Are police chases always necessary?

[GuyFawkes38]

I've always pondered this question, but it has become particularily relevant the past couple months in Cincy.

A couple months ago, a police chase in downtown resulted in a crash, killing a 35 year old woman and her taxi driver.

Last night a police chase killed an officer outside of Lebanon.

I have no issue with a police chase in a rural area in the middle of the night.

But is it really worth it to conduct a police chase in an area as dense as downtown Cincinnati. IMHO, in that circumstance, the police force has blood on their hands.

[wkrq59]

I believe many law enforcement officers would tell you, Guy, that they almost always are reluctant to pursue any one at high speeds, be it on city streets or country roads, in suburban villages or on Interstates.
There have been some cases where police have broken off pursuit after obtaining license plate number and calling ahead to warn other departments or their own.
But will you please tell me what you would do as a police officer if during a routine traffic stop somebody showed a gun and took off? Would you just call in a report and let the SOB flee at high speeds where he might later do harm to innocent people? What would you say if the guy in flight ran over a pedestrian or worse, shot a number of people?
I imagine there are "cowboy cops," but their job, the good cops, is still to protect the public from harm.
Along the same lines, would the same restraint you seem to prefer apply to ambulance drivers rushing a patient to a hospital to save his life and accidentally are wrecked by some idiot who doesn't pull to the right and stop? Ditto for firemen, who despite slowing down often have to deal with idiots who won't stop to let them through an intersection or around them?
Cops and firemen have a tough enough job and don't have blood on their hands IMHO,
:logo::shield::sword:

[Fred Garvin 2.0]

Cops are everyday heroes. Firemen in this city? They do a great job of washing their trucks at inflated union wages.

[wkrq59]

Cops are everyday heroes. Firemen in this city? They do a great job of washing their trucks at inflated union wages.

I couldn't disagree more about firemen. Have a heart attack in Cincinnati and you'll be damn glad to see that paramedic FIREMAN who shows up to save your ass. Or maybe he'll be too busy washing his truck and inflating those union wages. We can't pay policemen, firemen and teachers enough.:cool:

[Fred Garvin 2.0]

I couldn't disagree more about firemen. Have a heart attack in Cincinnati and you'll be damn glad to see that paramedic FIREMAN who shows up to save your ass. Or maybe he'll be too busy washing his truck and inflating those union . We can't pay policemen, firemen and teachers enough.:cool:

This country wastes a fortune on people's last year of care. It would be great if some people could man up and get a comfort DNR.

[nkymuskie]

I couldn't disagree more about firemen. Have a heart attack in Cincinnati and you'll be damn glad to see that paramedic FIREMAN who shows up to save your ass. Or maybe he'll be too busy washing his truck and inflating those union wages. We can't pay policemen, firemen and teachers enough.:cool:

Props to this. If I wasn't on my phone I would rep you.

[kyxu]

I couldn't disagree more about firemen. Have a heart attack in Cincinnati and you'll be damn glad to see that paramedic FIREMAN who shows up to save your ass. Or maybe he'll be too busy washing his truck and inflating those union wages. We can't pay policemen, firemen and teachers enough.:cool:

+1

[Porkopolis]

Right on, Q. Reps coming your way.

[MADXSTER]

My take on a police chase.... if a person is hit by a police car in a chase, the individual fleeing should be held responsible. I'm not saying give free rein to police officers as they need to be held accountable but IMO all damages that are incurred in a police chase should directly go towards the individual who prompted the chase to begin with.

Can you imagine if word got out on the street that, if you just take off the police won't chase you. Anarchy would rule.

[GuyFawkes38]

My take on a police chase.... if a person is hit by a police car in a chase, the individual fleeing should be held responsible. I'm not saying give free rein to police officers as they need to be held accountable but IMO all damages that are incurred in a police chase should directly go towards the individual who prompted the chase to begin with.

Can you imagine if word got out on the street that, if you just take off the police won't chase you. Anarchy would rule.

IMHO, that's absurd. The police should have no responsibility in a police chase. The incentives would be terrible. If a police car causes a serious crash, the police officer should be in trouble.

I'm not saying that police chases should be abolished. Just in certain circumstances, they shouldn't happen (like downtown cincy).

Let's say a criminal robs a store in downtown. Instead of starting a high speed chase that might end in the death of bystanders, collect all the evidence (liscense plate, video identification, etc...)and arrest him at his place of residence.

[drudy23]

From what I've read, the incident that killed the Warren County officer was not a chase. He was deploying stop sticks and no one was in pursuit...at least that's what the article made it seem to be.

But to answer the question...no...police pursuits are not always necessary. That's why pursuits are called off all the time, you just never hear about it. But at the same time, some are necessary.

[blobfan]

IMHO, that's absurd. The police should have no responsibility in a police chase. The incentives would be terrible. If a police car causes a serious crash, the police officer should be in trouble.

I'm not saying that police chases should be abolished. Just in certain circumstances, they shouldn't happen (like downtown cincy).

Let's say a criminal robs a store in downtown. Instead of starting a high speed chase that might end in the death of bystanders, collect all the evidence (liscense plate, video identification, etc...)and arrest him at his place of residence.

Right. Because criminals never drive stolen cars and can always be found at their address of record, where they pay for all services in their own name like good citizens. I mean, why can't we just track them through their tax records. It's not as though a criminal would ever think to flee to another jurisdiction.

[MADXSTER]

I'm not saying give free rein to police officers as they need to be held accountable


The police should have no responsibility in a police chase. The incentives would be terrible.

Okay you lost me here. I said the police officers need to be held accountable.


If a police car causes a serious crash, the police officer should be in trouble.

I think this is where we will have to agree to disagree. Who causes the crash? The police or the person not following the rules in the first place?

I'm sure there is protocol for police officers to follow in a chase. If the police officer goes over the line then yes, he should be held accountable for his actions. At the same time IMO he would never had been put in that situtation had the individual not following the rules in the first place decided to flee.



Let's say a criminal robs a store in downtown. Instead of starting a high speed chase that might end in the death of bystanders, collect all the evidence (liscense plate, video identification, etc...)and arrest him at his place of residence.

If this could be done I'm sure they would already be doing it. With all due respect I just don't see this as possible at this point in time. Maybe someday once there are camera's at every street corner following vehicles.

[GuyFawkes38]

Having policies which reduce the number of police chases would mean that more criminals would get away.

But when it comes to public safety that's a good tradeoff, IMHO.

[waggy]

We can't pay policemen, firemen and teachers enough.:cool:

This is a nice, romantic thought, but there also needs to be fiscal responsibility. I respect the work these people do, but they're not martyrs. The number of municipalities that are facing huge (tens and hundreds of millions) deficits across this country is astounding, and in about 100% of these cases public safety unions are 80%+ of the budget, and the only place to make cuts.

I don't know what's fair, but if these people are as awesome as some want to put forth, well then negotiating fair pay contracts with them shouldn't be difficult. But unfortunately I'm not seeing it. Just last evening I listened to a fire chief on the local news here state, "Homes are going to burn".

[muskienick]

This is a nice, romantic thought, but there also needs to be fiscal responsibility. I respect the work these people do, but they're not martyrs. The number of municipalities that are facing huge (tens and hundreds of millions) deficits across this country is astounding, and in about 100% of these cases public safety unions are 80%+ of the budget, and the only place to make cuts.

I don't know what's fair, but if these people are as awesome as some want to put forth, well then negotiating fair pay contracts with them shouldn't be difficult. But unfortunately I'm not seeing it. Just last evening I listened to a fire chief on the local news here state, "Homes are going to burn".

And, of course, your objective reporting on this quote was not taken a bit out of context! We have seen your extreme views about public sector unions before and this is the most extreme, self-serving thing you've said on this issue so far.

Any fair-minded person would not plant the thought in people's mind that the Chief was saying --- "If we don't get what we want in the next contract, we will see to it that damage is done to both people and property."

In fact, what the Chief almost certainly meant by this statement is that since fire stations were being shut down as a cost-saving method, there will be circumstances that the response time of the next closest units will be longer, thus making a greater likelihood that fires could burn out of control.

[waggy]

So? Let them burn. I got news for you.. they burn ANYWAY. Most of the time to the ground. Watched it happen to the house directly across the street from mine. Plenty of men on site, but burnt to the ground anyway, as giant embers soared thru the neighborhood. The neighborhood was LUCKY that day, no thanks to the firemen. :rolleyes:

[XU-PA]

My first thought when hearing about this was with the officers family, what a tragedy.

Then I read the article, the chase started because the suspect was driving a car with no tail lights. The tragedy is even worse. obviously many things happened between the first sighting and the accident, but really, did this have to escalate to this extent over a simple traffic violation? When it went to the level of a chase, would it have been so horrible if the officer had just said "screw it" we'll get him later?
Perhaps things would have finished much differently.

[muskienick]

So? Let them burn. I got news for you.. they burn ANYWAY. Most of the time to the ground. Watched it happen to the house directly across the street from mine. Plenty of men on site, but burnt to the ground anyway, as giant embers soared thru the neighborhood. The neighborhood was LUCKY that day, no thanks to the firemen. :rolleyes:

I doubt this response by you will garner much sympathy or support. You are letting your extremist philosophy get in the way of any good sense you might actually have left.

[GuyFawkes38]

My first thought when hearing about this was with the officers family, what a tragedy.

Then I read the article, the chase started because the suspect was driving a car with no tail lights. The tragedy is even worse. obviously many things happened between the first sighting and the accident, but really, did this have to escalate to this extent over a simple traffic violation? When it went to the level of a chase, would it have been so horrible if the officer had just said "screw it" we'll get him later?
Perhaps things would have finished much differently.

didn't hear what caused the chase. That's awful. IMHO, there needs to be better policies in this area.

[waggy]

I doubt this response by you will garner much sympathy or support. You are letting your extremist philosophy get in the way of any good sense you might actually have left.

Why does?

A lower budget always = fewer firefighters, longer response, "homes burn"?

Instead of:

Lower budget = same # of firefighters, lower pay?

Martyrs. Yeah.

[bleedXblue]

I didn't spend a lot of time ready all of the replies to the original post, but the arguement that police shouldn't chase criminals is ignorant (regardless of locale).
I don't want a society that tolerates any type of criminal behavior. As soon as we stop chasing/pursuing, things will only get worse and criminals will be given a free pass to do want they want to do anyway........and as a result, we'll see more innocents lives taken.

Chase them down, lock them up and put them where they belong.

[GuyFawkes38]

I didn't spend a lot of time ready all of the replies to the original post, but the arguement that police shouldn't chase criminals is ignorant (regardless of locale).
I don't want a society that tolerates any type of criminal behavior. As soon as we stop chasing/pursuing, things will only get worse and criminals will be given a free pass to do want they want to do anyway........and as a result, we'll see more innocents lives taken.

Chase them down, lock them up and put them where they belong.

You won't even acknowledge that there is a public safety component to this? That conducting a chase in downtown Cincy for a car that ran a red light might not be prudent.

[xu95]

You won't even acknowledge that there is a public safety component to this? That conducting a chase in downtown Cincy for a car that ran a red light might not be prudent.

Do you really think that their is a high speed police chase for a guy that ran a red light?

xu95

[bleedXblue]

If someone is fleeing from police, its highly likely that he/she is doing so becasue they have a multitude of things they are not wanting to face.....outstanding warrants, parole violations, drug possession, etc etc.

[blobfan]

If someone is fleeing from police, its highly likely that he/she is doing so becasue they have a multitude of things they are not wanting to face.....outstanding warrants, parole violations, drug possession, etc etc.

bodies in the trunk...stolen child in the back seat...

If someone flees from the police the assumption is they are up something pretty bad. If a law abiding citizen gets pulled over for a traffic violation and honestly doesn't feel safe, there are appropriate ways to protect themselves. They don't take off at 90 mph, running through stoplights and swerving around oncoming cars.

[xeus]

We can't pay policemen, firemen and teachers enough.:cool:

Sure we can. How much do you think the average 3rd grade teacher, no M.Ed, should make at CPS?

How much do you think PMThor should make?

[wkrq59]

Sure we can. How much do you think the average 3rd grade teacher, no M.Ed, should make at CPS?
How much do you think PMThor should make?



A hell of a lot more than both he and the police are paid. As groups, teachers, police and firemen have traditionally been grossly underpaid for what they have to do.
Parents expect teachers to be glorified babysitters and btw, educate their children. People in general are quick to scream "where's a cop when you need him," but bitch like a stuck hog when they get a ticket for running a red light or blowing a stop sign. And firemen have been falsely labelled as providing a quasi-necessary service that could be obtained cheaper by using volunteers, aka "Jolly Vollys."
But need a cop or have a fire and they're suddenly the salt of the earth.
Yeah, Xeus, I still say we don't pay them enough.:eek:

[xeus]

[/COLOR]


A hell of a lot more than both he and the police are paid. As groups, teachers, police and firemen have traditionally been grossly underpaid for what they have to do.
Parents expect teachers to be glorified babysitters and btw, educate their children. People in general are quick to scream "where's a cop when you need him," but bitch like a stuck hog when they get a ticket for running a red light or blowing a stop sign. And firemen have been falsely labelled as providing a quasi-necessary service that could be obtained cheaper by using volunteers, aka "Jolly Vollys."
But need a cop or have a fire and they're suddenly the salt of the earth.
Yeah, Xeus, I still say we don't pay them enough.:eek:

No Q, I don't want an emotional editorial from you - I could go to the OPERS page, or the IAFF if I wanted that. I want to know how much you think they should make. It's pretty easy to say "they are underpaid". (We can agree to disagree on that.) You clearly think they should be paid more. So in a perfectly just society, how much is fair?

Do you think 3rd grade teachers should make $42,000? $79,000? $235,000? You said we can't pay them enough. I'm asking you to refine your hyperbole down to a rational number. How much is fair?

Should PM Thor make $496,000? $128,000? $59,000? $34,000? (Don't include his generous pension in your calculation.)

I want your thoughts for 3rd grade teachers and for our resident firefighter, PMThor.

Thanks.

[SixFig]

This conversation is going to get ugly fast.

I hate the offseason.

[xeus]

I hate the offseason.

If that's the case, you may want to take a few months off. Pretend you're a teacher. We'll continue to rep you even though you aren't posting anything.

[GoMuskies]

If that's the case, you may want to take a few months off. Pretend you're a teacher.

Well played.