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View Full Version : Haiti made pact w/ Devil, says Robertson



blobfan
01-13-2010, 02:50 PM
You just can't make this sh!t up.

Per the New York Times The Lede (http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/12/gleaning-information-from-haiti-online/?ref=americas), Pat Robertson said the following:
"They were under the heel of the French. You know, Napoleon the third, or whatever. And they got together and swore a pact to the devil. They said, we will serve you if you will get us free from the French. True story. And so, the devil said, okay it’s a deal."

How does he know this kind of thing, unless he's been conversing with the devil himself?

My heart goes out to the people of Haiti right now. The last thing they need is this loon twisting the knife.

DC Muskie
01-13-2010, 03:00 PM
I'm working with an organization that runs a hospital in Milot which is in north Haiti. It's a small hospital on 70 beds or so and it's amazing the work they have done with the volunteers from America that have gone down there over the last 20 years.

They certainly made no deal with the devil. I pray that everything turns out okay and quickly.

JimmyTwoTimes37
01-13-2010, 03:02 PM
You just can't make this sh!t up.

Per the New York Times The Lede (http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/12/gleaning-information-from-haiti-online/?ref=americas), Pat Robertson said the following:
"They were under the heel of the French. You know, Napoleon the third, or whatever. And they got together and swore a pact to the devil. They said, we will serve you if you will get us free from the French. True story. And so, the devil said, okay it’s a deal."

How does he know this kind of thing, unless he's been conversing with the devil himself?

My heart goes out to the people of Haiti right now. The last thing they need is this loon twisting the knife.

His controversies are truly mind boggling.

Masterofreality
01-13-2010, 03:05 PM
I thought the only confirmed pact with the devil was Beaknose's.

That being said, Robertson's an idiot.

spazzrico
01-13-2010, 03:26 PM
He also said that D.R. is prosperous. Way to live in reality Pat.

Kahns Krazy
01-13-2010, 03:59 PM
Doesn't Wyclef Jean provide a material percentage of the Hatian GDP?

Just cause she dances go-go, it don't make her a ho, no.

Juice
01-13-2010, 04:02 PM
He also said that D.R. is prosperous. Way to live in reality Pat.

They do produce countless more baseball players than Haiti so if you base it on that then I think he has a point.

XUglow
01-13-2010, 04:38 PM
I was doing a deal yesterday with the Digicel Group in Haiti, and it was about a $7,000 order for lighted pom poms, and I was sort of amazed that anyone in Haiti would be doing such a large deal for something so trivial. Anyway, things were progressing, I had a shipping address for their freight-forwarder in Miami, etc., and I asked how she was going to be paying, and then... nothing at all. This was all around 3 central time.

I went home thinking that the email silence was due to my payment question. We get a lot of squirrelly stuff in my line of business, so it wasn't unusual for someone from a third world country to just disappear. I was shocked to see that there had been an earthquake and that the devastation was so massive.

I tried the digicelgroup.com website this morning, and it was up and running, but it was very slow and didn't have any news on it. I tried to send an email to the gal, but the message came back as "Undeliverable: Delayed". I had never seen that message before. I tried to call Digicel Haiti, and my call could not be completed as dialed.

The timing here was rather bizarre. I don't know anyone from Haiti, and in 25 years of business, I have never sold anything to anyone in Haiti.

As a side note, I have been in 2 large quakes. I lived in the Bay Area in 1989 and was rocked by the Loma Prieta quake that interrupted the World Series. I lived in Japan in 1995, and I was very close to Osaka when the Kobe quake hit. In that one, I was on a Shinkansen bullet train and felt nothing, but over 5,000 people died in a place that was built to handle quakes.

waggy
01-13-2010, 04:56 PM
Robertson might have a point... You live in hurricane alley, and are devastated by a quake. Strange, and very sad. Heart goes out to those people.

Raoul Duke
01-13-2010, 05:10 PM
Robertson might have a point...

What might that point be?

BandAid
01-13-2010, 05:14 PM
What might that point be?

Most people would rather make deals with the devil than be under the French...?

waggy
01-13-2010, 05:20 PM
What might that point be?

I figured that would be fairly obvious. Don't you think it's more than a little ironic that a caribbean island would be devasted by an earthquake instead of a hurricane?

Raoul Duke
01-13-2010, 05:35 PM
I figured that would be fairly obvious. Don't you think it's more than a little ironic that a caribbean island would be devasted by an earthquake instead of a hurricane?

I'm still missing it. Why don't you just spell it out?

waggy
01-13-2010, 05:53 PM
I think Robertson is looney tunes, but some people might consider themselves cursed if they worry about getting destroyed by Hurricanes, and on top of that then get destroyed by a earthquake too. Some people might even start to think they're cursed.

Clear enough?

Xman95
01-13-2010, 06:34 PM
Most people would rather make deals with the devil than be under the French...?

Aren't they the same thing?

GuyFawkes38
01-14-2010, 11:51 PM
hmmm, why did the mods take down the other Haiti thread?

Snipe
01-14-2010, 11:55 PM
I just wasted a half and hour replying to everyone of PM Thors posts because he claimed I wasn't answering his questions. When I posted it the thread was gone. I shouldn't waste my time.

Can't tell you why they took it down or who took it down. It is not my messageboard.

bobbiemcgee
01-14-2010, 11:59 PM
I took it down, it was my thread.

Snipe
01-15-2010, 12:05 AM
Thank you.

PM Thor
01-15-2010, 12:59 AM
And I have come to the conclusion that you are the most informed idiot I have ever experienced Snipe.

Haiti needs help, and you argue over whether they deserve it, or how to go about it.

I really wish we hadn't gone to the same school, because you are the most cold blooded, heartless person I have ever met. Call me whatever you want, but after what you wrote, in the light of a tragedy like this, I can't understand how someone like you ever went to Xavier.

And I am not alone in my feelings towards you, many will back me up. Cold blooded. I wish you would take down your pic of Brian, because you don't deserve to use him as your avatar, in my humble opinion.

Snipe
01-15-2010, 01:48 AM
And I have come to the conclusion that you are the most informed idiot I have ever experienced Snipe.

Haiti needs help, and you argue over whether they deserve it, or how to go about it.

I really wish we hadn't gone to the same school, because you are the most cold blooded, heartless person I have ever met. Call me whatever you want, but after what you wrote, in the light of a tragedy like this, I can't understand how someone like you ever went to Xavier.

And I am not alone in my feelings towards you, many will back me up. Cold blooded. I wish you would take down your pic of Brian, because you don't deserve to use him as your avatar, in my humble opinion.

I think that Haiti needs help. They need both help and our prayers. What has happened to them is a tragedy.

I think Feed the Children, OxFam and the Red Cross are great ways for people to help Haitians, and I salute the people that give as well as the people that work on the ground where the rubber meets the road to truely help people. That is true humanitiarian aid and I support it.

As for the United States Government sending in 3,500 troops to invade Haiti again, I am not sure that is the best option. The last time we invaded and occupied Haiti was during the Clinton administration. We invaded them to install a government more to our own liking. It proved to be a corrupt government. In the years after, we gave billions of dollars to Haiti with nothing to show for it. It appears the money we spent didn't do much good.

2008 Funding for Haiti: 279,000,000
2009 (projected): 287,000,000
2010 (budget request): 293,000,000
Earthquake Obama pledge: 100,000,000

You are getting close to a billion right there, and Obama stressed in his speech that the 100,000,000 is just the begining.


Obama also said that the $100 million investment "will grow in the coming year as we embark on the long-term recovery from this unimaginable tragedy."

We will surely top the 1 billion mark over a three year span. That is $100 for every Haitian. I can only imagine what the "long-term" recovery package is going to cost.

In related news, the EU has pledged 3 million pounds (http://www.radiojamaica.com/content/view/24275/26/).

The IMF (which is funded primarily by us), also gave them 100 million (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1420120920100114).


The International Monetary Fund said on Thursday it will increase Haiti's existing loan program by $100 million and disburse the funds quickly to help the government rebuild from the massive earthquake....

Haiti received $1.2 billion debt relief from the IMF and World Bank in June 2009. The new funding is additional debt incurred by the country.

Where does all that money go? Billions of dollars down the memory hole, and now we are invading them again? And it is not like we have the money to spare, our country has a debt crisis that is a serious concern.

Is it cold hearted to think about the numbers in a serious way? Is it cold hearted to ask if the money we spend does any good? Is it cold hearted to ask questions before we send 3,500 troops into harms way to invade and occupy Haiti yet again? After all, it worked so well last time, and the time before that.

Can we help them without invading the country and sending troops? I think so. Is invading them even Constitutional? I don't see how without an act of Congress. Can we help them without taxpayer handouts? I think so. And if we have to send troops, isn't that what the United Nations is for? What is the United Nations for?

Snipe
01-15-2010, 02:01 AM
146 Americans died in our first occupation of Haiti which started with Woodrow Wilson.
4 Americans died in our last occupation of Haiti during the Clinton Administration.

How many of our sons and daughters is this occupation worth? Do you get to decide who lives and who dies? How many of our tax dollars is this occupation worth? I guess it is cold hearted to ask such questions. And when you have the moral high ground and God is on your side like Thor you don't even have to consider the real costs. All you have to know is that you are right and anyone that disagrees with you is a coldblooded heartless idiot.

PM Thor
01-15-2010, 02:05 AM
You will see me ignoring you Snipe. For good reason. Others will address your callousness, your utter disdain for other people.

Human beings are dying in Haiti, and you argue against giving them aid.

Snipe
01-15-2010, 02:27 AM
I am not arguing against giving them aid. I support the Red Cross and other NGOs and their efforts. Perhaps you missed that. And of the roughly 400 million or more we are prepared to spend of taxpayers money, how much of that will get down there in time to save anyone from the earthquake?

I do not want the human beings dying in Haiti to be American solidiers (again).

GuyFawkes38
01-15-2010, 04:20 AM
I'm too lazy to fully examine the argument between Snipe and Thor.

All I know is that Snipe is a great, great contributor to this site and I hope he continues to post often.

Jumpy
01-15-2010, 06:41 AM
He also said that D.R. is prosperous. Way to live in reality Pat.

He is correct, when keeping their situation in perspective. Haiti shares an island with the D.R., whcih split from Haiti's totalitarian rule in the mid-1800's. When the split happened, the D.R. claimed 2/3's of the island and, with it, nearly all of the island's natural resources. Haiti resides on the western third of the island and has virtually nothing to export when compared to the relative lushness of the D.R. side of the island. Coupled with this inherent problem is the Dominican's continued bad blood with the Haitians over their violent rule (albeit short) of the entire island.

Many Haitians leave their country to work in the D.R. in search of a better life, so they end up with the same migrant worker/illegal alien dilemma that the US has, just on a smaller scale.

Isn't it amazing what you can learn on a honeymoon?

spazzrico
01-15-2010, 07:38 AM
He is correct, when keeping their situation in perspective. Haiti shares an island with the D.R., whcih split from Haiti's totalitarian rule in the mid-1800's. When the split happened, the D.R. claimed 2/3's of the island and, with it, nearly all of the island's natural resources. Haiti resides on the western third of the island and has virtually nothing to export when compared to the relative lushness of the D.R. side of the island. Coupled with this inherent problem is the Dominican's continued bad blood with the Haitians over their violent rule (albeit short) of the entire island.

Many Haitians leave their country to work in the D.R. in search of a better life, so they end up with the same migrant worker/illegal alien dilemma that the US has, just on a smaller scale.

Isn't it amazing what you can learn on a honeymoon?

Right, but he said prosperous. In relation to Haiti, most places are prosperous. I agree that the D.R. has a lot more going for it than Haiti, but to suggest that the place is prosperous is not reality in absolute terms.

sweet16
01-15-2010, 08:09 AM
Thanks Bobbie for taking down the other Haiti thread. Unfortunately, Snipe is now feverishly backpedalling on this thread in an attempt (I guess) to atone for his faux pas on the other thread. Instead of quoting others and linking different articles he may be better served trying to develop his OWN opinions based on his OWN moral compass. And then, should said opinions be inconsistent with what is taught at X maybe consider not posting them here.

Jumpy
01-15-2010, 08:25 AM
Right, but he said prosperous. In relation to Haiti, most places are prosperous. I agree that the D.R. has a lot more going for it than Haiti, but to suggest that the place is prosperous is not reality in absolute terms.

Just trying to offer an alternate outlook. I didn't hear what he said, so I don't know exact context. Maybe he was claiming they were prosperous on a worldy level. He is crazy enough.

Snipe
01-15-2010, 08:48 AM
Thanks Bobbie for taking down the other Haiti thread. Unfortunately, Snipe is now feverishly backpedalling on this thread in an attempt (I guess) to atone for his faux pas on the other thread. Instead of quoting others and linking different articles he may be better served trying to develop his OWN opinions based on his OWN moral compass. And then, should said opinions be inconsistent with what is taught at X maybe consider not posting them here.


I don't think I need to atone nor do I think I am backpedalling. I don't think we need to invade Haiti. Check your own moral compass and keep it to yourself. If you think extending endless resources and putting our servicemen in harm's way gives you some moral high ground think again. It is always easier to spend someone elses money or some someone else's kid into a dangerous situation. How magnanimus of you. Screw you.

MD Muskie
01-15-2010, 09:08 AM
i watched that clip where Robertson made the devil deal reference. What an insane idoit, he should be committed with all the crap he spews. IF he is talking about deals with the devil than he must have one with ABC Family to still be on that channel. But here is the thing, that line wasn't what pissed me off the most. It was the reaction, or should i say lack of reaction, from the lady that was sitting next to and talking to him. I understand he is a boss and its a job, but there has to be a point where you just say "are you F*cking crazy Pat, how is any of that true?" She decided the money was better than standing up for the Haitians in their time of need. That shows needs to disbanded NOW!

sweet16
01-15-2010, 09:48 AM
I don't think I need to atone nor do I think I am backpedalling. I don't think we need to invade Haiti. Check your own moral compass and keep it to yourself. If you think extending endless resources and putting our servicemen in harm's way gives you some moral high ground think again. It is always easier to spend someone elses money or some someone else's kid into a dangerous situation. How magnanimus of you. Screw you.

Now, now, don't get your panties in a wad. I understand that you're probably a little embarassed and sensitive as a result of your post yesterday. I, as most others, would be too. It is reasonably uncommon to see a complete thread removed, but because of the incredibly distasteful content of your post someone (thank God) felt it was inappropriate for this board. It appears you're now trying to justify your earlier comments by expanding the parameters or introducing new variables........if you want to call that something other than backpedalling fine by me, I really don't care. Why don't we just agree that your comments yesterday were inappropriate and call it a day my friend?

Snipe
01-15-2010, 10:13 AM
You are so right and I am so wrong. How can I ever thank you. And don't care to debate the issue, you don't need too. You are just right because you have good intentions. Doesn't matter what the reality is. No horse too high!

The post isn't there to debate. I defended everything I said in it. I will defend everything I say in this one. If you can't argue what is in this post, I guess you have nothing to debate. Thank you and good day.

Snipe
01-15-2010, 10:33 AM
money was better than standing up for the Haitians in their time of need.

Pick any date in the calendar and any time on the clock an it will be the Haitians time of need. That country was a cesspool of humanity before the earthquake and they have always had a hand stretched in need.

Nearly 80% of the country lives below $2 a day and 50% is below $1 a day. Looks like the last invasion we staged under Clinton and all those billions didn't do much good.

sweet16
01-15-2010, 10:42 AM
You are so right and I am so wrong.

Well.......thanks. But it wasn't just me, there were several posters last night that "called you" on your post. Nevertheless, no harm no foul.......your post is now gone so no one else will see it and your above admission brings closure. You have a good day too.

danaandvictory
01-15-2010, 10:44 AM
Pick any date in the calendar and any time on the clock an it will be the Haitians time of need. That country was a cesspool of humanity before the earthquake and they have always had a hand stretched in need.

Matthew 25:34-41

Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me. Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?' And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'

bobbiemcgee
01-15-2010, 11:00 AM
Pick any date in the calendar and any time on the clock an it will be the Haitians time of need. That country was a cesspool of humanity before the earthquake and they have always had a hand stretched in need.

Nearly 80% of the country lives below $2 a day and 50% is below $1 a day. Looks like the last invasion we staged under Clinton and all those billions didn't do much good.

My original post was meant to direct donations to Catholic Relief. I do trust them to get "some" of my money to feed kids. Half the country is kids. I agree donating is like throwing money down a black hole. I won't be receiving an audited financial statement of where my money went. I'm ok with that. A tsunami, 4 hurricanes and an earthquake in the last 5+ yrs. have perpeturated the welfare state. I'm hoping the kids I'm trying to help were out checking the daily buffet @ the dump that day, instead of being crushed to death at school. I don't choose to get into the politics of giving. These little kids didn't get to choose where they were born. I don't like to see them suffering. 20% of them will not get a chance to grow up.

Snipe
01-15-2010, 11:01 AM
Well.......thanks. But it wasn't just me, there were several posters last night that "called you" on your post. Nevertheless, no harm no foul.......your post is now gone so no one else will see it and your above admission brings closure. You have a good day too.

Three posts without any debate. You add so much to the forum.

I didn't delete the post. I was glad to defend it. You are about to have your fouth post in a row complaining about it. Thats is gay.

Snipe
01-15-2010, 11:12 AM
My original post was meant to direct donations to Catholic Relief. I do trust them to get "some" of my money to feed kids. Half the country is kids. I agree donating is like throwing money down a black hole. I won't be receiving an audited financial statement of where my money went. I'm ok with that. A tsunami, 4 hurricanes and an earthquake in the last 5+ yrs. have perpeturated the welfare state. I'm hoping the kids I'm trying to help were out checking the daily buffet @ the dump that day, instead of being crushed to death at school. I don't choose to get into the politics of giving. These little kids didn't get to choose where they were born. I don't like to see them suffering. 20% of them will not get a chance to grow up.

I actually like private relief efforts. I think they are less of a "black hole" than government sponsored action. Also they are voluntary. No coersion. That is different than our government spending $400 million dollars this year or more (the budget relief plus the Obama addition). The government has to forcibly take property away from taxpayers, and the government also orders 3,500 troops on to the ground. Our troops don't have a choice in that. Our government has a lousy history with aid, especially to Haiti.

I don't like to see the kids suffering either. I just think their are limits to what we can do about it as a nation. We have given them billions and they are worse off now than they were when we last invaded them under Clinton. At some point people have to realize it isn't working and isn't worth it. Haiti is one of the most corrupt countries on earth. And who has been proping up the regime all these years? Uncle Sam. They would be better off without us. We probably caused more deaths in this earthquake than we can possibly save just because we dictate their government through coups and funding. Enough already.

DC Muskie
01-15-2010, 11:13 AM
Watch this...

I have to agree with Snipe here.

Let me write that again.

I have to agree with Snipe here.

Sending millions upon millions of dollars and American troops, to me, is not the correct way to handle this.

I'm not saying we don't send anything. But to me this is a bit extreme when who exactly is in charge? Who will make sure that money is spent the way it should be spent? Who will actually get that money? Is it me, or do we seem to have troops at the ready for whenever Haiti is in trouble?

This is exactly why organizations like the Red Cross, The United Nations, and Catholic Relief Services are for. They are geared for this. Just this past week, I have had about 50 calls and questions about what my little organization is going to do to help Haiti. Well not much.

I support a foundation called the Crudem Foundation. They run a hospital in northern Haiti. they get doctors from all over the United States to come and operate, teach, help and whatever else to these people. They have done some amazing work. This organization will do more to help Haiti then 3,500 troops or probably 100 million can.

To say Haiti has problems is the biggest understatement of the century. I'd rather support the hundreds of organizations who are equipped to handle this situation, and handle it in a way that brings some basic stability, and work from there.

Snipe
01-15-2010, 11:17 AM
Snipe 25:34-41

Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come on you jerkoffs, you were the ones who invaded the country in the first place and replaced the leadership. Then your subsidies kept those tyrants in power. The blood is on your hands, but you keep patting yourselves on the back anyway because of your supposed good intentions. You helped make that place the cesspool of humanity it is today. Learn to leave well enough alone. But instead of sending you to hell, I am going to send you to be born in Haiti.

Snipe
01-15-2010, 11:21 AM
Watch this...

I have to agree with Snipe here.

Let me write that again.

I have to agree with Snipe here.

Sending millions upon millions of dollars and American troops, to me, is not the correct way to handle this.

I'm not saying we don't send anything. But to me this is a bit extreme when who exactly is in charge? Who will make sure that money is spent the way it should be spent? Who will actually get that money? Is it me, or do we seem to have troops at the ready for whenever Haiti is in trouble?

This is exactly why organizations like the Red Cross, The United Nations, and Catholic Relief Services are for. They are geared for this. Just this past week, I have had about 50 calls and questions about what my little organization is going to do to help Haiti. Well not much.

I support a foundation called the Crudem Foundation. They run a hospital in northern Haiti. they get doctors from all over the United States to come and operate, teach, help and whatever else to these people. They have done some amazing work. This organization will do more to help Haiti then 3,500 troops or probably 100 million can.

To say Haiti has problems is the biggest understatement of the century. I'd rather support the hundreds of organizations who are equipped to handle this situation, and handle it in a way that brings some basic stability, and work from there.

Thank you. I have always held you in deep admiration DC.

blobfan
01-15-2010, 12:06 PM
i watched that clip where Robertson made the devil deal reference. What an insane idoit, he should be committed with all the crap he spews. IF he is talking about deals with the devil than he must have one with ABC Family to still be on that channel. But here is the thing, that line wasn't what pissed me off the most. It was the reaction, or should i say lack of reaction, from the lady that was sitting next to and talking to him. I understand he is a boss and its a job, but there has to be a point where you just say "are you F*cking crazy Pat, how is any of that true?" She decided the money was better than standing up for the Haitians in their time of need. That shows needs to disbanded NOW!
I heard the audio replay after I made my original post and the same thing ticked me off too. It's one thing for one nut to spout these things. It's an entirely different level of outrage when the nut has a bunch of people believing what he says without question.

My original post was meant to direct donations to Catholic Relief. I do trust them to get "some" of my money to feed kids. Half the country is kids. I agree donating is like throwing money down a black hole. I won't be receiving an audited financial statement of where my money went. I'm ok with that. A tsunami, 4 hurricanes and an earthquake in the last 5+ yrs. have perpeturated the welfare state. I'm hoping the kids I'm trying to help were out checking the daily buffet @ the dump that day, instead of being crushed to death at school. I don't choose to get into the politics of giving. These little kids didn't get to choose where they were born. I don't like to see them suffering. 20% of them will not get a chance to grow up.
You know, it's funny, but I don't have a big problem knowing that some of what I donate voluntarily might be used by people gaming the system. But I have a HUGE problem knowing that people taking government money are gaming the system because I don't have a choice in giving it.

Some guy tried to sell me food stamps at the grocery the other day. I was so mad I turned him into the cops. And I'm still kicking myself for not taking him on right there and yelling at him for trying to sell me back something that I helped pay for in the first place.

I try to give to organizations that help the homeless, knowing full well that I disagree with some of their lobbying efforts and that some people are homeless by choice. It's my choice so it's easier to accept the consequences.

I suspect this is a lot of what is bothering Snipe. We are paying to support other countries but are given no account of where our money goes.

sweet16
01-15-2010, 12:11 PM
What's the over/under on the number of posts by Snipe before THIS thread is deleted? Who is this buffoon? It's not that he just doesn't seem to grasp the concept that for many (and I assume most X grads) this is very simply a moral obligation, void of economic implications.......but more troubling is his continual use of degrading, demoralizing language to describe Haiti, the Haitian people, or the situation.

DC Muskie
01-15-2010, 12:28 PM
I try to give to organizations that help the homeless, knowing full well that I disagree with some of their lobbying efforts and that some people are homeless by choice. It's my choice so it's easier to accept the consequences.

I'm curious...what do you mean by this?

blobfan
01-15-2010, 12:42 PM
I'm curious...what do you mean by this?

I give to organizations like the Coaliltion for the Homeless and the Drop-In center because their primariy purpose is humanitarian: helping people who are out in the cold. I accept that those organizations will occasionally lobby the government for things I don't agree with like extra tax dollars being funnelled into their programs. If I limited my donations to organizations that never ask for or accept public funding, my options would be too limited. So I give money from my own pocket for humanitarian concerns but object to my tax dollars funding programs that don't require people to contribute but rather encourage them to be moochers.

Seen another way, on the rare occasions I attend a church service I put money in the basket because I believe most churches attempt to do good works, even if I don't ascribe to their doctrine. But if so much as a nickel is taken from my paycheck in tax, I want to know that it's being put to efficient use. You can use my church donation to pay for the officiants cable bill for all I care but don't you DARE give my tax money to some goof in the form of food stamps so he can go sell it at the local grocery store for mad money.

And in the case of Haiti, I'm willing to donate to organizations that will help people but I bristle at the idea of my tax dollars supporting them when all they seem to do is ask for more.

I was trying to avoid saying that. Don't want to kick them when they are down. But hearing some of the strident demands for help over the last couple of days is starting to weigh on me. If you see my bleeding on the side of the road, I'm not going to demand your help unless you were the one that ran me over. I might ask for it, but I'll be appreciative and not see it as my right.

DC Muskie
01-15-2010, 12:50 PM
I give to organizations like the Coaliltion for the Homeless and the Drop-In center because their primariy purpose is humanitarian: helping people who are out in the cold.

Do you mean people who are actually out in cold weather, or "Out in the Cold" like they are screwed and now homeless?

MD Muskie
01-15-2010, 12:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Muskie
money was better than standing up for the Haitians in their time of need.



Pick any date in the calendar and any time on the clock an it will be the Haitians time of need. That country was a cesspool of humanity before the earthquake and they have always had a hand stretched in need.

Nearly 80% of the country lives below $2 a day and 50% is below $1 a day. Looks like the last invasion we staged under Clinton and all those billions didn't do much good.

Don't miss interpret my post. I am not trying to add any fuel to the fire that has been started here. my post was meant to show the lack of respect shown by the anchor from that show. She would rather cash a paycheck than stand up to any senile idiotic sentence that comes out of Pat Robertson's mouth.

You all can argue about donating cash or not to Haiti, that is your business. but please don't take a line from my post that had nothing to do with your arguement and try to twist into your argument.

blobfan
01-15-2010, 01:09 PM
Do you mean people who are actually out in cold weather, or "Out in the Cold" like they are screwed and now homeless?

Out in the cold=homeless. Whatever the reason. The organizations I know of that serve the homeless do not generally care about WHY someone is homeless. They assist anyone that shows up at their door.

chico
01-15-2010, 01:31 PM
Watch this...

I have to agree with Snipe here.

Let me write that again.

I have to agree with Snipe here.

Sending millions upon millions of dollars and American troops, to me, is not the correct way to handle this.

I'm not saying we don't send anything. But to me this is a bit extreme when who exactly is in charge? Who will make sure that money is spent the way it should be spent? Who will actually get that money? Is it me, or do we seem to have troops at the ready for whenever Haiti is in trouble?

This is exactly why organizations like the Red Cross, The United Nations, and Catholic Relief Services are for. They are geared for this. Just this past week, I have had about 50 calls and questions about what my little organization is going to do to help Haiti. Well not much.

I support a foundation called the Crudem Foundation. They run a hospital in northern Haiti. they get doctors from all over the United States to come and operate, teach, help and whatever else to these people. They have done some amazing work. This organization will do more to help Haiti then 3,500 troops or probably 100 million can.

To say Haiti has problems is the biggest understatement of the century. I'd rather support the hundreds of organizations who are equipped to handle this situation, and handle it in a way that brings some basic stability, and work from there.

I completely agree with this. And I think DC has a better perspective than the rest of us because of the type of job he's in.



What's the over/under on the number of posts by Snipe before THIS thread is deleted? Who is this buffoon? It's not that he just doesn't seem to grasp the concept that for many (and I assume most X grads) this is very simply a moral obligation, void of economic implications.......but more troubling is his continual use of degrading, demoralizing language to describe Haiti, the Haitian people, or the situation.

I think Snipe has said we should send aid now because of this tragedy. But I think his main point is that, under normal circumstances, he has a problem sending money and forces to help prop up a country like Haiti. I tend to agree, especially when we have so many problems here in the US. We should definitely help countries when disaster hits - and we should be doing all we can to help out Haiti now - but under normal circumstances maybe we should think twice about where our money is going and just what it's being used for.

the one thing I find ironic, though, is that for all the Christian goodness you claim Snipe should have, you still feel the need to call him a buffoon. I have no problem with voicing your opinion about his post, but the personal stuff...

DC Muskie
01-15-2010, 01:33 PM
I accept that those organizations will occasionally lobby the government for things I don't agree with like extra tax dollars being funnelled into their programs. If I limited my donations to organizations that never ask for or accept public funding, my options would be too limited. So I give money from my own pocket for humanitarian concerns but object to my tax dollars funding programs that don't require people to contribute but rather encourage them to be moochers.

Couple of questions. Sorry for all the questions by the way.

How do you think governments handle homeless situations? Or the mentally ill? How do you think they provide the services needed?



Seen another way, on the rare occasions I attend a church service I put money in the basket because I believe most churches attempt to do good works, even if I don't ascribe to their doctrine. But if so much as a nickel is taken from my paycheck in tax, I want to know that it's being put to efficient use. You can use my church donation to pay for the officiants cable bill for all I care but don't you DARE give my tax money to some goof in the form of food stamps so he can go sell it at the local grocery store for mad money.

What do you think are acceptable expenses for governments?


Out in the cold=homeless. Whatever the reason. The organizations I know of that serve the homeless do not generally care about WHY someone is homeless. They assist anyone that shows up at their door.

Actually if they are any good at their jobs, knowing exactly why they show up at your door might help them stop coming to your door in the future.


And in the case of Haiti, I'm willing to donate to organizations that will help people but I bristle at the idea of my tax dollars supporting them when all they seem to do is ask for more.

I was trying to avoid saying that. Don't want to kick them when they are down. But hearing some of the strident demands for help over the last couple of days is starting to weigh on me. If you see my bleeding on the side of the road, I'm not going to demand your help unless you were the one that ran me over. I might ask for it, but I'll be appreciative and not see it as my right.

I don't disagree with this thinking. Working in social service I can tell you it's pretty weighing when everyone and their brother want to give you things that you don't need, or can't actually send down. It's even more weighing when you watch your government ship over anything and everything to try and help. I admire the desire to help. I respect the actual process of doing it right and in a reasonable way.

boozehound
01-15-2010, 01:34 PM
I actually like private relief efforts. I think they are less of a "black hole" than government sponsored action. Also they are voluntary. No coersion. That is different than our government spending $400 million dollars this year or more (the budget relief plus the Obama addition). The government has to forcibly take property away from taxpayers, and the government also orders 3,500 troops on to the ground. Our troops don't have a choice in that. Our government has a lousy history with aid, especially to Haiti.

I don't like to see the kids suffering either. I just think their are limits to what we can do about it as a nation. We have given them billions and they are worse off now than they were when we last invaded them under Clinton. At some point people have to realize it isn't working and isn't worth it. Haiti is one of the most corrupt countries on earth. And who has been proping up the regime all these years? Uncle Sam. They would be better off without us. We probably caused more deaths in this earthquake than we can possibly save just because we dictate their government through coups and funding. Enough already.

I agree with this. We cannot help every suffering person in the world. You can replace Haiti with most African countries, and probably about 50 other countries in the world that have painfully low standards of living, and the song is the same. We can send hundreds of millions in government aid, much of which ends up in the hands of the brutal dictators that are causing the situation, but is it really making a dent.

I don't like to see people suffering either, but to act like America has the duty, or even the ability, to help them all is just ludicrous and impossible. The situation sucks, but it is reality.

waggy
01-15-2010, 01:47 PM
I find it ironic that scripture is quoted to defend giving taxpayer money away, when so many of the liberal persuasion want to stamp out any acknowledgement of God at the government level.

blobfan
01-15-2010, 02:25 PM
Couple of questions. Sorry for all the questions by the way.

How do you think governments handle homeless situations? Or the mentally ill? How do you think they provide the services needed?

When I come up with the answer I'll let you know, right after I submit my self nomination to the nobel committee. One thing I'm sure of is that people are not entitled to handouts and shouldn't receive them if they are not held accountable. At least not when the funding for such things are forcibly taken from someone else's pockets. Yes, I'm referring to taxes again. It's only the threat of jail that encourages me to pay my ridiculous tax bill in full so yes, it's money forcibly taken.

Some people are just stubborn and won't look for help. They sure do seem willing to take it, though. A recent Cincinnati Enquirer (http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20100114/NEWS01/1150316/)article comes to mind. Me, if I didn't earn it, I'm not comfortable accepting it.


What do you think are acceptable expenses for governments?

In an ideal world: very little. Defense and trade. I want to be a Libertarian but I'm too much of a realist. Speaking as a pragmatist, the government needs to fill some gaps left by the private and benevolent sectors but because the government uses money not given voluntarily, they have a greater duty to hold recipients of public largesse accountable for what they do with it. Yes, I know there are a lot of forms that need to be completed and hurdles to jump through, but that's red tape, not accountability.


Actually if they are any good at their jobs, knowing exactly why they show up at your door might help them stop coming to your door in the future.

Yes but most are more concerned with addressing the symptoms not the underlying problems. For some it's deliberate blindness: they prefer to believe all people are honest and good. Others are simply overwhelmed.


I don't disagree with this thinking. Working in social service I can tell you it's pretty weighing when everyone and their brother want to give you things that you don't need, or can't actually send down. It's even more weighing when you watch your government ship over anything and everything to try and help. I admire the desire to help. I respect the actual process of doing it right and in a reasonable way.

This is why when global disasters strike I tend to step back rather than immediately open my pocketbook. I wait to find out what global NGO seems to be most involved and donate to their general fund.

I may be the only American who didn't make a donation to the 9/11 funds. I made a decent donation to the Red Cross general fund and didn't specify where it should go. And I made a donation to my company's foundation because I trust them to do right. Same with the Tsunami and Hurricane Katrina. I figure I either trust the organization to do the best with my money or I don't donate to them.

**Wow. This is a long friggin post and I'm not sure how much anyone cares about my own personal philosophy. DC asked the questions ans I'd feel rude not responding. But I'm starting to feel off-topic and a bit Snipe-ish so perhaps DC can PM me if anything else is unclear?

bobbiemcgee
01-15-2010, 02:45 PM
2 Snipe's would would create an immediate donation request from XH for increased bandwidth.

DC Muskie
01-15-2010, 02:55 PM
Whenever this type of topic comes up I'm always curious about the generalizations that seem to float about.

Believe me I'm no expert, but someone has to tell me what percent of homeless people they think feel they are entitled to something. Does anybody know?

I do know this. There are good people, and there are bad people. There are good people who have perfect homes, jobs, don't suffer mental illness, etc. There are also bad people who have the same things either earned, or received by birthright. The same can be said about homeless people. Or mentally ill. Or whatever. Good and bad.

The reason I asked so many question blobfan is that I get the feeling you think that government should be completely out of the business of providing social services. That somehow having mentally ill people (almost 99% of homeless people are mentally ill) roaming the streets is not something governments should be involved with.

And to a point I agree.

However, almost every major city in the world farms out those services to organizations to run those programs. So when you say that the Collation for the Homeless is lobbying for more funding, it's not like they are trying to expand the number of shelters in NYC. They are working with the government to try and resolve an issue. Granted it's an issue that will never go away, but it's still an issue.

I guess I differ a little here because I want to live in a society that at least attempts to assist people who's daily lives are lived in a world I cannot possibly fathom. I have an office that I go to about once a week or so, they service mentally ill and homeless people. I can't say I have ever met one that felt that they were entitled to anything. Except maybe a candy bar or something. If left to the city, these people would live in group homes, where the city of DC has shown it is incapable of caring for them. So I would gladly pay taxes to ensure that my government is making sure someone is taking care of them and not standing at every train station asking me for money.

What's the line, taxes are the price we pay for living in a civil society. It's funny when I lived in DC I thought my taxes were high, until I moved to Maryland! Watch out brother! Holy cow, the People's Republic of Montgomery County!

I don't have kids, so should I be upset that my tax dollars go to public schools? I drive on the streets, and yet I still run into potholes. I wonder where my money goes and how it's supposed to help my life, and there are times I don't see it.

My program accepts food stamps. I hate food stamps because it takes about 40 minutes to process the suckers. But I have seen people come to my program using food stamps to purchase food and now it accounts for 3% of my revenue. Up 50% from six months ago. Not one of them feels entitled to something. They're just trying to make it from one month to another.

Anyway, I'm not expert on housing. That's Snipe's deal.

I wanted to add something. I was looking to get involved in something abroad. I do a lot of local things, and this doctor got me involved in Haitian organization. I've learned a lot about this country and I'm telling you my deepest hope is we get out as soon as possible. And I mean that in the most sincerest fashion.

blobfan
01-15-2010, 03:23 PM
DC, I essentially agree with you on what society should do. Where we differ is I see government as being only one piece of society, and not the one that should be funding every benevolent project imaginable. I think many of these problems are going to take experimentation and creativity if we are ever to make a dent and government just plane shouldn't be experimenting with tax dollars. Not to mention that government required red tape is a lot of what's wrong with many NGOs and charitable organizations, at least as far as I've heard.

danaandvictory
01-15-2010, 03:29 PM
I find it ironic that scripture is quoted to defend giving taxpayer money away, when so many of the liberal persuasion want to stamp out any acknowledgement of God at the government level.

I was responding to Snipe's assertion that Haiti is a "human cesspool." I was expressing no opinion on the foreign aid question.

Snipe
01-15-2010, 04:52 PM
I wanted to add something. I was looking to get involved in something abroad. I do a lot of local things, and this doctor got me involved in Haitian organization. I've learned a lot about this country and I'm telling you my deepest hope is we get out as soon as possible. And I mean that in the most sincerest fashion.

I am with you but I don't like the odds of it happening. By Monday we will have 10,000 troops down there.


(link (http://www.canada.com/news/Long+term+security+Haiti+daunting+prospect/2442701/story.html)) But even as the Pentagon rushes to meet urgent security and humanitarian needs, leaders from the United States and other Western nations — including Canada — are already grappling with a bigger question. Will the massive international response to the earthquake mark the start of a long-term commitment to prevent Haiti from sliding once again into crime-ridden chaos?


"All of the effort is in saving lives right now and that's as it should be. But even while you have all your attention into saving lives, you've got to be planning for a much larger security apparatus for weeks and months to come," says Kara McDonald, a Haiti expert with the Council on Foreign Relations in Washington. "The challenges they are going to face in medium and long-term security issues are going to be enormous, and are going to run the gamut."

It really is ugly down there. Reuters reported today that Haitian officials have already put 40,000 in mass graves and they expect 100,000 more.

I also found this (http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1953379_1953494_1953819,00.html?xid=rss-topstories#ixzz0civRu3Zx):


The U.S. military has had its share of experience with Port-au-Prince's gangs. As Perito points out, they can often be political in nature, "forming around charismatic and ruthless Robin Hood figures" who thrive amid the kind of chaos and suffering that has descended on Haiti this week. In 1994, when the U.S. invaded Haiti to reinstall coup-ousted President Jean-Bertrand Aristide, American soldiers faced militia-style gangs loyal to coup leader Raoul Cédras. Ten years later, ironically, U.S. forces were whisked in to help subdue the chimères, or "monsters" — gangs loyal to Aristide, who had just been overthrown for good by conservative rebels.

A nation as destitute and unequal as Haiti, of course, is fertile soil for seething gangbangers who are looking to tie criminal gain to a social cause. A 2008 report Perito co-wrote notes that "powerful elites from across [Haiti's] political spectrum [exploit] gangs as instruments of political warfare, providing them with arms, funding and protection from arrest." After Aristide's downfall, they assumed more independence, stepping up drug trafficking and kidnapping for ransom activities that were responsible for some of the decade's more horrific murders, including those of young children.

My present fear is that in this political climate Haiti is ripe for an outbreak of civil war. Not just machette weilding and looting gangs, which have recently been reported. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1243561/Haiti-earthquake-Furious-survivors-pile-corpses-road-blocks-demand-emergency-aid.html) Haitians love political violence and civil war to them seems as much as a game as anything else.

"When ya ain't got nothing, ya got nothing to lose".

Pray for our troops. If the blood letting starts, I can't see us pulling out because we never like to look weak. More than anything we would probably double down. I have to wonder if Haiti is worth it. I don't think it is.

Snipe
01-15-2010, 04:57 PM
2 Snipe's would would create an immediate donation request from XH for increased bandwidth.

Two Snipes would be so awesome. Even just one Snipe is awesome! Everyone loves the Snipeman. I just wish that cloning was already a finished science. I would clone 15 David Wests for our roster and 10,000 Snipes to pack the Tas. It would be heaven on earth.

Imagine the power the Army of Snipe would have. I could hold my own Tea Parties.

DC Muskie
01-16-2010, 07:32 AM
I am with you but I don't like the odds of it happening. By Monday we will have 10,000 troops down there.

If that is true, that is not good. Not good at all.

GuyFawkes38
01-16-2010, 09:24 AM
Not sure if anyone else caught David Brooks last Nytimes article, but I found it interesting because he confronts the whole "voodoo" thing (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/15/opinion/15brooks.html):


Third, it is time to put the thorny issue of culture at the center of efforts to tackle global poverty. Why is Haiti so poor? Well, it has a history of oppression, slavery and colonialism. But so does Barbados, and Barbados is doing pretty well. Haiti has endured ruthless dictators, corruption and foreign invasions. But so has the Dominican Republic, and the D.R. is in much better shape. Haiti and the Dominican Republic share the same island and the same basic environment, yet the border between the two societies offers one of the starkest contrasts on earth — with trees and progress on one side, and deforestation and poverty and early death on the other.

As Lawrence E. Harrison explained in his book “The Central Liberal Truth,” Haiti, like most of the world’s poorest nations, suffers from a complex web of progress-resistant cultural influences. There is the influence of the voodoo religion, which spreads the message that life is capricious and planning futile. There are high levels of social mistrust. Responsibility is often not internalized. Child-rearing practices often involve neglect in the early years and harsh retribution when kids hit 9 or 10.

We’re all supposed to politely respect each other’s cultures. But some cultures are more progress-resist

I'm a materialist when it comes to this sort of thing. In all likelihood, the fatalistic voodoo religion is more of a sign of poverty than a cause. But it is true that most who practice voodoo live in poverty and the practice of voodoo doesn't help.

GuyFawkes38
01-16-2010, 07:46 PM
I know I probably shouldn't say such a thing, but I strongly urge everyone NOT to donate to Haiti.

By all accounts, there is more than enough cash in the system. There is more than enough supplies tagged for Haiti. The problem is infrastructure. Sadly, more donations won't help that part of the operation.

It seems almost irresponsible for Bush and Clinton to beg people for more donations when more donations won't help anyone in Haiti.

There are many reputable charities out there who don't face delivery obstacles and desperately need cash.

Edit: I googled search to see if anyone else out there agrees and found this: http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/01/15/dont-give-money-to-haiti/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+felix-all+%28Felix+Salmon+-+All%29

The truth.

blobfan
01-16-2010, 07:53 PM
Looks like there's a telethon scheduled for next Friday. It's on the schedule for all 4 networks. Wonder if they will try to recreate the 9/11 one or do a more traditional telethon.

I think a lot of money is heading to Haiti.

Masterofreality
01-17-2010, 07:25 AM
I know that Guy posted parts of the article above, but please read the entire piece.

David Brooks is arguably the smartest man in America, or at least tied with George Will.

The Underlying Tragedy in Haiti (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/15/opinion/15brooks.html)

vee4xu
01-17-2010, 12:43 PM
Wow, good discussion all around, but where do you guys who've opined so much get the time to do it. Not only on this thread, but others as well. The research, the typing, the thinking. God bless you.

Snipe
01-17-2010, 09:22 PM
I know that Guy posted parts of the article above, but please read the entire piece.

Brooks is arguabDavid ly the smartest man in America, or at least tied with George Will.The Underlying Tragedy in Haiti (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/15/opinion/15brooks.html)

Thomas Sowell gets my vote.

Strange Brew
01-17-2010, 09:27 PM
Thomas Sowell gets my vote.

Agree, I also appreciate Charles Krauthammer.

Juice
01-17-2010, 10:54 PM
Thomas Sowell gets my vote.

Amen. But the African-American race dismisses him as an Uncle Tom and continues to listen to morons like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

Masterofreality
01-18-2010, 07:21 AM
Thomas Sowell gets my vote.


Agree, I also appreciate Charles Krauthammer.

Can't really argue with any of them. How about a 4 way tie?

I guess I appreciate Brooks because he does his thing in a lava pit of boilng liberalism, yet thinks clearly and independently.

The rest of the New York Times I use as a drop cloth, after obtaining it for free.

DC Muskie
01-18-2010, 10:05 AM
Good article I think.

This week will be incredibly important in how we move forward with Haiti. Am I wrong, but I heard on the radio this morning that America now has 12,500 troops and civilian workers in Haiti at this moment.

That is stunning.

I had a meeting with one of my board members who got me involved with the Crudem Foundation and the hospital I mentioned earlier. He told me that the hospital now has converted a soccer field into an outdoor hospital where people who can, are traveling north to get help. The problem however, is getting supplies in. A carrier ship sits just outside their northern port with supplies, but the basic infrastructure of getting them unloaded, cataloged and distributed properly is still a problem.

I mention this, because now I am hearing that our (America) efforts our being questioned. Meaning, how we are distributing the supplies and that entire process is being questioned. Like, how much, to whom, the entire gamut.

This goes back to my earlier question of "Who is in charge?" As Mr. Brooks points out, this is not a natural disaster problem, it is a poverty problem. I had one person whose son is down there working the relief effort say, "The best thing would be to level the entire city and build from scratch."

Now my question is, is it our (America) responsibility to do so?

DC Muskie
01-26-2010, 09:03 AM
Did I just hear today that Haiti says it will take five to ten years to recover from this earthquake?

Man, this is not good.

JimmyTwoTimes37
01-26-2010, 10:31 AM
Good article I think.

This week will be incredibly important in how we move forward with Haiti. Am I wrong, but I heard on the radio this morning that America now has 12,500 troops and civilian workers in Haiti at this moment.

That is stunning.


Now my question is, is it our (America) responsibility to do so?


Did I just hear today that Haiti says it will take five to ten years to recover from this earthquake?

Man, this is not good.

Add those 12,500 troops to the over 500,000 military personal deployed on over 700 bases with troops in over 150 countries(Do we really need a presence in 37 European countries?). If we still have 50,000+ troops in Germany and 30,000+ in Japan (Granted strategic and training positions), I'd say 5-10 years is not likely...
I also hear talk of people wanting Haiti to become a state or territory? Any truth to that or is it just people blowing smoke?

Juice
01-26-2010, 10:58 AM
I also hear talk of people wanting Haiti to become a state or territory? Any truth to that or is it just people blowing smoke?

The rest of the world's heads would explode.

Snipe
01-26-2010, 11:26 AM
The United States needs Haiti like I need a case of the clap.

Ten years is about a decade too long in my book.

Snipe
01-26-2010, 11:34 AM
Now my question is, is it our (America) responsibility to do so?

Of course! It is our burden. (http://www.online-literature.com/kipling/922/)


Take up the White Man's burden--
The savage wars of peace--
Fill full the mouth of Famine,
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
(The end for others sought)
Watch sloth and heathen folly
Bring all your hope to nought.

Xman95
01-26-2010, 12:13 PM
The United States needs Haiti like I need a case of the clap.

So are you saying that the U.S. has had Haiti in the past and its ownership of Haiti is now flaring up again?


http://img.search.com/thumb/2/28/SheMayLookCleanBut.jpg/280px-SheMayLookCleanBut.jpg

Xman95
01-26-2010, 12:21 PM
"Avoid the clap." - Jimmy Dugan

http://redstatebluestate.mlblogs.com/tom_hanks.jpg

JimmyTwoTimes37
01-26-2010, 12:23 PM
http://www.eatwriterun.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/no_clap.jpg

sweet16
01-26-2010, 01:04 PM
Of course! It is our burden. (http://www.online-literature.com/kipling/922/)

Thank God the majority of Americans don't share the same callous, racist mindset as this buffoon. Why does he feel so compelled to attach an economic condition to something like this?

Snipe
01-26-2010, 01:16 PM
Thank God the majority of Americans don't share the same callous, racist mindset as this buffoon. Why does he feel so compelled to attach an economic condition to something like this?

DC asked the question: "is it our (America) responsibility to do so?" I think he is not so sure. I don't think it is. I don't think he is a racist, and I don't view myself as one. Calling someone racist that you don't agree with is like so 2009 dude. Get with the times mouth breather.

sweet16
01-26-2010, 01:34 PM
DC asked the question: "is it our (America) responsibility to do so?" I think he is not so sure. I don't think it is. I don't think he is a racist, and I don't view myself as one. Calling someone racist that you don't agree with is like so 2009 dude. Get with the times mouth breather.

My comments weren't directed at DC they were directed towards you. I don't have any issues with the manner in which DC positions his questions to stimulate conversation. You on the otherhand had a post in the original thread regarding Haiti that was so vile and vulgar the thread was ultimately taken down. Grow up!

Snipe
01-26-2010, 02:05 PM
What specifically do you have a problem with? What specifically is racist?

bobbiemcgee
01-26-2010, 02:34 PM
What specifically do you have a problem with? What specifically is racist?

Well, you quoted a racist and white supremacist. The old english bastard who was anti- Irish Independence, so wouldn't get my vote.

Snipe
01-26-2010, 04:04 PM
So we can't quote Woodrow Wilson? What about slave owner Thomas Jefferson, or white supremacist Abraham Lincoln? Should all of history be ignored in quest for political correctness?

Kahns Krazy
01-26-2010, 04:32 PM
Looks like there's a telethon scheduled for next Friday. It's on the schedule for all 4 networks. Wonder if they will try to recreate the 9/11 one or do a more traditional telethon.

I think a lot of money is heading to Haiti.

The Red Cross has never hidden the fact that they use high profile tragedies to raise funds for the work they do year round. They don't remind you of it in every commercial, but they co-mingle most of the funds as long as they are not designated for a particular purpose. I'm not sure how they'll be treating the text donations for texting "Haiti" to 90999. To me, that implies a certain designation

Celebrity telethons nauseate me. My views on what my rights are as it relates to my personal property are well known. When George Clooney gets on TV and tries to guilt me into giving my money to his cause du jour, I want to throw poop on him. If you really want me to pay attention to your cause, George, try selling your $6 million vacation house and giving all that money first.

Snipe
01-26-2010, 04:35 PM
Imagine if Bush was President. Do you think the news coverage of our response time would have been different?

American X
01-26-2010, 05:22 PM
Imagine if Bush was President. Do you think the news coverage of our response time would have been different?

Haiti: Obama's Katrina (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703808904575025091656446622.html?m od=WSJ_Opinion_LEFTTopOpinion)

Not sure I agree.

sweet16
01-26-2010, 05:36 PM
What specifically do you have a problem with? What specifically is racist?

Here is my problem. I firmly believe that other people visit this board and draw some general conclusions abour our university as a result of the content on this board. Now you can disagree with that statement and that is fine but please recognize that your disagreement in no way diminishes the strength of my convictions.

Now, having said that, it is my opinion that your rhetoric describing Haiti, the Haitian people, and this tragic event (in the original thread) was in poor taste (to put it mildly). This is the second time that you felt compelled to make reference to The White Man's Burden. Clearly, that work is open to various interpretations but one prevailing interpretation is that it represents a rather perverse application of imperialism with a dominant racial component. It is my feeling that your use of that reference within the context of this discussion is also in poor taste.

I suspect that I graduated from X long before you. The Xavier that I know (or knew) and the Xavier that I love would not respond to this tragedy by saying, again?, for how long this time?, how much it will cost?, nor would it carry any political and/or economic attachments. To the contrary, the response would be very simply "how can I help".

bobbiemcgee
01-26-2010, 06:12 PM
Rut ro, I sense a multi-quote post from Snipe coming on as he hits the back half of a 12 pac.

waggy
01-26-2010, 06:59 PM
Haiti: Obama's Katrina (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703808904575025091656446622.html?m od=WSJ_Opinion_LEFTTopOpinion)

Not sure I agree.

I didn't read very far into that story at all, but neither Obama or the US is responsible for Haiti. Of course, I also always felt blaming Bush for the Katrina response was political BS too.

BandAid
01-26-2010, 07:16 PM
Rut ro, I sense a multi-quote post from Snipe coming on as he hits the back half of a 12 pac.

http://image.examiner.com/images/blog/wysiwyg/image/2pac-latimes.jpg
http://hiphopselection.blogosfere.it/images/2pac.jpg
http://img.hipersonica.com/2008/10/2pac.jpg

BandAid
01-26-2010, 07:17 PM
http://o.aolcdn.com/feedgallery/music/i/2/2pac/07-2pac-140807.jpg
http://o.aolcdn.com/feedgallery/music/i/2/2pac/14-2pac-140807.jpg
http://jennitt.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/2pac.jpg

2pac x 6 = 12pac

That is all. You guys can get back to your bickering now. Sorry it took two posts (only allowed four pictures per post).

Juice
01-26-2010, 08:10 PM
Paul Shirley has a "Snipe-like" take on Haiti. People aren't happy.

Snipe, I just phrase Shirley's opinion like that just because I am afraid if I don't Sweet16 will come after me and feed me to the Haitian poor.

http://deadspin.com/5457689/paul-shirley-to-haiti-go-help-yourself

principal
01-26-2010, 08:26 PM
Right, because you know all of those predominately white countries Snipe thinks we should support. Oh wait, that's right, this has nothing to do with racism, you are an ass trying to find racism where it does not exist. You are a jackass.

GuyFawkes38
01-26-2010, 08:43 PM
Right, because you know all of those predominately white countries Snipe thinks we should support. Oh wait, that's right, this has nothing to do with racism, you are an ass trying to find racism where it does not exist. You are a jackass.

I'm not sure if Snipe agrees, but I've always felt like the US should use its influence to rescue Sweden from its pop music.

principal
01-26-2010, 08:53 PM
I'm not sure if Snipe agrees, but I've always felt like the US should use its influence to rescue Sweden from its pop music.

LOL. Actually, I like Swedish pop music, or at least some it. In particular the band Irene:

http://www.myspace.com/ireneswe

Strange Brew
01-26-2010, 09:08 PM
I'm not sure if Snipe agrees, but I've always felt like the US should use its influence to rescue Sweden from its pop music.

HAHAHA, good stuff Guy. I love Tupac as well.....I like where this thread is going? :D

bobbiemcgee
01-26-2010, 09:22 PM
Hey Bandaid, that was only a 5 pac of tupac

JimmyTwoTimes37
01-26-2010, 09:24 PM
Pat Robertson was/is a huge Tupac fan. Not Notorious BIG though. He's West Coast all the way

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_HuV_NHMdPd0/RwVl_GNBP4I/AAAAAAAAAYc/X_4VZyxuXR8/s320/PatRobertson+hailing+satan.jpg

Strange Brew
01-26-2010, 09:27 PM
This just in.....Danny Glover said that Global Warming, er Climate Change killed Tupac. I had no idea that SUVs were East side to the core.

SixFig
01-26-2010, 09:29 PM
This just in.....Danny Glover said that Global Warming, er Climate Change killed Tupac. I had no idea that SUVs were East side to the core.

I chuckled at this

BandAid
01-26-2010, 09:33 PM
Hey Bandaid, that was only a 5 pac of tupac

I count 6...and they all look like Tupac...but just in case, here's another:

http://www.geomundos.com/juegos/la_patrulla_estilo/tupac_foto_23804bcdunkopkh.jpg

DC Muskie
01-27-2010, 07:44 AM
The Red Cross has never hidden the fact that they use high profile tragedies to raise funds for the work they do year round. They don't remind you of it in every commercial, but they co-mingle most of the funds as long as they are not designated for a particular purpose. I'm not sure how they'll be treating the text donations for texting "Haiti" to 90999. To me, that implies a certain designation

Celebrity telethons nauseate me. My views on what my rights are as it relates to my personal property are well known. When George Clooney gets on TV and tries to guilt me into giving my money to his cause du jour, I want to throw poop on him. If you really want me to pay attention to your cause, George, try selling your $6 million vacation house and giving all that money first.

I had friends that used to run the Red Cross emergency fund raiser mailers. Basically when a tragedy hit, the Red Cross would send out mailings, emails, whatever to get awareness and ask for money. A certain percentage of that money is never designated, while a lot of t is. the point being, having money given specifically to a cause helps relive the Red Cross of spending from general accounts.

As for the celebrity thing, I never watch that crap. In a few months Haiti will be forgotten, just like it was before this earthquake hit. We are sending tremendous amount of relief down there and I certainly hope it is working. But more and more reports I get tell me that security is the primary problem. Maybe we could send George down there to protect a distribution truck. Then I'll get on board.

blobfan
01-27-2010, 11:59 AM
I'm still so conflicted about this. While flipping through channels Firday night I caught an impassioned plea from a Haitian transplant to the US. It really pulled at my heart strings. Then on the news this week I see Haitians beating on each other in an attempt to get some of the emergency supplies being delivered. On a human level, I want to help, but I'm still not sure money is going to help.

Screw it. I'll probably write a check to the Red Cross anyway and let them worry about it. It'll still bother me though. I don't think it's going to help the people of Haiti any more than it helped the poor of New Orleans.

bobbiemcgee
01-27-2010, 12:24 PM
No one can be optimistic about the situation. One of the biggest industries used to be making baseballs for .30 a piece. They even lost that to another country. There isn't enough money to feed 3 million people basically forever, much less rebuild.

GuyFawkes38
06-29-2010, 07:59 PM
From a blog I like:


Haiti fact of the day

Haiti's population is expected to jump from the current 9.6 million to 13.4 million in 2050, marking a 40 percent increase, according to data released Monday.

The new demographic figures take into account the many deaths stemming from the Jan. 12 earthquake, which claimed between 230,000 and 300,000 lives and rendered 1.5 million homeless.
(http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2010/06/haiti-fact-of-the-day.html)

Population growth of the 3rd world is a major impediment to a reasonable standard of living. Americans like to protest China's effort to limit population. But when you look at a country like Haiti, it doesn't seem like a bad idea.

smileyy
06-29-2010, 08:55 PM
Are lower birth rates among more developed countries because of the development, or a cause of the development? My understanding is that it's the former.

Strange Brew
06-29-2010, 09:17 PM
Are lower birth rates among more developed countries because of the development, or a cause of the development? My understanding is that it's the former.

I'd agree. Development usually means that less children are needed to work for the needs of the family as goods are produced (by individuals or groups of individuals i.e. corporations) according to the competitive advantages created by said development rather than by the immediate, basic day to day needs of the family (think Amish country).

GuyFawkes38
06-29-2010, 09:50 PM
I'd agree. Development usually means that less children are needed to work for the needs of the family as goods are produced (by individuals or groups of individuals i.e. corporations) according to the competitive advantages created by said development rather than by the immediate, basic day to day needs of the family (think Amish country).

The phenomenon in Haiti is a result of a Malthusian trap. Increases in development cause an increase in the birthrate which, as a result, lower the standards of living. It's a tragic phenomenon which Malthus noticed back in the 19th century. England somehow climbed out of the trap first in the 19th century, followed by other countries which experienced the industrial revolution.

The Malthusian Trap wreaks havoc on attempts to aid 3rd world countries like Haiti. Aid merely increases the population which results in a lower standard of living. Gregory Clark recently wrote a book on the the Malthusian Trap aptly called, "A farewell to Alms".

So what came first, economic development or emergence from the Malthusian Trap? There's no debate about it. Emergence from the Malthusian Trap came first throughout Western Europe and the USA before the onset of the Industrial Revolution.

Strange Brew
06-29-2010, 09:56 PM
The phenomenon in Haiti is a result of a Malthusian trap. Increases in development cause an increase in the birthrate which, as a result, lower the standards of living. It's a tragic phenomenon which Malthus noticed back in the 19th century. England somehow climbed out of the trap first in the 19th century, followed by other countries which experienced the industrial revolution.

The Malthusian Trap wreaks havoc on attempts to aid 3rd world countries like Haiti. Aid merely increases the population which results in a lower standard of living. Gregory Clark recently wrote a book on the the Malthusian Trap aptly called, "A farewell to Alms".


Thanks Guy, I'll hit up Amazon tonight and make the order.

While I'll wait to read the book I can see a landscape in which aid could be the cause of the disruption in economic development under normal or sterile conditions.

GuyFawkes38
06-29-2010, 10:03 PM
Thanks Guy, I'll hit up Amazon tonight and make the order.

It really is a fascinating book:

http://www.amazon.com/Farewell-Alms-Economic-History-Princeton/dp/0691121354


One of the most remarkable claims is that the standard of living didn't improve for even Western Europe until 1800 (in fact, Clark argues that the standard of living was better for hunters and gathers until 1800).

Strange Brew
06-29-2010, 10:07 PM
It really is a fascinating book:

http://www.amazon.com/Farewell-Alms-Economic-History-Princeton/dp/0691121354


One of the most remarkable claims is that the standard of living didn't improve for even Western Europe until 1800 (in fact, Clark argues that the standard of living was better for hunters and gathers until 1800).

Interesting, the 5,000 year leap makes the assertion that liberty and freedom (in the absence of debt) as led to the greatest leap in the human condition over the last 200 years.

GuyFawkes38
06-29-2010, 10:12 PM
Interesting, the 5,000 year leap makes the assertion that liberty and freedom (in the absence of debt) as led to the greatest leap in the human condition over the last 200 years.

I've been meaning to read that.

Clark also points to middle class and national saving as one of the preconditions of the industrial revolution. yeah, it's all sort of depressing. You can't just force such habits which took centuries to develop on the third world.