Johan to the Mets!!!!!!!!!

[The Artist]

BOOM
shakalaka shakalaka shakalaka shaka
BOOM


I'm sure ATL Muskie would love to join me in celebrating.

[ATL Muskie]

That's a big trade, no doubt. I question why he stopped throwing his slider though. We'll see.

[The Artist]

Definitely worth considering. However, they didn't give up much, and even if he just throws fastball/changeup, that will probably be enough.

I wonder what the extension will look like. I'll say either 6 yrs/150 mil or 7 yrs/170 mil (they may get a slight discount for an extra year...maybe a club option)

[ATL Muskie]

Minimum 6 yrs/150. That's a lot of jack.

[The Artist]

word. It'll be super back-loaded. Look at who the Mets get off the books after this year (estimated salary this year in parenthesis).

Delgado (22)
Pedro (19)
Wagner (10)
Alou (8)
El Duque (8)

Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. Right now, it appears that not only will they get Johan now, but they'll have plenty of money next year for what should be a better free agent crop.

[cinskyline]

What's scary about this trade is that Santana put up great numbers in a hitters league (AL). I think he'll absolutely dominate the NL, where he won't have to deal with the DH.

Great deal for the Mets.

[X-band '01]

Great hitter's league, yes, but the Metrodome has never been a hitter-friendly park.

That being said, that's a good get for the Mets. I'm glad he's not going to be part of the AL East arms race this go-round.

[Muskie]

What's the Mets rotation look like now? Is Pedro still pitching?

[X-band '01]

#1 - Johan Santana
#2 - Pedro Martinez
#3 - John Maine (Charlotte grad)
#4 and #5 - ???

[xuirish]

The twins really must want to get rid of him, because for what they are getting in return, well let's say is less than desirable, especially compared to the caliber of talent they would of gotten from the Red Sox or yankees. but either way hopefully I'll get to see him pitch in Great American this year.

[OX09]

You wanna know what was a really good trade?



ATL's avatar...I'm a big fan of the new one

[The Artist]

#1 - Johan Santana
#2 - Pedro Martinez
#3 - John Maine (Charlotte grad)
#4 and #5 - ???

#4 Oliver Perez
#5 either El Duque, or more likely Mike Pelfrey with El Duque in the pen.

Edit: They may still also sign Livan Hernandez.

[Drew's Crew]

I can't believe they got Johan for the players they did.

The Mets approached the O's with the same guys for Bedard, and the O's passed without much of a thought. The guys really don't have much of ridiculously high ceiling one would expect for Johan.

Good for the Mets. And the rich get richer......

[D-West & PO-Z]

WOOHOOO!!!! Championship(In the voice of the guy trying to say Houshmanzedah's name). Gotta love this trade. Mets are a legit WS contender now. This makes the whole rotation stronger and the bullpen also putting one of the starters in the pen. I think El Duqe will start out as a starter though. The offense is still good as ever. Big year for the Mets. Giants maybe win the Superbowl, the Mets possibly win the WS. My dad was talking to me about how this could be '86 all over. Mets and Giants back on top!!!!

[XUglow]

DWPZ, your Mets won the championship last year if I remember your pronouncements correctly. Right? You were so right about how that team was unstoppable, and now they add Santana. Wow.

[XU 87]

Yet another example of a large market team moving ahead due to the fact that they have a large tv and radio contract, as a result of being in a large market. What a game.

[The Artist]

Yet another example of a large market team moving ahead due to the fact that they have a large tv and radio contract, as a result of being in a large market. What a game.

What did you want them to do? Their two best players are 23 years old - making next to nothing, and they're able to sign Santana (I assume) because they're losing 70 mil in payroll at the end of the year (when the extension would kick in).

But of course, winning with "home-grown" talent is so much better than highly paid talent right?

[XU 87]

I'm not criticizing the Mets for trading for him. My point is that the Met are able to trade for him in the first place because they have the funds to do so. They have the funds to do so because they are in a large market and therefore have a better tv and radio contract which brings in more cash than smaller market teams get.

The Mets are not getting better because of having a good front office or better scouting department. They are getting better because they are lucky enough to be in large market.

As for getting better through developing players vs. obtaining free agents, one is done because of a good front office. The other is done because you're in a large city. It takes no skill to be in a large market.

In short, the Twins were smart enough to trade for this guy when he was in the minor leagues. Unfortunately for the Twins, they are in a small market and can't afford to keep him. On the other hand, the Mets now get him due soley to the fact that the Mets play in New York. And therein lies the problem with baseball.

[D-West & PO-Z]

DWPZ, your Mets won the championship last year if I remember your pronouncements correctly. Right? You were so right about how that team was unstoppable, and now they add Santana. Wow.

I know right. They are going to win every year for at least the next 5 years. Im so happy!

[D-West & PO-Z]

I'm not criticizing the Mets for trading for him. My point is that the Met are able to trade for him in the first place because they have the funds to do so. They have the funds to do so because they are in a large market and therefore have a better tv and radio contract which brings in more cash than smaller market teams get.

The Mets are not getting better because of having a good front office or better scouting department. They are getting better because they are lucky enough to be in large market.

As for getting better through developing players vs. obtaining free agents, one is done because of a good front office. The other is done because you're in a large city. It takes no skill to be in a large market.

In short, the Twins were smart enough to trade for this guy when he was in the minor leagues. Unfortunately for the Twins, they are in a small market and can't afford to keep him. On the other hand, the Mets now get him due soley to the fact that the Mets play in New York. And therein lies the problem with baseball.

1.) Who cares. Reds fans crying about the small market is so overdone and annoying.

2.) It is completely false that it takes no skill to be in a front office in a large market. Ask Steve Phillips how thats going. He traded for some big time players all past their prime, Mo Vaughn, Roberto Alomar Jr, and others. You have to know who to go after, who to let go, who will fit in, who wont. Omar Minaya traded for John Maine, who he got a as a throw in. Pretty nice. Minaya has done a great job as GM of the Mets, not an easy job especially given the pressure.

3.) The Mets two best players are young superstars who will be around for a long time. Both homegrown.

4.) You have to have a good front office, and scouting dept., to draft and develop players good enough to be traded for Johan Santana. You cant just draft crap and hope to sign guys in free agency.

5.) 6 small market teams have won the World Series in the last 13 years! 4 in the last 7! So stop crying about small markets just because the Reds are cheap and arent committed to winning.

[The Artist]

1.) Who cares. Reds fans crying about the small market is so overdone and annoying.

2.) It is completely false that it takes no skill to be in a front office in a large market. Ask Steve Phillips how thats going. He traded for some big time players all past their prime, Mo Vaughn, Roberto Alomar Jr, and others. You have to know who to go after, who to let go, who will fit in, who wont. Omar Minaya traded for John Maine, who he got a as a throw in. Pretty nice. Minaya has done a great job as GM of the Mets, not an easy job especially given the pressure.

3.) The Mets two best players are young superstars who will be around for a long time. Both homegrown.

4.) You have to have a good front office, and scouting dept., to draft and develop players good enough to be traded for Johan Santana. You cant just draft crap and hope to sign guys in free agency.

5.) 6 small market teams have won the World Series in the last 13 years! 4 in the last 7! So stop crying about small markets just because the Reds are cheap and arent committed to winning.


Beat me to it...

[XU 87]

It takes no skill to have the cash to trade for Santana. The Mets were able to make this trade for one reason and one reason only, they have the cash to sign him.

Ask Oakland how they feel about this small market situation. They develop players and then have to trade them when they can no longer pay them.

Since both of you are apparently Mets fans, I don't expect you to think that the current system in baseball sucks. You guys benefit from it. You're top two pitchers were obtained due to your status as a large market team. In today's game, if you can't win consistently in New York, you're incompetent.

Do you guys really think that baseball's current situation is fair? Is it fair that, usually, only a handfull of teams, by virtue of where they are located, can go after certain players?

P.S. I was just looking at the Mets roster. Beltran, I believe was acquired by free agency. Delgado was acquired via free agency or the Marlins traded him becasue they couldn't pay him. That Mets front office is pretty savvy to have enough money to find those guys. And how did Wagner get to NY? Was that free agency? It sure takes a lot of skill to identify some of the best players in baseball and throw large sums of money at them.

[The Artist]

It takes no skill to have the cash to trade for Santana. The Mets were able to make this trade for one reason and one reason only, they have the cash to sign him.

Ask Oakland how they feel about this small market situation. They develop players and then have to trade them when they can no longer pay them.

Since both of you are apparently Mets fans, I don't expect you to think that the current system in baseball sucks. You guys benefit from it. You're top two pitchers were obtained due to your status as a large market team. In today's game, if you can't win consistently in New York, you're incompetent.

Do you guys really think that baseball's current situation is fair? Is it fair that, usually, only a handfull of teams, by virtue of where they are located, can go after certain players?

P.S. I was just looking at the Mets roster. Beltran, I believe was acquired by free agency. Delgado was acquired via free agency or the Marlins traded him becasue they couldn't pay him. That Mets front office is pretty savvy to have enough money to find those guys. And how did Wagner get to NY? Was that free agency? It sure takes a lot of skill to identify some of the best players in baseball and throw large sums of money at them.

2 years ago the Tigers were a small market team in the same situation as everyone else. They had two successful seasons, and are now a borderline large market team.

Win some games, get some fans, make some money, spend some money.

And you're right, I'm going to stop being a Mets fan because they have 3 guys they acquired through free agency. I'll go to the Reds. Oh wait...Griffey, Gonzalez, Cordero...nevermind. I'll go to the Royals, oh wait, Gil Meche, Jose Guillen. Nevermind.

Looks like Tampa is the only team left. GO DEVIL RAYS!!!

[XUglow]

What is wrong with the NFL model where all teams have a chance and parity has built it into a mega-sport? When teams are bad in the NFL, it is because they are run by the less-skilled... not because they are resource limited.

[XU 87]

The Reds traded for Griffey. And they didn't get him because the Reds had the most money to spend. And are you comparing Alex Gonzalez to the likes of Beltran, Wagner, Martinez or Delgado? Do you agree that the primary, if only, reason they are Mets is because the Mets had the cash to buy them.?

And I never said don't root for the Mets. What I did say was that the current situation in baseballl is unfair. Some teams (large market teams) can go out and buy players. Other teams (small market teams) cannot. What's worse is that the small market teams lose their players because they cannot afford to pay what a large market team can pay, which is why the Mets have Santana.

[D-West & PO-Z]

The Reds traded for Griffey. And they didn't get him because the Reds had the most money to spend. And are you comparing Alex Gonzalez to the likes of Beltran, Wagner, Martinez or Delgado? Do you agree that the primary, if only, reason they are Mets is because the Mets had the cash to buy them.?

And I never said don't root for the Mets. What I did say was that the current situation in baseballl is unfair. Some teams (large market teams) can go out and buy players. Other teams (small market teams) cannot. What's worse is that the small market teams lose their players because they cannot afford to pay what a large market team can pay, which is why the Mets have Santana.

You are completely ignoring the fact that 4 of the last 7 WS Champs are from "small markets". There have been what 6 different champs in the last 7 years?? Its not like the smae teams are winning every year. Dont use the Marlins as a refernece again, they have won 2 WS championships in the last what 12 years? They dumped their payroll after winning those, because they achieved their goal and are cheap, they dont WANT to pay the players who want raises after winning it all.

[XU 87]

The fact that certain teams have been able to win a World Series despite the system does not equate that the system is fair. Santana is one of the best pitchers in baseball. Because of the economics, there are only a few teams that could bid for his services. And the only reason they can pay him enough is those teams happen to be in large markets. Is that fair?

[D-West & PO-Z]

The fact that certain teams have been able to win a World Series despite the system does not equate that the system is fair. Santana is one of the best pitchers in baseball. Because of the economics, there are only a few teams that could bid for his services. And the only reason they can pay him enough is those teams happen to be in large markets. Is that fair?

Its not gonna change anytime soon, so why bitch about it? Go out and do what the Cardinals, Marlins, Angels, and Diamondbacks have done. Put together the best team with the resources you have and win a championship. Have the Reds done that the last 12 or so years? No. Because in that time period they have shown they have not been committed to winning. Maybe they are changing now, but who knows. They only thing Reds fans should be bitchin about is their ownership and management.

[XUglow]

Its not gonna change anytime soon, so why bitch about it? Go out and do what the Cardinals, Marlins, Angels, and Diamondbacks have done. Put together the best team with the resources you have and win a championship. Have the Reds done that the last 12 or so years? No. Because in that time period they have shown they have not been committed to winning. Maybe they are changing now, but who knows. They only thing Reds fans should be bitchin about is their ownership and management.

It is kind of funny that a Met fan would be telling Reds fans what their team should be doing to win anything. For the zillions of dollars tossed at players, what exactly does NY have on that mantle?

[The Artist]

1) The Mets don't even have the highest payroll in the NL. All of this "zillions of dollars" to buy players is very overstated. They overpaid for Pedro and Beltran (at the time overpaid, currently they're probably at market) because the franchise needed a jolt and needed to put butts in the seats. Between 1990 and 2004(ish) the Mets were no different than any other team. Minaya came in and convinced ownership to open their pockets. Since then, they have added Wagner and Delgado. Frankly, I didn't care for either addition.

So, to summarize, the Mets signed a closer that they may not have "needed", and traded for a first baseman to protect Beltran.

2) In terms of small market teams, there's a difference between not being able to sign high profile free agents, and not being willing to sign high profile free agents. Ready Moneyball and then we'll have a conversation about the As. Billy Beane is ROLLING in the money, he's just trying to win as much as he can while spending as little as he can. It's a business to him and he's running it very successfully.

You're argument is invalid because plenty of teams COULD sign high profile free agents, they just are not WILLING to.

Ownership has placed the Met budget at under 100 million bucks for next year. They'll have no trouble doing it and it is a very reasonable line.

The Mets lineup:

Reyes - system
Castillo - traded for
Beltran - signed as FA
Wright - system
Delgado - traded for (practically signed as FA)
Alou - signed as FA - but he is not paid much and there was no "bidding"
Church - traded for
Schneider/Castro - system/traded for

Rotation:

Johan - traded for - at least partially due to Pedro's departure in one year
Pedro - signed as FA
Maine - traded for
Perez - traded for
El Duque/Pelfrey - traded for/system

Bullpen:
Wagner - signed as FA
The Rest - nobody notable, other than Heillman who will probably take over closer duties after this year, and he is from the system.

So, what problem do you have with the Mets, outside of Wagner and Delgado? The Mets had a hole...they had no Zambrano, Webb, Sheets - type stopper. They filled it. Period.

[D-West & PO-Z]

It is kind of funny that a Met fan would be telling Reds fans what their team should be doing to win anything. For the zillions of dollars tossed at players, what exactly does NY have on that mantle?

Hell of a lot more than the Reds have done in the past 15 years. World Series appearnce in 2000, NL Championship appearance 2 years ago. Getting to playoffs is what matters, then after that anything can happen, any team can win, its about who is hot, not how much money you spent or what market you are in. The Mets will win again soon, and we all know the ownership and GM are doing whatever it takes to win. Its a good feeling. I pity the Reds fans who dont get to have the same feeling. I'm sure in the next 15 years or so the Reds will come through and make a playoff appearance. Gotta get lucky some time right?

[D-West & PO-Z]

1) The Mets don't even have the highest payroll in the NL. All of this "zillions of dollars" to buy players is very overstated. They overpaid for Pedro and Beltran (at the time overpaid, currently they're probably at market) because the franchise needed a jolt and needed to put butts in the seats. Between 1990 and 2004(ish) the Mets were no different than any other team. Minaya came in and convinced ownership to open their pockets. Since then, they have added Wagner and Delgado. Frankly, I didn't care for either addition.

So, to summarize, the Mets signed a closer that they may not have "needed", and traded for a first baseman to protect Beltran.

2) In terms of small market teams, there's a difference between not being able to sign high profile free agents, and not being willing to sign high profile free agents. Ready Moneyball and then we'll have a conversation about the As. Billy Beane is ROLLING in the money, he's just trying to win as much as he can while spending as little as he can. It's a business to him and he's running it very successfully.

You're argument is invalid because plenty of teams COULD sign high profile free agents, they just are not WILLING to.

Ownership has placed the Met budget at under 100 million bucks for next year. They'll have no trouble doing it and it is a very reasonable line.

The Mets lineup:

Reyes - system
Castillo - traded for
Beltran - signed as FA
Wright - system
Delgado - traded for (practically signed as FA)
Alou - signed as FA - but he is not paid much and there was no "bidding"
Church - traded for
Schneider/Castro - system/traded for

Rotation:

Johan - traded for - at least partially due to Pedro's departure in one year
Pedro - signed as FA
Maine - traded for
Perez - traded for
El Duque/Pelfrey - traded for/system

Bullpen:
Wagner - signed as FA
The Rest - nobody notable, other than Heillman who will probably take over closer duties after this year, and he is from the system.

So, what problem do you have with the Mets, outside of Wagner and Delgado? The Mets had a hole...they had no Zambrano, Webb, Sheets - type stopper. They filled it. Period.

Well said. Wish I could have said it the same way, but I couldnt find all the statistics and didnt have the time b/c of class.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I also wanted to reiterate the difference b/t not being able to sign and not wanting to sign the big FA's. Every baseball owner is absolutely swimming in money, if they choose not to use it balme it on them not because you team is in a "small market".

[D-West & PO-Z]

Not to mention most the owners in these small markets probably take that money they get from renenue sharing and pocket it for themselves.

[xuirish]

i enjoy how this thread went from "Johan to the Mets" to "Let's bash each others market and team" there is nothing we can do to change it, just root for who you root for and have fun with it.

[The Artist]

You forgot all the exclamation points.

[XUglow]

Artist - I went to the baseball almanac to look up salary figures. Try it. For NL teams... 2007, the Mets were #1 in payroll. 2006, the Mets were #1 in payroll. 2005, the Mets were #1 in payroll, 2004, the Mets were #1 in payroll. 2003, the Mets were #1 in payroll, 2002, the Mets were #1 in payroll...

I stand by what I posted.

[Billy]

I have four words for Mr. Santana:

Fuk u do me.

[The Artist]

Artist - I went to the baseball almanac to look up salary figures. Try it. For NL teams... 2007, the Mets were #1 in payroll. 2006, the Mets were #1 in payroll. 2005, the Mets were #1 in payroll, 2004, the Mets were #1 in payroll. 2003, the Mets were #1 in payroll, 2002, the Mets were #1 in payroll...

I stand by what I posted.

So do I.

http://www.king5.com/sports/stories/NW_012308SMB_mariners_payroll_SW.4ff10c49.html

posted exactly 6 days ago.

Thank you for your time. I will no longer be doing this petty work.

[Orlando Muskie]

As The Artist already knows, I'm a huge Phillies fan and although I would have preferred not to face Santana 4-5 times a year (even those Pat "the met killer" Burrell will obviously own him from the minute he dons the Met uniform), but the Hamels-Santana and Myers-Pedro match-ups don't exactly terrify me. Hamels just turned 24 and we have not seen his best yet and Pedro isn't what he once was. However, the back end of our rotation is a little worrisome, but I have faith that the Phil's will find some guys that can hold teams to 5 runs so that our NL leading offense can win games for us. Forget the WS talk, let's see if the Mets can can even win the division this year. I'm going with the Phillies let by a Chase Utley MVP performance.

I too wish baseball had a more even playing field. I mean, it's not like the Phillies don't have a 100 million dollar payroll, but I think competition is good for the game, and with the current state of a lot of teams, they have relatively no chance to be competitive (cough, PIRATES, cough).

As for the Marlin's not being willing to pay players, I really think it has a lot to do with attendance problems. Even when they were good and had star players, they didn't bring in much money in. Florida, and certainly South Florida has a ton of people who already have baseball allegiances as most baseball fans raise their kids to be fans of their teams as well (I sure as hell will), so you have a ton of Yankees, Met's, Red Sox, etc. fan's who for the most part will only go to a game if their teams are in town playing the Fish.

[XU 87]

The Mets had the third highest payroll in MLB last year at $116 million. That will be much higher with the addition of Santana. Incidentally, the Mets' 5 highest paid players were obtained either free agency or from teams that could no longer afford the player. Like I said, it doesn't take much of a front offfice to go buy good players.

As for the Reds, the organization was lousy under Lindner. I think it's much better now. But until the $13 albatross (Griffey) retires or leaves, I don't think the Reds can win.

I will repeat one thing. Small market teams can win in MLB. But it is much tougher for them as opposed to the large market teams. And it's VERY difficult for small market teams to win regularly- just ask the Twins and the A's. And some small market organizations appear to have no chance of winning, for whatever reason (see KC, Tampa, Pittsburgh).

But I have one question for our Mets fans. Are you contending that large market teams with higher revenues do not have a competitive advantage over the smaller market teams?

[XUglow]

From the Baseball Almanac for 2007. In order of finish and payroll. Does your source have a source?

At any rate, both sources agree that the Mets spent $115M for 2nd in the east and missing the playoffs. Correct?

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/yearly/yr2007n.shtml

East
Philadelphia Phillies $89,428,213
New York Mets $115,231,663
Atlanta Braves $87,290,833
Washington Nationals $37,347,500
Florida Marlins $30,507,000

Central
Chicago Cubs $99,670,332
Milwaukee Brewers $70,986,500
St. Louis Cardinals $90,286,823
Houston Astros $87,759,000
Cincinnati Reds $68,904,980
Pittsburgh Pirates $38,537,833

West
Arizona Diamondbacks $52,067,546
Colorado Rockies $54,424,000
San Diego Padres $58,110,567
Los Angeles Dodgers $108,454,524
San Francisco Giants $90,219,056

[X-band '01]

As for the Marlin's not being willing to pay players, I really think it has a lot to do with attendance problems. Even when they were good and had star players, they didn't bring in much money in. Florida, and certainly South Florida has a ton of people who already have baseball allegiances as most baseball fans raise their kids to be fans of their teams as well (I sure as hell will), so you have a ton of Yankees, Met's, Red Sox, etc. fan's who for the most part will only go to a game if their teams are in town playing the Fish.

You could just as easily substitute Florida for Arizona if you want to compare fan demographics, transplanted fans, and their respective allegiances.

Sadly, the 1994 strike and the 1997 fire sale killed whatever credibility the Marlins' front office had with their fanbase. The D-Backs never had a fire sale to alienate their fans, and they've been competitive and savvy as far as their farm system and timely free agent signings (namely parlaying Curt Schilling and Randy Johnson to a 2001 World Series).

[XU 87]

The year the Marlins won their first WS, the team lost approximately $30 million. When you lose $30 million, you have to get rid of players. Instead of people ripping the former owner, Wayne Hurzeig (sp?) who owns Blockbuster, the Floridians should have thanked him for bringing a championship and losing a boatload of money in doing so.

And I seem to recall that Arizona also lost a ton of money the year they won the Series.

[ATL Muskie]

Wow, what has happened to the Mets? One more and I bust out the broom. Went to the game last night; man, that was fun. How much longer will Willie Randolph last? And now he's playing the race card. Looks like the pressure is getting to him.

[Muskie]

He (Randolph) lost me when he said the media was too hard on Isaih Thomas. Let's see... ran the Knicks into the ground on the Court, sexually harassed an employee, and made some of the worst personnel decisions in the NBA. Clearly no media criticism earned there.

Willie ought to worry about getting his million dollar pitching staff to throw strikes.

[GoMuskies]

If the Florida Marlins, with a combined payroll less than Santana's salary, can finish ahead of the Mets, it will be an amazing story.

Only 117 games to go....

[The Artist]

Willie should have been fired after last year so that they could go after Torre.

It's a long season, but I'm getting sick of seeing the same thing game in and game out.

And to be fair, Muskie, nobody currently in the rotation is making a lot of money besides Johan. I think Perez is 2nd at about 6.5 mil. John Maine, Mike Pelfrey, and Claudio Vargas all make next to nothing.

While Pedro is getting paid a lot not to pitch, that contract was as much of a marketing move at the time as anything else. I don't think too many people thought he'd actually pitch effectively for all 4 years of the deal (however, I did expect closer to 3 solid years, not 1.5)

It'll be nice to have all of the wasted money gone at the end of the year (Delgado, Wagner, Pedro, Alou). That's about 50 mil in payroll that's gone, with the only offensive holes to be at 1st base and left field. Of course next year's rotation is anybody's guess.

The contract they gave Castillo still drives me nuts.

[XUglow]

Artist, are you saying the money on Wagner is wasted? If a 0.00 ERA isn't good enough, I would say that Mets fans are a bit too demanding.

[ATL Muskie]

Losing Pedro will be a bonus, financially and otherwise, but I'd pay Wagner. He looks solid. I could do without Delgado too.

[The Artist]

Artist, are you saying the money on Wagner is wasted? If a 0.00 ERA isn't good enough, I would say that Mets fans are a bit too demanding.

Anything over 5-8 mil a year for a closer is wasted. A team can get slightly worse results for significantly less money.

Edit: And no, I dont' trust Wagner.

[Xman95]

Anything over 5-8 mil a year for a closer is wasted. A team can get slightly worse results for significantly less money.

That depends on the closer. If I absolutely need the game, I would much rather know that I can call on the $12m arm of Mariano Rivera instead of a lesser-priced guy like Joe Borowski, C.J. Wilson or even someone like "I was the world leader in blown saves the last three years" Francisco Cordero. The key is that, if you are shelling out big jack for a closer, he better be lights out.

That being said, there are few who are really great and, therefore, many probably shouldn't make beyond the $5-8m mark, as you said.

[Xman95]

He (Randolph) lost me when he said the media was too hard on Isaih Thomas. Let's see... ran the Knicks into the ground on the Court, sexually harassed an employee, and made some of the worst personnel decisions in the NBA. Clearly no media criticism earned there.

Willie ought to worry about getting his million dollar pitching staff to throw strikes.

As a Yankees fan, I can tell you that Willie Randolph is awful. Granted, I didn't get to follow his moves as a manager, but I saw enough of his indecision as a 3rd Base coach to get the impression he has no business running a team. Wendel Kim used to be considered by many to be the worst coach on the corner, but I don't think many paid attention to what "I could never be a true Yankee" Randolph did. Maybe it's because the teams were usually good enough to overcome/overshadow how bad he was. But it wasn't uncommon for him to be waiving a guy home, then instruct him to slide into third...and sometimes then start waving him home again. It was almost as if the bang-bang, heated situations calling for quick decisions really rattled him. Obviously, that's not the kind of guy you want running the show, especially in NY. That's why I kept my fingers crossed that he would be out of town before the time came for Torre to move on. Luckily it worked out that way.

[XU 87]

The great thing about the Mets (and Yankees) is that because of their lucrative tv and radio contracts, they can just go out there and buy a few more players this summer.

[The Artist]

That depends on the closer. If I absolutely need the game, I would much rather know that I can call on the $12m arm of Mariano Rivera instead of a lesser-priced guy like Joe Borowski, C.J. Wilson or even someone like "I was the world leader in blown saves the last three years" Francisco Cordero. The key is that, if you are shelling out big jack for a closer, he better be lights out.

That being said, there are few who are really great and, therefore, many probably shouldn't make beyond the $5-8m mark, as you said.

I agree that Rivera in his prime was worth about $20 mil/year, if not more.

[The Artist]

The great thing about the Mets (and Yankees) is that because of their lucrative tv and radio contracts, they can just go out there and buy a few more players this summer.

I'm glad you let us know you feel this way as you've never brought it up in a discussion before.

On a related note, how do people feel about the Kansas State series?

[XUglow]

The 4-game Braves sweep is now in the books. Even Santana couldn't stop the slide, as Hudson wins in a good pitching duel.

At least the Mets started the swoon early this year. It will give them a chance to right the ship and get back into the race again. The Marlins look better than expected. Philly is good. The Braves don't have a lot of holes in the line-up if they stay healthy. It is going to be an interesting year in the NL East. It is hard to imagine anyone running away or anyone getting too far behind.

[Xman95]

I'm glad you let us know you feel this way as you've never brought it up in a discussion before.

On a related note, how do people feel about the Kansas State series?

And what are everyone's thoughts on UD and Bob Huggins?

[The Artist]

Billy Wagner anyone?