Jim Thome Hits #600

[Masterofreality]

Jim Thome hit his 600th homer tonight. The guy is a future Hall of Famer, no doubt.

When the owner of the Cleveland Indians cheaped out and refused to re-sign Thome was the catalyst for me not to renew season tickets for the Tribe. Ownership claimed that Thome had a bad back and wouldn't last through an extended contract. Here it is 9 years later and Thome is still playing- successfully.

Congratulations to Jim Thome. A class guy who never has had a hint of scandal or controversy. This will be his last year, and in 5 years, he'll be in Cooperstown.

[Fred Garvin 2.0]

MOR is a loyal Tribe fan. He must hate Pete Rose making a beyotch out of Ray Fosse.

[Juice]

Jim Thome hit his 600th homer tonight. The guy is a future Hall of Famer, no doubt.

When the owner of the Cleveland Indians cheaped out and refused to re-sign Thome was the catalyst for me not to renew season tickets for the Tribe. Ownership claimed that Thome had a bad back and wouldn't last through an extended contract. Here it is 9 years later and Thome is still playing- successfully.

Congratulations to Jim Thome. A class guy who never has had a hint of scandal or controversy. This will be his last year, and in 5 years, he'll be in Cooperstown.

He's really good player and may certainly get in the Hall at some point, but I don't think he is a slam dunk.


We generally expect our Hall of Famers to have been dominant, MVP-caliber players for at least a few years, and that's just not what Jim Thome's been.

On the other hand, we also expect our Hall of Famers to have been worth a great number of wins. According to FanGraphs, Thome's currently sitting at 71 Wins Above Replacement. There's a great cluster of players in the 70-72 range.

These guys are already in the Hall of Fame: Goose Goslin, Johnny Mize, Duke Snider, Ed Delahanty, Yogi Berra, Willie Stargell, Ozzie Smith, Zack Wheat.

These guys are not already in the Hall of Fame: Graig Nettles, Reggie Smith, Dwight Evans, Andruw Jones, Tim Raines, Joe Torre, Barry Larkin, Craig Biggio.

Just missing the cut (because I'm not rounding up): Edgar Martinez, Lou Boudreau, Billy Williams, Pee Wee Reese, Manny Ramírez, and Alan Trammell. Boudreau, Williams and Reese are in the Hall of Fame. Most observers believe that Ramírez has Hall of Fame numbers; most really intelligent observers believe that Trammell does, too.

I know that's a lot of names, some of which probably don't mean anything to you. The point is that Thome's career, at least according to this particular measure, fits in nicely with plenty of Hall of Famers, or players (Larkin and Biggio, in particular) who will eventually be in the Hall of Fame.

But there's another point, which is that some players with similar contributions are not in the Hall of Fame, and won't be. Nettles, Smith, Evans ... none of them got even a sniff from the voters. Raines hasn't drawn much support, and Torre's fell well short.

But none of those guys hit 600 home runs. Or 500.

My guess is that Thome won't be elected to the Hall of Fame by the BBWAA, at least not early on. Eventually, though, if his reputation remains untainted by scandal, he will get in somehow.

http://mlb.sbnation.com/2011/8/15/2352500/jim-thome-600-home-runs-hall-of-fame

[ThrowDownDBrown]

Def hall of famer but not first ballot

[SixFig]

Y'all are crazy. He will be a first ballot Hall of Famer. Baseball will be hurting so hard looking for un-tainted HOFers from this era he will get in ASAP.

[DC Muskie]

Jim Thome hit his 600th homer tonight. The guy is a future Hall of Famer, no doubt.

When the owner of the Cleveland Indians cheaped out and refused to re-sign Thome was the catalyst for me not to renew season tickets for the Tribe. Ownership claimed that Thome had a bad back and wouldn't last through an extended contract. Here it is 9 years later and Thome is still playing- successfully.

Congratulations to Jim Thome. A class guy who never has had a hint of scandal or controversy. This will be his last year, and in 5 years, he'll be in Cooperstown.

I absolutely hate this line of thinking. Hate it. MOR Knows I hate it, but still talks about how "cheap" the Tribe supposedly was towards Thome.

The Indians gave him a very fair deal. Thome wanted a sixth year, and got it from Philadelphia, where money was no option. Thome turned down the Tribe. The Tribe did not refuse to resign him. That is simply not true.

Jim Thome has been a good player, and he has benefited tremendously from playing in the DH spot.

Personally I have enjoyed the fact it took him 7 years to get back to the playoffs and he has yet to hit a home run in those playoffs.

I tend to think he is more of a Hall of Famer since he has reached 600 HR. But I doubt he will be first ballot.

[Masterofreality]

I absolutely hate this line of thinking. Hate it. MOR Knows I hate it, but still talks about how "cheap" the Tribe supposedly was towards Thome.

The Indians gave him a very fair deal. Thome wanted a sixth year, and got it from Philadelphia, where money was no option. Thome turned down the Tribe. The Tribe did not refuse to resign him. That is simply not true.

Jim Thome has been a good player, and he has benefited tremendously from playing in the DH spot.

Personally I have enjoyed the fact it took him 7 years to get back to the playoffs and he has yet to hit a home run in those playoffs.

I tend to think he is more of a Hall of Famer since he has reached 600 HR. But I doubt he will be first ballot.

DC and I have agreed to disagree on this.

The fact of the matter is that after Philly gave Thome the 6th year, he went BACK to the Indians and gave them the chance to match- at less money. Dolan, because his offers were nothing but sham refused to cave and Thome moved on. Dolan's ways were proven the next year when they wouldn't pay Vizquel, another future HOF, 5 million a year.

Jim Thome, Hall of Famer. Sounds about right.

[SM#24]

Y'all are crazy. He will be a first ballot Hall of Famer. Baseball will be hurting so hard looking for un-tainted HOFers from this era he will get in ASAP.

couldn't agree more

[kenny powers]

Y'all are crazy. He will be a first ballot Hall of Famer. Baseball will be hurting so hard looking for un-tainted HOFers from this era he will get in ASAP.

You do realize there is no requirement saying that you have to have a player inducted every year. If there is nobody that gets 75% of the vote, then nobody gets in.

[Juice]

You do realize there is no requirement saying that you have to have a player inducted every year. If there is nobody that gets 75% of the vote, then nobody gets in.

There is possibility this coming year in that happening but most people think it will be Larkin's year. And quite frankly, if he doesn't get in this year, every voter should be shot.

[SixFig]

You do realize there is no requirement saying that you have to have a player inducted every year. If there is nobody that gets 75% of the vote, then nobody gets in.

I do realize thank you. I also know that the writers are extremely interested in having someone to induct every year. They've put someone in there every year but 1996. As I was saying, with the lack of non-steroid candidates, there will be plenty of writers looking to Thome as their man. You're not going to vote for 600 homers? Really?

[paulxu]

Not that this means a whole lot, and admittedly I haven't followed Thome's career that closely...but if his remarkable achievement of 600 HR's is compliments of the DH rule, I think that makes it a little less appealing.

I've never liked that rule anyway. I wonder how many hits Rose might have continued to bang out, or have gotten earlier, if all he did was bat and not play a position.

[nuts4xu]

600 HR's doesn't mean the same as it did 20 years ago.

Roids or not, that is a shitload of taters. But other than the steroids cloud hanging over the game, Thome played in the juiced ball age as well. You add in the fact he played DH for so many years, his stats don't look so impressive to me.

[smileyy]

Another year, another discussion where people don't realize how *($#ing good Jim Thome is.



600 HR's doesn't mean the same as it did 20 years ago.


As far as I can tell, the list has one player on the list that wouldn't be on it, if not for the sillyball era: Sammy Sosa. Bonds would have hit 600. ARod would have hit 600. Griffey would have hit 600.

nuts: stats like WAR (Wins Above Replacement) and OPS+ (On-base% Plus Slugging%, normalized for park and context) take context into, well, context.

He's 80th in career WAR, 53rd among position players, and 44th all time in Offensive WAR. He's 41st in career OPS+.

His comparable batters are also Hall of Famers or future HOFers, or would-be HOFers if not for steroids taint, some of them slam dunk (though they do have somewhat low similarity scores -- HOFers tend to be unique): Frank Thomas, Sammy Sosa, Mike Schmidt, Harmon Killebrew, Mickey Mantle, Willey McCovey, Willie Stargell, Fred McGriff, Manny Ramirez, Jeff Bagwell.

Looking at all of the above, he's a solid HOFer. He's not much of a "peak" guy, but there's plenty of "16-18 years of bing very good to great" HOFers as precedent. He even had a nice peak in 2002, where he would have been the best player in the league, if not for this inner-circle guy Alex Rodriguez.

Anyway, lots of good information to make up your mind here:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/thomeji01.shtml

[Fireball]

I think that Thome will get in for no other reason than the 600 bombs, but I really think he is a borderline Hall of Famer.

I define a Hall of Famer as someone who has dominant in the league or at their position for a period of time. Thome has nice counting stats, but was he ever a dominant player in the league? He's been very good, but I don't see him as a great player.

[smileyy]

Very-good-to-great seasons become a great career after you do that for 16-18 seasons.

[Juice]

I think that Thome will get in for no other reason than the 600 bombs, but I really think he is a borderline Hall of Famer.

I define a Hall of Famer as someone who has dominant in the league or at their position for a period of time. Thome has nice counting stats, but was he ever a dominant player in the league? He's been very good, but I don't see him as a great player.

Look at his 2002 season, ungodly stats.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/thomeji01.shtml

But I am on your side as far as the Hall of Fame goes. He's borderline. I'm not a fan of a guy who can remain in the game much past his overall usefulness if he is only DHing.

[Masterofreality]

Borderline?

C'mon.

Jim Thome hit 600 home runs in fewer at bats than any other major league baseball player in history- but one.

That one was Babe Ruth.

If Jim Thome played in New York rather than some "flyover" cities, the guy would have been kinged a long time ago.

[DC Muskie]

DC and I have agreed to disagree on this.

The fact of the matter is that after Philly gave Thome the 6th year, he went BACK to the Indians and gave them the chance to match- at less money. Dolan, because his offers were nothing but sham refused to cave and Thome moved on. Dolan's ways were proven the next year when they wouldn't pay Vizquel, another future HOF, 5 million a year.

You are entitled to your own opinion MOR, but not your own facts. He did not go back and give them the chance to match. He turned them down. He signed and became the highest paid Phillie Trash in their trashy history. He said he wanted to win and he didn't want to move his family around.

The Phillies gave him six years with a team option for a seventh. The Indians offered a five year and an un-guaranteed six, based on incentives. He chose to be Trash and wait for another seven years before he made another appearance in the playoffs.

Vizquel also did not get his $5 million a year contract anyway. He has yet to return to the playoffs. The Indians have been in the playoffs since and are in contention this year.

Personally I don't care if you ever cheer for the Tribe again. But this revisionist history and your disdain for the Tribe not to resign guys you like, who went on to other teams and not go to the playoffs is not a feeling I share.

I love my Cleveland Indians. Thick and thin.

[DC Muskie]

Borderline?

C'mon.

Jim Thome hit 600 home runs in fewer at bats than any other major league baseball player in history- but one.

That one was Babe Ruth.

If Jim Thome played in New York rather than some "flyover" cities, the guy would have been kinged a long time ago.

And yet not even halfway through his contract with the Phillies they traded him because they felt they had a better first baseman in their system. And the Trash went on to win the World Series without him.

[_LH]

Borderline?

C'mon.

Jim Thome hit 600 home runs in fewer at bats than any other major league baseball player in history- but one.

That one was Babe Ruth.

If Jim Thome played in New York rather than some "flyover" cities, the guy would have been kinged a long time ago.

HOFer no doubt. First ballot, probably not. He reminds me a lot of Killebrew and it took Harmon years to get in with 573 homers in the non steroid, non expansion, non small park era.

[Fireball]

If I remember correctly, Killebrew was also known as a pretty good defender, also. Nobody will ever accuse Thome of that.

One other thing: I put Fred McGriff in the Hall before I put Thome there, and I don't know that Crimey will make it either.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

[paulxu]

Would he have made it to 600 if he played defense every day, instead of DHing?

[DC Muskie]

Would he have made it to 600 if he played defense every day, instead of DHing?

Probably not.

But it doesn't matter, because he hit 600 by playing a position that has been around since 1973.

It will be interesting to see how voters react to his candidacy, since it could set the precedent on future DH candidates.

[Masterofreality]

You are entitled to your own opinion MOR, but not your own facts. He did not go back and give them the chance to match.

Sorry buddy, untrue. He would have taken the same years at less money than "the Trash"'. He had married a Cleveland girl and wanted to stay here.

It's documented. I was a season ticket holder at the time and I know the whole story. I'm not the only guy who dropped tix after that debacle.

Jim Thome, Hall of Famer.

[Xavier]

Borderline, IMO. He started in the all star game just twice in his career (he has been to 5 total all star games in his 21 seasons. That hardly screams HOF)the closest he ever came to an MVP was 4th. He lead the league in HR's one time but lead the league in strike outs 3 times.

[DC Muskie]

Sorry buddy, untrue. He would have taken the same years at less money than "the Trash"'. He had married a Cleveland girl and wanted to stay here.

It's documented. I was a season ticket holder at the time and I know the whole story. I'm not the only guy who dropped tix after that debacle.

Jim Thome, Hall of Famer.

It is true MOR. And here is my actual documentation to support it:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/story/2002/12/03/thome021203.html

He wanted to "win." So he went to a team that hadn't "won" in consecutive seasons in 20 years prior.

I don't care what kind of backroom, bar stool story you and your friends have conjured up at that time and still somehow hold as gospel. He had an offer for the years he wanted that was less money. On the other side, he had a offer at the same years for far more money and one more guaranteed year, plus another year with a club option.

That is the fact. So this idea that he somehow got spurned by the Tribe despite the fact he wanted one more year and would have stayed at less money is false. You know why I know that?

Because the Indians offered him a contract that had the years he wanted and was for less money.

I'll re-post the story again:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/story/2002/12/03/thome021203.html

I hate this about Cleveland fans. They just want to be pissed at ownership. Ted Stepien was a terrible owner. He really tried to kill the Cavs. Art Modell was a terrible owner, he ruined the Browns and moved them. Just to call out Dolan for not getting Jim Thome to sign a fair contract, a contract you claim actually fulfills his desires to stay, is a flat out joke.

And dropping your tickets as some sort of high moral standard just happened to accelerate the cost cutting decisions of the Indians. So congrats. You and all the others decided that the Indians should be stuck in 1995 forever, economic reality be damned. Who cares that more and more companies left Cleveland who bought those luxury boxes, who cares that the Browns have been back for three years and this town is a football town.

Jim Thome wanted to stay. For less money! It is a well documented story that all season ticket holders got! Despite the public statements and public disclosures of what the offers were!

Thome's own words were he wanted to "win." It was a difficult decision for him, he says. What decision did he need to struggle with, if the Indians hadn't given him what you think he asked for???!!!

The Indians finished 14 games under .500 that season with Thome. And somehow you and other season ticket holders decided enough was enough. A team that hasn't won the World Series since 1948 and only one more in 1920, wasn't meeting your expectations, because we needed to make sure Thome got what he deserved.

I know I'm never going to change your mind on this. I really don't understand why people think this, let alone pride themselves that nine years ago, you dropped your season tickets because a millionaire got 15 more millions from somewhere else.

This is what is gospel. The earth revolves around the sun, Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior and Jim Thome turned down the Cleveland Indians offer in 2002.

[DC Muskie]

And MOR your argument of the poor treatment of Thome by using Vizquel as an example of it doesn't hold water either. Because the Indians didn't think he was worth $5 million for one season. And they were correct. He signed for less then that per year with the Giants. HOF shortstop on the open market, pissed that the club didn't pick up his option and he ended up not getting what that option was anyway.

Thome got traded before he hit the halfway mark of his contract. Vizquel no playoffs since.

Thome 29 at bats in the playoffs since. 4 hits. Zero HR.

[DC Muskie]

Jim Thome and his family live in Chicago by the way. Three teams ago.

[DC Muskie]

Jayson Werth says that Manuel told Thome to take the deal:

http://www.morningjournal.com/articles/2011/04/17/sports/doc4daa605482632180877680.txt

I freaking hate Charlie Manuel. That 2000 team was balls and he screwed it up. Then when he wins the series with the Trash, what does he say:

Tell everyone in Cleveland I won!

http://blog.cleveland.com/sports/2008/10/post_84.html

Knobber.

[DC Muskie]

Here it is 9 years later and Thome is still playing- successfully.

9 years, and four teams later.

[vee4xu]

I am not Dolan apologist to be sure. However, they did offer Jim a 5 year, $60 million deal and it was Jim who said before that "they'll have to rip this (Indians) uniform off of me." So one could understand why some fans still can't warm-and-fuzzy up to Thome. In my humble opinion, the Dolans have a list of screw ups as long as Shaq's arm, but Thome was not one of them. Jim made an economic decision and that was his choice and right as a player. I don't think these facts should be lost in the discussion.

[DC Muskie]

This argument would hold up if the Indians just did not offer him a contract at all.

In 2002 the economic landscape was still in transition. Thome was offered $5 million less then what Barry Bonds got the year before by the Trash.

Most players were not getting 5 year deals. Jason Giambi got seven years for $120 million.

[vee4xu]

For the record, the onus for Thome leaving is really squarely on Jim. It may have sounded in my post that I was actually supporting Thome, but such is not the case. He made his bed and he has to live with the consequences. The Dolans are to blame for many Cleveland Indian woes, but Thome is solely responsible for what people feel about him. That said, he will be a HOFer and he will go in as an Indian.

[DC Muskie]

The Dolans are to blame for many Cleveland Indian woes..

Really? This franchise has won two world series since the Cubs last took one.

I love the fact this team in contention right now. The ownership is not that bad. Not great, but really it could be worse.

[Masterofreality]

Whatever.

Fact, as written by Terry Pluto and Paul Hoynes:

When Philadelphia offered Thome a 6 year deal at $85 million, Thome went back to the Indians who had only offered $60 million over 5. Thome told Dolan that if the Indians would guarantee 6th year at another $12 million he would stay. Dolan said no.

Sorry, boys. $12 million year for a future Hall of Famer is chump change- especially when the Indians offense abjectly sucked for years after Thome left.

Oh, and if "contention" means that you can be 2 games over .500 and close to first place, I guess that is contention.

[paulxu]

The ownership is not that bad. Not great, but really it could be worse.

= Bengals

[Masterofreality]

Wow, and DC posts stories that are generic to prove his point? They actually prove nothing, only the final outcome, not what happened at the end, before the outcome.

I get it DC. You hate Thome. Fine, but the guy has integrity and has never had a hint of scandal- and. He's a Hall of Famer, and the Indians have won one Division under the Dolan ownership along with not having a single position player draft pick make an impact- for 10 years.

Maybe Kipnis, maybe Chisenhall, we'll see, but this franchise has been horribly managed, and it's the only ownership in town that keeps hiding behind the "small market" excuse to hide their own shortcomings.

Jim Thome- Hall of Famer.

[DC Muskie]

Whatever.

Fact, as written by Terry Pluto and Paul Hoynes:

When Philadelphia offered Thome a 6 year deal at $85 million, Thome went back to the Indians who had only offered $60 million over 5. Thome told Dolan that if the Indians would guarantee 6th year at another $12 million he would stay. Dolan said no.


Where are these links? Because nothing I have ever read from Terry Pluto suggests that Thome went back to the Indians to see if he could get that final year.

I provided a link to Thome official stated comments.



Sorry, boys. $12 million year for a future Hall of Famer is chump change- especially when the Indians offense abjectly sucked for years after Thome left.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. He made less then $12 million the first year of the contract he signed and a little more then $12 million in the second. What happened when the big portion of the contract kick in? He was traded.



Oh, and if "contention" means that you can be 2 games over .500 and close to first place, I guess that is contention.

Yes contention is a pretty simple term. It means you could win the division of make the playoffs. What does it matter if it's two games over .500 exactly?

We won 93 games in 2005. The same year Thome was getting moved out for Ryan Howard. Was that better for you, even though we didn't win the division? Does contention mean more to you by winning a certain number of games?

[DC Muskie]

Wow, and DC posts stories that are generic to prove his point? They actually prove nothing, only the final outcome, not what happened at the end, before the outcome.

Generic? I posted what the man said and what he did. He didn't want to leave Cleveland? He moved his family in Chicago. He he didn't go to the playoffs until 2008, one year AFTER the Indians made it back.




I get it DC. You hate Thome. Fine, but the guy has integrity and has never had a hint of scandal- and. He's a Hall of Famer, and the Indians have won one Division under the Dolan ownership along with not having a single position player draft pick make an impact- for 10 years.

I don't hate Thome. I just don't worship him like you do. More importantly, I don't hate the actual freaking team. I'm actually glad you are not an Indians fan anymore. We don't need you. Go root for the Twins or something.



Maybe Kipnis, maybe Chisenhall, we'll see, but this franchise has been horribly managed, and it's the only ownership in town that keeps hiding behind the "small market" excuse to hide their own shortcomings.

We are a small market. I know you don't like to hear that, but that is a fact. Your boy Randy Lerner who has had 4,000 head coaches and 250 GM, has produced ZERO playoffs. None.


Jim Thome- Hall of Famer.

Jim Thome- Zero World Series Rings.

[Masterofreality]

Maybe if DC lived here, he could actually read newspapers- on real paper with typeset- rather than just pulling stories off national news websites. He might even have a chance to talk with real people who have knowledge- like possibly playing golf with PD sportswriter Bud Shaw as some of us who actually live in the city are able to do.... Or having a chance to coach the son of Bill Livingston, PD sportswriter, in basketball and being given information over beers.

Living in the city, having contact with real people and, oh, actually being a season ticket holder for a team, might let someone in on some things that those who live out of town may not be privy to. There are many things that I know about how Dolan financed his purchase of this team, how much he overpaid, and how he has been hamstrung by his lack of money and bad business decisions like cutting his own revenue stream by needlessly cutting ticket prices and starting a cable network that is barely breaking even as opposed to taking a $30 million/year guaranteed profit TV deal from Fox Sports Ohio. (Wanna know why most teams don't have their own cable network? Figure it out.) All of this has contributed to the downgrading of a team that the Jacobs family took 15 years to build up. While DC likes to point out "contention" he conveniently forgets the last two back to back dismal years of 97 and 93 losses and that this year they have the 7th SEVENTH best record in the American League and only the 14th best in baseball, but they're in "contention". "Contention" because of Dick Jacobs being smart enough to move to the Central Division. Thanks Dick.

Dan Gilbert and Randy Lerner never talk about what a "small market" Cleveland is. Nothing like Dolan continually invoking that little tidbit to hide his deficiencies. Some of us that live here take a bit of offense to someone who has challenges blaming their shortcomings on "the market that we're located in." Don't ever remember Jacobs having a problem with "the market". Brother Dolan, if you had a problem with the market, why did you buy the team here in the first place? Buy a team in Kansas City, or Seattle. All I seem to remember is that when Dolan had his first press conference he boasted that there would be "not just one, but MULTIPLE championships. Of course that was when Cablevision stock was at $80/share. What do we have 11 years later? Hmmmmm.

I'm done with this. Everything I have posted is true.

Here's all that counts: Jim Thome, 600 home runs and soon to be a Hall of Famer- and he will go into Cooperstown as a Cleveland Indian. That's pretty classy.

Meanwhile, DC will encounter a cranial explosion when that certainty occurs.

And meanwhile, I will continue to live here and root for anything that makes the city of Cleveland look good and progress- including the players of the Cleveland Indians. Ownership has a lot to prove before I get off their asses.

Go Browns, Go Cavs and Go Manny Acta and players of the Tribe (because you won't get much help from ownership).

[GoMuskies]

Cleveland refused to re-sign Thome and Vizquel and promptly visited the ALCS in '07. I'm not sure why that upset any Indians fan. Choking it away, sure, that was a problem.

[DC Muskie]

Maybe if DC lived here, he could actually read newspapers- on real paper with typeset- rather than just pulling stories off national news websites. He might even have a chance to talk with real people who have knowledge- like possibly playing golf with PD sportswriter Bud Shaw as some of us who actually live in the city are able to do.... Or having a chance to coach the son of Bill Livingston, PD sportswriter, in basketball and being given information over beers.

Living in the city, having contact with real people and, oh, actually being a season ticket holder for a team, might let someone in on some things that those who live out of town may not be privy to. There are many things that I know about how Dolan financed his purchase of this team, how much he overpaid, and how he has been hamstrung by his lack of money and bad business decisions like cutting his own revenue stream by needlessly cutting ticket prices and starting a cable network that is barely breaking even as opposed to taking a $30 million/year guaranteed profit TV deal from Fox Sports Ohio. (Wanna know why most teams don't have their own cable network? Figure it out.) All of this has contributed to the downgrading of a team that the Jacobs family took 15 years to build up. While DC likes to point out "contention" he conveniently forgets the last two back to back dismal years of 97 and 93 losses and that this year they have the 7th SEVENTH best record in the American League and only the 14th best in baseball, but they're in "contention". "Contention" because of Dick Jacobs being smart enough to move to the Central Division. Thanks Dick.

Dan Gilbert and Randy Lerner never talk about what a "small market" Cleveland is. Nothing like Dolan continually invoking that little tidbit to hide his deficiencies. Some of us that live here take a bit of offense to someone who has challenges blaming their shortcomings on "the market that we're located in." Don't ever remember Jacobs having a problem with "the market". Brother Dolan, if you had a problem with the market, why did you buy the team here in the first place? Buy a team in Kansas City, or Seattle. All I seem to remember is that when Dolan had his first press conference he boasted that there would be "not just one, but MULTIPLE championships. Of course that was when Cablevision stock was at $80/share. What do we have 11 years later? Hmmmmm.

I'm done with this. Everything I have posted is true.

Here's all that counts: Jim Thome, 600 home runs and soon to be a Hall of Famer- and he will go into Cooperstown as a Cleveland Indian. That's pretty classy.

Meanwhile, DC will encounter a cranial explosion when that certainty occurs.

And meanwhile, I will continue to live here and root for anything that makes the city of Cleveland look good and progress- including the players of the Cleveland Indians. Ownership has a lot to prove before I get off their asses.

Go Browns, Go Cavs and Go Manny Acta and players of the Tribe (because you won't get much help from ownership).

I'm going to go line by line with this utter ridiculousness.

But first, know that I love MOR. Always have, always will.

There is this thing called the "internet" MOR. I do have many family and friends who actually live there and have people that work closely with the pro teams in that town. You don't need to live there, or hold season tickets to get all the inside stories.

Bud Shaw, Paul Hoynes and Terry Pluto, have not, did not discuss this critical piece of information about Thome telling the Indians that he would have stayed if the Tribe guaranteed that sixth year. None. Zero. And I was correct, it was bar stool stories with the son of the mechanic who used to be college roommates with the nephew of the current columnist of the Cleveland paper.

In the end, Thome got in front of the entire world and said it was a difficult decision to leave but it was all about "winning." Those are DIRECTLY HIS WORDS. Not Bud Shaw, not the gardener of Bill Livingston's wife. Jim Thome. You have ABSOLUTELY no argument when it comes to what the guy whose signature would be on the contract has said to everyone.

What Dolan paid for the Tribe is pretty common knowledge. His attempts of STO are still a work in progress, and it is the ONLY WAY clubs can try and generate outside revenue. Not through tickets sales MOR, from outside revenue, when everyone who lived in that city and the companies who worked in that city have left.

You complain about ticket prices being cut, but the streak of sellouts stopped just as Dolan took over the team. No doubt you probably blame him for that as well. I would say it had more to do with the fact that Jacobs Field had passed it's freshness.

I still don't understand how you could be upset over the fact the Indians are in contention. What kind of fan are you? You are upset the Indians dominated the same shitty division that helped them win ZERO World Series titles under Jacobs?

What exactly would you like the Dolans to do? You cannot cut and paste what other teams in other leagues have done and apply it to the Indians. The Browns have been absolutely horrible since they have been back. But thank God they don't use the Small market excuse. Let's see, maybe that';s beacuse the NFL has a different set of rules. One where the freaking GREEN BAY PACKERS can win the SUPER BOWL.

Gilbert is an owner in a league where NO ONE WANTS TO PLAY IN CLEVELAND! He cannot spend his way to a tile. WHy? because the economics of the NBA won't let him.

Baseball has no cap. Does this make sense to you? Or should Bill Livingston vallet help you out?

Also, just so you know, Jim Thome if he does in fact go to the Hall he has ZERO say in what he wears. Of course he would go in as a member of the Indians. What other team would there be? The Phillies who traded him. (You still haven't come to grips with that have you) The White Sox? Please. he doesn't get to choose. No one has. Not since 2001.

Ownership of the Tribe just made a push or the playoffs with a big trade. MOR doesn't care. He wants more home grown talent, because...well...because...home grown talent is the best. Just look at the Browns. Our kicker is the best home grown talent we have!

[DC Muskie]

Cleveland refused to re-sign Thome and Vizquel and promptly visited the ALCS in '07. I'm not sure why that upset any Indians fan. Choking it away, sure, that was a problem.

Doesn't matter. We have only been there once. That's the point. Remember the 90's? It should be 1995 every year.

[Masterofreality]

And I love DC Muskie. Always have.

Passion cannot be taught.

Beware to those outside the Cleveland family. Just because two brothers get into an argument doesn't mean that the bond is weakened.

Someone from the outside comes in to trash the family, however, and there is hell to pay. Don't go talkin' bad 'bout my neighborhood.

Sort of like the Avengers movie now being shot in downtown Cleveburgh. We will not kowtow to the forces of darkness.

[Masterofreality]

And, finally. (And this is FINAL)

No, I don't need private stories, but they serve as verification to what happened. Thome, before he announced he was going to Philly gave Dolan one last chance to guarantee a 6th year on the day before the decision. Dolan said no.

Documentation?:

From Terry Pluto's book "Dealing".

"(Thome) was emotional and not focused at the press conference announcing his signing. Twice he said he wanted to retire with the Indians. It was a strange comment on a day when he was signing with another team. He said he would have stayed in Cleveland if they would have offered him a sixth year guaranteed."

And this:

"In an offer that long, Jimmy's age and health became an issue", said Paul Dolan. "There was no way we could match that."

Dolan was not willing to guarantee the last 12 million dollars for a sixth year. Their last offer was a club option 6th year with only a $2 million guarantee out of a possible $14 million. Documented in the book. Dolan let a future Hall of Famer get away over $12 million. Let's see. The Indians lost 900,000 in attendance from 2002 to 2003. At an average ticket price of $25 per that is a loss of $22,500,000 - in one year! That doesn't even countb the lost concessions. Yep. That Dolan is a real businessman. Don't sign Thome and lose 8,000 season ticket holders in one year.

Hmmm. Jim Thome is now almost 41 and it has been 9 years since. He's still playing and has hit more home runs and has been as healthy or healthier as Travis Hafner, including an equal amount of homers this year. Yeah, I guess Jimmy's age and health has really become an issue.- for the Indians.
Jim Thome- Hall of Famer....in a Cleveland Indians uniform.

The End.

[DC Muskie]

And, finally. (And this is FINAL)

No, I don't need private stories, but they serve as verification to what happened. Thome, before he announced he was going to Philly gave Dolan one last chance to guarantee a 6th year on the day before the decision. Dolan said no.

Documentation?:

From Terry Pluto's book "Dealing".

"(Thome) was emotional and not focused at the press conference announcing his signing. Twice he said he wanted to retire with the Indians. It was a strange comment on a day when he was signing with another team. He said he would have stayed in Cleveland if they would have offered him a sixth year guaranteed."

And this:

"In an offer that long, Jimmy's age and health became an issue", said Paul Dolan. "There was no way we could match that."

Dolan was not willing to guarantee the last 12 million dollars for a sixth year. Their last offer was a club option 6th year with only a $2 million guarantee out of a possible $14 million. Documented in the book. Dolan let a future Hall of Famer get away over $12 million. Let's see. The Indians lost 900,000 in attendance from 2002 to 2003. At an average ticket price of $25 per that is a loss of $22,500,000 - in one year! That doesn't even countb the lost concessions. Yep. That Dolan is a real businessman. Don't sign Thome and lose 8,000 season ticket holders in one year.

Hmmm. Jim Thome is now almost 41 and it has been 9 years since. He's still playing and has hit more home runs and has been as healthy or healthier as Travis Hafner, including an equal amount of homers this year. Yeah, I guess Jimmy's age and health has really become an issue.- for the Indians.
Jim Thome- Hall of Famer....in a Cleveland Indians uniform.

The End.

Where in there don't you see that it was Thome's decision? He got a guaranteed six year and a seventh year club option. The Dolans did not let him walk, he walked himself. Is that really hard to see and understand? He was traded before that contract even got halfway through. He still said at the end of the day it was about winning. Not sure how you can ignore that fact.

If you read the rest of the book, Pluto talks about all the points I made. This idea that the Indians are not small market, even though they are. Hell the entire premise of the book is based on the new ownership and the new world they live in. So while you praise Jacobs, in the end you could argue he screwed the next ownership by taking advantage of them and getting them to pay more then what the Dodgers spent.

I'm curious though, how many playoffs and World Series titles do you think the Indians would have won if Thome decided to stay? Because it's obvious he has been the difference maker in other stops in his career.

[Pete Delkus]

And, finally. (And this is FINAL)

And this:

... Let's see. The Indians lost 900,000 in attendance from 2002 to 2003. At an average ticket price of $25 per that is a loss of $22,500,000 - in one year! That doesn't even countb the lost concessions. Yep. That Dolan is a real businessman. Don't sign Thome and lose 8,000 season ticket holders in one year.

...

Jim Thome- Hall of Famer....in a Cleveland Indians uniform.

The End.

THIS!

•Done being pissed at Thome, both sides hold portion of blame, though. HOF
•Heard that the Dolan’s are looking to sell STO…is this a precursor to a sale of the team as Millionaire’s realize they can’t survive in a Billionaire’s game? Note: this rumor came for the former cleaning lady for the late Geoff Sindelar’s next door neighbor Carl – she is a “Good Item” .
•U looked like crap yesterday. I still like the move – but he needs to regain his stuff down the stretch.
•Favorite Indian: Tomlin! Dude is fantastic and is the type of gamer you need. Loved him earlier this year, yelling from the dugout for Miggy Cabrerra to get the #@*# down to first base after Masterson plunked him.
•Thome is 0-52 lifetime against Indians Pitching Coach Tim Belcher
•Thome bought the worst looking, multi-leather-patched 1997 NBA ALL Star jacket at halftime of the game in Cleveland. Price tag: $1,200. He spent a ton on merchandise that day, second only to Allan Iverson’s Mom. You could almost see him wearing it to pick up Becky, Darlene and DJ and taking them to the Peoria Flee Market.

[DC Muskie]

Do you guys seriously think attendance dropped for the Indians because Jim Thome didn't resign with the team?

You can't be serious. Please tell me you understand what goes on in that city.

[vee4xu]

Do you guys seriously think attendance dropped for the Indians because Jim Thome didn't resign with the team?

You can't be serious. Please tell me you understand what goes on in that city.

I think a few 90-something loss years with Grinder Wedgie in the dugout had something to do with that. Frankly, I think 2007 was a bit of a fluke. I pleasant fluke, but a fluke nonetheless.

[DC Muskie]

I think a few 90-something loss years with Grinder Wedgie in the dugout had something to do with that. Frankly, I think 2007 was a bit of a fluke. I pleasant fluke, but a fluke nonetheless.

The sell out streak stopped in April 2001. Thome signed with the Phillies and played for them in 2003. In 2005 we won 93 games. If you think winning 96 games in a 162 season, as we did in 2007, was a fluke, then more flukes please.

Wedge lost 90 more games in 2003, before the decline MOR states, and in 2009. So I gotta disagree.

The 97 team went to the World series after winning just 86 games. If the 2011 Indians finish the year playing .500 ball, they will end up with 88 wins. I guess going to the World Series should be a fluke as well.

Some more to consider:

Before 1995, the Indians hadn't finished a full season above .500 since 1986 when they won 84 games. Before that it was 1979.

If the Indians finish above .500, it would mean half the years the Dolans have owned the team where the Tribe have had non losing seasons. That's the same percentage as the team did during the 15 seasons Jacobs owned the team.

Never in my life would I ever expect to read from Indians fans that some year was a fluke.

[DC Muskie]

That '97 team should be a reminder for all Indians fans that being in contention and making the playoffs should not be taken for granted.

That season the Tribe was the only team over .500 in the Central.

The O's and the Yankees won more then 95 games. The Mariners won 90.

Hell the Braves won 101 games and didn't make the World Series.

The Astros won 84 games that year and won the NL Central. Think Astro fans weren't impressed or happy to win the division because they did it only 5 games over .500?

Maybe it was a fluke.

Maybe the Marlins winning in 2003 was a fluke. I want more flukes for my team.

[vee4xu]

Here is what Yahoo Sports says:

2002 74-88 3rd 20.5 GB
2003 68-94 4th 22.0 GB
2004 80-82 3rd 12.0 GB
2005 93-69 2nd 6.0 GB (lost last 4 - 1 to CHI and 3 to Tampa Bay I believe)
2006 78-84 4th 18.0 GB
2007 96-66 1st won division by 8 games
2008 81-81 3rd 7.5 GB
2009 65-97 T4th 21.5 GB
2010 69-93 4th 25.0 GB

6 losing seasons 3 of which were 90+ losses, including the last two
1 .500 season
2 winning seasons. In 2007 there were at least a few players who had career years that never repeated like Carmona and Sizemore off the top of my head.

I didn't take averages, but I feel pretty comfortable saying that bad baseball for the past 10 years affected attendance. Also, when you look at every WL record over that time, an argument can be made for 2007 being a fluke.

Sorry DC I am a died-in-the-wool Tribe fan, but must calls 'em as I sees 'em

[DC Muskie]

Vee-

Dolan bought the team in 2000. Are we just skipping a year or two?

You brought up Eric Wedge's 90 games losses. Wedge did that in his first year (03) and his last (09).

The Indians in the 90's hit a perfect storm, which Pluto describes in his book and it's amazing to me that other fans simply don't see this reality.

We built a new stadium, the Browns left and the economics of the city and baseball favored the Indians.

in 1991, just three years before the Jake opened the Indians won 57 games. 57. Total. For the season. They won 60 in 1985 and in 1987 SI thought they'd win the World Series. They ended up just missing that prediction by losing 101 games.

This idea that the last ten years has been bad baseball, and believe me I'm not suggesting it has been some sort of awesome dynasty, is really silly.

We have a very winnable division, but we stopped dominating it by the time the 90s came to a close. The new stadium smell wore off, the Browns came back and the economics of the city and baseball changed incredibly for the Indians. At the beginning of the 2000's the sell out streak stopped. That seems to be a fact you are missing.

Before the 90's, the Indians had not produced a set of three year consecutive above .500 seasons since the run from 1947-1956. That's almost 40 years. In those 40 years the Tribe only had two season where they came close to 90 wins (1959 89 wins and 1965 87 wins) but they did have 4 seasons where they lost over 100 games and five seasons where they lost 90 or more.

The 90's are never coming back. Just like my weight, the Indians are never going to have the dominace they once had. You all have to see that. 2007 is what we can hope for. 2005 is what we can hope for. This season is what we can hope for.

Take a look at the Tigers during this span. They had back to back 90 loss seasons and then went to the World Series in 2006. In 2002 and 2003 they lost 225 total games.

Think about that. 225 games played over two seasons where they lost. Since 2000 the Tigers have had 4 seasons finishing above .500 and one WS appearance. They also as I have mentioned put together four seasons where they had back to back 90 loss and 100 loss seasons.

Would you trade being a Tigers fan?

[DC Muskie]

Also, when you look at every WL record over that time, an argument can be made for 2007 being a fluke.

I hate this, but when you look at the overall record of the franchise, an argument could be made that the entire 90's was more a fluke then the 2007 season.

[Pete Delkus]

Thome’s departure was a clear sign of which way this club was heading, and their collective record over the last 9 years proves peoples suspicions. It’s easy to point to the multitude of reasons why the Tribe were so popular in the 90’s (talent, new park, Corporate $$ and no Browns) and the factors of their stiff fall over the last few years (lack of Corporate $$, departure of talent, iffy drafts, lackluster FA’s singings lately)

Not Dolan’s responsibility - I also think it’s hard for a fan-base to grasp that a team can be better than what we had in the 90’s – which couldn’t even win the series!

Dolan’s responsibility – (1) The unprecedented departures of 2 Cy Young Aces (2) The lack of development of hitter’s through the 2000’s draft (failures of Brad Snyder, Michael Aubrey, Trevor Crowe, John Drennan, Beau Mills, etc…) (3) the precedent that has been set with the early talk of getting the most out of Asdrubal before HE bolts, too…

In saying all of this…I appreciate this current squad, and Dolan, Shappy and Antonetti deserve all the credit in the world.

By the way: Thome hit 601 and helped the Twins beat the Tigers....and Tribe WINS TONIGHT!

Go Tribe !

[vee4xu]

All great points DC. One thing we cannot debate is that both of us love the Tribe and wish they would win it all every year. But, you are right, the game the Tribe has to play is get competitive, hope you win it all and either way you pretty much have to blow things up and start over again. Maybe the real issue is the inequity of baseball where teams like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Cincinnati and Kansas City are really holding players until they can reach free agency and head to bigger markets. There are enough examples of that happening. In the meantime you hope to catch lightening in the bottle a la 2007 or create a competitor like they have this year. This team is young, exciting and plays hard. But, it hurts my heart to know that when these guys can they are gone for big money, absent any changes in MLB CBA. In the meantime, maybe they go to the playoffs and who knows even win a World Series.

As for being a Tigers fan, no way. Let's hope they hold on and win tonight. If they can win the weak division and send the likes of Masterson, Carmona, Jimenez and Tomlin to the mound in a post season series, who knows.

All else aside: GO TRIBE!!

[DC Muskie]

I want a Tigers 2006 WS appearance fluke for my Tribe. Four seasons leading up to that World Serires trip, 406 losses. I'll take four seasons of over 100 game losses for the change to win a World Series in the fifth year.

I want a Xavier Final Four fluke. Screw that I want a Xavier National Championship fluke.

I want a fluke girlfriend. I want a fluke sweet ass ride.

I want a job that pays me a million dollars because that would be a definite fluke.

I take that back, I don't want fluke girlfriend.

[vee4xu]

I want a Tigers 2006 WS appearance fluke for my Tribe. Four seasons leading up to that World Serires trip, 406 losses. I'll take four seasons of over 100 game losses for the change to win a World Series in the fifth year.

I want a Xavier Final Four fluke. Screw that I want a Xavier National Championship fluke.

I want a fluke girlfriend. I want a fluke sweet ass ride.

I want a job that pays me a million dollars because that would be a definite fluke.

I take that back, I don't want fluke girlfriend.

You're too funny.

[DC Muskie]

This could be the best present ever for MOR. From the Minnesota paper:

The Twins gave the newest member of the 600-homer club a rest Tuesday, and Jim Thome can now turn his attention to other matters. As much as Thome doesn't want to address it, the possibility that he could end up in a pennant race -- with another team -- exists. With the Aug. 31 trade deadline approaching, a team looking for some lefthanded punch could be interested in acquiring Thome for the stretch drive. And Thome wants to win. ... If Thome clears waivers, the Phillies, Angels and Indians could be among teams interested in dealing for him. All three are in pennant races. He played for the Phillies from 2003 to '05, and he broke in with Cleveland in 1991 and was there until 2002.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/morning-jolt/08/18/thursday-jolt/index.html#ixzz1VOINdCrD

[GoMuskies]

The Royals should claim him just to screw with everyone.

[Masterofreality]

This could be the best present ever for MOR. From the Minnesota paper:

The Twins gave the newest member of the 600-homer club a rest Tuesday, and Jim Thome can now turn his attention to other matters. As much as Thome doesn't want to address it, the possibility that he could end up in a pennant race -- with another team -- exists. With the Aug. 31 trade deadline approaching, a team looking for some lefthanded punch could be interested in acquiring Thome for the stretch drive. And Thome wants to win. ... If Thome clears waivers, the Phillies, Angels and Indians could be among teams interested in dealing for him. All three are in pennant races. He played for the Phillies from 2003 to '05, and he broke in with Cleveland in 1991 and was there until 2002.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/morning-jolt/08/18/thursday-jolt/index.html#ixzz1VOINdCrD

I might even forgive Dolan if he claims him.

I can see it now. Jim Thome hits a 2 out grand slam homer in the 9th to win the Central Division. Then he hits .500, with 10 homers and 25 RBI in the post season and the Indians win the WS.

After the season, Jim Thome retires, as a Hall of Famer and as a Cleveland Indian.

Both DC and I are happy. (And so is Vee).

[Masterofreality]

Welcome Home JIMMY to the place you should have never had to have left.

@hoynsie paul hoynes
GM Chris Antonetti: "It's an honor to bring Jim Thome back in an Indians uniform where he's created so many great memories."#Indians.

[GoMuskies]

Too late.

[vee4xu]

Already had plans to be at the game tomorrow night. So will see him if he's in the lineup.

[DC Muskie]

Good to see Jim come home. A place he never should have decided to leave.

Too bad it looks like we won't catch the Tigers.