Its official....See ya Charlie!!!

[gladdenguy]

Brian Kelly hopefully to Notre Dame.

[Titanxman04]

Would rather have Stoops I feel.

[DC Muskie]

He was such a better coach than Ty.

[GoMuskies]

He was such a better coach than Ty.

I think they were relatively equally awful.

This is not nearly as exciting as the news that Steve Kragthorpe's reign of terror at Louisville has ended.

[Masterofreality]

He was such a better coach than Ty.

...but a worse recruiter. His best two years were with Ty's players.

So much for those recruiting service rankings.

[Smails]

He was such a better coach than Ty.

You are certainly correct in that regard...oh wait you're being sarcastic.

[IVANHOE]

This was the email that was sent out to former players just past noon today:

Prior to this release being shared with the public later today, I wanted to reach out to you as a member of the Notre Dame football family. As I know you understand, a decision of this nature is never easily made, and that is especially true in this case given my fondness for Coach Weis. Nevertheless, I am confident that this decision is in the best interest of the University and our football program. As always, please do no hesitate to contact me or Bill Scholl with any questions and /or concerns.

- Jack Swarbrick

[Masterofreality]

Ok, so is ND going to pay $20 million dollars?

I know that they have a bunch of fat cats, but how ridiculous has this become?

And NBC. Why do you continue to support mediocrity?

[D-West & PO-Z]

Ok, so is ND going to pay $20 million dollars?

I know that they have a bunch of fat cats, but how ridiculous has this become?

And NBC. Why do you continue to support mediocrity?

Ratings. People watch.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Just don't take Harbaugh ND!

I think Stoops would be a big mistake at ND. Kelly or Urban would be the best fit.

[PM Thor]

Ok, so is ND going to pay $20 million dollars?

I know that they have a bunch of fat cats, but how ridiculous has this become?

And NBC. Why do you continue to support mediocrity?

I have a buddy who flies up to ND for their home games (they tailgate on the tarmac, pretty badass). The money to buy out Weiss has been sitting there just waiting to be used, and the money to get a new coach is even more than you would say is outrageous. It's sick the amount of money they can throw around up there.

On a side note, I have some empathy for what UC football fans are going to go through for the next couple of weeks. Considering how we went through the same type of thing very nearly every year for the past 3/4ths of a decade, I don't wish that mess on anyone...well....almost everyone.

Maybe UC fans should call up their Xavier buddies and ask how to deal with the uncertainty they will experience for the near future.

I HATE dayton.

[Smails]

Ratings. People watch.

Exactamundo! Love em or hate em...they draw.

Also MOR, if you're really concerned with NBC supporting mediocrity then there is a laundry list of other programming you might want to look into that is way worse than mediocre on that network.

Have you ever sat through Football Night in America? It's terrifying

[DC Muskie]

Kelly or Urban would be the best fit.

Does anyone seriously think Urban Meyer would seriously consider the ND job?


Also MOR, if you're really concerned with NBC supporting mediocrity then there is a laundry list of other programming you might want to look into that is way worse than mediocre on that network.

Have you ever sat through Football Night in America? It's terrifying

They are bringing back Chuck.

They also have shows like Community, Parks and Recreation, The Jay Leno show, and a bunch of other crap shows. So ND really fits right in to what NBC is looking for.

[drudy23]

If they throw enough $$$ at him, of course he'll consider...where have you been?

[PM Thor]

I gotta admit, I really, really like Chuck. Just the idea that NBC considered cancelling it had me in an uproar, an uproar I say!

Ok, now I am having fun antagonizing my UC friends with Weiss' departure. They are squirming with no reasonable answer as to why Kelly should stay...

I HATE dayton.

[Juice]

...but a worse recruiter. His best two years were with Ty's players.

So much for those recruiting service rankings.

His best years were with Ty's guys but Charlie was a 10 times better recruiter than Ty. Ty's best year was his first with Davies' guys then if you want to make that argument.

Ty would not have gotten talent like Claussen, Floyd, Teo to come to ND or Martin for next year. Charlie's problem is that he couldn't coach defense for shit or to get more first class defensive talent to come to ND. His was too offensive minded. Ty Willingham was a lazy piece of shit and it was evident at Washington too.

[coasterville95]

I gotta admit, I really, really like Chuck. Just the idea that NBC considered cancelling it had me in an uproar, an uproar I say!

Ok, now I am having fun antagonizing my UC friends with Weiss' departure. They are squirming with no reasonable answer as to why Kelly should stay...

I HATE dayton.

At least its giving you come payback, I have been dealing with comments made about our basketball team. Some of them as childish as "Now you see what happens when you go into the big boys gym" They have their first AP rating in like 3-4 years and they are waving it around like the kid who got his first toy cowboy gun. Come on Texas Southern!

BTW: I too have been helping plant the seeds of uncertainty in the UC fans heads about Kelly. I mean has Kelly even gotten up and said "I will never leave you, I want to settle down and build a family in Cincinnati and all that" Or is that the kiss of death when a coach says that.

I'm getting the UC fans used to hearing: "And your Notre Dame Football Head Coach: Brian Kelley!" They are calling me hateful for some reason?

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

http://www.irishcentral.com/sport/Brian-Kelly-must-replace-Charlie-Weis-as-Notre-Dame-head-coach-78161162.html

"Brian Kelly Must Replace Charlie Weis As Notre Dame Head Coach"

[XU-PA]

has Kelly even gotten up and said "I will never leave you, I want to settle down and build a family in Cincinnati and all that" Or is that the kiss of death when a coach says that.



Total kiss of death, as bad as the owner expressing his complete confidence in his coach, saying the team doesn't plan on making any staff changes.

[PMI]

I think Kelly is a much better choice than Stoops, who I think is pretty overrated, but in my honest opinion ND is the hardest place to succeed in college football no matter how good you are. Given their own absurdly high standards for their athletes along with the outrageous expectations of the fanbase, I don't see ND ever being satisfied.

[Juice]

http://www.irishroundtable.com/

This is a pretty good site for each updated ND coaching rumor. Some of this stuff is pretty funny, especially the comments on the right by posters.

[XUglow]

Ratings. People watch.

Actually, they don't. ND on NBC had ratings of 3.6 for 2005, 3.0 for 2006, 1.9 for 2008, and they are off "roughly 30%" for 2009 according to an NBC exec. UC vs. UConn drew a 3.6 in comparison. Iowa vs. Ohio State was a 4.7. UF at LSU was a 6.1. The SEC is hot right now. CBS has passed ABC for the Saturday late afternoon game this year, and ESPN's ratings are way up, largely due to their SEC package.

I am guessing that NBC money is probably behind the CW buyout. With a new contract through 2015 signed before last year, NBC needs to get that ship righted in a hurry. I am betting that a new coach will bring viewers back, but the product on the field has to be good for them to stay.

[GoMuskies]

Actually, they don't. ND on NBC had ratings of 3.6 for 2005, 3.0 for 2006, 1.9 for 2008, and they are off "roughly 30%" for 2009 according to an NBC exec. UC vs. UConn drew a 3.6 in comparison. Iowa vs. Ohio State was a 4.7. UF at LSU was a 6.1. The SEC is hot right now. CBS has passed ABC for the Saturday late afternoon game this year, and ESPN's ratings are way up, largely due to their SEC package.

I am guessing that NBC money is probably behind the CW buyout. With a new contract through 2015 signed before last year, NBC needs to get that ship righted in a hurry. I am betting that a new coach will bring viewers back, but the product on the field has to be good for them to stay.

Not surprising. ND on NBC is mostly an afterthought to me, and I'm an avid college football fan. I am usually flipping between the SEC and ABC game (and maybe another game on ESPN or one of the regional Fox networks) and notice the ND score on a bottom line about midway through the second quarter. Otherwise I would forget all about ND on NBC.

[chico]

Just don't take Harbaugh ND!

I think Stoops would be a big mistake at ND. Kelly or Urban would be the best fit.

ND has about as much a chance of getting Meyer as seeing an "I Love Cincinnati" bumper sticker on xeus' car.

[AdamtheFlyer]

Does anyone seriously think Urban Meyer would seriously consider the ND job?



They are bringing back Chuck.

They also have shows like Community, Parks and Recreation, The Jay Leno show, and a bunch of other crap shows. So ND really fits right in to what NBC is looking for.

Chuck and Community are really good, critically acclaimed shows. The problem with NBC is that they don't cater to the AARP folks like CBS, because that demo watches TV nonstop. Grandma's love Leroy Jethro Gibbs and the Mentalist guy.

As for ND and Weis, it had to happen. Big Charlie is a great assistant, terrible head coach. I think they'll flirt with Meyer and Stoops, but in the end will have to settle for Kelly. But all I hear is that Kelly has enough "baggage" to potentially keep top programs from choosing him. What is his baggage?

[xeus]

ND has about as much a chance of getting Meyer as seeing an "I Love Cincinnati" bumper sticker on xeus' car.

I could put it right next to my "Streetcars Are Our Future" bumper sticker.

[DC Muskie]

Chuck and Community are really good, critically acclaimed shows. The problem with NBC is that they don't cater to the AARP folks like CBS, because that demo watches TV nonstop. Grandma's love Leroy Jethro Gibbs and the Mentalist guy.

Well, personally I think those shows suck. Critics also tend to not be members of AARP.

So there you go.

[vee4xu]

Where did I go wrong in life? Never play a sport, become head coach of one of the all-time storied football programs, win with your predecessor's players, get a huge contract extension, your team performs like shit for a few years, you get canned with an $18 million check and then go get a high-six figure job for fun. Man, that story goes on way too many times to different degrees in all sports. Too bad I wasn't smart enough to cash in on this kind of program.

[Cheesehead]

I hope Kelly takes the money and runs. Then I can stop hearing this nonsense about UC being a football school. Plus, Kelly is not likely to succeed at ND. So, it's a win-win situation for me.

[danaandvictory]

Maybe UC fans should call up their Xavier buddies and ask how to deal with the uncertainty they will experience for the near future.



Most UC fans weren't aware the school played football until 2005 or so. They'll just pile onto some other bandwagon. Hey, the Bengals are 8-3!

[danaandvictory]

What is his baggage?

While Kelly was coaching Central Michigan, two of his players beat a man to death outside of a bar. Several other players lied to the police in an attempt to cover it up. Kelly made a statement, later the subject of a scathing Detroit Free Press editorial that (paraphrasing) "[a] number of them were African Americans that had been in that culture of violence." The players involved weren't Kelly's recruits. There was some criticism of Kelly's handling of the scandal, and the CMU program was basically in chaos when he left for UC.

Frankly I think all the talk about Kelly's "baggage" boils down to a couple of things: (1) he's obviously a hothead and a little bit of an asshole, (2) he's in his late 40s and hasn't had a "major" job (leading people to assume there's something wrong with him), and (3) his handling of the CMU murder scandal.

[Masterofreality]

His best years were with Ty's guys but Charlie was a 10 times better recruiter than Ty. Ty's best year was his first with Davies' guys then if you want to make that argument.

Ty would not have gotten talent like Claussen, Floyd, Teo to come to ND or Martin for next year. Charlie's problem is that he couldn't coach defense for shit or to get more first class defensive talent to come to ND. His was too offensive minded. Ty Willingham was a lazy piece of shit and it was evident at Washington too.

Really now. How quickly people forget the Brady Quinn/Smargia(sp) group.

How about this from Michael Bradley:

The nation's worst-kept college football secret was finally revealed Monday afternoon when Notre Dame cut a colossal check to Charlie Weis and sent him on his way, the third straight coach in South Bend to underachieve but by far the most expensive. Weis came to ND on the heels of a successful run with the Patriots, but given the revelations following his departure of the team's cheating and sign-stealing, it makes one wonder whether part of the Weis "genius" was simply knowing what the other guy was going to do, before he did it. Weis wasn't even the school's first (or second, or third, or fourth) choice. He got the gig when Urban Meyer, Bob Stoops and Jon Gruden turned it down and George O'Leary thought he needed to pad his educational resume to get a football coaching job. That's like a physics professor lying about his collegiate athletic experience to land a teaching position.

Weis' "schematic advantage" never materialized, and he only won big with Ty Willingham's players. He paid scant attention to the defensive side of the ball, while trying to load up the offense with playmakers who could make him look more smart. But his biggest sin was in having never led a program at any level. That made him susceptible on the recruiting trail and during the operation of a game. Weis finished 2-8 against Michigan and USC and 1-12 against ranked teams. His teams lacked talent, and he lacked the ability to manage big games. His decision to throw late in the game against Michigan this year led directly to the Wolverines' comeback win and was just one of many gaffes. Weis wasn't ready to lead a program, and inserting him into one of the toughest jobs in college football was a mistake by Notre Dame.

There will be plenty of people who are happy to see Weis go, especially among South Bend supporters, and he should have been cut loose after last season. Had ND given Ty Willingham more than three years, it probably would have axed Weis following the '08 campaign. Instead, it felt guilty about cutting Willingham's tenure so short and went too long with Weis. Whoever is next in line had better have experience running a program, recruiting players who can handle a rigorous academic load and living up to expectations that seem unreasonable given the landscape of college football and Notre Dame's desire to be a world-class academic institution. Weis couldn't do any of that and is out of work. He's rich, but he's unemployed. — Michael Bradley

[Juice]

Really now. How quickly people forget the Brady Quinn/Smargia(sp) group.

How about this from Michael Bradley:

The nation's worst-kept college football secret was finally revealed Monday afternoon when Notre Dame cut a colossal check to Charlie Weis and sent him on his way, the third straight coach in South Bend to underachieve but by far the most expensive. Weis came to ND on the heels of a successful run with the Patriots, but given the revelations following his departure of the team's cheating and sign-stealing, it makes one wonder whether part of the Weis "genius" was simply knowing what the other guy was going to do, before he did it. Weis wasn't even the school's first (or second, or third, or fourth) choice. He got the gig when Urban Meyer, Bob Stoops and Jon Gruden turned it down and George O'Leary thought he needed to pad his educational resume to get a football coaching job. That's like a physics professor lying about his collegiate athletic experience to land a teaching position.

Weis' "schematic advantage" never materialized, and he only won big with Ty Willingham's players. He paid scant attention to the defensive side of the ball, while trying to load up the offense with playmakers who could make him look more smart. But his biggest sin was in having never led a program at any level. That made him susceptible on the recruiting trail and during the operation of a game. Weis finished 2-8 against Michigan and USC and 1-12 against ranked teams. His teams lacked talent, and he lacked the ability to manage big games. His decision to throw late in the game against Michigan this year led directly to the Wolverines' comeback win and was just one of many gaffes. Weis wasn't ready to lead a program, and inserting him into one of the toughest jobs in college football was a mistake by Notre Dame.

There will be plenty of people who are happy to see Weis go, especially among South Bend supporters, and he should have been cut loose after last season. Had ND given Ty Willingham more than three years, it probably would have axed Weis following the '08 campaign. Instead, it felt guilty about cutting Willingham's tenure so short and went too long with Weis. Whoever is next in line had better have experience running a program, recruiting players who can handle a rigorous academic load and living up to expectations that seem unreasonable given the landscape of college football and Notre Dame's desire to be a world-class academic institution. Weis couldn't do any of that and is out of work. He's rich, but he's unemployed. — Michael Bradley

I am not arguing that he won with Ty's guys because he did and those were his best years. But Claussen was a much better recruit than Quinn. Brady was the #10 QB according to Rivals, while Clausen was the #1 recruit overall no matter what position. Jeff Samardzija was a 3 star recruit (#43 WR) while Michael Floyd was a 5 star recruit (#6 WR, #27 overall). The talent level increased mightily under Weis. He was bringing in top 10 or just outside the top 10 ranked classes. In 2004 Ty had the 32nd ranked class.

Weis had to go and was not getting the job done but he left ND in a better than Ty did and most ND fans will agree with that.

[Masterofreality]

I am not arguing that he won with Ty's guys because he did and those were his best years. But Claussen was a much better recruit than Quinn. Brady was the #10 QB according to Rivals, while Clausen was the #1 recruit overall no matter what position. Jeff Samardzija was a 3 star recruit (#43 WR) while Michael Floyd was a 5 star recruit (#6 WR, #27 overall). The talent level increased mightily under Weis. He was bringing in top 10 or just outside the top 10 ranked classes. In 2004 Ty had the 32nd ranked class.


And we all know that those recruiting rankings are always 1000% accurate!!

Juice, I really don't care that much- especially about Not-re Dame. I'm just fascinated by the fact that they are willing to spend 1/2 the cost of Cintas Center to get rid of a coach, then are willing to commit the other half to hire a new one. What they are paying Fat Charlie to leave is 10% of the Great Wonders campaign. Maybe a bit sports unbalanced in South Bend? Ridiculous.

[D-West & PO-Z]

And we all know that those recruiting rankings are always 1000% accurate!!

Juice, I really don't care that much- especially about Not-re Dame. I'm just fascinated by the fact that they are willing to spend 1/2 the cost of Cintas Center to get rid of a coach, then are willing to commit the other half to hire a new one. What they are paying Fat Charlie to leave is 10% of the Great Wonders campaign. Maybe a bit sports unbalanced in South Bend? Ridiculous.

Thats funny because you are usually at the forefront of all the Notre Dame discussions.

[pizza delivery]

This is a great day for me, maybe Notre Dame can be good again starting next year. All this BS about it being too academically difficult...not a chance. Weis couldn't manage a game, PERIOD. It was awful to watch. Look what BK has done with whatever ranked classes he has had! It's the coach.

[XU05and07]

Just to let everyone know...I called ND this afternoon and told them that I am not interested in their coaching vacancy.

[AdamtheFlyer]

While Kelly was coaching Central Michigan, two of his players beat a man to death outside of a bar. Several other players lied to the police in an attempt to cover it up. Kelly made a statement, later the subject of a scathing Detroit Free Press editorial that (paraphrasing) "[a] number of them were African Americans that had been in that culture of violence." The players involved weren't Kelly's recruits. There was some criticism of Kelly's handling of the scandal, and the CMU program was basically in chaos when he left for UC.

Frankly I think all the talk about Kelly's "baggage" boils down to a couple of things: (1) he's obviously a hothead and a little bit of an asshole, (2) he's in his late 40s and hasn't had a "major" job (leading people to assume there's something wrong with him), and (3) his handling of the CMU murder scandal.

Perception of a murder cover up, that's some heavy baggage, no matter how much truth there is behind it. The kind no one cares about when you get hired in Cincy, but in South Bend, Ann Arbor, or any other big football town it's all over the national and local media. Interesting to see if and how that story plays when Kelly is first rumored to be the guy at a bigger school.

[Masterofreality]

Thats funny because you are usually at the forefront of all the Notre Dame discussions.

Now that's funny. Forefront? Check how many posts I have all college football season on any subject regarding the sport. Not......too........many, unless you think that 4 posts in 17 pages of the Brian Kelly thread is "at the forefront." One of those posts was complementing Brew, and nothing else.

I care as much about Not-re Dame as I do Borecat football, or Kentucky football, or Oh-ho-ho State football. Not much. It is fun to see the Irish apologists get themselves all twisted up in knots, however.

[BandAid]

Now that's funny. Forefront? Check how many posts I have all college football season on any subject regarding the sport. Not......too........many, unless you think that 4 posts in 17 pages of the Brian Kelly thread is "at the forefront." One of those posts was complementing Brew, and nothing else.

I care as much about Not-re Dame as I do Borecat football, or Kentucky football, or Oh-ho-ho State football. Not much. It is fun to see the Irish apologists get themselves all twisted up in knots, however.

I realize when you say "Not-re Dame" you are referring to the school. But in a different context the aforementioned spelling and pronunciation could be seen as offensive towards Christians (and especially Catholics) since you are in actuality skewering a title reserved for the Virgin Mary...In fact some may respond, "That's so gay," to your misspelling...

[danaandvictory]

Perception of a murder cover up, that's some heavy baggage, no matter how much truth there is behind it. The kind no one cares about when you get hired in Cincy, but in South Bend, Ann Arbor, or any other big football town it's all over the national and local media. Interesting to see if and how that story plays when Kelly is first rumored to be the guy at a bigger school.

It's already been a topic of conversation on ND websites, according to some friends who are alums, and I know for sure it was discussed when Kelly was mooted as a candidate for the UM job two years ago. I certainly would expect it to bubble up to the national opinion-makers if Kelly emerges as the chief candidate in South Bend.

[BENWAR]

I realize when you say "Not-re Dame" you are referring to the school. But in a different context the aforementioned spelling and pronunciation could be seen as offensive towards Christians (and especially Catholics) since you are in actuality skewering a title reserved for the Virgin Mary...In fact some may respond, "That's so gay," to your misspelling...

I think we all understand that MOR is not showing any disrespect to the Virgin Mary.

I would say "that's so gay" for you even to comment on it. Grow up!!

[Tardy Turtle]

17 pages of the Brian Kelly thread

you're doing it wrong

[BandAid]

I think we all understand that MOR is not showing any disrespect to the Virgin Mary.

I would say "that's so gay" for you even to comment on it. Grow up!!

Either I'm missing your joke, or you are missing mine.;)

[DC Muskie]

His best years were with Ty's guys but Charlie was a 10 times better recruiter than Ty. Ty's best year was his first with Davies' guys then if you want to make that argument.

Ty would not have gotten talent like Claussen, Floyd, Teo to come to ND or Martin for next year. Charlie's problem is that he couldn't coach defense for shit or to get more first class defensive talent to come to ND. His was too offensive minded. Ty Willingham was a lazy piece of shit and it was evident at Washington too.

I'm not sure what to make of this argument.

Ty was not a good coach. He had a nice run at Stanford, and that is something Weis will never have, a positive head coaching stint.

Ty might not have brought in the talent on the offensive side, but he never lost to Navy twice. Just imagine however if Ty wasn't lazy, because if he ended up with a better record than Weis and Weis was trying harder than Ty, than Charlie really sucked as a coach. It makes no difference how a recruiter you are, you still have to beat Navy.

[Juice]

I'm not sure what to make of this argument.

Ty was not a good coach. He had a nice run at Stanford, and that is something Weis will never have, a positive head coaching stint.

Ty might not have brought in the talent on the offensive side, but he never lost to Navy twice. Just imagine however if Ty wasn't lazy, because if he ended up with a better record than Weis and Weis was trying harder than Ty, than Charlie really sucked as a coach. It makes no difference how a recruiter you are, you still have to beat Navy.

Ty also had one of the worst head coaching stints ever at Washington. I think people at Washington hate him more than ND people. Charlie also made it to 2 BCS bowls while Ty got to one Gator Bowl.

Not beating Navy is inexcusable.

[Smails]

Ty was not a good coach. He had a nice run at Stanford, and that is something Weis will never have, a positive head coaching stint.

I'm not really sure what your point is? His 'nice run' at Stanford culminated in a losing record in conference play over his tenure. Willingham's 'positive stint' at Stanford is errily similar to Weis' failed record at ND.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Don't know if anyone saw this. ESPN article entitled "Call Waiting" with Brian Kelly on front page of ESPN.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/columns/story?columnist=forde_pat&id=4701416

[DC Muskie]

Ty also had one of the worst head coaching stints ever at Washington. I think people at Washington hate him more than ND people. Charlie also made it to 2 BCS bowls while Ty got to one Gator Bowl.

Not beating Navy is inexcusable.

What's the criteria for ND to get to a BCS game? Both games they lost badly by the way.

Maybe Charlie should have kept Ty as a recruiter or something, because his recruits beat USC this season.

Charlie also oversaw the worst three year stint ever at ND.

I'm not sure you can really argue Charlie was a better coach than Ty.

[DC Muskie]

I'm not really sure what your point is? His 'nice run' at Stanford culminated in a losing record in conference play over his tenure. Willingham's 'positive stint' at Stanford is errily similar to Weis' failed record at ND.

True, he and Weis have each won a bowl game.

Ty however never lost to Navy. Let alone twice.

At home.

With top ten recruiting classes.

[Smails]

DC Muskie is one of the all time great ND haters...hats off to him.

On a side note DC, it's probably not prudent for an OSU fan to bring up BCS beatdowns as a means for saying the losing team should not have been there in the first place.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/1912858,CST-SPT-neil01.article

"Kelly is the right fit in South Bend"

[DC Muskie]

On a side note DC, it's probably not prudent for an OSU fan to bring up BCS beatdowns as a means for saying the losing team should not have been there in the first place.

You realize OSU is 4-3 in BCS games, right? One of those wins was against ND, so maybe we should just say they are 3-3.

The Buckeyes might have gotten two beatdowns in a national championship games, but they did win a national championship in the last decade and one more thing...

They beat Navy.

At home.

With top ten recruiting classes.

[Juice]

What's the criteria for ND to get to a BCS game? Both games they lost badly by the way.

The same criteria Ty was operating under.

[Smails]

You realize OSU is 4-3 in BCS games, right? One of those wins was against ND, so maybe we should just say they are 3-3.


No, you should actually say that OSU is 3-0 since getting your pants dropped in a bowl game obviously means you shouldn't be there in the first place. Hell, using that logic has any Big 10 team deserved a BCS bid in the last 5 years?

One more thing.

Notre Dame beat Purdue

at Purdue.

[kyxu]

I don't remember the Fiesta Bowl between ND and OSU being a beatdown. It was a 7-point game with 2 minutes left before Pittman hit like a 65-yard TD run on third-and-long to seal it. I think people remember it as a blowout because Holmes and Ginn had a field day in the Irish secondary. Wow, was that impressive.

And though it's like comparing two turds, Weis was a better coach than Willingham. Ty had one winning season in his first three years, while Charlie had two, including two BCS bowl appearances (worth a lot of $$$) to Ty's zero. Charlie's third year was a stinker, but everyone expected it to be. In Ty's second year, coming off a 10-win season, ND started the year ranked and finished 5-7.

Both coaches were pretty sorry, but I'd give a slight nod to Weis.

[PMI]

DC you got nothing on me as a ND hater. Bring it.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Now that's funny. Forefront? Check how many posts I have all college football season on any subject regarding the sport. Not......too........many, unless you think that 4 posts in 17 pages of the Brian Kelly thread is "at the forefront." One of those posts was complementing Brew, and nothing else.

I care as much about Not-re Dame as I do Borecat football, or Kentucky football, or Oh-ho-ho State football. Not much. It is fun to see the Irish apologists get themselves all twisted up in knots, however.

Well you have 5 posts in this thread alone, and you have at least one post in every thread involving Notre Dame this year. I would say you care much more than you would like to admit. At least enough to call them Not-re Dame every time you write about them.

[XUglow]

Notre Dame just first Weis because he wasn't any good. What is up with the love-fest protecting his honor? He sucked. Who cares if he sucked more or less than Ty? He will be a bad footnote in the history of ND football... nothing more... nothing less.

Charlie Weis, Mike Leach, and Paul Johnson sitting around discussing recruiting defensive players.... crickets...

[Juice]

Notre Dame just first Weis because he wasn't any good. What is up with the love-fest protecting his honor? He sucked. Who cares if he sucked more or less than Ty? He will be a bad footnote in the history of ND football... nothing more... nothing less.

Charlie Weis, Mike Leach, and Paul Johnson sitting around discussing recruiting defensive players.... crickets...

I have been defending Weis in this thread simply compared to Ty Willingham. Charlie had to go because he was over confident and kind of an ass. He could not coach the defensive side of the ball nor get the talent to play on D. That being said, he left ND in a much better situation as Ty. He did experience some lows worse than Ty but he also had more highs.

[DC Muskie]

No, you should actually say that OSU is 3-0 since getting your pants dropped in a bowl game obviously means you shouldn't be there in the first place. Hell, using that logic has any Big 10 team deserved a BCS bid in the last 5 years?

One more thing.

Notre Dame beat Purdue

at Purdue.

I'm not sure what your argument is. OSU has dropped its last three BCS games, in ND fashion one could argue. But if we are going to claim that no Big ten team deserves a berth, then what do we say about the ACC? Or Independants? Independants are 0-3. Does Alabama deserve a berth, they are 0-2? What about Oklahoma, they are 2-5? 2-5!

OSU might play in the crap Big Ten, but they own their crap.

They might lose to Purdue on the road, but then turn around and win another Big Ten Conference Title.


I have been defending Weis in this thread simply compared to Ty Willingham. Charlie had to go because he was over confident and kind of an ass. He could not coach the defensive side of the ball nor get the talent to play on D. That being said, he left ND in a much better situation as Ty. He did experience some lows worse than Ty but he also had more highs.

Charlie Weis was fired for simply not winning enough games. It really doesn't have anything to do with being overconfident and being an ass. Maybe that helped him not win games, but winning is all that matters.

The only argument about Charlie leaving ND in a better state than Ty is that Charlie finally beat Boston College.

But then again Ty never lost to Navy.

Twice.

At home.

With top ten recruiting classes.

Never.

[waggy]

Essentially, DC is not a creationist.

[DC Muskie]

Wait, I forgot to mention something.

Charlie lost to Navy.

Twice.

At Home.

With Top Ten recruiting classes.

I can't beleive I forgot that one. I've been thinking of that all day.

[Smails]

Essentially, DC is not a creationist.


Gotta love the guy who carries the torch for the coaching genius of Tyrone Willingham.

He was wronged I tell you! Wronged!

[Juice]

Gotta love the guy who carries the torch for the coaching genius of Tyrone Willingham.

He was wronged I tell you! Wronged!

DC just defends Ty because he was a black asshole who got unfairly fired even though never lost to Navy.

I don't care if the firing made ND look racist because it got that moron out as head coach.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Wait, I forgot to mention something.

Charlie lost to Navy.

Twice.

At Home.

With Top Ten recruiting classes.

I can't beleive I forgot that one. I've been thinking of that all day.

That phrase has officially been in my head.

All day.

At work.

Definitely can't disagree with you on all points though. I feel like Denzel Washington or Frank Sinatra in the movie "Manchurian Candidate." Those words and how its phrased may trigger something.

Being a Stanford fan, I am hoping Kelly leaves.

And soon.

[DC Muskie]

Gotta love the guy who carries the torch for the coaching genius of Tyrone Willingham.

He was wronged I tell you! Wronged!

He got three years. Charlie got an extension for almost beating USC. I think that was wrong.

Ty for sure wasn't a genius. But man, he at least figured out how to beat Navy.

At Home.

With less than top ten recruiting classes.


DC just defends Ty because he was a black asshole who got unfairly fired even though never lost to Navy.

I don't care if the firing made ND look racist because it got that moron out as head coach.

I don't think ND is racists. I think they are morons. They fired one, hired a fatter, whiter asshole who lost to Navy.

Twice.

At home.

In front of Touchdown Jesus.

Like I said, at least Charlie beat Boston College. Something Ty never could do in three years he was the coach there. Maybe if could have lost to USC by a closer margin he might have had a chance...then again, maybe he would have lost to Navy.

At Home.

Wait for it.

Twice.

[Kahns Krazy]

This is a weird thread.

On a basketball board.

In December.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

This is a weird thread.

On a basketball board.

In December.

I just gave.

DC Muskie and Kahns Krazy.

Rep Points.

EDIT: I am not allowed

To give rep points.

To Kahns Krazy

[XUglow]

DC Haiku -

With top ten talent
2 home losses to Navy
Charlie Weis is gone

[DC Muskie]

I just came across this list.

Coaches at Notre Dame since 1964 who lost to Navy

Twice.

At Home


Charles Weis


Okay, I didn't come across this list.

I just made it up.

Just now.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

http://thenastyboys.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/charlieweis.jpg

Charlie Weis

In his younger days

Rockin the stashe

And the Unibrow

As a 70's porn star

[waggy]

Notre Dame really needs a federally appointed, taxpayer funded, czar.

[Smails]

I just came across this list.

Coaches at Notre Dame since 1964 who lost to Navy

Twice.

At Home


Charles Weis


Okay, I didn't come across this list.

I just made it up.

Just now.

You know what's going to happen now don't you? You reap what you sow DC...

Here he is ladies and gentlemen the head coach of YOUR Cleveland Browns...Charrrrllliieee Weis!

[DC Muskie]

I really enjoyed reading how Notre Dame coaches called out the Navy football team after they lost to them. For the second time. In three years. Right in front of Touchdown Jesus. I really really enjoyed that.


I also really enjoyed how ESPN kept me updated on how many NFL teams were interested in a coach who lost to Navy.

Twice.

At Home.

And then called out the Navy players and coaches.

Please let me know where this coaching genius will end up. Please let it be the Browns, so I can cheer for him. It will be easy for me.

Navy isn't on the schedule.

[DC Muskie]

You know what's going to happen now don't you? You reap what you sow DC...

Here he is ladies and gentlemen the head coach of YOUR Cleveland Browns...Charrrrllliieee Weis!

I know right? It will be just my luck.

[Masterofreality]

Well you have 5 posts in this thread alone, and you have at least one post in every thread involving Notre Dame this year. I would say you care much more than you would like to admit. At least enough to call them Not-re Dame every time you write about them.

Yawn!!!!

Here's my sixth post, so sue me. Every one has been nothing but incisive, depth of thought commentary.:p

[mlcspinner]

His best years were with Ty's guys but Charlie was a 10 times better recruiter than Ty. Ty's best year was his first with Davies' guys then if you want to make that argument.

Ty would not have gotten talent like Claussen, Floyd, Teo to come to ND or Martin for next year. Charlie's problem is that he couldn't coach defense for shit or to get more first class defensive talent to come to ND. His was too offensive minded. Ty Willingham was a lazy piece of shit and it was evident at Washington too.

reps

anyone that thinks CW wasn't a good recruiter is not using all their brain cells. He lose is job because of the defense don't forget ND's biggest lose was by 7 pts this year, they just could stop anybody

[D-West & PO-Z]

reps

anyone that thinks CW wasn't a good recruiter is not using all their brain cells. He lose is job because of the defense don't forget ND's biggest lose was by 7 pts this year, they just could stop anybody

Yep, I said the same thing. I had people telling me though that because he was at Notre Dame we didnt actually know that he was a good recruiter.

[DC Muskie]

reps

anyone that thinks CW wasn't a good recruiter is not using all their brain cells.

And by my calculations, since Weis was a better recruiters, he was in fact a worse coach than Ty. Not sure how you argue otherwise.


He lose is job because of the defense don't forget ND's biggest lose was by 7 pts this year, they just could stop anybody

This is how Weis will be remembered...barely losing. Ty must have gotten blown out of the water, had he lost a little closer, he might have gotten two extra years.

[Juice]

And by my calculations, since Weis was a better recruiters, he was in fact a worse coach than Ty. Not sure how you argue otherwise.

Or how about the fact that recruiting is a large part of the equation in college coaching.

[DC Muskie]

Or how about the fact that recruiting is a large part of the equation in college coaching.

What exactly is your point? John Cooper could recruit, but he never won 5 Big ten titles. He was what 2-2billion and 1 against Michigan?

Boise St. TCU and Cincinnati didn't have a top 25 recruting classes according to rivals since 2006.

FSU and South Carolina did. Some years, both those programs had top 10 top 15 recruting classes.

Norte Dame class rankings since 2006:

#8
#8
#2
#21

Three of those classes have lost to Navy. Navy, which doesn't send one person to the NFL. Navy, undersized and unrecruited by coaches who know not to recruit them to win.

Charlie took those classes and won 8 games more then he lost. And he lost 14 times to unranked teams. He only beat one ranked team. One.

Yeah, it helps your coaching if you actually know how to coach. Reading about how Charlie couldn't coach the defense reminds me of the Steve Spurrier era out here, when he used to stroll over to defense to say hi.

[boozehound]

I wonder what Charlie Weis would have said if someone had told him when he took the job that 5 years later people would be arguing whether he or Willingham was the worse coach.

[DC Muskie]

I wonder what Charlie Weis would have said if someone had told him when he took the job that 5 years later people would be arguing whether he or Willingham was the worse coach.

Just to be clear I think Ty is a bad coach.

I used to think he was much better then he was, until he threw in that stinker 0-12 program at UW. I mean UW was a bigger mess than ND at the time and Ty somehow managed to make it worse. The new coach seems to have them on the right track.

However, Ty took over a program at ND that was at best, mediorce, kept it mediorce, and than someone else took it over and continued to keep it mediorce. I'm not sure how you can argue that because Weis was a better recruiter, he was a better coach.

He never beat USC.
He beat Boston College once.
He lost to Navy.
Twice.
At Home.

Ty had less talent I am told, which Weis was able to take to two BCS bowl games and once Weis had his talent in...

He never beat USC
He beat Boston College once
And he lost to...
Navy.
Twice.
At Home.

[Juice]

Just to be clear I think Ty is a bad coach.

I used to think he was much better then he was, until he threw in that stinker 0-12 program at UW. I mean UW was a bigger mess than ND at the time and Ty somehow managed to make it worse. The new coach seems to have them on the right track.

However, Ty took over a program at ND that was at best, mediorce, kept it mediorce, and than someone else took it over and continued to keep it mediorce. I'm not sure how you can argue that because Weis was a better recruiter, he was a better coach.

He never beat USC.
He beat Boston College once.
He lost to Navy.
Twice.
At Home.

Ty had less talent I am told, which Weis was able to take to two BCS bowl games and once Weis had his talent in...

He never beat USC
He beat Boston College once
And he lost to...
Navy.
Twice.
At Home.

Ty Willingham is now coaching in the UFL or was as a positional coach.

Charlie will be a coordinator in the NFL.

That is how I know that Charlie Weis is a better coach.

[DC Muskie]

Ty Willingham is now coaching in the UFL or was as a positional coach.

Charlie will be a coordinator in the NFL.

That is how I know that Charlie Weis is a better coach.

Good point. And if I may add...

Charlie Weis will be the best NFL Offensive Coordinator who lost twice to Navy at home as a head coach.

While Ty, will be the best positional coach having never lost to Navy as a head coach.

I think it's best for Charlie to go back to NFL. I really enjoyed how he leaked out that information, makes me like him even more.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Good point. And if I may add...

Charlie Weis will be the best NFL Offensive Coordinator who lost twice to Navy at home as a head coach.

While Ty, will be the best positional coach having never lost to Navy as a head coach.

I think it's best for Charlie to go back to NFL. I really enjoyed how he leaked out that information, makes me like him even more.

haha DC is on a roll!!!!!!!!

[GoMuskies]

This argument is about as meaningful as DePaul fans arguing Jerry Wainright vs. Joey Meyer.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

This argument is about as meaningful as DePaul fans arguing Jerry Wainright vs. Joey Meyer.


Steven Seagal or Arnold Schwartzeneagger

CarrotTop or Bob Saget

KFed or Heather Mills

Genghis Khan or Kublai Khan

Jared the Subway guy(Who's fat now again by the way) or the Verizon Guy

[XUglow]

anyone that thinks CW wasn't a good recruiter is not using all their brain cells.

That would be me, and I am in good company. Google is your friend. Try using it. If there are references that ND has recruited well on the defensive side of the ball, I cannot find them.

We agree that the problem is largely on defense. ND's defense wasn't fast or powerful. To me, that starts with recruiting. Good defensive recruits don't mean that you will have a good defense, but it certainly helps to build on a solid platform. ND was probably coached poorly on defense as well, but I am pretty sure that the next coach will see an immediate need to upgrade talent.

I have seen Bama play 3 times this year, and I have seen UF play 2 times this year, and the size and speed of those teams on the defensive side of the ball is particularly amazing. Saban and Meyer recruit both side of the ball well, and the difference shows.

[kyxu]

That would be me, and I am in good company. Google is your friend. Try using it. If there are references that ND has recruited well on the defensive side of the ball, I cannot find them.

We agree that the problem is largely on defense. ND's defense wasn't fast or powerful. To me, that starts with recruiting. Good defensive recruits don't mean that you will have a good defense, but it certainly helps to build on a solid platform. ND was probably coached poorly on defense as well, but I am pretty sure that the next coach will see an immediate need to upgrade talent.

I have seen Bama play 3 times this year, and I have seen UF play 2 times this year, and the size and speed of those teams on the defensive side of the ball is particularly amazing. Saban and Meyer recruit both side of the ball well, and the difference shows.

Without a doubt Notre Dame's defensive recruiting hasn't been great, but their defensive problems stem more from coaching than recruiting. Their inability to recruit top-shelf defensive talent (aside from Manti Te'o) helps explain why they aren't elite, but it doesn't explain why they suck.

Size and speed weren't why they lost to Syracuse, Navy and UConn. That was coaching. Rick Minter, Corwin Brown and Jon Tenuta have been lackluster at coaching the defense. If you watch ND, their technique at shedding blocks and just tackling is reminiscent of pee wee football. That's not a talent issue.

[MuskieMark]

http://deadspin.com/5417236/brian-kelly-will-coach-the-fighting-irish-according-to-writing-irish if deadspin says it, it must be true...

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Bearcat nation will implode if he decides to coach ND in their bowl game

[XUglow]

Bearcat nation will implode if he decides to coach ND in their bowl game

It won't be a very big implosion. It's not like there are millions and millions of UC football fans out there waiting for word on BK's decision.