquirer also did this recently when they broke the earth shattering news that a property tax rollback of 2.5% provides bigger "rebates" to people who own more expensive homes. They left out the analysis of how much more wealthy people pay in sales taxes in a given year, but comprehensive reporting seems to be a thing of the past.

[LadyMuskie]

Lady, there's no cloak and dagger aspect to it. P&G used to use Delta as their preferred airline and it was that way for about a decade. They recently changed to United. It's not too hard to read between the lines on this, it was a business move due to the loss of flights from CVG. P&G was putting pressure on Delta for a long time to keep those flights, they weren't the only ones.

Also, we need to consider international business travelers when traveling TO Cincy. When considering the impact of fewer international flights, it is just easier for someone coming out of Cincy to meet up with business people flying into Detroit or Atlanta or (especially) New York, where the international flights come into the country. That's lost spending in the Cincy area. International businesses looking for a base in America would need an international airport, with ease of transport, back and forth. Cincy doesn't have that anymore.

I HATE dayton.

You're wrong about United. P&G does not endorse an airline by making one preferred. I asked several friends to find out. They fly the airline that provides the flight they need. Two friends flew to Europe two weeks ago (separately) and they flew Delta. In fact, the one friend said he's only flown Delta all of 2011. If P&G is pushing an airline from Cincinnati, then he is unaware of it.

As for connecting international flights, I would say this: I've been to Europe 5 times. Every time I've gone was before 2001 and the downward spiral of the airline industry. While I didn't travel as a business person, I was on each of my flights with many business people and we had lay overs in Chicago, JFK in New York, St. Louis, D.C., and Boston before flying on to France, England, Switzerland or Italy. So, I've never flown directly overseas from CVG. I've also never returned home directly to CVG from Europe. All of these flights took place when CVG was still a Delta hub, so what was the issue then? Why weren't our flights direct if Delta was our hub and if P&G and other companies were putting pressure on the airlines flying out of CVG?

[MADXSTER]

Those private planes generally don't go international, though. So they're still flying to Chicago or NYC or Atlanta to get on a commercial plane if they're flying international.

This is absolutely incorrect. I know one of the pilots and he flies all over the world. I'm actually surprised how often he flies to the middle east.

[GoMuskies]

These guys are flying Gulfstreams all over the world from Lunken? That's very surprising. And ridiculously expensive.

My company is about equal in size to P&G, has a nice fleet of charter jets and has a ton of overseas business as well....and NO ONE flies private overseas.

[PM Thor]

You're wrong about United. P&G does not endorse an airline by making one preferred. I asked several friends to find out. They fly the airline that provides the flight they need. Two friends flew to Europe two weeks ago (separately) and they flew Delta. In fact, the one friend said he's only flown Delta all of 2011. If P&G is pushing an airline from Cincinnati, then he is unaware of it.

As for connecting international flights, I would say this: I've been to Europe 5 times. Every time I've gone was before 2001 and the downward spiral of the airline industry. While I didn't travel as a business person, I was on each of my flights with many business people and we had lay overs in Chicago, JFK in New York, St. Louis, D.C., and Boston before flying on to France, England, Switzerland or Italy. So, I've never flown directly overseas from CVG. I've also never returned home directly to CVG from Europe. All of these flights took place when CVG was still a Delta hub, so what was the issue then? Why weren't our flights direct if Delta was our hub and if P&G and other companies were putting pressure on the airlines flying out of CVG?

Well, I'll answer you this way. While Delta is being used, if there are multiple flights available, Delta isn't the first choice, no longer the preferred carrier, and I'll leave it at that.
As for your second part, how am I supposed to answer why people werent using the direct London to CVG or Paris, or Frankfort direct flights? Maybe their schedules didn't coincide with the flights, maybe they got better deals going through other cities.

Look, it's obvious that direct international flights to CVG wasn't a money maker for Delta, and that's why they have basically gone away. What I am saying is that it does have a negative impact on business here, I'm pretty sure people can agree to that.

I HATE dayton.

[Kahns Krazy]

Look, it's obvious that direct international flights to CVG wasn't a money maker for Delta, and that's why they have basically gone away. What I am saying is that it does have a negative impact on business here, I'm pretty sure people can agree to that.

I HATE dayton.

Your ignorance of the real corporate world issues is limitless. As Boozehound already mentioned, the change in the CVG/Delta relationship is a function of the Delta/Northwest merger, not that international flights from CVG weren't a money maker for Delta.

I don't agree with your statement that a reduction in nonstop international CVG flights is bad for business here. You are basing your statement on (1) your wife and (2) Chiquita leaving. Chiquita is one example of a company that might benefit from more international flights. What are the others? If Chiquita takes their 300 jobs to Charlotte, and Neilsen backfills them with 600 jobs, is that bad for business? Do you have any ablility at all to see big pictures beyond what affects you directly?

[LadyMuskie]

I'm still going to have disagree with you about the United preference. My husband flew out of CVG Sunday night. At the time he left he could choose between a United flight and Delta flight. After flying United the last time he went to D.C., he refused to fly United again if it could be avoided, so he chose the Delta flight. My husband doesn't work for P&G, but he sat next to and in front of a group of P&G employees who worked in the same department as a friend of ours. When I talked to my husband Sunday night when he landed he said they were all laughing about what a dump the United terminal at CVG is, among other things. My husband being new to traveling this frequently, said he found out some great tips from the P&G guys about flying Delta from CVG.

Now, 4 people on the Sunday night flight, plus the people we know personally (which number about a dozen) who work for P&G don't provide an adequate sample size, but I'd feel comfortable saying that there are people within P&G who are either unaware of this United preference, or just don't care about it. Either way, I don't think that CVG is this detriment to business in Cincinnati.

There's a lot wrong with Cincinnati and Hamilton County, and there's plenty of blame to go around. Hell, the entire state is screwed up from top to bottom. I think that the way CVG is now is more representative of the problems with leadership in the city and county, than it is representative of CVG causing the problems in the city and county. I think if the leaders we have get their proverbial s**t together, then the airport would grow right along with it - among other things. I think to blame CVG for our area losing jobs and businesses is like saying it was the iceberg's fault for jumping out in front of the Titanic causing it to sink. If the captain would've been a better captain the iceberg would've been avoided altogether. Know what I mean?

[xeus]

Look, it's obvious that direct international flights to CVG wasn't a money maker for Delta, and that's why they have basically gone away. What I am saying is that it does have a negative impact on business here, I'm pretty sure people can agree to that.

I HATE dayton.

There was so little demand for direct international flights that Delta did away with them, yet at the same time there is so much demand that the lack of these flights has a negative impact on business in Cincinnati?

What is the "negative impact"? Can you substantiate that at all, or is this more of your "people will die if we cut the fire dept budget" style of argument?

[boozehound]

Those private planes generally don't go international, though. So they're still flying to Chicago or NYC or Atlanta to get on a commercial plane if they're flying international.

Not true, at least not in the case of P&G. P&G flys jets out of Lunken all over the world, including Asia. Sometimes they have to stop to refuel (Usually in Alaska for the longer Asia trips) but they do fly them everywhere.

EDIT: Sorry about that. I didn't realize that somebody had already made the comment.

[Kahns Krazy]

These guys are flying Gulfstreams all over the world from Lunken? That's very surprising. And ridiculously expensive.

My company is about equal in size to P&G, has a nice fleet of charter jets and has a ton of overseas business as well....and NO ONE flies private overseas.

This could be a function of your charter agreement, the number of people traveling to the same location, or the relative positions of the people doing the traveling (e.g. salesperson vs. CEO). It's possible your cost structure is substantially different than P&G's even with the similar size.

[GoMuskies]

Our CEO doesn't take the Gulfstream overseas (which I was very surprised to learn, by the way; just for the security issues alone). Different strokes for different folks. I'm rethinking my P&G stock ownership, though.

[boozehound]

I'm still going to have disagree with you about the United preference. My husband flew out of CVG Sunday night. At the time he left he could choose between a United flight and Delta flight. After flying United the last time he went to D.C., he refused to fly United again if it could be avoided, so he chose the Delta flight. My husband doesn't work for P&G, but he sat next to and in front of a group of P&G employees who worked in the same department as a friend of ours. When I talked to my husband Sunday night when he landed he said they were all laughing about what a dump the United terminal at CVG is, among other things. My husband being new to traveling this frequently, said he found out some great tips from the P&G guys about flying Delta from CVG.

Now, 4 people on the Sunday night flight, plus the people we know personally (which number about a dozen) who work for P&G don't provide an adequate sample size, but I'd feel comfortable saying that there are people within P&G who are either unaware of this United preference, or just don't care about it. Either way, I don't think that CVG is this detriment to business in Cincinnati.


A 'preferred airline' means very little really at any of the companies I have worked for. It basically just means that if there is a Delta flight and a United flight at around the same time for around the same price you are supposed to take United. If you really want to take Delta for some reason (Skymiles, perhaps) you can almost always find a reason not to take the preferred flight. Maybe they are switching their 'preferred' airline as part of a deal to get more United flights to CVG?

I fly a few times a month for work and I almost always fly Delta. Not because I like it, or because it is my company's preferred airline, but because they have the most flights. If United had the best flights for me then I would fly United, but unless things have changed recently there are very few United flights. I just want to get where I am going as quickly and directly as possible and will fly whatever airline accomodates that.

[PM Thor]

There was so little demand for direct international flights that Delta did away with them, yet at the same time there is so much demand that the lack of these flights has a negative impact on business in Cincinnati?

What is the "negative impact"?
It's not about demand exactly. It's more a matter of convenience and usefulness to local businesses. Having direct flights is a selling point that can be used to promote the area, so saying that there wasn't a big demand doesn't necessarily equate to not having a negative impact on business in Cincy. If you were an international business looking for an office in the US, would you favor a city with a direct flight or one that needs a connector? (I know, overly simplistic). The continued downgrading of CVG and the loss of international flights is a negative impact by putting the area at a disadvantage to towns that do have more international flights. Chiquita is the most high profile example of this, but in terms of creating new international jobs here, or moving international jobs from elsewhere, CVG is not helping. It used to be a selling point, but now it is being used against Cincy when competing for jobs.

I am not blaming Delta for cutting those flights, not at all. The issue isn't being addressed quickly enough though, even if both Kentucky and Ohio governors recently said that they would.

Oh and Lady, you are right, kind of. United is the preferred carrier to Europe, not all flights. Mea culpa. But P&G actually did put pressure on Delta directly to increase their European flights, this happened back in the late '90s. P&G organized it's own Euro-shuttle, it was called Imaginair and flew to Brussels 4 times a week. They did it to counter the high prices they had to pay out of CVG. In response Delta didn't do a damn thing and Imaginair failed miserably. But they did pressure Delta pretty directly back in the day.

I HATE dayton.

[boozehound]

It's not about demand exactly. It's more a matter of convenience and usefulness to local businesses. Having direct flights is a selling point that can be used to promote the area, so saying that there wasn't a big demand doesn't necessarily equate to not having a negative impact on business in Cincy. If you were an international business looking for an office in the US, would you favor a city with a direct flight or one that needs a connector? (I know, overly simplistic). The continued downgrading of CVG and the loss of international flights is a negative impact by putting the area at a disadvantage to towns that do have more international flights. Chiquita is the most high profile example of this, but in terms of creating new international jobs here, or moving international jobs from elsewhere, CVG is not helping. It used to be a selling point, but now it is being used against Cincy when competing for jobs.

I am not blaming Delta for cutting those flights, not at all. The issue isn't being addressed quickly enough though, even if both Kentucky and Ohio governors recently said that they would.



I see what you are saying, to a degree, but I don't know what you want to do about it and who you think should pay for it.

The facts are that there are basically no direct international flights from CVG anymore. If the demand was there such that an airline could run profitable direct international flights you would think that they would do so, assuming that there are gates available the aren't already owned by other airlines.

Who should subsidize airlines running unprofitable international flights from CVG? I don't dispute that having more flights, and more international flights, flying out of CVG would be a good thing for the area. I'm just not sure who you think should pay for it.

I do think that we are going to see changes soon at CVG. They (somewhat) recently successfully negotiated with Delta to release many of the gates that they have 'held hostage' for quite some time now. For a long time Delta owned gates (and I think concourses as well) that were not being used. Airlines had inquired about leasing those gates from Delta but Delta held on to them to limit competition so that they could charge higher ticket prices out of CVG. That is part of the reason why no other airlines have a major presence at CVG.

I don't know what you want Kentucky and Ohio governors to do about a bad agreement that an airport entered into with Delta years ago.

[PM Thor]

Booze, I'm not for a subsidy of international flights. I am pointing out that with the loss of those flights, it's hurting local business. Should Cincy get another big international carrier to come in? That would be great, but at what cost? Maybe we should just get used to the idea that it was an overreach for Cincy to have a hub with so many flights here. Will the governors sell the farm to get a big carrier here, in order to promote the region, I guess we shall see.

I HATE dayton.

[xeus]

It's not about demand exactly.


Well you are the one who said Delta got rid of those flights because they weren't a money maker.

[XU 87]

My firm was thinking about opening an office in Namibia but once we found out Delta offered no direct flights there we stopped the process.

[zanesxu]

lotta topics and opinions already stated on this thread, I'll try to add value.

As an employee of P&G for more than 6 years, I feel my perspective might be helpful regarding the Chiquita move, what it means to P&G and then this whole Delta vis-a-vis other carriers. However, working at P&G does not mean I am the absolute authority on the matter - leave that for Mr. McDonald.

Corporate HQ Re-Locations - There are many stakeholders to take into consideration when making any corporate-wide decision - consumers, customers, employees, stock-holders, the surrounding community, local/state/federal government, competitors, etc.. The stakeholders are, however, elements to consider while the determining factor for any publicly traded company remains, return on shareholder investment. Chiquita moved to Charlotte due to improving shareholder return. P&G has moved the HQ of Baby Care from Cincinnati to Singapore, Hair Care from Cincinnati to Geneva (both public information) for the same reasons. Moving the operations and leadership from a place of higher corporate tax burden to lower improves shareholder return.

I agree that it should not be the burden of Cincinnati tax payers to incrementally increase their taxes to keep a corporation like Chiquita. That's like asking someone who's just given plasma to turn around and give blood again. Local government should answer the question what is our plan to continue making Cincinnati a competitive and attractive location for small/mid/large cap corporations.

While the figure of an average annual salary of $107K across 100-300 employees seems high, we might be dealing with a 'mean' salary vs. 'median'... read: the CEO's relocation and total compensation of 7-8 figures pulls up the administrative assistant's hourly wage. Regardless, it's important to remember that however you measure the average, those are real dollars leaving the Tri-State economy, beyond just taxable income. Those salaries are spent on cars, food, entertainment here; even with Nielson backfilling, it's a net zero at best, which is not economic growth. Additionally, Chiquita likely has area suppliers, agencies and other B2B partners that will likely relocate, which also equates to more jobs, dollars, etc..

Bottom Line, whether it's Cincinnati's fault or if it's a bad thing for Cincinnati isn't the issue. It happened, it's not the end of the Tri-State economy, but it's not a good thing and our government leaders should take it as an opportunity to learn from it and ultimately make Cincinnati stronger.

Delta / International Travel / Etc. - P&G changed our policy from Delta being the ONLY preferred carrier to Delta and United BOTH being preferred carriers. Ultimately this change affects employees like this: when booking travel, I get a slightly better rate vs. non-P&G employees both on Delta and United Flights and I now no longer have to check a box on my expense reports that I have my manager's approval for booking with a (formerly) non-P&G preferred airline.

The Corporate Jet Topic - While I'm no P&G corporate jet policy expert, the commonly understood policy is that when there is a quorum of P&G employees and resources (read, employees with higher salaries, because time is money and senior leadership's time equals more money based on their salary) flying to a common location and the savings for our private transportation significantly outweighs the cost of commercial, we do it. Think of college recruiting trips where we fly a bunch of folks often including the CEO; an entire brand team meeting with Wal-Mart execs, etc.. The Corporate Jet is more often used by executives because as mentioned, their time is more valuable to the company and it maximizes the money we pay them to be able to be working in confidential and quite surroundings on the corporate jet vs. getting x-rayed and taking their socks off in the CVG TSA queue line. I say this because yes, while I imagine usage of the corporate jet to from Cincinnati to Brazil is rare, I also would hope, as a shareholder, if it makes financial and market sense (and imagining that in some of our *emerging markets*, executive safety is a greater concern than it is domestically), international use of the corporate jet is used.

hope this helps clarify at least a bit...

[chico]

Well you are the one who said Delta got rid of those flights because they weren't a money maker.

Maybe we have it all backwards. We should be blaming Chiquita and P&G for not taking enough international flights to keep Delta here.

Unfortunately, the deal the airport made with Delta rivals the deal the county made with the Bengals. The only exception being the airport did not have to reimburse Delta for empty seats on their flights.

[boozehound]

Cincinnati is on notice. With the continual downgrading of CVG, international companies will seek, and most likely get, greener pastures elsewhere. Fewer international flights is killing CVG, and the ripple effect is being felt throughout the area. Hundreds of jobs are being lost because of this move, a huge swath of downtown office space is being vacated. Granted, the massive incentive package definitely helped ($20 million from the state and $2 million from locals) but I honestly believe that Chiquita started looking originally because CVG has drastically cut back it's international flights. And yes, I am looking directly at P&G and some of their departments. (no P&G would not leave Cincy altogether, but its global HQ would have no problem moving to Singapore while leaving the north American hub here)

I HATE dayton.


Booze, I'm not for a subsidy of international flights. I am pointing out that with the loss of those flights, it's hurting local business. Should Cincy get another big international carrier to come in? That would be great, but at what cost? Maybe we should just get used to the idea that it was an overreach for Cincy to have a hub with so many flights here. Will the governors sell the farm to get a big carrier here, in order to promote the region, I guess we shall see.

I HATE dayton.

So then you would admit that, at a minimum, your original post on this topic (above) was a bit sensationalist? Huge swaths of office space? P&G moving global HQ to Singapore?

I don't think that anyone would argue that it would be nice to have more flights out of CVG. Beyond that I'm not really sure where you were going with this thread.

[PM Thor]

Well you are the one who said Delta got rid of those flights because they weren't a money maker.
Yeah, because they are two separate ideas. For Delta, it's all about the bottom line and if they were money makers. For local businesses, it's more about the accessibility of the region. These are not one in the same.


So then you would admit that, at a minimum, your original post on this topic (above) was a bit sensationalist? Huge swaths of office space? P&G moving global HQ to Singapore?

I don't think that anyone would argue that it would be nice to have more flights out of CVG. Beyond that I'm not really sure where you were going with this thread.

No, not sensationalist, kind of arbitrary I guess. I'll admit that part in reference to P&G. As for a "huge swath" of office space being vacated? It is being vacated. Yes, Chiquita is being replaced in that building by Nielsen, but those are not new positions, they are just crossing the river and in terms of "new" spending in the area, it doesn't create any new infusion. It doesn't create anything in the region, it just replaces Kentucky with Ohio for where their offices are. Good for Ohio, bad for Kentucky, no difference to the area as a whole.

As for why I started this thread, it's because I am concerned about the direction that CVG is taking, and how it is affecting the area. I thought that with the loss of Chiquita, and their response to why they left, it was a valid concern.

I HATE dayton.

[American X]

I always thought Cincinnati was a silly place to grow bananas.

[bobbiemcgee]

This thread is driving me bananas.

[Tardy Turtle]

This thread is Driving Miss Daisy.

[DC Muskie]

What a weird premise...should DC expect a whole new influx of jobs because we have two airports that can fly internationally?

I'm not sure people understand that there are fewer flights everywhere, so what is so different about what is going on Cincinnati?

I don't know much about the situation, but reading the Enquirer article it seemed like Chiquita wanted to leave because their wasn't enough "diversity."

I'm pretty sure Cincinnati will be fine.

[xeus]

Yeah, because they are two separate ideas. For Delta, it's all about the bottom line and if they were money makers. For local businesses, it's more about the accessibility of the region. These are not one in the same.

Do you think it shouldn't be all about the bottom line for Delta? Are they supposed to "take one for the team" and offer direct international flights that lose money? The point is that there is clearly not enough demand to make those flights profitable. Why is that Delta's fault?





As for why I started this thread, it's because I am concerned about the direction that CVG is taking, and how it is affecting the area. I thought that with the loss of Chiquita, and their response to why they left, it was a valid concern.

I HATE dayton.

How is it "affecting the area" Thor? I would love some examples. Chiquita left because someone gave them a sweet deal and they had one foot out the door anyway. How Chiquita leaving is CVG's or Delta's fault is beyond me.

[Kahns Krazy]

As for why I started this thread, it's because I am concerned about the direction that CVG is taking, and how it is affecting the area. I thought that with the loss of Chiquita, and their response to why they left, it was a valid concern.
B]

Other than Chiquita, which may or may not be partially due to the CVG situation, how is the change at CVG affecting the area?

Hah, silly me. Why am I even bothering with rational questions? I realize you are acting like you still have me blocked, so you have an excuse to not respond to me. That's handy for you since you rarely have an answer to my questions. The thing is, you shouldn't have "reported" one of my posts to the mods if you truly weren't reading them.

The fun part for me is that you now can't possibly respond to this post without looking like a complete toolbox. I have good news for you though. Nothing you could possibly post in this thread could make you appear any worse. The fact that you are suddenly holding yourself out to be some expert in regional commerce, P&G headquarter relocation analysis and international business travel is far more laughable than when you try to convince anyone that your union is about safety and not money.

Please, go back to being a union parrot and leave the real business to the real business people.

[DC Muskie]

I never understood the mentality of "Buy our product, or we will go out of business." That doesn't excite me to purchase your product.

If people are not flying out of Kentucky to London, England, why in the world would delta magically start creating flights from Kentucky to London?

And if a company leaves for a lack of flights to London, I sure as hell hope there are better reasons.

And now I have to go back and throw up.

[Lamont Sanford]

I blame George Bush!

[PM Thor]

Do you think it shouldn't be all about the bottom line for Delta? Are they supposed to "take one for the team" and offer direct international flights that lose money? The point is that there is clearly not enough demand to make those flights profitable. Why is that Delta's fault?

How is it "affecting the area" Thor? I would love some examples. Chiquita left because someone gave them a sweet deal and they had one foot out the door anyway. How Chiquita leaving is CVG's or Delta's fault is beyond me.

Where did I say that it's Deltas fault for Chiquita leaving? Where did I say that Delta had an obligation to keep unprofitable international flights? I said neither, stop overreaching. I said that with the shrinking of CVG, it has repercussions, Chiquita is the high profile example of it. Obviously it wasn't the only reason, and I never said it was either. But if you doubt me, just read what the CEO of Chiquita had to say about it. Even today he said that Ohio is more interested in bringing new companies into Ohio over retaining the ones already here. With that being said, a regional airport will be at a significant disadvantage to an international airport when a city is trying to attract new business. Would you agree with that Xeus?

So you want me to cite specific other examples outside of the Chiquita example, as to how a downgraded CVG is affecting local business? Ok, so here you go, my second link if you please.

I HATE dayton.

http://communitypress.cincinnati.com/article/AB/20111129/BIZ01/111300322/Aguirre-Ohio-just-came-up-really-short-?odyssey=nav%7Chead
http://www.ultimateairshuttle.com/2011/09/wall-street-journal-changing-aviation-in-cincinnati/

[chico]

Where did I say that it's Deltas fault for Chiquita leaving? Where did I say that Delta had an obligation to keep unprofitable international flights? I said neither, stop overreaching. I said that with the shrinking of CVG, it has repercussions, Chiquita is the high profile example of it. Obviously it wasn't the only reason, and I never said it was either. But if you doubt me, just read what the CEO of Chiquita had to say about it. Even today he said that Ohio is more interested in bringing new companies into Ohio over retaining the ones already here. With that being said, a regional airport will be at a significant disadvantage to an international airport when a city is trying to attract new business. Would you agree with that Xeus?

So you want me to cite specific other examples outside of the Chiquita example, as to how a downgraded CVG is affecting local business? Ok, so here you go, my second link if you please.

I HATE dayton.

http://communitypress.cincinnati.com/article/AB/20111129/BIZ01/111300322/Aguirre-Ohio-just-came-up-really-short-?odyssey=nav%7Chead
http://www.ultimateairshuttle.com/2011/09/wall-street-journal-changing-aviation-in-cincinnati/

Isn't that second "article" an advertisement for Ultimate Air Shuttle?

[PM Thor]

Yeah, sorry, I thought that you needed to sign up to view the Wall Stree Journal site to see the original story. Here is the original article. Edit. Gotta signup to view. Sorry about that. Edit edit. If you google "wall street journal changing face of aviation Cincinnati" you can find the WSJ story as the first link. For some reason it's not blocked that way.

I HATE dayton.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903374004576583022456381458.html

[Muskie]

Other than Chiquita, which may or may not be partially due to the CVG situation, how is the change at CVG affecting the area?

Hah, silly me. Why am I even bothering with rational questions? I realize you are acting like you still have me blocked, so you have an excuse to not respond to me. That's handy for you since you rarely have an answer to my questions. The thing is, you shouldn't have "reported" one of my posts to the mods if you truly weren't reading them.

The fun part for me is that you now can't possibly respond to this post without looking like a complete toolbox. I have good news for you though. Nothing you could possibly post in this thread could make you appear any worse. The fact that you are suddenly holding yourself out to be some expert in regional commerce, P&G headquarter relocation analysis and international business travel is far more laughable than when you try to convince anyone that your union is about safety and not money.

Please, go back to being a union parrot and leave the real business to the real business people.

Last warning. No personal attacks on other posters. That goes for everyone.

[xu95]

Last warning. No personal attacks on other posters. That goes for everyone.

Especially me. I have a very sensitive psyche.

xu95

[Smooth]

Especially me. I have a very sensitive psyche.

xu95

Pussy.

[xeus]

Pussy.

We'll allow that one.

[Strange Brew]

Personally, I think Chiquita is bananas for leaving. :D

[American X]

Last warning. No personal attacks on other posters. That goes for everyone.

We're not taking orders from some Commie Purdue lover.

Go choke on a banana.

[PM Thor]

I forgot about someone being a Purdue fan....but I believe I made my point on the impact of CVG for the area due to the lack of response.

I HATE dayton.

[Fred Garvin 2.0]

I blame Muskie for having a chilling effect on what had become my favorite thread.

[xeus]

...but I believe I made my point on the impact of CVG for the area due to the lack of response.

I HATE dayton.

The lack of response is because you were whining to the moderators about people being too mean to you. You didn't make any point whatsoever.

[waggy]

Dude.

[PM Thor]

The lack of response is because you were whining to the moderators about people being too mean to you. You didn't make any point whatsoever.

Yeah, I didnt make the point. The Wall Street Journal did. You asked for examples other than Chiquita, I provided them with the WSJ article specifically addressing how CVG is hurting the region. Thus, instead of addressing what I brought up, you deflect. I thought you were better than that.
Maybe you shouldn't be a moderator if you are going to act so childish and maybe you should not let things bother you so much. Just sayin'. I mean, that's the exact reason why I expressly asked to stop moderating, because on some subjects (SB5), I let things get to me and I didn't want to abuse the moderating position. Apparently you don't concern yourself with that kind of stuff. To each his own.

Yes I am lecturing a moderator. This usually ends well.

I HATE dayton.

[nuts4xu]

This shit is BANANAS!!

B-A-N-A-N-A-S!!

[xeus]

Thor, don't complain about people's responses, thus evoking a moderator warning, and then gloat that you "made your point" based on the lack of responses. That's cheap. And you know better.

Now... We have a big game today. I am going to eat a banana and get my game face on. LET'S GO X!

[PM Thor]

To be fair, I wasn't gloating about Kahns. I don't care what he has to say. I was gloating about you. And you still haven't refuted the other examples I brought up through he WSJ article. Instead, you go red herring on it, moderator style.
So I'll directly ask you Xeus, are those examples good enough for you or not?

I HATE dayton.

[xeus]

Thor, I am done here.

I have my game face on. LET'S GO X!

[PM Thor]

Yeah so am I. After today's game, I couldn't argue with Hitler if I wanted to, just too happy with the miracle.

I HATE dayton.

[DC Muskie]

That comeback was bananas.

[jwmann2]

If people were demanding international flights, the airports would have them. This is the reason they have direct flights to LA, New York and Chicago daily.
Proctor and Gamble and Kroger are not going anywhere. Sad to see so many jobs lost at Chiquita.

[PM Thor]

Don't look now, but P&G just moved some of their top money making departments headquarters to....Singapore. Pretty much like how I wrote would happen a half year ago.

Guess I do have my finger on the pulse like Kahns said. Yes, Im gloating and poking the bees nest.

I HATE dayton.

[boozehound]

Don't look now, but P&G just moved some of their top money making departments headquarters to....Singapore. Pretty much like how I wrote would happen a half year ago.

Guess I do have my finger on the pulse like Kahns said. Yes, Im gloating and poking the bees nest.

I HATE dayton.

They are moving baby care to the part of the world where more babies are being born.

[GuyFawkes38]

Don't look now, but P&G just moved some of their top money making departments headquarters to....Singapore. Pretty much like how I wrote would happen a half year ago.

Guess I do have my finger on the pulse like Kahns said. Yes, Im gloating and poking the bees nest.

I HATE dayton.

Why on earth did they move the departments to Singapore? The busiest airport in the world is Atlanta Hartsfield Jackson. Atlanta is still a thriving Delta hub. Those P&G execs need to hire Thor.

[Snipe]

They are moving baby care to the part of the world where more babies are being born.

Singapore has one of the lowest birth rates in the world, at a little over 1 child for every woman.

Singapore fertility rate falls to record low (http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/1105160/1/.html)


SINGAPORE: Preliminary estimates show that Singapore's total fertility rate has dropped to a record low of 1.16 last year. This is even lower than the 1.22 in 2009, and well below the replacement rate of 2.1.

Deputy Prime Minister Wong Kan Seng said the number of new Permanent Residents in 2010, was halved from a year ago.

Mr Wong, who heads the newly formed National Population and Talent Division, revealed the numbers as he laid out the country's long-term strategy for managing population growth.

After an influx of foreigners during the boom years, the government took steps to mitigate their inflow in 2010. Criteria for PR status were tightened, while more was done to integrate new citizens.

The move comes amid growing discomfort among Singaporeans over the increased presence of foreigners in the country.

29,265 foreigners became permanent residents last year, a sharp drop from the 59,460 in 2009, and 79,200 in 2008.

The country's aging population and low fertility rate means that the government will need to tap on immigration to augment the population.

Singapore is still facing the problem of having not enough babies. Mr Wong said the government will continue to support couples' decision to get married and have children. He added authorities will aim for a pro-family environment but he also acknowledged that boosting fertility will take time.

Replacement rate is 2.1. They are barely over 1 per woman. Unless they embrace immigration, they will have a falling population.

Japan and Russia already have falling populations due to fertility rates. Most of Europe would have falling populations too, if it wasn't for the intensive Muslim immigration that causes so much strife. White people in Europe don't reproduce, and collectively that is a real problem, if you care about White people in Europe for the future. In the United States, white people will become a minority around 2040. Is was 90% in 1960. White people can't compete when it comes to fertility rates. Then again, as we all know, race is just a social construct. We are all the human race. So it doesn't matter and I applaud the decline and embrace our third world friends.

China has a one child policy, and they are going to hit a wall with the inverse pyramid that they have been dealing out for decades. Even when they relax the standards now and again for certain populations, people don't want to have more than one child because it is now part of the culture.

Think of the new Chinese culture. You have schools with hundreds of kids, and the government has had a one child policy since the 70s. Every kid in that school is an only child, and all their parents were only children. They not only have no brothers and sisters but the second generation has no aunts or uncles. Talk about social engineering. I don't think it will end well.

To people who study demographics, the world is actually projected to have less people in 2100 than they did in 2000. Like I said, already Russia and Japan have seen declining populations. That will spread. We would have a declining population if it wasn't for the Mexicans. We are going to be fine population-wise, because Mexican women in America actually have more children than women in third world Mexico.

[boozehound]

Singapore has one of the lowest birth rates in the world, at a little over 1 child for every woman.


Correct. They are looking more at China and India I think. China doesn't have a very high birth rate but they still have a lot of people which equals a lot of babies even if the individuals familes aren't having many kids. They are also increasing in wealth which means more families that can afford to buy higher-end baby care products. The point about Latin America is well taken. The only thing I can think of there is that the overall financial situation of the Latin American family is not improving at the rate it is for the Chinese which makes that market less attractive. Africa is totally screwed.

Singapore is a very clean, safe, and stable place to live which appeals to ex-pats more than moving to Bangalore India or Guangzhou (sp?) China, so I think it makes an ideal 'base of operations' for servicing India and China.

[GoMuskies]

Singapore is a very clean, safe, and stable place to live which appeals to ex-pats more than moving to Bangalore India or Guangzhou (sp?) China, so I think it makes an ideal 'base of operations' for servicing India and China.

All good thoughts, but I would assume this is a tax play at heart.

[paulxu]

All good thoughts, but I would assume this is a tax play at heart.

Go, you're just a cynic at heart.

[bobbiemcgee]

All good thoughts, but I would assume this is a tax play at heart.

Absolutely:

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2012/02/corporate_profits.html

[DC Muskie]

Is Thor saying P&G moving these departments because the airport has fewer international flights?

[PM Thor]

Is Thor saying P&G moving these departments because the airport has fewer international flights?
Of course not, but the lack of international flights didn't help either.

Those departments moved because that's where the businesses are growing, Asia. And because Singapore is pretty business friendly tax wise. Also, you can't look at Singapores birth rate as an indicator here, Hell, it's a city-state basically. But Singapore is close enough to where the business is making the most progress in Asia. No matter how much it sucks for Cincy, it's a smart move by P&G. And I wouldn't be surprised to see this trend continue.

I HATE dayton.

[PM Thor]

Oh and CVG reopened an unused concourse just recently, trying to attract new carriers. It's good to see they are trying to address the problems at hand.

I HATE dayton.

[GuyFawkes38]

Free markets, free capital, free borders, free etc....it's a beautiful thing. It limits the power of national and local governments.

Good for P&G. But it not only benefits companies. If your down on your luck and unemployed, one of the best thing you can do is to simply move. Freedom is a great thing.

[Kahns Krazy]

I have no expectation that my reply here will lead to anything positive, but I'm going to make two points for the record regardless.

1.



Cincinnati is on notice. With the continual downgrading of CVG, international companies will seek, and most likely get, greener pastures elsewhere. Fewer international flights is killing CVG, and the ripple effect is being felt throughout the area. Hundreds of jobs are being lost because of this move, a huge swath of downtown office space is being vacated. Granted, the massive incentive package definitely helped ($20 million from the state and $2 million from locals) but I honestly believe that Chiquita started looking originally because CVG has drastically cut back it's international flights. And yes, I am looking directly at P&G and some of their departments. (no P&G would not leave Cincy altogether, but its global HQ would have no problem moving to Singapore while leaving the north American hub here)
I HATE dayton.

The original post in this thread made the argument that reductions in service at CVG led directly to the Chiquita relocation, and would also lead P&G to relocate its "Global HQ" to Singapore.


Don't look now, but P&G just moved some of their top money making departments headquarters to....Singapore. Pretty much like how I wrote would happen a half year ago.

Guess I do have my finger on the pulse like Kahns said. Yes, Im gloating and poking the bees nest.

I HATE dayton.

What actually happened is that P&G has designated about 20 jobs (heads of skin care, personal care and cosmetics businesses) that were previously HQ jobs to be Singapore based jobs. The reasons cited for this move include dissapointing sales in this division and the asian market being the greatest potential growth area for these divisions. There is no mention of flight availability at CVG being a factor in this decision at all.

From P&G's earnings call 4/27:

Global Skin Care shipments were down mid single digits. Developing markets were about flat. An example of developing markets progress is the Philippines, where Olay volume grew nearly 50% and share increased over 3.5 points behind supportive Natural White sachets and increased trial and distribution, but we have some challenges in markets like China.

(1)I don't think there is any reason to believe that global skin care shipments are down 5% because the 20 people in Cincinnati can't get direct flights to Singapore.

(2)It's also laughable to claim that relocating 20 VP's out of 13,000 tri-state employees is even in the same ballpark as relocating "Global HQ" and leaving Cincinnati as a North American hub as the original post claimed.

2.
I'm having a hard time reconciling your post above,
Guess I do have my finger on the pulse like Kahns said. Yes, Im gloating and poking the bees nest. with some of your other posts from a couple months ago like:


Typical Xeus. Ever heard about a private message instead of airing all this bullshit out in the public forum? This is exactly why I don't engage with Kahns. I don't ever address him, or what he has to say, yet he continually comes after me, in every type of thread. And then here you come trotting along, backing him up, all the time.

How about you just telling him to leave me alone?

I HATE dayton.

and


I guess I just have to say it. Kahns I don't like you. I think you don't like me. As such, I am asking you to simply leave me alone. Don't respond to me, write to me, any of it. Please.

I HATE dayton.


and


I ask for one thing Kahns, and you can't even do that. Such a shame.

I HATE dayton.



Which is it Thor? Do you want me to leave you alone, or do you want to "gloat and poke the bees nest"?

[PM Thor]

I guess you can't admit that I was right about P&G, you have to spin it with cyberspeak, trying to explain away how your condescending attitude towards what I said is justified with links and the whatnot. I kept it simple, said departments would have no problems moving, and it happened. So Kahns, simple question. was I right about this and you were wrong? Or are you going to deny this too, in some condescending, look-down-your-nose kind of way again? Or are you just going to try to make it into something else? Leave it to the business people my ass.

Poke. Poke.

I HATE dayton.

[GuyFawkes38]

I guess you can't admit that I was right about P&G, you have to spin it with cyberspeak, trying to explain away how your condescending attitude towards what I said is justified with links and the whatnot. I kept it simple, said departments would have no problems moving, and it happened. So Kahns, simple question. was I right about this and you were wrong? Or are you going to deny this too, in some condescending, look-down-your-nose kind of way again? Or are you just going to try to make it into something else? Leave it to the business people my ass.

Poke. Poke.

I HATE dayton.

What is "cyberspeak"? heh. Are you going to at least try to address Kahns' argument?

[boozehound]

I guess you can't admit that I was right about P&G, you have to spin it with cyberspeak, trying to explain away how your condescending attitude towards what I said is justified with links and the whatnot. I kept it simple, said departments would have no problems moving, and it happened. So Kahns, simple question. was I right about this and you were wrong? Or are you going to deny this too, in some condescending, look-down-your-nose kind of way again? Or are you just going to try to make it into something else? Leave it to the business people my ass.

Poke. Poke.

I HATE dayton.

I don't see how anything in this thread is vindication of your original point.

You initially theorized that companies were going to leave Cincinnati because of limited flights (international in particular) from CVG. You used Chiquita as an example. Chiquita never cited anything to do with the airport as a reason for leaving.

You then dug this back up when you found out that P&G was shifting a small number of high level jobs from Cincinnati to Singapore. P&G stated reasons for the move, none of which in any way mentioned or implicated the availability of flights from CVG as a factor in the decision.

For the P&G example specifically, If you know anything about corporate relocation packages, particularly for executives and particularly for expats you would know that it is going to cost P&G way more money to move those jobs than to pay for the flights, and people having to connect on a flight to Singapore isn't a big deal and is pretty common.

I'm really not sure what you are getting at here. If your point is that 'companies are capable of relocating some of their departments' then you are correct. If you think CVG had anything to do with it you are not.

[Kahns Krazy]

I guess you can't admit that I was right about P&G, you have to spin it with cyberspeak, trying to explain away how your condescending attitude towards what I said is justified with links and the whatnot. I kept it simple, said departments would have no problems moving, and it happened. So Kahns, simple question. was I right about this and you were wrong? Or are you going to deny this too, in some condescending, look-down-your-nose kind of way again? Or are you just going to try to make it into something else? Leave it to the business people my ass.

Poke. Poke.

I HATE dayton.

I have already addressed the issue of you being "right about P&G", so I won't go through that again except to say (again) that moving 20 jobs is not the same as moving global HQ to Singapore.

I really don't understand you. Yes, I did light you up in this thread for your outrageous claims. I felt it was an equivalent response to the level of sensationalism in your original post, but you apparently took it personally. If you look back on this thread, there isn't a single person that agreed with your original premise, but you have singled me out in your response.

You have also publicly and privately complained to moderators of this board that I "attack" you, yet you seem to have no problem instigating with me. I really don't care. "Poke" all you want. You can even complain again to the mods the next time you feel like I attack you.

I'm really sorry that I hurt your feelings. I hope someday you can recover.

[PM Thor]

Awww, you are just no fun. I said that P&G departments would have no problem moving, I got mocked by you for it, then the Singapore move happened. Now you minimize the departments moving, totally ignoring the significance of the move. Gotta cover your tracks and try to never be wrong, right K?

I HATE dayton.

[GoMuskies]

This thread is dumber than the Catholic birth control threads.

[XU 87]

Awww, you are just no fun. I said that P&G departments would have no problem moving, I got mocked by you for it, then the Singapore move happened. Now you minimize the departments moving, totally ignoring the significance of the move. Gotta cover your tracks and try to never be wrong, right K?

I HATE dayton.

I was just talking to a P&G buddy of mine who said international flights had nothing to do with this move. The Asian market is exploding in the health and beauty markets. Hence the reason for the move.

As for your prediction that a P&G division would be moving, some prediction. In the past, they've moved other divisions to Singapore and Europe. And I don't think it was some deep secret that health and beauty were heading to Singapore.

That said, I would think that the lack of flights, domestic and international, would be a possible negative to potential companies thinking of relocating to Cincinnati. And all things being equal, I could see a company leaving or moving offices because of the lack of flights.

But Chiquita primarily left because they got a bunch of money from North Carolina.

[PM Thor]

Yep.

And I would not be surprised to see P&G eventually move it's international HQ out of Cincy and just leave it as the North American hub. You saw how easy this current move was...

I HATE dayton.

[waggy]

If they moved these people to another US city you MIGHT START to have an argument.