Confederate "Heritage" License Plates

[xeus]

This is a good one.

http://cmsimg.nky.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=B2&Date=20110512&Category=NEWS01&ArtNo=305120078&Ref=AR&MaxW=640&Border=0

STORY (http://nky.cincinnati.com/article/b2/20110512/NEWS01/305120078)

[boozehound]

Pretty much an "I'm a hillbilly" sign for your truck. Nice.

Seriously, what is the South's preoccupation with the Civil War? First of all, they lost. Second, I would think that the whole country would rather forget about that whole thing. You don't see the Germans talking about WWII all the time.

[Masterofreality]

As a native Kentuckian, I call Bull-Sheet!

Kentucky NEVER seceeded from the Union. Yes, it was below the Mason-Dixon line, but it was NEVER a part of the conferderacy- unlike Virginia. It was also an important route for the "Underground Railroad."

Lincoln was from Kentucky. Somebody needs to get their freaking facts straight.

By the way, xeus, there is no story behind the "story".

[DC Muskie]

That's the dumbest thing I have seen in awhile.

[Jumpy]

Pretty much an "I'm a hillbilly" sign for your truck. Nice.

Seriously, what is the South's preoccupation with the Civil War? First of all, they lost. Second, I would think that the whole country would rather forget about that whole thing. You don't see the Germans talking about WWII all the time.

It's the same as Dayton's preoccupation with the 60's. that was the last time they were relevant.

[Titanxman04]

On the point of celebrating a war they lost for which they fought for slavery... I think it's just that "southern way". I'm Russian, and I'm proud of my heritage, however, then again, I don't go around celebrating communism and whatnot. Why Southerners feel it's something to celebrate, I just don't know. Just screams "racist asshole" to me, personally.

Sure, it's their history... But just because it's history, doesn't make it great. Whats the next thing we'll see? A plate for those who were locked up in Japanese Interment Camps? Plates for those who protested segregation of southern schools in Arkansas? Throw in a few who helped screw the Native Americans out of their land? What was the slaughter of the village in Vietnam thats so famous? Yea, lets get a license plate for relatives of members who were apart of that.

If there's a black eye for our country, we sure as hell need to allow those who were actually proud of those moments, to be able to show them on their license plates.

Stupid.

[DC Muskie]

On the point of celebrating a war they lost for which they fought for slavery... I think it's just that "southern way". I'm Russian, and I'm proud of my heritage, however, then again, I don't go around celebrating communism and whatnot. Why Southerners feel it's something to celebrate, I just don't know. Just screams "racist asshole" to me, personally.

Sure, it's their history... But just because it's history, doesn't make it great.

Not only that...but it's also Anti-American. These people are celebrating not wanting to be American.

But that's waaaaayyy too above their intellectual capacity to comprehend.

[Titanxman04]

Not only that...but it's also Anti-American. These people are celebrating not wanting to be American.

But that's waaaaayyy too above their intellectual capacity to comprehend.

I may be moving down to the "Heartland" here soon. The lady goes to school there and her family lives in Lex-vegas. However, they are not natives. Just an Air Force family settling a couple of years back, so naturally, I don't mind making fun of Kentucky. I just don't look forward to being surrounded by those like-minded individuals who think this whole confederate license plate is a good idea.

[MADXSTER]

FYI

In Ohio, if you wish to get a specialized plate, that plate cannot be offensive. Meaning you cannot get FUK POPO or something like that. They check to see the meaning if it's a word in a different language.

[DC Muskie]

I may be moving down to the "Heartland" here soon. The lady goes to school there and her family lives in Lex-vegas. However, they are not natives. Just an Air Force family settling a couple of years back, so naturally, I don't mind making fun of Kentucky. I just don't look forward to being surrounded by those like-minded individuals who think this whole confederate license plate is a good idea.

I went to Monticello a few months ago. The tour guide said something to me that really made me laugh about how people discuss actual history.

She said Jefferson worked hard to eliminate slavery, but unfortunately he wasn't able to see the end before he died.

No shit lady, he could look right out his window and see his own slaves. He worked so hard to eliminate slavery, he didn't start with himself.

Also I hear on the Fort Sumter tour they brag at the end that it never surrendered to the Union. Um...it's an American fort. Does it matter? Why is that an exciting tidbit?

[Porkopolis]

FYI

In Ohio, if you wish to get a specialized plate, that plate cannot be offensive. Meaning you cannot get FUK POPO or something like that. They check to see the meaning if it's a word in a different language.

Why does the state knowingly violate their own regulation by issuing UD plates?

[Titanxman04]

Why does the state knowingly violate their own regulation by issuing UD plates?

Reps.


I went to Monticello a few months ago. The tour guide said something to me that really made me laugh about how people discuss actual history.

She said Jefferson worked hard to eliminate slavery, but unfortunately he wasn't able to see the end before he died.

No shit lady, he could look right out his window and see his own slaves. He worked so hard to eliminate slavery, he didn't start with himself.

Also I hear on the Fort Sumter tour they brag at the end that it never surrendered to the Union. Um...it's an American fort. Does it matter? Why is that an exciting tidbit?

I remember going on a mission trip to Appalachia and all over the place there were stickers, carvings, flags, and t-shirts with the phrase "The South will rise again!"

Yea... not happening. My father is from Arkansas. My grand-father was a Methodist Minister who preached for integration within the public schools, and his car was vandalized and home threatened constantly. With my heritage in the south, I have a special place for it... but with the education rate that the South boasts (hey, if they're proud about slavery, they probably are proud about stupidity too), I'm not surprised that the South will actually rise up at some point again. Good luck with that you hicks.

[Snipe]

We were the only country to fight a war over slavery. Everyone else just got rid of it. What an incredible waste.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

DC,

Was it you who told me about the Secession Balls they still have down in Virginia and South Carolina?

[surfxu]

While watching some coverage of this rise of the Mississippi River and the subsequent flooding, a network reporter was interviewing someone in a little aluminum boat floating about window level of their trailer saying how they lost everything. It's really a bad situation, I do have sympathy for a lot of them...but when they pulled the camera back and there was a flagpole with a confederate flag waiving in the wind I just shook my head. I resisted the urge to chalk it up to poetic justice, cuz it's not.

Maybe this plate is really to honor Bo, Luke and Daisy from The Dukes of Hazard. That was supposedly based out of KY. It's kind of like Cincinnati having a WKRP license plate. How sweet would that be?

[paulxu]

but with the education rate that the South boasts (hey, if they're proud about slavery, they probably are proud about stupidity too), I'm not surprised that the South will actually rise up at some point again. Good luck with that you hicks.

Hey...ease up with generalizations already.

I was born and raised in Tennessee, and now live in South Carolina. There are many, many wonderful things about the South which make me very happy and fortunate to live here.

Just like everywhere, there are stupid things (confederate holdovers) and challenging things (education being just one).

But you wouldn't want me to generalize about Ohio or Xavier after reading the udpride board would you?

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

I wonder if Kentucky has secession balls

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/12/21/opinion/disunion_secessionball2/disunion_secessionball2-blog427.jpg

[xnatic03]

In the article, the head of the national organization pushing for this states something to the degree of "This is celebrating the confederate soldier. Remember they were American soldiers too". NO THEY F-ING WERE NOT!!!! They were part of the Confederate States of America, who had seceded from the USA. What a dumbass.

[DC Muskie]

DC,

Was it you who told me about the Secession Balls they still have down in Virginia and South Carolina?

Yep. Celebrating whiteness. But at least they got to wear elegant gowns.

[Juice]

Hey...ease up with generalizations already.

I was born and raised in Tennessee, and now live in South Carolina. There are many, many wonderful things about the South which make me very happy and fortunate to live here.

Just like everywhere, there are stupid things (confederate holdovers) and challenging things (education being just one).

But you wouldn't want me to generalize about Ohio or Xavier after reading the udpride board would you?

I would be pissed if someone generalized about me after they went to Stark County.

[GoMuskies]

When did it become generally accepted that the Civil War was "all about slavery"? It's almost considered racist today to suggest that there were other reasons the Civil War was fought. I don't doubt that the Confederate Flag is a symbol of racism to a lot of people who fly it (maybe even most), but that's certainly not the only meaning.

Of course, I don't really disagree that holding on to the other meanings isn't pretty stupid as well in 2011. The South can probably be proud of itself in 2011 without wishing they were a different country. They could fly SEC flags or something to tout their "southern pride" instead. It would still piss off people in many parts of the north, which I guess is the point anyway.

[X-band '01]

We were the only country to fight a war over slavery. Everyone else just got rid of it. What an incredible waste.

States' rights were another cause of the Civil War. The way the Confederate States of America was set up, it didn't have a strong central government like the Union did. It was similar to the USA after they won the Revolutionary War - state governments had more power than the federal government did at the time. It's not a coincidence that the federal government has always been strong compared to state governments since the end of the Civil War - a confederacy just doesn't work. For example, imagine each state trying to issue their own currency (i.e. Tennessee dollars, South Carolina dollars, Alabama dollars). They were worth much less compared to the US dollar at that time.

[X-band '01]

When did it become generally accepted that the Civil War was "all about slavery"? It's almost considered racist today to suggest that there were other reasons the Civil War was fought. I don't doubt that the Confederate Flag is a symbol of racism to a lot of people who fly it (maybe even most), but that's certainly not the only meaning.

Of course, I don't really disagree that holding on to the other meanings isn't pretty stupid as well in 2011. The South can probably be proud of itself in 2011 without wishing they were a different country. They could fly SEC flags or something to tout their "southern pride" instead. It would still piss off people in many parts of the north, which I guess is the point anyway.

Waving SEC flags in the North and West (or, for that matter, Appalachian State flags in Michigan) is a good and healthy hatred. The Confederate flag isn't the same in that regard.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

States' rights were another cause of the Civil War. The way the Confederate States of America was set up, it didn't have a strong central government like the Union did. It was similar to the USA after they won the Revolutionary War - state governments had more power than the federal government did at the time. It's not a coincidence that the federal government has always been strong compared to state governments since the end of the Civil War - a confederacy just doesn't work. For example, imagine each state trying to issue their own currency (i.e. Tennessee dollars, South Carolina dollars, Alabama dollars). They were worth much less compared to the US dollar at that time.

I would argue state rights was the main cause of the Civil War. Obviously slavery had a major part in it but that fell into the state rights argument.

Texas has threatened to secede numerous times in the last decade. How fast do you think that country would go under if independent?

[xudash]

I don't know where to begin with this.

I was born and raised in Ohio.

I live in one of the bastions of the Old South now.

My friends here are true friends - I'm beyond being a good Yankee to being one among them. If that sounds crazy, I don't blame you; you would have to experience something like this in your life to get it.

A redneck doesn't see it quite the same way that someone from the "plantation class" sees it - it being America now and how the South relates to the whole. I've been to black tie balls where over a thousand people have stood to belt out Dixie. I've seen some of these guys dressed in confederate officer uniforms for the Confederate Ball here to honor their ancestors. These same people also are very proud Americans. I don't know anyone among these people who would defend slavery or tolerate it today. However, they defend the mid-19th Century and before based on economic arguments. Right or wrong, they attempt to look at that issue as it was looked at back in time.

Finally, in the abstract, for every redneck KKK cross-burning, tree-lynching story you may encounter, I can show you families here where their "nannies" are practically members of the family.

Finally, with both Grant and Sherman having hailed from Ohio, when "The War of Northern Aggression" does come up, I tend to listen more than talk.

[GoMuskies]

Waving SEC flags in the North and West (or, for that matter, Appalachian State flags in Michigan) is a good and healthy hatred. The Confederate flag isn't the same in that regard.

I'm relatively certain that's exactly what I said.

[CSS85]

I know it's an unpopular position to take today, but 4 of the Southern States actually published the reason they were Seceeding, including Mississippi and South Carolina, so it really isn't a matter of opinion or interpretation. The Civil War was about States' rights - TO SLAVERY. The legal "infractions" supposedly caused by the North were regarding SLAVES, the return of escaped SLAVES, and other issues regarding the spread of SLAVERY. It bothers me a great deal, though I can understand the emotional need, that people try to claim that the Civil War was not about, and only about, SLAVERY. You can read these declarations and see what the causes were, but here is a fine summary from the Mississippi Declaration of Causes of Secession January 8, 1861 - "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest in the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important part of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization."

This seems to me a pretty unambiguous position. The rest of the documents are just as clear. It's a shame more people don't go back to original sources to find out why things happened.

[ballyhoohoo]

While watching some coverage of this rise of the Mississippi River and the subsequent flooding, a network reporter was interviewing someone in a little aluminum boat floating about window level of their trailer saying how they lost everything. It's really a bad situation, I do have sympathy for a lot of them...but when they pulled the camera back and there was a flagpole with a confederate flag waiving in the wind I just shook my head. I resisted the urge to chalk it up to poetic justice, cuz it's not.

Maybe this plate is really to honor Bo, Luke and Daisy from The Dukes of Hazard. That was supposedly based out of KY. It's kind of like Cincinnati having a WKRP license plate. How sweet would that be?

Dukes was set in Georgia

[boozehound]

I know it's an unpopular position to take today, but 4 of the Southern States actually published the reason they were Seceeding, including Mississippi and South Carolina, so it really isn't a matter of opinion or interpretation. The Civil War was about States' rights - TO SLAVERY. The legal "infractions" supposedly caused by the North were regarding SLAVES, the return of escaped SLAVES, and other issues regarding the spread of SLAVERY. It bothers me a great deal, though I can understand the emotional need, that people try to claim that the Civil War was not about, and only about, SLAVERY. You can read these declarations and see what the causes were, but here is a fine summary from the Mississippi Declaration of Causes of Secession January 8, 1861 - "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest in the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important part of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization."

This seems to me a pretty unambiguous position. The rest of the documents are just as clear. It's a shame more people don't go back to original sources to find out why things happened.

Interesting post. Kind of takes some of the oomph from the "the Civil War wasn't just about Slavery" argument. It may not have been solely about slavery but slavery was probably the single biggest cause.

I'm not saying everyone from the South is a dumb, confederate flag waving, hick. I'm not saying that everyone who flys a Confederate flag is a bad person or a supporter of slavery. I do think that they should give it up though. Just let it go.

[Porkopolis]

I'm a native West Virginian. I can promise you that in the western counties of Virginia (now the state of WV) the war was most assuredly about slavery. The Vice President of the Confederacy seems to have agreed:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1861stephens.html

[muskiefan82]

Perhaps they simply enjoy the X shape of the flag. We should just provide them with Xavier flags to fly proudly.

[EternalLife]

Men who fought with great valor and sacrificed their lives in conditions that most of us can't even begin to imagine deserve to be honoured.
This black and white understanding of the civil war and what transpired is stupid.
Lincoln reprimanded general David Hunter for trying to emancipate slaves directly, obviously the great abolitionist that Lincoln is known as, is just a cheesey generalization.
The civil war was about resources, Western expansion and the rift between the North and South was purely an economic affair.
Too often, we're sold tales of brave union troops fighting against slavery and evil confederates who were all soul sucking, demonic, slave whipping, sub human fascists.

I'm sorry but that's garbage. Similar to white washed garbage like the brave pilgrims going out and making a journey for religious freedom and settling the great land. They were goofy puritans who no one liked, shipped clear across the Atlantic and left for dead.
They were nut jobs.

Too much romanticism, too much nauseatlingly sentimental garbage.
Always a hero and a clear villain, it's almost like Nancy Grace or Glenn Beck wrote all of our history books. SMH

[Snipe]

Some interesting links:

The Official, Politically-Correct Cause of the 'Civil War' (http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo206.html)

by Thomas J. DiLorenzo

I have read DiLorenzo and I recommend him.

Here is another link:

Genesis of the Civil War (http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/civilwar.html)

by Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr.


I do believe we could have ended slavery with a Civil War. Every other country managed to do just that. Had we not fought the Civil War I think it would be absurd to think that we would still have slaves today. Most of the men fighting didn't even own Slaves.

I wish it never would have happened.

I don't blame Southerners for being nostalgic either. All the battlefields are down there. We burned cities to the ground and wiped some off the map. It affected a lot of their families. Then came the carpet baggers to try to make money off of their misery.

I don't subscribe to the Cult of Lincoln either.

[Snipe]

And what do we do with Robert E. Lee? Is he a hero? Is he allowed to be a hero? If you admire him are you a bad person?

What about the vituous North? From the New York Times (http://ideas.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/21/rape-and-the-civil-war/):


In fact, the University of North Carolina historian writes, “hundreds, perhaps thousands of women suffered rape” during the war, with many assaults likely unreported. But her focus is less rape itself than the threat of sexual predation by northern troops. Did reality match the fear of assault felt by Scarlett O’Hara in “Gone With the Wind”? Feimster explores an 1862 order by the Union Gen. Benjamin Butler, decreeing that any New Orleans woman showing contempt for his occupying troops “shall be regarded and held liable to be treated as a woman of the town plying her avocation” — i.e., the city’s outspokenly Confederate belles were to be treated as prostitutes. Feimster sifts evidence that the order was a green light for Union soldiers to threaten sexual violence if not commit rape itself.

After President Abraham Lincoln ignored calls to rescind the order and it was applied beyond the city, she concludes, its geographical reach “ensured that the threat of sexual violence and the fear of rape were common to southern women and central to how they experienced the Civil War.”

[GoMuskies]

Snipe has rape on the brain these days.

[xu95]

Snipe has rape on the brain these days.

I can't figure out how to embed the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXvZeJSUDPM&feature=relmfu

[ConfusedBulldog]

And what do we do with Robert E. Lee? Is he a hero?

Yes

I think part of the Southern fascination with the Civil War is because it was mostly fought within the South and that for men like Lee, and I'd venture to say most confederate soldiers, the reason they fought was for their state and their land. In that vein the heritage aspect comes in for many Southerners as their ancestry fought for the South more so than they fought for a socio-economic or political reason.

[DC Muskie]

Yes

I think part of the Southern fascination with the Civil War is because it was mostly fought within the South and that for men like Lee, and I'd venture to say most confederate soldiers, the reason they fought was for their state and their land. In that vein the heritage aspect comes in for many Southerners as their ancestry fought for the South more so than they fought for a socio-economic or political reason.

This is one of the biggest misconceptions of Lee. He didn't exactly embrace the Confederate thought about breaking away from the US, but he couldn't bring himself to fight against Virginia.

To me Lee is probably the biggest loser in our history. Not only did he lose the Civil War, but he lost something that he never really cared about. But people applaud his life after the war. If not killing Americans over a cause that you never believed in your fiber, means they name schools, roads and build statues after you...we should doing a lot more for other people.

[danaandvictory]

She said Jefferson worked hard to eliminate slavery, but unfortunately he wasn't able to see the end before he died.

Well, he did a lot of his own plowing.

[danaandvictory]

Men who fought with great valor and sacrificed their lives in conditions that most of us can't even begin to imagine deserve to be honoured.

Bullshit.

I bet your average Taliban asshole in Afghanistan qualifies under that rubric. And probably a fair number of Nazis.

[XUFan09]

I know it's an unpopular position to take today, but 4 of the Southern States actually published the reason they were Seceeding, including Mississippi and South Carolina, so it really isn't a matter of opinion or interpretation. The Civil War was about States' rights - TO SLAVERY. The legal "infractions" supposedly caused by the North were regarding SLAVES, the return of escaped SLAVES, and other issues regarding the spread of SLAVERY. It bothers me a great deal, though I can understand the emotional need, that people try to claim that the Civil War was not about, and only about, SLAVERY. You can read these declarations and see what the causes were, but here is a fine summary from the Mississippi Declaration of Causes of Secession January 8, 1861 - "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest in the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important part of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization."

This seems to me a pretty unambiguous position. The rest of the documents are just as clear. It's a shame more people don't go back to original sources to find out why things happened.

There's a lot of other evidence to complement this. Just the basic antebellum history indicates the importance of slavery. Every time a new state was formed, there was a big issue over whether it would be a free state or slave state. Missouri Compromise? The Compromise of 1850? Kansas-Nebraska Act? The Dred Scott decision? These were all covered in your average high school history class. All had to do with slavery. The South felt threatened by the possibility of the North bringing an end to the institution that they relied on so much. It's cute when someone says that it was "economic" motivations. Well, duh, the Southern economy was based on slavery. Some have claimed that slavery was dying in the South, that it would soon dissipate and become obsolete, but it was still a significant part of the economy.

Since the Civil War, a lot of revisionist history has gone on and still goes on today, to make what was fought for seem noble. I had teachers that said that the war was not about slavery, claiming that it was states' rights. Those rights that the South was concerned with specifically had to do with keeping slavery going.

[Perma Fro]

To me Lee is probably the biggest loser in our history. Not only did he lose the Civil War, but he lost something that he never really cared about.

Very true. He and his family lost the land that we now call Arlington National Cemetery.

[ConfusedBulldog]

To me Lee is probably the biggest loser in our history. Not only did he lose the Civil War, but he lost something that he never really cared about. But people applaud his life after the war. If not killing Americans over a cause that you never believed in your fiber, means they name schools, roads and build statues after you...we should doing a lot more for other people.

Stating Lee "lost the Civil War" is an exceedingly myopic view of a military general recognized as one of the greatest military leaders of that time. He believed in statehood and state pride and he never turned against that despite fighting an arguably un-winnable war from the start. He never fought for slavery. He's as much a hero as, say, Leonidas could be considered as such.
Schools have been named for him not only because of his state patriotism, but also because he was one of the few who reached out to black people at that time through religious education.
If anything, Lee was someone who stood by his principles and virtues and lost much because of his defense of them.
But I'll stick with Dwight D. Eisenhower in believing Lee was "one of the supremely gifted men produced by our Nation. "

[STL_XUfan]

I n the end I think the plate will be allowed. Kentucky opened the door when they decided to let any and all groups have a specialty plate (brilliant move to create the smiling sun license plate, aka the ugliest license plate ever, that way everyone pays extra for a vanity plate). If the "Choose Life" organization gets a plate then why shouldn't this group. It isn't a hate group, but a group of individuals that believe their heritage stood for something, whether or not their view is accurate.

If Kentucky wanted to limit the groups that got specialty plates they could have, but they have opened it to all groups and therefore this group has a claim to get one also.

[golfitup]

I've always been quite amused with the people who decide it's a great idea to put Confederate flag decals or bumper stickers on their cars or (more likely) trucks. There's nothing quite like advertising you're a racist bigot.

And don't give me this, "it's southern heritage" bull ess. That flag represents hate and bigotry and nothing more. Anyone who flys that flag is an effing moron who I have no time for.

[X-band '01]

Enquirer Link (http://nky.cincinnati.com/article/b2/20110512/NEWS01/305120078)

If you look at this paragraph in yesterday's article, this is why I think the plate could be disallowed:

"The sponsoring group or its message and image can't discriminate based on race or “be construed, as determined by the cabinet, as an attempt to victimize or intimidate any person due to the person's race,” the law says."

Needless to say this isn't a Dukes of Hazzard plate.

[Fred Garvin 2.0]

Bullshit.

I bet your average Taliban asshole in Afghanistan qualifies under that rubric. And probably a fair number of Nazis.

what a retarded post. going down this line of reasoning demands you recognize many tactics during the Revolutionary war were terrorist. ya know, it wasn't a genteel affair.

[Fred Garvin 2.0]

And what do we do with Robert E. Lee? Is he a hero? Is he allowed to be a hero? If you admire him are you a bad person?

What about the vituous North? From the New York Times (http://ideas.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/21/rape-and-the-civil-war/):

what a worthless link.

[Fred Garvin 2.0]

I've always been quite amused with the people who decide it's a great idea to put Confederate flag decals or bumper stickers on their cars or (more likely) trucks. There's nothing quite like advertising you're a racist bigot.

And don't give me this, "it's southern heritage" bull ess. That flag represents hate and bigotry and nothing more. Anyone who flys that flag is an effing moron who I have no time for.

yer the bigot.

[romanround]

A highlight of my college career occurred in 1966 when a fellow Muskie spotted a sportscar parked on the street in Clifton with a confederate flag front license plate and Ky rear. He promptly planted his boot so forcefully that the crumpled plate smashed the grill as well. One small statement for the civil rights movement.

[Strange Brew]

A highlight of my college career occurred in 1966 when a fellow Muskie spotted a sportscar parked on the street in Clifton with a confederate flag front license plate and Ky rear. He promptly planted his boot so forcefully that the crumpled plate smashed the grill as well. One small statement for the civil rights movement.

Awesome, your friend destroyed someone's property expressing his civil rights b/c that person was expressing their 1st amendment civil rights. I don't agree with the car owner and I find your friend to be an intolerant ass.

[xubrew]

Kentucky was not part of the Confederacy so I don't know why they would want to ebrace their Confederate heritage. That's kind of like Alabama wanting to preserve its Brazilian heritage. Nevermind that there actually isn't any. Kentucky was a slave state, but it never seceeded from the Union.

The Confederate flag that we know today was not the original flag of the Confederacy. They had three different flags, and although the last one they had in 1865 was similiar, it wasn't the same. The original was the three bars (or stripes) and eight starts. If it's confederate heritage that they really want, shouldn't they be using that flag??

The Northern States weren't slave states, but in many cases their ways of thinking were just as bigoted. Lincoln was against slavery, but he was for colonization, as was much of the north. The following statement doesn't exactly lack bigotry...


There is a natural disgust in the minds of nearly all white people to the idea of indiscriminate amalgamation of the white and black races ... A separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation, but as an immediate separation is impossible, the next best thing is to keep them apart where they are not already together. If white and black people never get together in Kansas, they will never mix blood in Kansas ...

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v13/v13n5p-4_Morgan.html

The Confederate flag doesn't bother me as much as it puzzles me. The best way I can describe my viewpoint is that those who sport the Confederate flag like to show their southern pride, and they hate being told they can't...BUT...in a weird way they LIKE HATING being told they can't. I don't think that everyone who displays it is idiologically a racist. Having said that, there is no denying that racist organizations seem to have adopted it as a symbol, and that it doesn't seem to bother too many people are not part of those organizations, yet continue to display the flag.

All that aside, though, Kentucky was never a part of the confedracy. I don't believe any major battles occurred in Kentucky. It's not part of their history. In essence, they want to preserve a heritage that they don't actually have. That strikes me as really stupid.

[Titanxman04]

Hey...ease up with generalizations already.

I was born and raised in Tennessee, and now live in South Carolina. There are many, many wonderful things about the South which make me very happy and fortunate to live here.

Just like everywhere, there are stupid things (confederate holdovers) and challenging things (education being just one).

But you wouldn't want me to generalize about Ohio or Xavier after reading the udpride board would you?

Sorry. Never meant to offend. My dad's family is from the South. Arkansas to be exact. The south produces some great people in the world too. There certainly is a dark spot on their history though, and to celebrate it, is baffling to me.

I have a very good friend who's great uncle was an S.S. Officer for the Nazis. I don't go spreading it around as it's not my rumor to sell. But you don't necessarily go get a Hitler license plate to celebrate your heritage. (For the record, she also had a grand father who was on an American sub that sunk 2 Nazi and 5 Japanese ships.)

I just think it's stupid to celebrate that.


This is one of the biggest misconceptions of Lee. He didn't exactly embrace the Confederate thought about breaking away from the US, but he couldn't bring himself to fight against Virginia.

To me Lee is probably the biggest loser in our history. Not only did he lose the Civil War, but he lost something that he never really cared about. But people applaud his life after the war. If not killing Americans over a cause that you never believed in your fiber, means they name schools, roads and build statues after you...we should doing a lot more for other people.

Lee was a great general. He felt a "duty to Virginia" to protect her land and to honor his pledge to defend her. He was not really for slavery but throughout his life, he was sold on honor. I watched a very, VERY good documentary on him called "Lee". I really recommend it. He was and continues to be an amazing character in our country's history.

[DC Muskie]

Stating Lee "lost the Civil War" is an exceedingly myopic view of a military general recognized as one of the greatest military leaders of that time. He believed in statehood and state pride and he never turned against that despite fighting an arguably un-winnable war from the start. He never fought for slavery. He's as much a hero as, say, Leonidas could be considered as such.
Schools have been named for him not only because of his state patriotism, but also because he was one of the few who reached out to black people at that time through religious education.
If anything, Lee was someone who stood by his principles and virtues and lost much because of his defense of them.
But I'll stick with Dwight D. Eisenhower in believing Lee was "one of the supremely gifted men produced by our Nation. "

I love this train of thought. We should honor a man who loved his state more than his country. Even though he really never believed in what the state was doing in terms of breaking away from the country that produced this supremely gifted man.

After the war he believed that black people shouldn't be able to vote, or own land. What a great man. They name schools after Stonewall Jackson as well. What a supremely gifted man. He was responsible for killing thousands of American men.

Why is it that states in the South think that their land, draw out by British royalty, is sooo important, that their love is actually something that should be admired? I can't think of anything more myopic.

[Fred Garvin 2.0]

I love historians. The subjectivity of this thread pretty much proves there is no such thing as objective history.

And don't get me started on how histroy is cyclical and we need to learn from it. Horseshit. History is linear.

[waggy]

Josey Wales is a great American. That is all.

[xeus]

Here's one less rebel flag plate on the roads in kentucky:

nazi punk convicted of hate crime (http://nky.cincinnati.com/article/AB/20110517/NEWS010704/305170066/Man-sentenced-2010-Covington-assault)

[romanround]

The guy who kicked in the grill thought he was striking a blow for racial equality. I was totally taken by surprise, but it just goes to show that liberals are biased bigots as well.

[boozehound]

Here's one less rebel flag plate on the roads in kentucky:

nazi punk convicted of hate crime (http://nky.cincinnati.com/article/AB/20110517/NEWS010704/305170066/Man-sentenced-2010-Covington-assault)

That is exactly the kind of guy that should just be executed. How much money are we going to spend keeping this dirtball in jail over the course of his life? How many more people will be victims of his in some way?

10 seconds after the guilty verdict he should get 2 to the head. They can probably go ahead and execute his mother too. Think of the money we would save!

[Snipe]

In times of economic scarcity those sort of ideas become more popular. We pay a lot to lock people up. I am sure a cheaper solution could be found.

[boozehound]

In times of economic scarcity those sort of ideas become more popular. We pay a lot to lock people up. I am sure a cheaper solution could be found.

I actually felt that way about this sort of thing even before economic scarcity. There is essentially zero chance that a person like this ever contributes anything positive to society and a very good chance that he will harm more people. Sounds like a pretty solid candidate for '2 to the head' to me.

[Snipe]

You could make that case for a substantial portion of the population, especially the chronic homeless and indigent that suffer from mental problems and drug addiction. We spend a lot of money on them too, with no return on investment.

Once scarcity takes a hard ride and people don't like cutting back they look for ways to ease the pain. A quick double tap to this guys head could probably fund another policeman or fireman for a year, or close to it. Then you start looking at other people in a cost/benefit way and see that they don't work out so well for all of us either.

Million Dollar Murray (http://www.gladwell.com/2006/2006_02_13_a_murray.html)


O'Bryan and Johns called someone they knew at an ambulance service and then contacted the local hospitals. "We came up with three names that were some of our chronic inebriates in the downtown area, that got arrested the most often," O'Bryan said. "We tracked those three individuals through just one of our two hospitals. One of the guys had been in jail previously, so he'd only been on the streets for six months. In those six months, he had accumulated a bill of a hundred thousand dollars—and that's at the smaller of the two hospitals near downtown Reno. It's pretty reasonable to assume that the other hospital had an even larger bill. Another individual came from Portland and had been in Reno for three months. In those three months, he had accumulated a bill for sixty-five thousand dollars. The third individual actually had some periods of being sober, and had accumulated a bill of fifty thousand."

The first of those people was Murray Barr, and Johns and O'Bryan realized that if you totted up all his hospital bills for the ten years that he had been on the streets—as well as substance-abuse-treatment costs, doctors' fees, and other expenses—Murray Barr probably ran up a medical bill as large as anyone in the state of Nevada.

"It cost us one million dollars not to do something about Murray," O'Bryan said.

Ha!

"It cost us one million dollars not to do something about Murray"

Nothing two bullets to the skull couldn't fix. Think of how many Police, Firemen, and Teachers you could afford to hire with just two bullets into Murray's skull? Think of the pensions that you could save, or your elderly parents that could get healthcare. It really is a question of resources, and we just gave a million to a crazy homeless man. Is that the right trade off? Maybe it is now, but that doesn't mean people will say the same in the coming years as the fight for resources tightens.

I am all for these cost saving ventures. I would go right down the line.

My extreme case:

Lets say the dollar collapses and the government can't function like it once did. They can't print more money because nobody will buy the bonds. Food becomes scarce and resources are hard to come by. And you happen to live by a maximum security prison. Now if you have trouble paying the bills to keep the lights on and feeding the prisoners, one of the options is to let them out, the other option is...

We all know the other option. Say you live next to it with your four daughters. I think I have an inkling on how you might vote.

I am all for saving costs. Once we hit a critical mass the floodgates will break, political correctness be damned. Onward and upward my friends!

[paulxu]

This is a good one.

This is a better one. It belongs to a "Son of Xavier." Even better, it's unique...there's not another one like it in the whole state. At the most, there are only 49 others like it anywhere.

http://www.xavierhoops.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=49&pictureid=480

[spazzrico]

This is a better one. It belongs to a "Son of Xavier." Even better, it's unique...there's not another one like it in the whole state. At the most, there are only 49 others like it anywhere.

http://www.xavierhoops.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=49&pictureid=480

I can only sport my alum sticker. :)

Just curious, are you in the upstate? Way more flags up here than in the low country or even the sandhills. I have to note that on Easter, I went to a very diverse, heavily black Catholic Church and right as I was headed in an old white dude pulled up in his old man car with a big 'ol Confederate flag emblazoned on the bumper. He seemed a bit out of place.

[GuyFawkes38]

"It cost us one million dollars not to do something about Murray"

Nothing two bullets to the skull couldn't fix. Think of how many Police, Firemen, and Teachers you could afford to hire with just two bullets into Murray's skull? Think of the pensions that you could save, or your elderly parents that could get healthcare. It really is a question of resources, and we just gave a million to a crazy homeless man. Is that the right trade off? Maybe it is now, but that doesn't mean people will say the same in the coming years as the fight for resources tightens.


Or we can spend a similar amount on health care, per person, which other 1st world countries spend with similar health care outcomes.

Health care is key.

As ridiculous as it sounds, your doctor and the system he works in poses more of a financial risk to this country than Murray.

[paulxu]

Just curious, are you in the upstate?

Yes. Spartanburg.
Were you at St. Anthony's in Greenville?

[spazzrico]

Yes. Spartanburg.
Were you at St. Anthony's in Greenville?

Yeah that's right. Good call. We live in downtown Greenville.

[Muskie]

Yeah that's right. Good call. We live in downtown Greenville.

Seriously? I love downtown Greenville. My (now) Wife lived there for three years. That is one of the nicest downtown set-ups I've seen.

[spazzrico]

Seriously? I love downtown Greenville. My (now) Wife lived there for three years. That is one of the nicest downtown set-ups I've seen.

Well, less than a mile near Cleveland Park/Greenville Zoo. We can't really live right downtown in the condos there (pricey), but we are literally in walking distance. You aren't kidding, downtown is really great and getting better.

[xu95]

Seriously? I love downtown Greenville. My (now) Wife lived there for three years. That is one of the nicest downtown set-ups I've seen.

And now she lives in beautiful Fischers Indiana.

[Muskie]

And now she lives in beautiful Fischers Indiana.

no comparison 95.

[paulxu]

Seriously? I love downtown Greenville. My (now) Wife lived there for three years. That is one of the nicest downtown set-ups I've seen.

Greenville has done a fabulous job of creating a downtonw worth visiting and living in.
Anchored their main street with Hyatt on one end, and performing arts center on the other. The real key is the small river running through it that they built out from. Restaurants, friendly atmoshphere, etc. Put new baseball field within walking distance, a mini version of Fenway park. Very fan/family friendly.

We in Spartanburg have got years to go to even think about catching up.

If your wife is a southern girl, you made a great decision.