Rolen to the Reds?

[Smooth]

Is it possible? Will it help?

If EE is included in the trade, about 1/3 of Rolen's $11 million he is owed is cleared, with an entire off season to clear the rest if deemed necessary by ownership. If the Reds include enough in the trade they can get a some cash to help with the $6 million he is still owed this year.

Obviously he is better defensively (even with all his injuries) than EE. He is so much more consistent than EE on offense that he is a big improvement even assuming that EE has one of his hot streaks in the 2nd half of the season.

Is it enough? No. Leadoff questions, horrific Bruce batting average, holes at SS and LF. The Reds don't have to solve all of those to win the division, but they need internal improvement in all those areas if they do not make another acquisition. That is probably too much too hope for, let alone count on.

With the amount of help needed, the Reds would probably have to give up too much talent to fill their holes externally, unless they agree to take on a ton of salary. I'm not holding my breath on that.

[SixFig]

If Castellini feels secure enough financially, there could be some damn good bargains out there.

Wonder what the going rate is on a new manager?

[bobbiemcgee]

Atkins might be a better deal @ 3.4 . He has had 100 rbi the last 4 yrs and hit 310 in June

[AviatorX]

Atkins might be a better deal @ 3.4 . He has had 100 rbi the last 4 yrs and hit 310 in June

The Coors effect though. I don't think either deal will go down, but if the Reds are serious about competing, bringing in a veteran who's having a solid season like Rolen would be huge and would certainly make a bigger "splash" than adding Atkins.

[GuyFawkes38]

Wonder what the going rate is on a new manager?

Managers are incredibly cheap compared to players (managers are payed much, much less than NBA and NFL coaches on a per game basis).

I think that should also tell us that the Reds do NOT have a Dusty Baker problem.

[LyonsIsFlyin]

I think the Reds have a big Dusty problem.

Is he better than we've had recently, sure, but is that saying anything? No.

Reds have a nice nucleus of players. They are young and Dusty is bringing them along okay, but if we desire a playoff run, I'm not putting my money on us being led there with Dusty. Hope he proves me wrong.... but he won't.

[GuyFawkes38]

I think the Reds have a big Dusty problem.

Is he better than we've had recently, sure, but is that saying anything? No.

Reds have a nice nucleus of players. They are young and Dusty is bringing them along okay, but if we desire a playoff run, I'm not putting my money on us being led there with Dusty. Hope he proves me wrong.... but he won't.


I'm a follow the money type guy.

here's MLB salaries for managers in 2007:


Salaries for all 30 managers for the 2007 (various sources)
* Joe Torre, NYY $7.5 million
Lou Piniella, CHC $3.5 million
Bobby Cox, ATL $3 million
Tony La Russa, STL $2.8 million
Mike Scioscia, LAA $2 million
Jim Leyland, DET $2 million
Bruce Bochy, SF $1.75 million
Terry Francona, BOS $1.65 million
* Phil Garner, HOU $1.5 million
* Mike Hargrove, SEA $1.3 million
Ron Gardenhire, MIN $1.25 million
Ozzie Guillen, CHW $1.1 million
Eric Wedge, CLE $1.025 million
* Jim Tracy, PIT $1 million
Bob Melvin, ARI $875,000
* Buddy Bell, KC $825,000
Ned Yost, MIL $825,000
Clint Hurdle, COL $800,000
Charlie Manuel, PHI $800,000
Willie Randolph, NYM $700,000
Fredi Gonzalez, FL $650,000
* Jerry Narron, CIN $600,000
* Grady Little, LAD $600,000
* Sam Perlozzo, BAL $600,000
Ron Washington, TEX $600,000
Bud Black, SD $550,000
Joe Maddon, TAM $550,000
John Gibbons, TOR $500,000
Manny Acta, WAS $500,000
Bob Geren, OAK $500,000

It's remarkable how little MLB values their managers compared to players.

Lyons, you could be right. Perhaps managers could be important for team success. But you would be in the minority with such an opinion.

Most team presidents believe that it comes down to players.



Edit: wow, apparently Dusty Baker receives 3.5 million a year, which does seem oddly expensive. regardless, I still think that the point stands that most MLB teams believe that managers aren't important.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I'm a follow the money type guy.

here's MLB salaries for managers in 2007:



It's remarkable how little MLB values their managers compared to players.

Lyons, you could be right. Perhaps managers could be important for team success. But you would be in the minority with such an opinion.

Most team presidents believe that it comes down to players.



Edit: wow, apparently Dusty Baker receives 3.5 million a year, which does seem oddly expensive. regardless, I still think that the point stands that most MLB teams believe that managers aren't important.

They probably get paid less because of their ridiculous attire. Could you imagine Bill Belichick on the sidelines in a football uniform? How about Phil Jackson in an NBA jersey?

[GuyFawkes38]

For the new NBA bargaining agreement, the players should push for full uniforms for coaches. Watching Stan Van Gundy coach in a uniform would be priceless.

[D-West & PO-Z]

For the new NBA bargaining agreement, the players should push for full uniforms for coaches. Watching Stan Van Gundy coach in a uniform would be priceless.

Ha, no kidding. They would have to make sure he went with the old school shorts though. Wait, maybe not.

[bobbiemcgee]

The Coors effect though. I don't think either deal will go down, but if the Reds are serious about competing, bringing in a veteran who's having a solid season like Rolen would be huge and would certainly make a bigger "splash" than adding Atkins.

Atkins has twice the RBI's as Rolen in the last 4 yrs, he's younger and never hurt all the time.

[Juice]

Atkins has twice the RBI's as Rolen in the last 4 yrs, he's younger and never hurt all the time.

Garret Atkins is awful. RBIs are situational and Rolen would ruin pitchers in Coors.

Defensively, Rolen's UZR is 2.2 and Atkins' is a -3.1.
Offensively, Rolen's OPS is .864 and Atkins' is .642 and he plays in Coors.

Personally I do not care for Rolen because the Reds would have to pay him about 6 million this year and 11 million next year but I will be pissed if they trade for Garret Atkins.

[AdamtheFlyer]

I would love to have Rolen if it meant Castellini would be adding payroll. I would hate it if Rolen's contract would drag them down. If Edwin were a part of the deal that wouldn't be much of an issue because then you're only adding $5 million or so next year. But the Jays are reportedly balking at Edwin.

Rolen would bring a consistent RH bat to the lineup and better defense than they currently have at third. He's not an end all be all by any means, but he's an upgrade. They still need a SS, another SP, and Willy Taveras on the bench. I do the deal if you can make it happen without giving up and real prospects (Frazier, Alonso, Wood, Heisey).

[Fireball]

I like Rolen, but I'm not sure that now is the right time to get him. This team just doesn't seem to me to be in contention for the long haul this year....even WITH Rolen. Plus, I'd like to give Edwin some time to turn it around before we go trading prospects.

[bobbiemcgee]

Garret Atkins is awful. RBIs are situational and Rolen would ruin pitchers in Coors.

Defensively, Rolen's UZR is 2.2 and Atkins' is a -3.1.
Offensively, Rolen's OPS is .864 and Atkins' is .642 and he plays in Coors.

Personally I do not care for Rolen because the Reds would have to pay him about 6 million this year and 11 million next year but I will be pissed if they trade for Garret Atkins.

400 rbi in 4 yrs., yeah, he stinks

[Fireball]

Atkins' numbers away from Coors the last couple of years have not been good. Unless we got the guy for Taveras and a case of Big League Chew, I don't want him. I have no desire to give up prospects for him.

[bobbiemcgee]

Atkins' numbers away from Coors the last couple of years have not been good. Unless we got the guy for Taveras and a case of Big League Chew, I don't want him. I have no desire to give up prospects for him.

You're paying Willy 6.25m so don't look for that to happen but thx for taking him.

[bobbiemcgee]

The "Fogger" isn't getting any work here, we'll take the the Chew for him...lol

[bobbiemcgee]

The Rockies could contend with Halladay. They have the prospects and the cash after getting rid of Holliday's contract. He lives here year round so I'm sure he would ok the trade, but they're too cheap to pull the trigger. Sad.

[Fred Garvin]

I would love to have Rolen if it meant Castellini would be adding payroll. I would hate it if Rolen's contract would drag them down. If Edwin were a part of the deal that wouldn't be much of an issue because then you're only adding $5 million or so next year. But the Jays are reportedly balking at Edwin.

Rolen would bring a consistent RH bat to the lineup and better defense than they currently have at third. He's not an end all be all by any means, but he's an upgrade. They still need a SS, another SP, and Willy Taveras on the bench. I do the deal if you can make it happen without giving up and real prospects (Frazier, Alonso, Wood, Heisey).

We don't need another starting pitcher. If anything we need to subtract one(Arroyo and the 24 mill he'll get the next two years).

[Fred Garvin]

The manager compensation is interesting. Did Dusty sign on for three years? Can Larussa walk after this season?

I'd buy out Dusty in a heartbeat if I thought I could get Larussa and Duncan. Hell, I'd give Larussa 7 mill a year. You could take the Cordero money and give it to him. He'd just develop some scrub like Ryan Franklin into his closer. And Duncan would revive a Kyle Lhose.

Not sure about Jocketty's relationship with TL. I remember hearing rumbles about the Cardinals going in more of a sabermetric direction around when Walt exited. Any Cardinal fans with the scoop?

[AdamtheFlyer]

The manager compensation is interesting. Did Dusty sign on for three years? Can Larussa walk after this season?

I'd buy out Dusty in a heartbeat if I thought I could get Larussa and Duncan. Hell, I'd give Larussa 7 mill a year. You could take the Cordero money and give it to him. He'd just develop some scrub like Ryan Franklin into his closer. And Duncan would revive a Kyle Lhose.

Not sure about Jocketty's relationship with TL. I remember hearing rumbles about the Cardinals going in more of a sabermetric direction around when Walt exited. Any Cardinal fans with the scoop?

That's pretty much exactly what happened. They went with Mozeliak because he represented a shift toward developing prospects from within and doing so with more of a SABR focus. People in STL weren't happy with the farm system.

Dusty is not good, but they certainly won't be bringing in LaRussa. If it didn't happen before 2008 when LaRussa and the Cardinals were on the verge of a breakup, it won't ever happen. God's gift to baseball (just ask him) will run the Cardinals for the rest of his career. He's not leaving Pooholes.

[An X Fan]

Jay Bruce apparently fractured his wrist tonight. The Mets fans kept saying, "ohhhh" as they showed it on the big screen - it was ugly. Walt had said, at least publicly, that he was interested in acquiring a right handed outfield bat. If he's pursuing Rolen, you have to think his sights will shift back to the outfield.

[Juice]

That's pretty much exactly what happened. They went with Mozeliak because he represented a shift toward developing prospects from within and doing so with more of a SABR focus. People in STL weren't happy with the farm system.

Dusty is not good, but they certainly won't be bringing in LaRussa. If it didn't happen before 2008 when LaRussa and the Cardinals were on the verge of a breakup, it won't ever happen. God's gift to baseball (just ask him) will run the Cardinals for the rest of his career. He's not leaving Pooholes.

Walt would trade away the good prospects in moves at the trade deadline for a playoff/World Series push.

Obviously he has not done that here because the Reds have been nowhere near being a contender.

[STL_XUfan]

The manager compensation is interesting. Did Dusty sign on for three years? Can Larussa walk after this season?

I'd buy out Dusty in a heartbeat if I thought I could get Larussa and Duncan. Hell, I'd give Larussa 7 mill a year. You could take the Cordero money and give it to him. He'd just develop some scrub like Ryan Franklin into his closer. And Duncan would revive a Kyle Lhose.

Not sure about Jocketty's relationship with TL. I remember hearing rumbles about the Cardinals going in more of a sabermetric direction around when Walt exited. Any Cardinal fans with the scoop?

TLR is on a rolling 1 year deal that he will not discuss at all with anyone until the end of the year. As he puts it, at the end of the season he will decide if he still wants to manage, do the cardinals still want him, and can he win in this situation.

Then again when you get to write the name Albert Pujols into the lineup card everyday, why would you want to leave.

[GuyFawkes38]

TLR is on a rolling 1 year deal that he will not discuss at all with anyone until the end of the year. As he puts it, at the end of the season he will decide if he still wants to manage, do the cardinals still want him, and can he win in this situation.

Then again when you get to write the name Albert Pujols into the lineup card everyday, why would you want to leave.

Seems like he deserves more money. Thad Matta is paid about the same as him as Tony. Makes very little sense.

[STL_XUfan]

Seems like he deserves more money. Thad Matta is paid about the same as him as Tony. Makes very little sense.

While there is more money involved in pro sports, more money is also handed out (those crazy players and their desire to get paid).

In college that money is focused into the only paid position their allowed to have. Therefore it becomes logical to start measuring the school by coaches salary, while in the majors it might be overall payroll. (eg. Yankee's big market 200mil pay roll, Florida small market 30 mil pay roll ----- UK 5 million dollar coach, St. Bonaventure 350k coach)

On top of that I think a college coach also may have a more difficult job. The recruiting aspect alone I think tips that scale. On top of that you have to manage the lives of 18-22 year olds to make sure they perform on the field, in the class room, and keep them out of trouble with NCAA. In the Pro's your GM's gets you talent, and you let that talent play (may be a little more complex than that but still easier than extremely young players).

[GuyFawkes38]

While there is more money involved in pro sports, more money is also handed out (those crazy players and their desire to get paid).

In college that money is focused into the only paid position their allowed to have. Therefore it becomes logical to start measuring the school by coaches salary, while in the majors it might be overall payroll. (eg. Yankee's big market 200mil pay roll, Florida small market 30 mil pay roll ----- UK 5 million dollar coach, St. Bonaventure 350k coach)

On top of that I think a college coach also may have a more difficult job. The recruiting aspect alone I think tips that scale. On top of that you have to manage the lives of 18-22 year olds to make sure they perform on the field, in the class room, and keep them out of trouble with NCAA. In the Pro's your GM's gets you talent, and you let that talent play (may be a little more complex than that but still easier than extremely young players).

your above argument doesn't seem to hold for NBA coaches, who are paid more than the vast majority of college coaches. Here's a list from 2007 of the 10 lowest paid coaches in the NBA:




22t Lawrence Frank, NJ 4-10 2007-08 2.5

22t Mike D’Antoni, Phx 3-7.5 i-2009-10 2.5

24 Eric Musselman, Sac 3-7 2008-09 2.33

25t Mike Brown, Cle 4-8.8 2008-09 2.2

25t Dwane Casey, Min 5-11 j-Fired 2.2

27t Mike Woodson, Atl 4-8 2007-08 2.0

27t Terry Stotts, Mil 5-10 k-2009-10 2.0

29 Bob Hill, Sea 1-1.75 2006-07 1.75

30 Sam Mitchell, Tor 3-4.9 2006-07 1.63


Of course, I guess it's a bad argument to claim that Larussa deserves more cash because most NBA coaches make more money than him.

But does Dusty Baker really deserve to be paid a half million more per year than Larussa.

It seems like a real possibility that a larger market might try to lure Larussa over with more cash.

[AdamtheFlyer]

It's about leverage.

Baseball managers make less money because there is a widespread belief, one actually backed up by guys such as Bill James, that managers have very little effect on actual wins and losses. It's like a maximum of +/- 5 games. You have 25 big league players, FO folks, scouts, and an entire farm system to fund, and all are viewed as more important than the manager.

NBA franchises are smaller, pay less in player salary, and the prevailing wisdom is that coaches truly matter. They have more leverage.

NFL coaches have virtually all the leverage, because they're viewed as THE guy. From the draft, to free agents, to ego managing, to all the prep work on a weekly basis...these guys generally have the biggest say in everything. College football and basketball coaches (we're talking the top 25-30 programs for a better correlation) fit too, with recruiting taking the place of drafting and FAs.

In general, this is why you see NFL and college coaches canned sooner when things go wrong, and the truly bad ones (Kevin O'Neill notwithstanding) don't last long. Baseball managers get recycled like crazy, because they'll work for peanuts by comparison and generally don't make a difference. They're simply a scapegoat 90% of the time.