Osama Bin Laden Is Dead

[muskiefan82]

The sharks know he is dead....

449

[Snipe]

the seals went in to capture obl, not assassinate him. he didnt allow them to bring him into justice. he went for a gun, hid behind his 1 of 20 wives and got killed. i am not an obama fan but he got it right. clinton had MANY opportunities to get obl while he was in office and decided not to, and look what happened

"That statement in no longer operative"

He didn't go for a gun. He was unarmed. He didn't use his wife as a human sheild. His wife was not killed. There was not a firefight.

We caught him unarmed in his bedroom and we shot him dead. We had an order to kill.

I am fine with that. Many liberals would not be on principle but I doubt they will voice any concern since it is Obama.

We were not going to bring him back alive.

[Snipe]

Shot dead 'with money sewn into his clothes': Bin Laden was captured alive and then executed, 'claims daughter, 12' (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1383106/Osama-Bin-Laden-dead-Wife-watched-die-White-House-reveals-WASNT-armed.html#ixzz1LOjM02mL)



Osama Bin Laden's daughter has claimed he was captured alive in his Pakistani hideout and then shot by U.S. special forces, it was reported today.

Arabic news network Al-Arabiya quoted 'senior Pakistani security officials' who said the 12-year-old saw her father executed and his body dragged to a helicopter.

A Pakistani official rejected U.S. accounts of a bloody firefight, saying: 'Not a single bullet was fired from the compound at the U.S. forces and their choppers. Their chopper developed some technical fault and crashed and the wreckage was left on the spot.'

I would not be surprised if we just killed him in cold blood. I would want that. Previous reports were that we didn't have the chance, which gave liberals an excuse. The current reports are that he was unarmed. People that protested torture now condone cold blooded killing. I want to hear their voices against Obama. I bet I will be waiting....

[XULucho27]

In his interview, C.I.A. director Leon Panetta was pretty clear about this point. He said that there was standing kill order. The rules of engagement allowed for them to bring him in if he immediately surrendered and put his hands up which, obviously, he didn't do.

The SEAL team was told "we think we found Bin Laden, and you guys get to kill him" (they all cheered, which is awesome). Clearly they had all intentions of going in and giving him a double tap to the forehead. I agree that at no point were we going to take him alive. The White House has retracted and changed the story a bit but I think Panetta was pretty candid about all these points and about what seemingly happened (or as candid as the C.I.A. director can be).

Also the SEAL team was not de-briefed until yesterday and, apparently, there was no way of actually seeing what occurred inside of the complex during the raid, only outside via satellite. In which case it does stand to reason that there would be conflicting details about how the events unfolded.

Edit: Also when a government does it, technically it is no longer an assassination, it has been distinguished as a targeted killing. I like to think of it as an expedited administration of Due Process. :D

[Snipe]

For once I agree with you bookworm

On what grounds? What do you agree with? Should we have taken him alive? I don't agree with that. It appears we could have taken him alive though, and hard core libs should be livid. Is that what you agree with? I am not sure.

[boozehound]

Shot dead 'with money sewn into his clothes': Bin Laden was captured alive and then executed, 'claims daughter, 12' (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1383106/Osama-Bin-Laden-dead-Wife-watched-die-White-House-reveals-WASNT-armed.html#ixzz1LOjM02mL)


I would not be surprised if we just killed him in cold blood. I would want that. Previous reports were that we didn't have the chance, which gave liberals an excuse. The current reports are that he was unarmed. People that protested torture now condone cold blooded killing. I want to hear their voices against Obama. I bet I will be waiting....

I agree. I am fine with them killing him in cold blood. We don't want to deal with taking him alive. It is much easier to just kill him. He is an admitted mass murderer, just think of it as the death penalty executed quickly.

As far as the political aspect goes: I really don't care what liberals say about Obama. I'm just glad that Bin Laden is finally dead.

[Snipe]

I agree. I am fine with them killing him in cold blood. We don't want to deal with taking him alive. It is much easier to just kill him. He is an admitted mass murderer, just think of it as the death penalty executed quickly.

As far as the political aspect goes: I really don't care what liberals say about Obama. I'm just glad that Bin Laden is finally dead.

In his defense, he is not an admitted mass murderer.

We put that on him, I don't see a clear record where he admitted it. In our justice system he is innocent until proven guilty. We shot him unarmed in his bedroom. I do believe he was guilty, but the man never had a chance to give a confession. Far from it. It was an order to kill. We killed him. Like I said, I am alright by that, but let us not put words in his mouth.

[boozehound]

In his defense, he is not an admitted mass murderer.

We put that on him, I don't see a clear record where he admitted it. In our justice system he is innocent until proven guilty. We shot him unarmed in his bedroom. I do believe he was guilty, but the man never had a chance to give a confession. Far from it. It was an order to kill. We killed him. Like I said, I am alright by that, but let us not put words in his mouth.

Type "Al Qaeda Claims Responsibility for" into Google and you will get numerous articles to atrocities that the group he leads has claimed responsibilty for. I my mind that is enough to call him an admitted mass murderer, even if he didn't specifically claim responsibility for 911.

[xeus]

In his defense,

That's about where I stopped reading.

[bobbiemcgee]

My press release on the matter:

"Americans stormed Bin Laden's house today and killed him. Some other assholes got in the way and were also killed. We dumped his sorry ass in the ocean. Similiar treatment awaits all his followers. Get ready for the not so subtle knock on YOUR door."

[XULucho27]

In his defense, he is not an admitted mass murderer.

We put that on him, I don't see a clear record where he admitted it. In our justice system he is innocent until proven guilty. We shot him unarmed in his bedroom. I do believe he was guilty, but the man never had a chance to give a confession. Far from it. It was an order to kill. We killed him. Like I said, I am alright by that, but let us not put words in his mouth.

I think he kinda did.

Here:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,137095,00.html


In what appeared to be conciliatory language, bin Laden said he wanted to explain why he ordered the airline hijackings that hit the World Trade Center (search) and the Pentagon so Americans would know how to act to prevent another attack.

"To the American people, my talk is to you about the best way to avoid another Manhattan," he said. "I tell you: Security is an important element of human life and free people do not give up their security."

And here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/bomb-explodes-onboard-uss-cole/2011/05/02/AFv0f0mF_gallery.html#photo=1


The Oct. 12, 2000, suicide bomb attack on the USS Cole in the Yemeni port of Aden left 17 U.S. sailors dead and 39 wounded. The FBI has not linked the bombers directly to Osama bin Laden, but in a videotape the Saudi dissident boasted that his followers were responsible for the attack. Perhaps not directly in that circumstance, but still responsible.

And although it was unsuccessful, here as well:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/24/osama-bin-laden-abdulmutallab-detroit


An audio message purportedly from al-Qaida's leader, Osama bin Laden, has claimed responsibility for the Christmas Day bombing attempt on a Detroit-bound plane and vowed further attacks.

Guy killed a bunch of people. Maybe he never pulled the trigger (although I'm sure he did as a Mujahadin warrior in the 80's against the Soviets, you know when were training him and all) maybe he never pushed the button that blew up a place, we sure as hell know he never donned a suicide bomb himself, but one way or another, he ordered and helped plan the deaths of thousands. That is not in question.

[bobbiemcgee]

Knocking the guy's door down and shooting him in the face was far more humanitarian then lighting the place up with a tomahawk and killing everybody. We should be commended for our eco approach.

This is the way f'ing war goes.

[Ledgewood]

Reaction upon finding out U.S. special forces killed Binny Laden in a dramatic firefight:
http://media.knoxnews.com/media/img/photos/2011/05/02/reax04_t607.jpg


Reaction if we found out U.S. special forces entered Binny Laden's compound, captured and ID'd him, put him on his knees and killed him execution style:
http://media.knoxnews.com/media/img/photos/2011/05/02/reax04_t607.jpg

[GoMuskies]

Imagine if GW to find a way to get that many of its students to the Smith Center on a regular basis.

[STL_XUfan]

WVU Reaction to finding out we killed bin Laden

http://www.thedaonline.com/polopoly_fs/1.2215626%21/image/208098348.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_468/208098348.jpg

WVU's reaction to finding out they won a basketball game

http://www.thedaonline.com/polopoly_fs/1.2215626%21/image/208098348.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_468/208098348.jpg

WVU's reaction to finding out they lost a basketball game

http://www.thedaonline.com/polopoly_fs/1.2215626%21/image/208098348.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_468/208098348.jpg

WVU's reaction to finding out there is a sale at Kohl's this weekend

http://www.thedaonline.com/polopoly_fs/1.2215626%21/image/208098348.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_468/208098348.jpg

[Snipe]

They are saying now that they will not release the photo of Osama Bin Dead.

So to recap:

Our government said that we captured and killed Osama. No independent media was invited to view the corpse. The United Nations was not involved. No third party was invited to authenticate his death.

We then quickly buried the body at sea, and our government now refuses to release the photos.

I do believe we got Bin Laden, but it seems that our government is inspiring conspiracy theorists and spoiling for a fight.

Rush Limbaugh just said that he does believe that Osama is dead, but he isn't sure he died Sunday Night.

Wow.

That was my first thought. I still think we got him on Sunday, but what the government is doing by concealing evidence is beyond real. Nobody would have put up with this, least of all the press if George Bush tried such a bold move.

Incredible.

[Snipe]

In his defense


That's about where I stopped reading.

And you are a lawyer!

[XULucho27]

I'm not worried about the pictures. I'll be able to recreate the whole event in first person when they inevitably release the "Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 Abbottabod Expansion Pack."

[Ledgewood]

They are saying now that they will not release the photo of Osama Bin Dead.

So to recap:

Our government said that we captured and killed Osama. No independent media was invited to view the corpse. The United Nations was not involved. No third party was invited to authenticate his death.

We then quickly buried the body at sea, and our government now refuses to release the photos.

I do believe we got Bin Laden, but it seems that our government is inspiring conspiracy theorists and spoiling for a fight.

Rush Limbaugh just said that he does believe that Osama is dead, but he isn't sure he died Sunday Night.

Wow.

That was my first thought. I still think we got him on Sunday, but what the government is doing by concealing evidence is beyond real. Nobody would have put up with this, least of all the press if George Bush tried such a bold move.

Incredible.


I agree with everything you say about the government basically begging conspiracy theorists to start blogging.

But the part about "nobody" puitting up with this if Bush was in office I find to be off. I know registered Republicans that never said a bad word about him and were constatnly at his defense, just like all these Obama guys nowadays. Also, there's always the south.

I just feel like with our government, there's two teams and they have both have legions of diehard fans.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

If it is, indeed, a political ploy by the dems to make conservatives seem like conspiracy loonies as Snipe suggests, then it may go down as one of the most brilliant political plans ever.

Personally, I don't think not releasing the photos was planned as an attempt to gain votes but I'm sure Obama will gladly let the conspiracy theorists from the right run wild

[Ledgewood]

If it is, indeed, a political ploy by the dems to make conservatives seem like conspiracy loonies as Snipe suggests, then it may go down as one of the most brilliant political plans ever.

Personally, I don't think not releasing the photos was planned as an attempt to gain votes but I'm sure Obama will gladly let the conspiracy theorists from the right run wild

Wouldn't not releasing photographic evidence cost the president votes?

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Wouldn't not releasing photographic evidence cost the president votes?

I guess it could depending on your party affiliation.

I would think most people in this country believe that Osama was killed though.

Then again, 38% of registered voters believed Obama was born in another country just last week so who knows...

I am betting the pictures will leak out at some point.

[Snipe]

I agree with everything you say about the government basically begging conspiracy theorists to start blogging.

But the part about "nobody" puitting up with this if Bush was in office I find to be off. I know registered Republicans that never said a bad word about him and were constatnly at his defense, just like all these Obama guys nowadays. Also, there's always the south.

I just feel like with our government, there's two teams and they have both have legions of diehard fans.

Part of those two teams involves the American Press. Here is part of my original:


Nobody would have put up with this, least of all the press if George Bush tried such a bold move.

Incredible.

Can anyone deny that? I have said it probably five times or more on this threat and no liberal has stepped forward to discount it or even address it: If George W. Bush would have done this, what would have been the reaction? I think he would be lucky if half the people believed him personally. More that half of Democrats at one time thought he was complicit in 9/11! It really is incredible.

Ledgewood, I didn't get a good reception for not taking the party line on this, with several negative reps. Since now we can agree the government has been inviting these conspiracy theories, should I get a special dispensation?

[Snipe]

If it is, indeed, a political ploy by the dems to make conservatives seem like conspiracy loonies as Snipe suggests, then it may go down as one of the most brilliant political plans ever.

Personally, I don't think not releasing the photos was planned as an attempt to gain votes but I'm sure Obama will gladly let the conspiracy theorists from the right run wild

In your view not releasing any evidence is a no lose situation for Obama. In fact it may be one of "the most brilliant political plans ever".

[Snipe]

I guess it could depending on your party affiliation.

I would think most people in this country believe that Osama was killed though.

Then again, 38% of registered voters believed Obama was born in another country just last week so who knows...

I am betting the pictures will leak out at some point.

The pictures will indeed come out, as this event will continue to dominate the news cycle. He will draw this out as long as possible and then release the pictures.

This is a campaign move, not a presidential move.

[Ledgewood]

Part of those two teams involves the American Press. Here is part of my original:



Can anyone deny that? I have said it probably five times or more on this threat and no liberal has stepped forward to discount it or even address it: If George W. Bush would have done this, what would have been the reaction? I think he would be lucky if half the people believed him personally. More that half of Democrats at one time thought he was complicit in 9/11! It really is incredible.

Ledgewood, I didn't get a good reception for not taking the party line on this, with several negative reps. Since now we can agree the government has been inviting these conspiracy theories, should I get a special dispensation?



Circumstances are obviously a hotbed for conspiracy theorists/Obama dislikers, no doubt.

I hate that the press are on one team or the other, too. Sure, more outlets are liberal, but FoxNews does feel like 12 networks to me.

I just can't respect anyone who thinks Bush or any major American or group of Americans had anything to do with 9-11. If they could pull that off, don't you think they could have snuck some WMD's in the dessert and said they found 'em instead of admitting they couldn't find any? Sheesh.

Disirregardlessly, I'm not sure if this photo is doctored or whatever, but it looks like the death photo is out.
http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m387/jmLedgewood/osama.jpg?t=1304533957

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

The pictures will indeed come out, as this event will continue to dominate the news cycle. He will draw this out as long as possible and then release the pictures.

This is a campaign move, not a presidential move.

I can't necessarily disagree with you because there's no way to prove you are wrong. There's also no way to prove you are right.

Could it be a well calculated campaign move? Sure. Could it be a combination of Obama not wanting people to see the pictures and a campaign move? Sure. At this point though its all speculation

[XULucho27]

Yesterday Rashard Mendenhall tweeted (such a dumb word) this:


“What kind of person celebrates death? It’s amazing how people can HATE a man they have never even heard speak. We’ve only heard one side…”

and


“I just have a hard time believing a plane could take a skyscraper down demolition style.”

Today he issued this eloquently crafted and verbose retraction:


"This controversial statement was something I said in response to the amount of joy I saw in the event of a murder. I don't believe that this is an issue of politics or American pride; but one of religion, morality, and human ethics," "I wasn't questioning Bin Laden's evil acts. I believe that he will have to face God for what he has done. I was reflecting on our own hypocrisy. During 9/11 we watched in horror as parts of the world celebrated death on our soil. Earlier this week, parts of the world watched us in horror celebrating a man's death."

But no, it's o.k. because he really wrote it himself. His publicist even said so, look:


Rob Lefko of Priority Sports, which represents Mendenhall, confirmed that the running back wrote Wednesday's blog post.
"This was truly, word for word, Rashard's thoughts," Lefko told ESPN.com's James Walker. "It was not written by anyone else and not crafted by anyone else."

I know I shouldn't be angry about such things. I know there are more important things to get riled up about, however, I do not like being treated like an idiot. Just come out and say you're sorry, or better yet, say you're not; in the end i'll respect you more if you say what you really feel. Sorry just venting Steeler hate. Back on topic.

/end rant

[Snipe]

but one way or another, he ordered and helped plan the deaths of thousands. That is not in question.

Are any of those admissible in a court of law? Can we prove that any of them came for Osama?

I think he is guilty. I am glad that he is dead. It is a legal nightmare though, because it would be hard to prove any of the tapes or the quotes came from him. Even in the articles you have lines like "purported to be Bin Laden". "Purported to be Bin Laden sounds nice, but what if he said prove it? How could we prove 9/11? Is the evidence really there for a court of law?

We really don't know much about 9/11. We don't even know who the hijackers were. One guy in Saudi Arabia came forward after he was listed as one of the attackers and claimed that his passport was stolen. He obviously wasn't one of the attackers, because he was alive and in another part of the world. We don't even know if they were all Saudis, we just know that they were men that presented Saudi Passports. They could have come from any country, but recognized that Saudis got better treatment into passage into the United States because of allied status. We don't know who those people really are. We don't even know if they all actually had box cutters or how they took over the planes. That is just a theory. The planes that went into the Pentagon and the WTC both disintegrated, there was no recovery of evidence. The people on the PA plane didn't mention box cutters. It is striking how little we know about the bombings vs what we think we know.

The 9/11 report didn't even bring up the topic that there may have been a State sponsor of the terror, and they didn't do a thorough investigation of the money trail. Glaring deficiencies in my opinion. In the history of terrorism and human warfare, there has almost always been a state sponsor. Did Bin Laden really have the money? He was one of 54 kids. His wife had one child with Bin Laden's father and was then married away to someone else. He was not the Golden Child. He doesn't have the money people think that he has.

We all know he did it right? Shouldn't that just be enough? A court of law in the United States has higher standards. We did not want him in court or alive, that is why we gave an order to kill.

Here is another opinion from Angelo Codevilla in March of 2009:


There is a good reason why neither Osama nor al Qaeda appeared on U.S. intelligence screens until 1998. They had done nothing noteworthy. Since the 1998 bombings of U.S. embassies in Africa, however, and especially after director of Central Intelligence George Tenet imputed responsibility for 9/11 to Osama "game, set, and match," the CIA described him as terrorism's prime mover. It refused to countenance the possibility that Osama's associates might have been using him and his organization as a flag of convenience. As U.S. forces were taking over Afghanistan in 2001, the CIA was telling Time and Newsweek that it expected to find the high-tech headquarters from which Osama controlled terrorist activities in 50 countries. None existed. In November 2008, without factual basis and contrary to reason, the CIA continued to describe him and his organization as "the most clear and present danger to the United States." It did not try to explain how this could be while, it said, Osama is "largely isolated from the day to day operations of the organization he nominally heads." What organization?

Axiom and Opposite

Why such a focus on an organization that was never large, most of whose known associates have long since been killed or captured, and whose assets the CIA does not even try to catalogue? The CIA's official explanation, that al Qaeda has "metastasized" by spreading its expertise, is an empty metaphor. But pursuant to it, the U.S. government accepted the self-designation as "al Qaeda" of persons fighting for Sunni-Baathist interests in Iraq, and has pinned the label gratuitously on sundry high-profile terrorists while acknowledging that their connection to Osama and Co. may be emotional at most. But why such gymnastics in the face of Osama's incontrovertible irrelevance? Because focusing on Osama and al Qaeda affirms a CIA axiom dating from the Cold War, an axiom challenged during the Reagan years but that has been U.S. policy since 1993, namely: terrorism is the work of "rogue individuals and groups" that operate despite state authority. According to this axiom, the likes of Osama run rings around the intelligence services of Arab states—just like the Cold War terrorists who came through Eastern Europe to bomb in Germany and Italy and to shoot Pope John Paul II supposedly acted despite Bulgarian intelligence, despite East Germany's Stasi, despite the KGB. This axiom is dear to many in the U.S. government because it leads logically to working with the countries whence terrorists come rather than to treating them as enemies.

But what if terrorism were (as Thomas Friedman put it) "what states want to happen or let happen"? What if, in the real world, infiltrators from intelligence services—the professionals—use the amateur terrorists rather than the other way around? What is the logical consequence of noting the fact that the terrorist groups that make a difference on planet Earth—such as Hamas and Hezbollah, the PLO, Colombia's FARC—are extensions of, respectively, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Egypt, and Venezuela? It is the negation of the U.S. government's favorite axiom. It means that when George W. Bush spoke, and when Barack Obama speaks, of America being "at war" against "extremism" or "extremists" they are either being stupid or acting stupid to avoid dealing with the nasty fact that many governments wage indirect warfare.

Terrorism and it's history is a history of state sponsorship by and large. States do things that they don't want to acknowledge because they do not desire formal warfare.

Angelo goes on:


In short, insisting on Osama's supposed mastery of al Qaeda, and on equating terrorism with al Qaeda, is official U.S. policy because it forecloses questions about the role of states, and makes it possible to indict as warmongers whoever raises such questions. Osama's de facto irrelevance for seven years, however, has undermined that policy's intellectual legitimacy. How much longer can presidents or directors of the CIA wave the spectra of Osama and al Qaeda before people laugh at them?

An Intellectual House of Cards

Questioning Osama's relevance to today's terrorism leads naturally to asking how relevant he ever was, and who might be more relevant. That in turn quickly shows how flimsy are the factual foundations on which rest the U.S. government's axioms about the "war on terror." Consider: We know that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (KSM) planned and carried out 9/11. But there is no independent support for KSM's claim that he acted at Osama's direction and under his supervision. On the contrary, we know for sure that the expertise and the financing for 9/11 came from KSM's own group (the U.S. government has accepted but to my knowledge not verified that the group's core is a biological family of Baluchs). This group carried out the 1998 bombings of U.S. embassies in Africa and every other act for which al Qaeda became known. The KSM group included the perpetrators of the 1993 World Trade Center bombings Abdul Rahman Yasin, who came from, returned to, and vanished in Iraq, as well as Ramzi Yousef, the mastermind of that bombing, who came to the U.S. from Iraq on an Iraqi passport and was known to his New York collaborators as "Rashid the Iraqi." This group had planned the bombing of U.S. airliners over the Pacific in 1995. The core members are non-Arabs. They had no history of religiosity (and the religiosity they now display is unconvincing). They were not creatures of Osama. Only in 1996 did the group come to Osama's no-account band, and make it count.

In life, as in math, you must judge the function |of a factor in any equation by factoring it out and seeing if the equation still works. Factor out Osama. Chances are, 9/11 still happens. Factor out al Qaeda too. Maybe 9/11 still happens. The other bombing plots sure happened without it. But if you factor out the KSM group, surely there is no 9/11, and without the KSM group, there is no way al Qaeda would have become a household word.

Is this true?

Who knows?

Our own intelligence tells us that Osama didn't mastermind 9/11. That was KSM. We caught him and Geroge Bush tortured him. Did Osama bankroll the project with his immense wealth? He didn't have immense wealth. It appears that the funding came from elsewhere, probably from the KSM group. Osama was a charismatic figure head.

They are telling us that he lived in a compound for 6 years already by the time we captured him. He had no telephone or internet access. He didn't release videos. It appears that he may have left the war-front and given up the game. Was he really at War with us, did he have any power to do anything? I am not sure about that. We shot him, unarmed in his bedroom. Good for us because he deserved it, but that is not a court of law or any standard of justice. That is retribution, and that is fine by me.

But what if we could have taken him alive. He was unarmed in his bedroom. We could have done that. We could have tortured him and gotten some answers. If any faggot needed to be drawn, quartered and tortured it was Bin Laden. We could have used the information inside his head. What was the nature of the organization? What was the nature of the funding? How did it all come together? Only Osama could have answered so many questions. But we were not going to take him captive and torture him, we had to klll him because of lefites defending rights.

Imagine the information that he had.

[muckem muckem]

Oh Boy. Here we go. No photos to be released. Nothing. Let out the conspiracy dogs.

[XULucho27]

Are any of those admissible in a court of law? Can we prove that any of them came for Osama?
I agree that it would be difficult to attest to the veracity of the videos and other missives in which Osama purportedly takes responsibility for the attacks but it is by no means impossible. You could, for one, have a myriad of experts testify as to the similarities in voice, appearance, or any other number of characteristics of the person in the video to Osama himself. My guess is a court would allow the videos and then they become questions of weight rather than admissibility of evidence. Once those videos are in evidence they can't be objected to on grounds of hearsay since it is Osama himself saying these things. Ultimately, it would then be a matter for the jury to decide, whether the circumstantial evidence (Osama saying he did it in the video) is enough to convict him on whatever charges are brought against him.


Purported to be Bin Laden sounds nice, but what if he said prove it? How could we prove 9/11? Is the evidence really there for a court of law?

Again we really don't have to prove anything about 9/11. We wouldn't have to prove anything about how it happened, how the terrorists made their way on the planes, where they came from originally, where they trained, how long, etcetera. You would need to prove that Osama directly or indirectly contributed to the deaths of the people in those attacks. To what extent obviously depends on the charge but the tapes alone and him claiming responsibility would be enough to do so IMO.

I agree the most difficult part would be authenticating the videos and having them admitted into evidence. However, once that is done, it's all fair game and it would be very damning evidencel. So in short, yes, I believe that under our system of laws he could be convicted for those crimes. Not to mention no jury in America would find him not guilty. That I think is the bigger issue in terms of convicting him.

Edit: I do join you in your sentiments about being glad he's dead. A public trial would have only served his cause further. He would have used it to ramble about evil America and so on and so on. Not to mention a trial with lots of people gathered outside the courthouse, in a small constricted area...can you say target rich environment for a bombing?

[xavierj]

What was the point to run out the president at 11:30 Sunday night making a huge deal out of this and then saying that is it and we won't show you any proof and oh by the way we already dumped the body at sea. Heck yeah it opens up conspiracy theories. Heck I figured the guy has been dead a long time. It's not like he has been seen or heard from in like 10 years.

I bet the reason no terrorist groups are claiming he is still alive or that they will revenge him is because maybe they have not heard from him in like 10 years either. Maybe they figured he was already dead, knew he died already or maybe the knew young radicals are too young to even know who he is. This is stupid.

[bobbiemcgee]

Conspiracy theories are good for the economy. I'm all for them. New books, movies, tv shows, sell some newspapers, Seal six toys. Good stuff.

[stophorseabuse]

The Dems will just let the Republicans get all wound up about pictures, let them really come after them. After they are at a fever pitch evidence will surface, making independents realize that no matter how bad it is they just can't vote for the nutjobs on the right. Obama will carry enough of the electorate to gain 4 more years. I gotta say, I love the cat and mouse. I think the left just toys with the right politically. They let the right swing wildly until they are exhausted, then just nudge them over. It's looney toon stuff.

I would hate to be a fiscal republican. It has to be so frustrating to see your responsible beliefs destroyed by bafoons like Trump/Hannity/O'Reilly/etc.

[xeus]

Looks like some photos were leaked to Reuters...although none of Bin laden

raid photos (http://www.calgarysun.com/2011/05/04/photos-show-three-dead-men-at-bin-laden-raid-house)

[BBC 08]

For those saying we shouldn't be celebrating in the street, read this and get back to me: http://www.cnn.com/2011/LIVING/05/04/bin.laden.911.generation.react/index.html?hpt=C2

[XULucho27]

Whoa. I'm not a medical expert by any means but I see a glaring lack of bullet wounds anywhere on the front of these dudes' bodies. One to the back of the head for each perhaps? Jarring stuff.

[GoMuskies]

That's a lot of blood.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Whoa. I'm not a medical expert by any means but I see a glaring lack of bullet wounds anywhere on the front of these dudes' bodies. One to the back of the head for each perhaps? Jarring stuff.

Ya not for the feint of heart. Unfortunately I stumbled across an Terrorist beheading and a Mexican drug cartel disgusting execution awhile back. The human race can be absolutely awful to each other at times.

[xeus]

Is this true?

Who knows?



"The problem with information on the internet is that you never know if it's genuine." - Abraham Lincoln

[Snipe]

I was with Abe when he said that, and he specifically excluded my posts and observations.

And Abe could never hold his liquor. Get him too drunk and he would fall over and piss himself.

[Snipe]

Whoa. I'm not a medical expert by any means but I see a glaring lack of bullet wounds anywhere on the front of these dudes' bodies. One to the back of the head for each perhaps? Jarring stuff.


That's a lot of blood.


Ya not for the feint of heart. Unfortunately I stumbled across an Terrorist beheading and a Mexican drug cartel disgusting execution awhile back. The human race can be absolutely awful to each other at times.

One could argue that sinking to their level makes us none better. Fortunately I am not that one! I say kill the bastards and hang em high!

Terrorism is very effective. Bin Laden had hundreds of relatives. Had we been as ruthless as the terrorists we could have rounded up every one of them years ago and started killing them one by one. Somebody would have talked and we would have had him much sooner. You want to make a good omelet...

"Killing Pablo" was all about using terrorism to defeat terrorists. Turns out it is tremendously effective if you have the stomach for that kind of work. Los Pepes forever! We still deny we had anything to do with it, which is what we should do. Los Pepes couldn't have come to be as it was or succeeded without us, we just needed some plausible deniability. That is the real textbook on how to face those bastards. Fight fire with fire. I wouldn't have minded if we killed everyone in that compound, and then looked up their relatives and killed them too. You want to put an end to this type of stuff you need to clean out the pipes.

I do want the lefties to protest Obama and call him a war criminal though. He did shoot an unarmed man in his bedroom, and we shot his wife too for good measure. That is awesome.

[aramis]

http://imgur.com/1krKD.png

[Muskie]

I was with Abe when he said that, and he specifically excluded my posts and observations.

And Abe could never hold his liquor. Get him too drunk and he would fall over and piss himself.

Snipe... (and I'm being totally serious). I just saw a history channel documentary about how John Wilkes Booth may not have been killed in the farmhouse in Maryland. It is right up your alley. Documentary says he may have lived another 20-30 years in Tenn or Oklahoma if I remember correctly. It was one Brad Metzler's Decoded episodes.

I've linked here for your youtube pleasure (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR7ofsdaUe0)

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

As long as we are talking conspiracies, there's a really good one on Robert F. Kennedy called 'RFK must die'. Extremely well done. We should make a new thread for conspiracy theories. Highly recommend. Snipe you would love this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dueHTalAOWE

[Strange Brew]

As long as we are talking conspiracies, there's a really good one on Robert F. Kennedy called 'RFK must die'. Extremely well done. We should make a new thread for conspiracy theories. Highly recommend. Snipe you would love this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dueHTalAOWE

I heard that speculators and big oil are conspiring to drive up oil prices.

I heard that Gore really won Florida

I heard that bush was AWOL

I heard that tax cuts are only for the rich

I heard that the gas we exhale will destroy the Earth

Just thought I would add a few more things that some have believed based off of very thin evidence.....It cuts both ways

What... I thought we were talking about theories

[pickledpigsfeet]

Snipe... (and I'm being totally serious). I just saw a history channel documentary about how John Wilkes Booth may not have been killed in the farmhouse in Maryland. It is right up your alley. Documentary says he may have lived another 20-30 years in Tenn or Oklahoma if I remember correctly. It was one Brad Metzler's Decoded episodes.

I've linked here for your youtube pleasure (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR7ofsdaUe0)

Big fan of the Decoded show and was so glad they did one on the DB Cooper story. The Lincoln/Booth episode was good as well.

[Snipe]

I heard that speculators and big oil are conspiring to drive up oil prices.


I heard that the gas we exhale will destroy the Earth




That would be hilarious if it wasn't true.

The thought that we exhale poison is quite something.

[Snipe]

Reuters, AP photojournalists describe staging of Obama photo taken after TV announcement of bin Laden’s death (http://www.poynter.org/latest-news/als-morning-meeting/130913/reuters-ap-photojournalists-describe-staging-of-obama-photo-staged-after-announcement-of-bin-ladens-death/)


Until Wednesday, the White House debated whether to release photos showing Osama bin Laden’s body. In theory, the photos would be proof to any doubters that the terrorist is dead. But not all photos can be believed — not even when they seem to show the president of the United States making a historic speech.

Reuters White House photographer Jason Reed describes how the president made his speech to a single TV camera, then immediately after finishing, he pretended to speak for the still cameras.

Reed writes:

“As President Obama continued his nine-minute address in front of just one main network camera, the photographers were held outside the room by staff and asked to remain completely silent. Once Obama was off the air, we were escorted in front of that teleprompter and the President then re-enacted the walk-out and first 30 seconds of the statement for us.”

Maybe that is why I had to wait 66 minutes for the President to come out to speak to us after a 10:30 announcenment. Maybe we had a dispute in the coergraphy department.

And people say this stuff isn't political. After his speech he invited people in and did a recreation so he could get some great shots. Seriously. This happened. Are you kidding me?

Like the incredible Ginzu, BUT WAIT! THERE IS MORE!

Ever see this picture:

http://gatewaypundit.rightnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/white-house-osama-website.jpg

Now it comes out that they never had a live feed (http://gatewaypundit.rightnetwork.com/2011/05/good-grief-now-the-cia-admits-there-was-no-live-video-feed-during-osama-raid/). There were not watching the developments as they happened.

From the Telegraph:


Leon Panetta, director of the CIA, revealed there was a 25 minute blackout during which the live feed from cameras mounted on the helmets of the US special forces was cut off.

A photograph released by the White House appeared to show the President and his aides in the situation room watching the action as it unfolded. In fact they had little knowledge of what was happening in the compound.

Mr Panetta said: “Once those teams went into the compound I can tell you that there was a time period of almost 20 or 25 minutes where we really didn’t know just exactly what was going on. And there were some very tense moments as we were waiting for information.

People have talked about how "iconic" the photograph above is. Now we know that they weren't watching. What were they watching? Was this another photo op?

Again I will go back to the political. What reason to recreate your speech to the reporters so they could get the best photo shots? What reason to release the photo of the situation room when we know they didn't have live feed? These are photo ops! That is the reason.

Hilarious. Could someone else please accuse me of making this political now? I like the dichotomy.

[Snipe]

Telepromter Consultants! Link (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/may/3/outsider-hired-for-obama-speeches/?page=all#pagebreak)




The White House is spending tens of thousands of dollars on a public relations firm headed by Democratic image maker Michael Sheehan – once dubbed by Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton as an “extraordinary media coach” who helped her master the teleprompter.

Mr. Sheehan’s firm, Sheehan Associates, could receive more than $100,000 under a current contract and has been providing occasional speech and consulting services to the White House since 2009, federal purchasing records show.

Fear the Teleprompter! It can be heard in all 57 States.

Question: How many average American families at the median income have to pay federal tax all year just to cover the cost of the President's teleprompter consultants? Let alone his trip to Chicago to go on Oprah.

[X-band '01]

Judging by Obama's face, I'd say they were watching either a White Sox or a Bulls game.

[Snipe]

Five Mistakes the Obama Administration Has Made in the Aftermath of Bin Laden Killing (http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20110504/us_time/httpthepagetimecom20110503halperinstakemistakeswer emadexidrssfullnationyahoo)

Looks like the blew it, and this is from a liberal.

Non-Liberals can count much higher:



Usually when governments use misinformation, they use it to make themselves look good. The Obama Administration gets points for originality, insofar as it’s been using disinformation and misinformation to make itself look arbitrary, unlawful, helpless and stupid. Here’s jj’s great summary:

Okay, what do we have here:


1) There was a firefight.
2) There was no firefight.
3) Bin Laden was “resisting.”
4) Bin Laden wasn’t armed. (Makes the concept of “resisting” interesting.)
[4.a) And the newest one: the SEALS thought bin Laden was reaching for a weapon.]
5) He used his wife as a shield.
6) His wife was killed too.
7) He didn’t use his wife as a shield. She ran at a SEAL who shot her in the leg, but she’s fine.
8 ) Some other woman — the maid? — was used as a shield. By somebody. Downstairs.
9) That other woman — downstairs — was killed.
10) Maybe not. She was killed unless she wasn’t — and who was she, anyway?
11) Bin Laden’s son was killed.
12) Unless it was some other guy.
13) Bin Laden’s daughter saw him get killed. She’s undoubtedly traumatized, poor dear.
14) They were going to capture Bin Laden until the problem with the helicopter, which was:

A) It had mechanical trouble
B) It did a hard landing
C) It crashed
D) It clipped a wall with a tail rotor, effectively a crash

15.) They were never going to try to capture him; it was always a kill mission.
16.) No, it wasn’t.
17) The chopper blew up.
18) The SEALs blew it up.
19.) Panetta said yesterday the world needed proof and the photo would be released.
20.) Obama said today in an interview he taped with Steve Kroft for “60 Minutes” to be broadcast Sunday that it won’t be released. It’s too gruesome, would offend Muslim sensibilities (something he worries about a lot — I personally do not give a warm fart on a wet Wednesday about Muslim sensibilities), and how would Americans feel if Muslims released pictures of dead Americans?
21.) Kroft — who’s not a total idiot — pointed out that ever since “Black Hawk Down” days, Muslims have been doing precisely that, filming American bodies being dragged through the streets, filming Daniel Pearl’s head being cut off, filming any and everything.
22) Obama gets pissed at CBS, the tape gets cleaned up, that question disappears. (Inside info.)
23.) We got a “treasure trove” of stuff from hard drives, etc.
24.) There were no phone lines, and no internet access at the “mansion,” they didn’t even have TV — what “treasure trove?”
25.) There is obviously in the pictures of the place a large satellite dish. I guess they used it for making salads.
26.) And now, just today: apparently the idea was to capture him, but only if he was naked. There was a suspicion he might be wearing a suicide bomber type explosive vest, or belt. So if he’s not naked and you can’t see if he has a vest on or not – shoot him.

Had Obama just said he went into just Kill Bin Laden most people would have approved. They invented the firefight though, and it all cascaded from there. We shot Bin Laden unarmed in his own bedroom. Most people don't have a problem with that. Some people in his base would have though, so they appeared to concoct a story. FAIL.

The White House is giving out no more details.
[/URL]

[URL="http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110505/ts_nm/us_binladen_pakistan_raid"]
No resistance in "cold-blooded" U.S. raid: Pakistan officials (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/white-house-goes-silent-on-bin-laden-raid/2011/05/04/AF1v87rF_story.html)


(http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_BIN_LADEN?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-05-05-09-23-57)

U.S. insists firefight at Osama compound; won't release photos (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110505/india_nm/india567800_5)

It seems that they can't get their story straight, and they are afraid of admitting of going on a mission to kill someone that was undefended in cold blood.

[GoMuskies]

Pakistan is feeling bold for some unknown reason:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704810504576305033789955132.html?m od=WSJ_hp_LEFTTopStories

[XULucho27]

The REAL reason for tension in the War Room:

http://cdn-www.i-am-bored.com/media/obamacallofduty.jpg

Do you have ANY idea how hard it is to get a 25 kill streak on Call Of Duty? You'd be that anxious too.

Edit:
Pakistan is feeling bold for some unknown reason:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704810504576305033789955132.html?m od=WSJ_hp_LEFTTopStories

Well if that's the way they feel then I recant my position of leaving in "the right way" and trying not to piss off the Pakistani government. We did what we had to do, got our guy and got out. It's over, done with, get over it. I understand defending your sovereignty and telling foreign officials to not intervene in its countries affairs but to threaten with "disastrous consequences," after all the aide the U.S. has provided. Good luck with that guys.

I also find it humorous how the Pakistani government originally claimed to provide intelligence for the raid but have now caved to the anti-American sentiment of the Pakistani middle class, which, by the way, is not as prevalent as one would think (most Pakistanis couldn't care less about America, they neither love us nor hate us) and now condemn the raid. That country is a mess. The Prime Minister runs the government but the President appoints military leaders and the military is loyal to pretty much themselves only. Yes, having the most wanted man in the world 1000 yards from your most prestigious military academy really inspires confidence within the intelligence community to share our plans before executing them. I've dramatically changed my position with regards to what the U.S. should do when leaving Pakistan as newer information arrives. It's time to go, pull the plug, and for the hell of it flip em' the bird when we leave. They already don't like us so eff em. Sorry for the rant... again.

[boozehound]

Pakistan is feeling bold for some unknown reason:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704810504576305033789955132.html?m od=WSJ_hp_LEFTTopStories


ISLAMABAD—Pakistan's foreign secretary said the U.S. would face "disastrous consequences" if it carried out any more unilateral raids similar to the one that killed Osama bin Laden, and knocked back U.S. government allegations that the country had been sheltering the former al Qaeda chief.

'disastrous consequences'? I'm sure we are really concerned.

Seriously. They don't want us to carry out any raids on their land, fine. We should pull all troops and every penny of aid right now. These are a backward people that hate us anyways. F them.

[Fred Garvin 2.0]

Snipe did a double-tap on this thread.

[DC Muskie]

I hope for Snipe's sanity Obama doesn't get reelected. But if he does, I'm driving to Cincinnati to see Snipe's head explode.

[Fred Garvin 2.0]

I hope for Snipe's sanity Obama doesn't get reelected. But if he does, I'm driving to Cincinnati to see Snipe's head explode.

That would be a prodigious explosion.

[Fred Garvin 2.0]

This thread reminds me of a pretty well known quote:

“When the bell tolls three times, it will announce that I have been killed. If I am killed by common men, you and your children will rule Russia for centuries to come; if I am killed by one of your stock, you and your family will be killed by the Russian people! Pray Tsar of Russia. Pray.”

I don't even think Xeus is gonna be able to get rid of this guy.

[bobbiemcgee]

Huh? This is my 4th post...moron. I should negative rep your ass

bye.

[Fred Garvin 2.0]

Huh? This is my 4th post...moron. I should negative rep your ass

Nah, I"m enjoying your work. I was just commenting on Rasputin's indomitable spirit.
Oh, btw, I could care less about rep points.

[Snipe]

I hope for Snipe's sanity Obama doesn't get reelected. But if he does, I'm driving to Cincinnati to see Snipe's head explode.

I would actually rather have Obama win and have Congress turn Republican. We need divided government, I am hoping something like the Clinton years. The downside of that would be more pathetic Supreme Court nominees.

I have my doubts that either side will do what it takes to avoid a fiscal collapse. I think we will only make the tough choices once we are forced to do so by our creditors (China and the like).

I wouldn't mind Chris Christie entering the race.

Would we be any better off had McCain won the last election? Probably a little, but we would still be on the same path. Our government is big and we spend too much money. Things that can't go on forever, don't.

[Fred Garvin 2.0]

I would actually rather have Obama win and have Congress turn Republican. We need divided government, I am hoping something like the Clinton years. The downside of that would be more pathetic Supreme Court nominees.

I have my doubts that either side will do what it takes to avoid a fiscal collapse. I think we will only make the tough choices once we are forced to do so by our creditors (China and the like).

I wouldn't mind Chris Christie entering the race.

Would we be any better off had McCain won the last election? Probably a little, but we would still be on the same path. Our government is big and we spend too much money. Things that can't go on forever, don't.

John Mccain, let's just stop talking about that loser. It'd be nice if he'd pull a Gary Williams.

[Snipe]

He is a loser for sure. I wish he would quit. I had enough of John McCain before he ran for President twice. The only people I know who said they liked him (like Muskie Nick) didn't even vote for him. I have met few people that are true McCain fans, people that liked McCain and voted for him. Many just liked him because he was against Bush. Had he been elected though this country would still face fiscal disaster.

People have mentioned to me some other conspiracy theories that they think I would like in this thread. I will mention one of my own in this thread. It isn't pretty to read. It is about John McCain and the POW's of Vietnam:

John McCain, Sydney Schanberg, and the Vietnam POWs (http://amconmag.com/article/2010/jul/01/00010/)

Sydney Schanberg won a Pulitzer Prize for his reporting in Indo-China (Cambodia & Vietnam). He wrote what became "The Killing Fields". He isn't a nobody.

You read his stuff and you become convinced that we left people there. He talks about the evidence and the distress signal photos where American Servicemen signaled in hope to be rescued. Then he talks about the deal with the Devil, where after which it would be politically inconvenient to acknowledge the existence of the prisoners.

It hurt me when I read it the first time. I hope that it isn't true. Ever see those POW flags that were popular,"You are not Forgotten"? This article will tear your heart out. He claims they knew the Vietnamese held back POW's for money, and we never paid the money. At some point it became politically expedient to just forget the men.

It is a horrible conspiracy, but the Pulitzer Prize winner can convince you on a dark day.

I wonder what anyone here would think after reading the article. Give it a read and talk to me. When they talk about the signals that people were taught to project, and how we had photographic evidence of those signals after the end of the war my heart just drops. It is emotional.

Take a ride on that conspiracy theory, it is one of the best. I have no clue what happened and I didn't have anything to do with any of it. Just saying if we are bringing up conspiracy theories you should check that out.

It is horrible. It still afflicts me. I would gladly shake it off if I could. Give it a dance and come back to me.

[Ledgewood]

Apparently, our blood is going to be mingled with our tears.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/06/osama-bin-laden-dead-al-qaeda_n_858440.html

[XUglow]

Apparently, our blood is going to be mingled with our tears.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/06/osama-bin-laden-dead-al-qaeda_n_858440.html

Billions and Trillions of Osama's will be born.

Like Orcs, no doubt.

[Ledgewood]

well he did have like 20 kids.


what a fantastic culture. you can't judge.

[Jumpy]

Billions and Trillions of Osama's will be born.

Like Orcs, no doubt.

Someone should tell that guy that there are only 6 billion people on the planet.

[GoMuskies]

Get the conspiracy theory bandwagon out again since a group of the SEAL team that killed bin Laden died when their transport helicopter was shot down over the weekend.

http://www.infowars.com/alex-talks-to-colonel-6-about-navy-seal-team-crash-in-afghanistan/

[Ledgewood]

Get the conspiracy theory bandwagon out again since a group of the SEAL team that killed bin Laden died when their transport helicopter was shot down over the weekend.

http://www.infowars.com/alex-talks-to-colonel-6-about-navy-seal-team-crash-in-afghanistan/

I had heard on the news that none of the guys that were on the Bin Laden raid were on the chopper. Just other members of Team Six.

[Snipe]

That whole deal sucks. We needed to get out of Afghanistan years and years ago.

What a shithole that place is. It was a shithole when we found it, and it will be a shithole when we leave it. Doesn't matter how many billions we spend. Those backward tribal people aren't going to come around to a Jeffersonian Democracy. Cut the cord now.

[Ledgewood]

That whole deal sucks. We needed to get out of Afghanistan years and years ago.

What a shithole that place is. It was a shithole when we found it, and it will be a shithole when we leave it. Doesn't matter how many billions we spend. Those backward tribal people aren't going to come around to a Jeffersonian Democracy. Cut the cord now.

I agree. As do a few of my pals that served in the country. Sad.

[DC Muskie]

That whole deal sucks. We needed to get out of Afghanistan years and years ago.

What a shithole that place is. It was a shithole when we found it, and it will be a shithole when we leave it. Doesn't matter how many billions we spend. Those backward tribal people aren't going to come around to a Jeffersonian Democracy. Cut the cord now.

Calling it a shithole is being kind.

My neighbor, who is from Afghanistan, doesn't understand why we are there.

The British weren't successful.
The Soviets weren't successful.
We will be/are unsuccessful.

Why more people are not going ape shit over this I'll never know. We will NEVER improve that place. These people will not fall out of bed one day and make everything better.

The time to get out is loooong overdue.

[GoMuskies]

The time to get out is loooong overdue.

About 8 years overdue. By this time in 2003, we'd done as much as we needed to over there. It's been a huge backslide from there.

[DC Muskie]

About 8 years overdue. By this time in 2003, we'd done as much as we needed to over there. It's been a huge backslide from there.

I actually think we did as much as we could do in the first 24 hours. The rest was playing right in OBL hands of bleeding us dry financially. You could certainly make the argument that he has been winning just by our consistent presence.

[smileyy]

Orwell:


But it was also clear that an all-round increase in wealth threatened the destruction -- indeed, in some sense was the destruction -- of a hierarchical society. In a world in which everyone worked short hours, had enough to eat, lived in a house with a bathroom and a refrigerator, and possessed a motor-car or even an aeroplane, the most obvious and perhaps the most important form of inequality would already have disappeared. If it once became general, wealth would confer no distinction.




The essential act of war is destruction, not necessarily of human lives, but of the products of human labour. War is a way of shattering to pieces, or pouring into the stratosphere, or sinking in the depths of the sea, materials which might otherwise be used to make the masses too comfortable, and hence, in the long run, too intelligent.



[Perpetual war] is always so planned as to eat up any surplus that might exist after meeting the bare needs of the population . . . It is a deliberate policy to keep even the favoured groups somewhere near the brink of hardship, because a general state of scarcity increases the importance of small privileges and thus magnifies the distinction between one group and another.

[delynn10]

"John McCain, Sydney Schanberg, and the Vietnam POWs (http://amconmag.com/article/2010/jul/01/00010/)

Sydney Schanberg won a Pulitzer Prize for his reporting in Indo-China (Cambodia & Vietnam). He wrote what became "The Killing Fields". He isn't a nobody."

Read the article and it was definitely disturbing. I lost faith in our government a long time ago. Not the principles it was founded on, but our inability to live up to those principles.

On another note, my wife is in Afghanistan right now. She has only been there a little over a week, but I have asked her to gauge everyone's thoughts on whether or not what they are doing over there will make a difference. Her mission is to help train the ANA, so she will have her own thoughts on the issue rather soon.

[Snipe]

My prayers go out to your wife. I hope that this all ends well for you at least. I can't see it ending well for our country.

That Schanberg article still haunts me. I do think that we left men behind, and that we knew about it. I used to think that was just right wing fantasy, but his article tells the tale. And I hate John McCain. I really do. I don't care if he is a war hero. He had to know.

I think we are all going to hell.

[DC Muskie]

And I hate John McCain. I really do. I don't care if he is a war hero.

I don't hate John McCain, I just don't like him. What a transformation for him over the past decade. Today we have a lot of lost assets coming home today. Never to be replaced. But John wants us to be there. And the administration wants us to remind ourselves that we are at war.

No kidding. We don't need to be reminded. We need to leave.