Issue 9: Streetcar Amendment

[XU05and07]

Want to throw this question out there...Is it more likely that Cincinnatians are going to wake up and be surprised what they just voted down or is there that much support for the Streetcars in Cincinnati?

I asked this because even in the comments on the enquirer website and the interviews sounded like voters were confused. One comment was that they voted "no" for the streetcar amendment because they think that it is a waste of money. But actually, a "no" vote means that the public will not have have the chance to vote on an mass transit in the future and gives the administration full power in those decisions.

Sounds like someone did not read the amendment and thought they were voting on the streetcar directly. So I ask, are people going to be surprised or happy with their vote?

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Want to throw this question out there...Is it more likely that Cincinnatians are going to wake up and be surprised what they just voted down or is there that much support for the Streetcars in Cincinnati?

I asked this because even in the comments on the enquirer website and the interviews sounded like voters were confused. One comment was that they voted "no" for the streetcar amendment because they think that it is a waste of money. But actually, a "no" vote means that the public will not have have the chance to vote on an mass transit in the future and gives the administration full power in those decisions.

Sounds like someone did not read the amendment and thought they were voting on the streetcar directly. So I ask, are people going to be surprised or happy with their vote?

There's no doubt there was some confusion on both sides. But the intiative was written like that on purpose by Finney and NAACP. This whole issue has been shady. First collecting votes claiming they are against just the streetcar but really its all passenger rail, then all the lies (Luken claiming the streetcar system woudl be 3-4 billion dollars, Mark Miller's PR, etc), and finally Smitherman claiming the wording that their guys wrote is deceptive.

Now that the casino amendment has passed, it makes sense to put that on the streetcar route. Cincinnati has the potential to come together very nicely in the future (The Banks, Fountain Square Redevopment, Broadway Commons redevlopment, etc)

[sirthought]

One comment was that they voted "no" for the streetcar amendment because they think that it is a waste of money. But actually, a "no" vote means that the public will not have have the chance to vote on an mass transit in the future and gives the administration full power in those decisions.

It would have been a waste of money. Those elections and their campaigns cost too much money. And think of all the expensive "studies" it would take to prove one side or the other. It's not that research and expertise shouldn't be sought, but once it is, then lets leave the people to do their job.

If you have a strong enough opinion about street cars or other rail issues then contact every elected official you have access to. That's how the system works best.

[Muskie1000]

It would have been a waste of money. Those elections and their campaigns cost too much money. And think of all the expensive "studies" it would take to prove one side or the other. It's not that research and expertise shouldn't be sought, but once it is, then lets leave the people to do their job.

If you have a strong enough opinion about street cars or other rail issues then contact every elected official you have access to. That's how the system works best.

In some ways - I agree. We vote officials in to handle issues like this - do they have to go to the voters to decide everything now. I totally get why issue 3 was on the ballot, you are putting an admendment to the ohio constitution in. I totally get why we vote on anything that would require more taxation money. But we put in elected officials (whether we like them or not) to make those hard decisions. We don't like what they do, we don't vote for them - its as simple as that. So if it had passed, what, do we get to have an election for where a trolley/streetcar would go? what color? Where does it stop...?

[jdm2000]

I think it's a combination of several things.

One, you have to take the Enquirer comments with a grain of salt. Many of those folks (maybe even most) are not from the city proper.

Two, I think that in the city itself there is probably a general sense of being in favor of mass transit. The city voted in favor of light rail when it was on the ballot county-wide in 2002; it got killed in the suburbs. So, while I am sure that there are people who question whether the streetcar is the right plan, I think that there may well be more people who favor the streetcar than you might think otherwise based on comments with friends, neighbors, and newspaper folks.

Three, the amendment itself was confusing, and some people may have voted incorrectly based on the language. But I think more than anything the No on Nine people got out the message about how broad this particular amendment was. As written, it certainly seemed like it could affect far more than just the streetcar. Wouldn't that be a kick in the teeth if Ohio gets stimulus money* for rail from Cleveland to Cincy and then the city couldn't kick in some amount for a station, etc., because of the amendment? I have talked to many people who do not favor the streetcar, but who do want some other form of transit (light rail, bring back the incline, whatever). I'm guessing that the broad wording of the amendment scared folks who otherwise dislike the streetcar idea away from voting for it.

In the end, I am a bit of the mind of we elected them, let them figure out if they want to do this. If they do and it sucks, vote them out of office.


* Not trying to pass judgment on the stimulus package--just a fact of life that Ohio has applied for stimulus money for that rail plan.

[Kahns Krazy]

I think there's a good chance that the casino operator coughs up a good chunk of money for the streetcar project if it ever moves forward. The amendment was a bad idea. I'm sure plenty of people were confused about the issue.

I'm also pretty sure that if they had crafted the language to be specifically against the streetcar, without jeopardizing light rail or the 3C high speed rail project, it would have passed.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

I think there's a good chance that the casino operator coughs up a good chunk of money for the streetcar project if it ever moves forward. The amendment was a bad idea. I'm sure plenty of people were confused about the issue.

I'm also pretty sure that if they had crafted the language to be specifically against the streetcar, without jeopardizing light rail or the 3C high speed rail project, it would have passed.

You beat me to it on the casino issue...

Anyways here is a map of the voting of issue 9
http://dunes.cincinnati.com/election2009/map/issue9/

If the streetcar wants to get going, it needs to get the funding ASAP. They already have the planning, the route, the research, and all the preliminary stuff done. They have roughly 60 million of the 128 million for the first phase from the feds. No doubt private investors were waiting to see the result of this election before investing. Kahn is right the casino will probably invest some as well

Smitherman is already planning another ballot initiative for 2010 which he states will be only against the streetcar(Interesting since that's what he said issue 9 was).
Also Smitherman is planning a mayor recall ballot initiative.

These next 7-8 months are crucial

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

And hell has frozen over. Cunningham just said "I think i'm in favor of the streetcar now because of the casino."

[_LH]

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20110410/NEWS0108/104110317/

Things are looking dim for this ill advised idea.

[Muskie]

Still discussing streetcars in Cincy eh? I cant' wait for the day where I can take a street car from my parked car in the Kroger Lot to the front doors of Cintas

[_LH]

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20110412/NEWS0108/304120038

Even after this serious blow, Mallory is still pushing this ill advised project.

[Kahns Krazy]

I've conceded the streetcar. I was in favor of the project.

We have real momentum going downtown, and I really believe that the streetcar would have solidified that momentum and given downtown a real chance at critical mass.

It's interesting that the politics behind the defunding of the streetcar are actually a perfect example of why I believed the streetcar made sense. The capital investment in the streetcar was substantial, but the operating costs were relatively minimal. Once it was built, it would be highly unlikely that the next politician or group of politicians in would have scrapped the project.

Basically, it would have created a permanent zone for focused investment in our city, instead of the zones that blow around in the wind every time someone new gets a vote.

The naysayers win. No rail to Cleveland, no urban circulator. Ohio and Cincinnati continue to fall farther behind competing cities. Population decline of 10% in the last 10 years.

What was once a foregone conclusion for me - that I would live the rest of my life in this city - is now negotiable. I don't want to be holding onto a house when the city goes completely bankrupt.

[_LH]

I've conceded the streetcar. I was in favor of the project.

We have real momentum going downtown, and I really believe that the streetcar would have solidified that momentum and given downtown a real chance at critical mass.

It's interesting that the politics behind the defunding of the streetcar are actually a perfect example of why I believed the streetcar made sense. The capital investment in the streetcar was substantial, but the operating costs were relatively minimal. Once it was built, it would be highly unlikely that the next politician or group of politicians in would have scrapped the project.

Basically, it would have created a permanent zone for focused investment in our city, instead of the zones that blow around in the wind every time someone new gets a vote.

The naysayers win. No rail to Cleveland, no urban circulator. Ohio and Cincinnati continue to fall farther behind competing cities. Population decline of 10% in the last 10 years.

What was once a foregone conclusion for me - that I would live the rest of my life in this city - is now negotiable. I don't want to be holding onto a house when the city goes completely bankrupt.

With the real momentum taking place downtown there was really no need for a five mile loop of a streetcar. It would have done nothing different than the current Metro bus system or your own god given two feet. It was an ill advised idea that would have drained more money they it would have ever been credited with creating and I'm glad it is dead.

[GuyFawkes38]

It's frustrating. Cities like Houston, Dallas, and Charlotte all have streetcars and are moving forward to extend their coverage. I just read that Oklahoma City is moving forward with a streetcar. Those aren't liberal cities. But they recognize the importance of serious public investment.

In contrast, it feels like most people in Cincy just want to keep the status quo.

[pizza delivery]

The uptown, 1a, phase of the project is likely delayed, but the downtown circulator will still be built, which leaves some hope for property values increasing and investment taking effect along those routes. That is, if the loons at COAST don't win that "no progress in Cincinnati until 2020!" vote in the fall. Construction will begin before then, I think. The uptown link was important though, because getting young educated people downtown is important, I believe. They just look good, you know what I'm saying?

[pizza delivery]

With the real momentum taking place downtown there was really no need for a five mile loop of a streetcar. It would have done nothing different than the current Metro bus system or your own god given two feet. It was an ill advised idea that would have drained more money they it would have ever been credited with creating and I'm glad it is dead.


It's not dead, actually.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

It's frustrating. Cities like Houston, Dallas, and Charlotte all have streetcars and are moving forward to extend their coverage. I just read that Oklahoma City is moving forward with a streetcar. Those aren't liberal cities. But they recognize the importance of serious public investment.

In contrast, it feels like most people in Cincy just want to keep the status quo.

Cities like Little Rock and Kenosha built them too and have seen great success. What's done is done.

Ya I guess the plan is now a scaled back version that goes to the hill in OTR. They have enough money for that. Still, missing out on Clifton is a huge loss. Don't know if I like that.

The spokesman for Christ Hospital said that they would build a $350 million dollar expansion if the streetcar was built. I found that interesting.

[pizza delivery]

Incidentally, for all the people that call it a choo choo or trolley, I realized after seeing Tampa's (I think?), which looked old on purpose, perhaps deep inside the opponents really want a choo choo and would love it if it looked old. I'd be okay with that trite expression. I'd also be okay with some actual old clunkers that are renovated from the 1930's or something. That would be cool.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Incidentally, for all the people that call it a choo choo or trolley, I realized after seeing Tampa's (I think?), which looked old on purpose, perhaps deep inside the opponents really want a choo choo and would love it if it looked old. I'd be okay with that trite expression. I'd also be okay with some actual old clunkers that are renovated from the 1930's or something. That would be cool.

Over $1 billion dollars worth of development in Tampa within 3 blocks of the line since its inception. Granted there is an operating cost, but I'd say the economic development is well worth it. The Tampa one is more of a gimmick too.

[pizza delivery]

Cities like Little Rock and Kenosha built them too and have seen great success. What's done is done.

Ya I guess the plan is now a scaled back version that goes to the hill in OTR. They have enough money for that. Still, missing out on Clifton is a huge loss. Don't know if I like that.

The spokesman for Christ Hospital said that they would build a $350 million dollar expansion if the streetcar was built. I found that interesting.

Maybe XU can sneak in through the side hatch and steal the route from UC. :logo:

GABP>Mt. Adams> Eden Park>Dana & Victory>'TAS>Dana's - REPEAT

[pizza delivery]

Over $1 billion dollars worth of development in Tampa within 3 blocks of the line since its inception. Granted there is an operating cost, but I'd say the economic development is well worth it. The Tampa one is more of a gimmick too.

That's what I'm saying, I think the conservative types in Tampa and Cincinnati would agree that a painted trolley is much more soothing to their worried affect, which is occupied by the changing modern world. I think people prefer calling it a trolley and wish it were one. Embrace the opposition!

[_LH]

It's not dead, actually.

Almost dead and this latest set back is the first of three nails to completely kill it if city council won't admit defeat after losing $51 million in funds.

Also, comparing Cincinnati to Texas or Florida towns is simply ignorant in so many ways,

[pizza delivery]

In the end, if it gets built, if there is 0 zip zilch benefit and no one rides it even once while businesses don't grow, but still decline like they are, Cincinnati will waste 100 mil, most of it federal "going somewhere, anywhere" money, and have 3 million a year to pay until they shut it down in 2 years because no one has rode it yet.

On the other hand, if it gets built and only does half of what they say it should under their own conservative estimates (based on comparisons to other similar cities - not Portland), the city will break even, even if it has to pay 2 million a year for 10 years to operate it. What a huge financial risk!

Sounds more dangerous to not build the "trolley".

[_LH]

In the end, if it gets built, if there is 0 zip zilch benefit and no one rides it even once while businesses don't grow, but still decline like they are, Cincinnati will waste 100 mil, most of it federal "going somewhere, anywhere" money, and have 3 million a year to pay until they shut it down in 2 years because no one has rode it yet.

On the other hand, if it gets built and only does half of what they say it should under their own conservative estimates (based on comparisons to other similar cities - not Portland), the city will break even, even if it has to pay 2 million a year for 10 years to operate it. What a huge financial risk!

Sounds more dangerous to not build the "trolley".

Yeah, it always makes sense to ask for $200 million to build something 2/3rds of the city don't want when the city is already in $50 million in the hole based on pie in the sky "coulds and maybes".

[GuyFawkes38]

Also, comparing Cincinnati to Texas or Florida towns is simply ignorant in so many ways,

I just noted those cities because they lean a little right, like Cincy.

But there are many rust belt cities that have made major investments in their public transportation infrastructure, like Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, St. louis, etc....

Cincy is just falling behind, as usual.

[_LH]

I just noted those cities because they lean a little right, like Cincy.

But there are many rust belt cities that have made major investments in their transportation infrastructure, like Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, St. louis, etc....

Cincy is just falling behind, as usual.

Pittsburgh has a streetcar? Cleveland?

[GuyFawkes38]

Pittsburgh has a streetcar? Cleveland?

Light rail.

[_LH]

Light rail.

So your answer is no then.

Light rail would make sense here but is way too costly. A five mile looped streetcar that is serviced by buses is just a waste.

[GuyFawkes38]

So you answer is no then.

Light rail would make sense here but is way too costly. A five mile looped streetcar that is serviced by buses is just a waste.

come on now. I said "major investments in their transportation infrastructure". Supporters of the streetcar would be thrilled with a light rail. But that was shot down.

Cities throughout the country with different political leanings and economic situations are embracing light rail and street car.

Couldn't they possibly be on to something?

[_LH]

come on now. I said "major investments in their transportation infrastructure". Supporters of the streetcar would be thrilled with a light rail. But that was shot down.

Cities throughout the country with different political leanings and economic situations are embracing light rail and street car.

But Cincinnati is doing nothing.

Go downtown. Cincinnati is doing plenty. We don't need a streetcar. We could use a light rail system but stop comparing apples to oranges.

[Kahns Krazy]

Yeah, it always makes sense to ask for $200 million to build something 2/3rds of the city don't want when the city is already in $50 million in the hole based on pie in the sky "coulds and maybes".

In case anyone was wondering which specific post put _LH in the red, it was this one.

[PM Thor]

With the state removing their funding, this pretty much makes no one happy. On one hand, the people who want to see the streetcar fully funded are obviously upset, but the people who want to see it completely dead probably won't see that either.

What's going to happen now? I think that it's going to be a very scaled back "first phase A" type of project, that will only cover from OTR down to the Banks, at most. This will make no one happy and won't achieve any type of major goal in terms of jobs or influx of taxbase. (I'm basing this on the idea that without state funding, any streetcar system is on shaky ground, not exactly a granite foundation for businesses to build upon) The streetcar will depend on future support from a future "streetcar friendly" state administration for funding for expansion. That's a very dangerous supposition to base such a big project upon, and I am fully aware I'm making a supposition at the same time.

If the supporters cannot guarantee that the streetcar will be getting state (or federal) funding for future expansion, why continue to go down this road, even if we can build a scaled back version without state support? And no, a scaled back streetcar system will not create a big enough influx of money for the city to expand the streetcar on its own. We will need help, no doubt. Can anyone say that there is going to be state money to help to support this system? Federal? I honestly don't think so. Hell, I hope my entire rant is wrong.

I HATE dayton.

[GuyFawkes38]

thor, I think a scaled back version will be a success. I know that sounds crazy, but young professionals and developers love rail.

Just anecdotally, the more I read about streetcar projects around the country, the better I feel about them. No locale seems to regret building them. To the contrary, cities that have them plan on expanding service.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

thor, I think a scaled back version will be a success. I know that sounds crazy, but young professionals and developers love rail.

Just anecdotally, the more I read about streetcar projects around the country, the better I feel about them. No locale seems to regret building them. To the contrary, cities that have them plan on expanding service.

It's very unusual because it seems like it wouldn't make sense especially in cities like Little Rock and Kenosha. I originally wasn't for the idea either. It seemed like a gimmick and a waste of money. But when the casino backed it I started to second guess myself. There does need to be more private contributions though imo. It sounds like dozens of small businesses in OTR (taste of belgium, new christian moerlein, etc) are solidly behind it, Christ Hospital said they would build a $350 million dollar expansion if the streetcar comes to fruition, Sibcy Cline is solidly behind it due to property values increasing, the casino, etc.

Supposedly, there are over a dozen streetcar projects in the US near construction and over 50 other cities are currently researching and conducting studies. What amazes me is that Cincinnati's is/was ranked in the top 5 out of all the dozens of cities wanting federal funds.

In all cases, I believe the ridership doesn't really come close to covering the operating expenses. However, the economic development has been so great in every city that all the initial routes have been extended as more neighborhoods demand it comes to them

Regardless, TRAC has proven itself to be political(instead of apolitical when it was founded in 1997) when it A) gave the project the highest rated transportation project in the state or B) Took away the money for the highest rated transportation project in the state. Democrat or republican bias, we'll never know. It's just political. I just don't know how the same board can vote 9-0 in favor of funding in december, then overwhelmingly oppose it in April. Something definitely went on behind the scenes when Strickland was in office or with Kasich

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

The real question is not the streetcar, but how quickly will _LH destroy all intelligent thought and ultimately lock up this thread tomorrow

[Fred Garvin 2.0]

thor, I think a scaled back version will be a success. I know that sounds crazy, but young professionals and developers love rail.

Just anecdotally, the more I read about streetcar projects around the country, the better I feel about them. No locale seems to regret building them. To the contrary, cities that have them plan on expanding service.

Buffoon, you might want to look at Tampa.

[PM Thor]

It's very unusual because it seems like it wouldn't make sense especially in cities like Little Rock and Kenosha. I originally wasn't for the idea either. It seemed like a gimmick and a waste of money. But when the casino backed it I started to second guess myself. There does need to be more private contributions though imo. It sounds like dozens of small businesses in OTR (taste of belgium, new christian moerlein, etc) are solidly behind it, Christ Hospital said they would build a $350 million dollar expansion if the streetcar comes to fruition, Sibcy Cline is solidly behind it due to property values increasing, the casino, etc.


Huh, maybe the state pulling money could be a good thing. Hear me out here. Maybe, just maybe, if the big business/donors know that the streetcar is going to be waaay scaled back, they step up and donate, wheras before, they just expected the government to spend the money while they reap the benefits. Why spend hard earned money when you know the gobment is going to cover the cost anyway, kind of thing. No though? Perhaps the private sector gets more involved. (just ignore those municipal bonds from the city though)

I HATE dayton.

[_LH]

In case anyone was wondering which specific post put _LH in the red, it was this one.

You give me negative reps (like I care) because I wrote the truth? Hmmm.

[_LH]

Huh, maybe the state pulling money could be a good thing. Hear me out here. Maybe, just maybe, if the big business/donors know that the streetcar is going to be waaay scaled back, they step up and donate, wheras before, they just expected the government to spend the money while they reap the benefits. Why spend hard earned money when you know the gobment is going to cover the cost anyway, kind of thing. No though? Perhaps the private sector gets more involved. (just ignore those municipal bonds from the city though)

I HATE dayton.

I am all in favor of a privately funded streetcar system. I still think it will fail but it will be their loss.

[bmblue]

Cincinnati destroying the streetcar is exactly the type thing that cincinnati does to hold itself back. The only people who oppose it are old rich white man conservatives from the suburbs who do not live in the city and rarely visit it for reasons other than work. The OVERWHELMING majority of young professionals strongly support it, a group the city should be trying to please in addition to attracting more of..

And for those who say people wont use it, you are crazy. Even a scaled back version, people will ride from otr to the banks at nighttime. People will ride it to lunch and happy hours during the week.

Who says it on this board...if you build it they will come.

[_LH]

Cincinnati destroying the streetcar is exactly the type thing that cincinnati does to hold itself back. The only people who oppose it are old rich white man conservatives from the suburbs who do not live in the city and rarely visit it for reasons other than work. The OVERWHELMING majority of young professionals strongly support it, a group the city should be trying to please in addition to attracting more of..

And for those who say people wont use it, you are crazy. Even a scaled back version, people will ride from otr to the banks at nighttime. People will ride it to lunch and happy hours during the week.

Who says it on this board...if you build it they will come.

I have lived in Cincinnati for almost 40 years and there is now way "people" will do any of that stuff downtown. Cincinnati is pretty walkable for the most part and no one currently parks in OTR and then attends a game at GABP. They are building the Banks to keep people close to major venues because they know that historically, they can just get in their cars after a Reds game for example and drive back to Mason or NKY and go to bars or eat dinner a stone's throw from where they live. Building a streetcar won't change this because most will still have to drive 20-40 miles from there to get home.