Christopher Smitherman = Not Smart

[Kahns Krazy]

Not that this is groundbreaking news to anyone who knows the guy, but I came across this while reading up on the NAACP's efforts to get some rediculous charter amendment on the ballot this fall.

This is from a letter Smitherman wrote back in January. You can read the whole thing Here (http://www.wcpo.com/news/local/story/Smitherman-Writes-Anti-Streetcar-Letter-to-Obama/gJBSK6qMTU2gqTip2Xzv-Q.cspx)


Mr. President, it is predicted that the unemployment rates for African Americans in the City of Cincinnati will hit 25-30% in 2009. The City's African American population is 45%. Therefore, every 2 out of 3 African Americans in the City of Cincinnati will be unemployed come 2010. This means that unemployment of African Americans in the City of Cincinnati will reach The Great Depression levels while the broader unemployment rate will be 9-10% this year.

This is from a letter written to the effin' President of the United States, and copied to the Mayor and all the local media outlets.

I think if I were going to take the time to write a letter to the President and copy the local media, that I would proofread it enough to make sure there were no idiotic statements in there. 25% unemployment + 45% of the population = 2/3rds unemployed? What?

Keep in mind when you see the anti-streetcar bill on the ballot this fall, that this is the smarts of the guy behind it.

[xeus]

Keep in mind when you see the anti-streetcar bill on the ballot this fall, that this is the smarts of the guy behind it.

I think the worse math is on the side of those who favor the streetcar. And Chris Finney, who is the primary force behind the ballot initiative, is actually a pretty smart guy.

Smitherman is an idiot and a clown and I don't like it when he's on my side of an issue.

[Kahns Krazy]

I think the worse math is on the side of those who favor the streetcar. And Chris Finney, who is the primary force behind the ballot initiative, is actually a pretty smart guy.

Smitherman is an idiot and a clown and I don't like it when he's on my side of an issue.

If you find some math in the pro-streetcar arguement that turns 25% into 66% returns, I'd be forced to agree with you. I don't think you'll find it though.

As you know, I'm in favor of downtown development and the streetcar concept. I think there is a solution that involves a mix of investors, including some public money. I don't think it make sense in this economy to make that the priority, but I believe the investment can generate some substantial returns in a more normal and stable economy. If I had my wish, it would be to table the idea for 2 years, then get back to it.

I am totally opposed to this retarded initiative Smitherman is trying to get on the ballot to block any investment for certain right of way property expenditures without a vote. He's trying to sell it as an "Anti-Streetcar" item, but from what I've seen, I believe it will have impact well beyond just the streetcar issue.

[xeus]

I am totally opposed to this retarded initiative Smitherman is trying to get on the ballot to block any investment for certain right of way property expenditures without a vote. He's trying to sell it as an "Anti-Streetcar" item, but from what I've seen, I believe it will have impact well beyond just the streetcar issue.

I am not necessarily a fan of ballot initiatives like this, but I am totally opposed to the public funding of a streetcar system. Not only is it impractical in its own right, even if someone were able to articulate why it makes sense, it certainly is nowhere near the top of the list in terms of priorities for this city.

I would like to know why it has to be a "streetcar" with special rails and the whole infrastructure that the streetcar requires. Why can't the idea be explored with wheeled vehicles? Is there some advantage to having this system on tracks that brings an extra benefit? is there some incremental economic growth that depends specifically on there being a track system installed?

I'd also like to get a good explanation of who the target customer is for this system. I'd like to have someone point in the direction of some real answers on this issue, rather than the silly "it worked in Portland" argument, and the even more silly "it will drive economic growth". Driving economic growth is a noble concept, but I want to know exactly how that will work. And why a streetcar is so important.

I drove around the west end and down Liberty Street and Vine Street a couple days ago. Nice neighborhood. I do know the "Gateway Quarter" as it is called has a handful of shops and some residential efforts, but it is a long way from anything. As we saw on the (failed)Main Street bar district, there is simply no buffer zone between the nicely developed main drag and the ghetto. (And yes, I know that calling parts of OTR and West End "ghetto" will cause some to call me a "ninny suburbanite" who is afraid of the city.)

Bottom line, I'm all for downtown development but it ain't got nothing to do with no stupid streetcar.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

I believe the majority of money is coming from the following:
Fed stimulus money earmarked for transportation *we dont take it, another city will"
TIF Finance district
Private Donations from The Business community.

The study done shows a 15:1 economic impact and a 2.75:1 benefit to cost ratios. I believe those were done conservatively. At the end of the day, the numbers can be grossly understated or overstated, but the end result is still positive.

Businesses are lining up in advance along the route.

Intially i was against it. Then I saw I shared the same position as Smitherman so I started reading the studies and liked what I read.

[Lamont Sanford]

Smitherman's an assclown.

I'm voting for a Bookmobile to go through OTR.

[Snipe]

I have met Smitherman during some neighborhood outreach thingado. Assclown is putting it nicely.

He sure has a nice opinion of himself. I liked when he kept calling himself coucilman Smitherman after he was voted out of office. I think he wanted that title for life.

[Snipe]

As for the streetcar, I only support it if they use eminent domain to take the CityLink site away from Crossroads Community Church and use it as a hub. We could make a deal and hold Christmas Mass on the streetcar because you know those fake Christians don't have one. Other than that I haven't really looked into the idea very much. I know of some investors downtown that think it is a good idea.

I think we need a jail.

[Kahns Krazy]

I'm not in favor of 100% public funding of the streetcar, or any development that is projected to deliver benefits to certain private interests. I'd like to see the private investment rate somewhere in the 70% range before I'd be in favor of spending any public money to support the idea.

We've gotten off-track though. My post was about how big of an idiot Chris Smitherman is.

[blobfan]

[QUOTE=JimmyTwoTimes37;133103]...

The study done shows a 15:1 economic impact and a 2.75:1 benefit to cost ratios. I believe those were done conservatively. At the end of the day, the numbers can be grossly understated or overstated, but the end result is still positive.

...QUOTE]

Didn't we get similar studies from the Bengals and NFL a few years ago? How'd that work out for us?

I'm anti-streetcar and anti-anti-streetcar ammendment. I think it's rediculous that we want to hard-wire this type of issue into the city charter.

Smitherman is an ass-clown. I'm still mad at myself that I believed his BS and actually voted for him to be on council. That's one of the stupidest things I've ever done in my life. He ran as a uniter and has been anything but. He had my number though.

His math doesn't appall me as much as his determination to make the government fix a problem that individual people create. Why does the NAACP spend so much time on fighting legal and media battles and so little time on practical, impactful programs that would help, I don't know, ADVANCE the black community?

Kahns, did you see the other brilliant pronouncement that he's sponsoring an initiative at next week's national NAACP conference that they come out in support of Crime Stoppers? It only took him since last Fall to come up with that one. And the local chapter is donating a whopping $1000 for 2 specific rewards. I wonder how much the local chapter has spent on these silly initiative fights.

[Kahns Krazy]

[QUOTE=JimmyTwoTimes37;133103]...

The study done shows a 15:1 economic impact and a 2.75:1 benefit to cost ratios. I believe those were done conservatively. At the end of the day, the numbers can be grossly understated or overstated, but the end result is still positive.

...QUOTE]

Didn't we get similar studies from the Bengals and NFL a few years ago? How'd that work out for us?

... .


It's hard to say what our downtown would be like today without the stadiums. In general, the part of downtown that is closest to the stadiums is in much better shape than it was 10 years ago. I'm the target demographic for the stadiums though, so my opinion is biased.

On Smitherman, don't feel bad that you bought snake oil from the snake oil salesman. That's what he does.

Nate Livingston hates Smitherman. I find that to be an interesting dynamic.

[blobfan]

It's hard to say what our downtown would be like today without the stadiums. In general, the part of downtown that is closest to the stadiums is in much better shape than it was 10 years ago. I'm the target demographic for the stadiums though, so my opinion is biased.

...

It's not the stadiums exactly that has me worried but rather the load of bull that was fed to voters to convince them to build a stadium for the Bengals that included such a one-sided contract. I see no real benefit to it. None. And it's not as though it's accessible to your average Cincinnatian.

So here we are a little over a decade after pro-football people fed us bogus numbers and conned us into a bad contract and we're going to believe numbers from pro-streetcar people trying to get their pet project done? Because Cincinnati has so much in common with Portland and San Francisco that streetcars would be a perfect fit?

[Snipe]

What about the slave museum of the Freedom Center. Whatever they want to call it. Tell me that isn't just plain a disaster. The lied about those numbers.

Smitherman sucks.

[sirthought]

I highly recommend checking out the PBS series e2: Transport. It's an eye-opening series and I specifically recommend viewing the episode called "Portland: A Sense of Place."
http://www.pbs.org/e2/transport.html

Investing in the streetcars will bring in as much development and economic boost as any pro football or baseball stadium will over the long haul. Maybe more. Plus, you have the added benefit that it's working for multiple benefactors. It's what Cincinnati has needed for ages and it's time we bite the bullet and get started!

Smitherman is an idiot who has tried to make political allies out of the wrong people for the wrong reasons and he's quickly turned from being a promising public servant to a total embarrassment.

It's been seen time and again that when you have a mode of transportation like this that businesses want to build along streetcar lines. Why? Because people from multiple neighborhoods ride it and browse the shops, restaurants, etc. Real estate becomes attractive because it's a X minute walk from the line. There's more jobs in the vicinity of the transport line.

This is just smart investment that Cincinnati needs.

[wkrq59]

Xeus--Courage man. Ghetto has become a distorted word equated with slum or crime. Ghetto I have always thought of is any area where people of a particular ethnic background live..the Italian and Jewish ghetos in NYC for example. But that's just this old man's take. :D

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

It's not the stadiums exactly that has me worried but rather the load of bull that was fed to voters to convince them to build a stadium for the Bengals that included such a one-sided contract. I see no real benefit to it. None. And it's not as though it's accessible to your average Cincinnatian.

So here we are a little over a decade after pro-football people fed us bogus numbers and conned us into a bad contract and we're going to believe numbers from pro-streetcar people trying to get their pet project done? Because Cincinnati has so much in common with Portland and San Francisco that streetcars would be a perfect fit?

Don't forget the Banks was supposed to be in between the stadiums. If it had been built as scheduled 10 years ago, things might be very very different. Imagine a Newport on the levee with condo's and apartments in between the stadium. But Cincy balked and NK took advantage. Another "what if" of Cincinnati

[PM Thor]

Alls I know is that whenever the government tries to force feed economic development upon an area things don't work the way they say they will.

I would be all for the streetcar system if there was money in the coffers for it, but in this day and age, now is not the time to be wasting money on a half baked attempt to revamp the nations most dangerous neighborhood.

I may be biased (duh) but I think there are more important things to be spending city money on, like, oh I dunno, saving the jobs potentially of 200 cops and 100 firefighters.
How much money exactly is the city throwing at this, without fed money and the whatnot? Last I heard it was a lot, but no one could ever pin down a real number...

I HATE dayton.

[sirthought]

PM Thor,

You can find better places to read on this topic than what I can write, but there is a difference here in what they are spending for operating and development.

The streetcar line will be created mostly with private funding. The development dollars they want to spend are mostly for the studies that have to be done to make sure everything is falling in line with codes and engineering/environmental specs. Government needs the ability to mobilize a project like this for it to work, as no private developer would have the means to make it all happen.

In the end this would help police and firemen jobs for multiple reasons.
1) It's proven that when development like this happens in a high poverty area such as OTR, crime greatly declines. Not just the development of train tracks or street cars, but all of the stations and businesses that want to be around the stations. I wish I could link to something for you, but I can't right now. I read a lot about it when there was debate on moving the Reds to Broadway Commons.

Anyhow, plenty of people and I believe this would improve the crime rate between Clifton to Downtown, easing the work load for police in at least some way. It's a good thing for the city's core. More people in an area often means less crime. (And despite the publicity OTR gets for shootings, etc. the crime rate has declined in recent years.)

2) Residence rates increase in areas where there is easy public transportation. More people you have living in Downtown, OTR, Mt. Auburn, etc. the more the tax base improves to pay for police and fire.

The city needs residents to pay for the services required. That means either higher taxes or more taxpayers. So it's smart to develop something like this that attracts urban dwellers.

You also have to look at the tax base increasing due to more business activity around the proposed street car line. Property, Income, and Sales.

Every weekend Downtown could have more economic boost because it would be easier for people to get into the city for festivals, sports events, or just going out to eat.

So if you as a fireman want to get paid make sure you're looking for ways to raise tax income in the best possible way.

[blobfan]

...Every weekend Downtown could have more economic boost because it would be easier for people to get into the city for festivals, sports events, or just going out to eat.
...

How exactly is a streetcar going to help me to get from my house in Pleasant Ridge, 1/2 mile from the nearest bus stop, to downtown for an event on the weekend when the bus runs maybe every 30 minutes? Or someone that lives in Anderson or the west side or even Price Hill? Even if they run the trolley from downtown all the way to the hospitals as planned, the bus system is seriously deficient and receives less support every year. Until we come up with a comprehensive regional public transportation plan that fixes the current bus system, the streetcar will not provide enough development to justify it's cost.

When's the last time you saw someone build a house starting with the living room? You have to start with a good foundation or the structure is going to crumble. I keep hearing about all these studies of streetcars in other cities but I've never heard of one that STARTED with the streetcar. I believe Portland had a firm commitment to decent public transportation then built the trolley as part of a SYSTEM.

[Pablo's Brother]

Rickshaws are the answer!

Increases tourism, cheap, environmentally correct, gives the homeless (and ex UC players) jobs and promotes physical activity.

Let Smitherman "manage" the drivers. He sure knows how to keep his kids in line, so you know labor problems will be minimal.

[sirthought]

How exactly is a streetcar going to help me to get from my house in Pleasant Ridge, 1/2 mile from the nearest bus stop, to downtown for an event on the weekend when the bus runs maybe every 30 minutes? Or someone that lives in Anderson or the west side or even Price Hill? Even if they run the trolley from downtown all the way to the hospitals as planned, the bus system is seriously deficient and receives less support every year. Until we come up with a comprehensive regional public transportation plan that fixes the current bus system, the streetcar will not provide enough development to justify it's cost.

When's the last time you saw someone build a house starting with the living room? You have to start with a good foundation or the structure is going to crumble. I keep hearing about all these studies of streetcars in other cities but I've never heard of one that STARTED with the streetcar. I believe Portland had a firm commitment to decent public transportation then built the trolley as part of a SYSTEM.

People in suburbs are still going to have to find their way into the core to get near a station of some kind. We all know this isn't a comprehensive system, so don't put it down because it's not. It's a beginning. But there is more than enough population that lives in the areas that are not Downtown that could be going Downtown every weekend on the streetcar for said entertainment. It's all written out in the studies available.

I'd prefer a system that went up to Pleasant Ridge. I'd prefer the light rail and subway system that was voted down years ago.

The last part of your argument makes no sense to me. This is an investment in the urban core and we already have a foundation. It's call the city. There's already infrastructure and enough population to work with. The street car will increase the population near Downtown. A key goal in the current plan will allow UC students easier transportation to Downtown and the riverfront.

No subway or light rail system begins with all the lines completed at once. But I know the folks at OKI have been working with planners for years on creating routes and scenarios that could be put into place if the funding is in place. The number one thing that streetcar lines have proven to do in city after city is increase revenues.

And from the Cincinnati Streetcar website (http://www.cincystreetcar.com) it states:

Connecting the major attractions, employment centers, and neighborhoods is the goal of the later phases of the streetcar system. In addition to bringing new economic development and residents to these areas, the streetcar will reduce congestion and improve the character of the city.
There are 46 other cities across the United States that are studying, developing, building, or operating streetcar systems for similar reasons including: Austin, Baltimore, Chicago, Indianapolis, Memphis, New Orleans, Sacramento, St. Louis, Tampa, and Washington DC.

[wkrq59]

People. If you all want to see the Streetcar system in operation in Cincinnati and what a boondoggle it will be, drive out Central Parkway or come down I-75 southbound and --carefully please--look to your left, quickly so as not to create dangerous conditions. There you will see the grand folly of Cincinnati's beautiful, modern, millions wasted subway system.
The reason we'll have street cars instead of trolley buses is so more construction can take place and I'm sure somebody's palms will be crossed with silver to get those contracts. This city has never had--in 50 years--a profitable, public mass transit system that served the GREATER CINCINNATI community on both sides of the river.
Throwing money into Over the Rhine is not going to solve its problems. Throwing money into "Uptown"--aka Corryville, Clifton, Fairview Heights and whatever else you want to call "pill hill," is the same. Why? Because traffic in and around both areas is such a convoluted mess--drive over the "smooth????" Auburn Ave. to Christ Hospital--and you'll see. Also, at last look, almost all the hospital expansion is north, east and west on the outskirts of Cincinnati, in Green Twp., Fairfield, West Chester and beyond.
Why waste the money on a vote. Tell council to go suck and put the money to use restoring the services that have been cut and the pensions and health care that has been truncated. :(:(

[sirthought]

Q,

I'm not following you. Traffic is why it won't succeed? Hospitals locations? How old is your target demographic? Have you looked at the route?

Street cars is mass transit with the idea that you need fewer cars in the area it rides in.

This will bring more, younger adults moving into the central core area increasing property values. It'll increase business development along the route in Avondale, Clifton, Corryville, Mt. Auburn, OTR, and Downtown and at the same time decrease crime. Tax revenue will go up along with interest in what's happening Downtown.

[PM Thor]

What is the usage rate of the metro in Cincinnati? I doubt many people are using that regularly. Sure, there is a core group who use it, but I simply cannot see how a streetcar system would have increased usage over busses. Plus, a streetcar system, if put in place would be a built in rival to busses, this hurting that public transport program. I can't get behind this project, not now, and quite frankly I don't buy the argument that since other cities are doing it, we must too.

I HATE dayton.

[Kahns Krazy]

What is the usage rate of the metro in Cincinnati? I doubt many people are using that regularly..

Why don't you save some time and just post "I'm completely ignorant on a subject, but I'm going to weigh in anyway."

The metro provides 22 million rides annually. The population of the county is 840,000. I really don't understand the rest of your post. The streetcar is not designed to compete with the existing bus system.

[PM Thor]

My bad K, I should have stated..."what is the usage rate of busses in the area in which the streetcar system will be implemented?". There, that better?

Meaning, is there such a need for ANOTHER public transit system in that area? Are people jumping on busses in droves to get from Clifton to the downtown area and vice versa? Do we really need, absolutely must have, a streetcar system?

This whole program is a feel good pet project that is wasting time and money. We don't need it, and a majority of the public is against it in these economically troubled times.

I HATE dayton..

[Kahns Krazy]

Well, that's not at all what you said the first time, so I suppose, yes, that is better.

I think most supporters of the idea aren't really pushing for it to be executed until there's some general economic stability. Smitherman is taking it to a ridiculous extreme. I'm concerned that his scare tactics might convince some dumb people to vote for his proposed charter amendment.

Did you hear that recently Smitherman was opposed to selling the waterworks because he says the new owner would have the ability to send water tainted with syphilis to zip codes that black people live in? Seriously, that guy is loony in the dangerous way.

[PM Thor]

I'm not opposed to a streetcar system, not in the least. But you said exactly why I oppose it now, economic stability. Right now I think there are far more important issues to be addressed ie. Cutting basic city services, first and foremost.

It pains me to have any common ground at all with Smitherman, that guy is a waste and preys on public fear through the lowest denominator he can dreg up. Whenever he opens his pie hole he automatically lowers the validity of any issue he backs.

I HATE dayton.

[sirthought]

PM Thor,

I'm not an expert on transportation, but I have read a lot on urban planning and cities having public transportation like this. Metro ridership, by my estimation, is fairly high in these neighborhoods.

Again, this has more to do with the whole effect of the route and the economic development around it. It's not about whether street cars are better than buses.

In my view the two systems are vastly different and if you've ever lived in a city that has a subway, tram, or streetcar system for any period of time you can just feel a difference of how people use them. I use to live in Germany. My city had passenger trains, tram streetcars, and buses and I rode all three in completely different ways. The streetcars are great for social traveling... those getting on and off within a business district even if its just a few blocks away. Very fast and convenient. You'd find lots of shops and cafes along the line that were always busy because those were so convenient to streetcar riders.

With the proposed route's path through downtown it would be great for making multiple stops in an evening when you didn't want to walk that far, but also didn't want to drive and re-park. People just don't ride the bus in that same manner because the bus lines aren't in that constant sight-line that reminds people to use it.

Here is a link to the proposed route http://www.cincystreetcar.com/route.html

I'm for getting this done as soon as possible, recession or not. I feel the gains this will provide for the long haul will far out weigh the concerns complained about.

You are always going to find someone who says they don't want to pay for it, or they won't ride it so why would anyone else want to, or they hate that neighborhood even when they have no clue about how the project might help improve the place...especially if they got involved instead of bitching about it. Let's do something smart and let our elected leaders work towards building economic development, greater tax revenue, and something helpful our citizens can use for years to come.

[Kahns Krazy]

I'm not opposed to a streetcar system, not in the least. But you said exactly why I oppose it now, economic stability. Right now I think there are far more important issues to be addressed ie. Cutting basic city services, first and foremost.

It pains me to have any common ground at all with Smitherman, that guy is a waste and preys on public fear through the lowest denominator he can dreg up. Whenever he opens his pie hole he automatically lowers the validity of any issue he backs.

I HATE dayton.

Thor, let me just say that your first statement and your second one are way different. If you are not opposed to the streetcar, please make sure you understand what Smitherman is trying to push through before you vote for it. If I'm reading you right, you do not have common ground with Smitherman on this one.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Thor, let me just say that your first statement and your second one are way different. If you are not opposed to the streetcar, please make sure you understand what Smitherman is trying to push through before you vote for it. If I'm reading you right, you do not have common ground with Smitherman on this one.

Smitherman's proposal is absurd. To be against the streetcar is one thing. But to get 6000 signatures for a petition to put all rail on a ballot, while misleading the public to thinking its only streetcars is awful.

[blobfan]

The last part of your argument makes no sense to me. This is an investment in the urban core and we already have a foundation. It's call the city. There's already infrastructure and enough population to work with. The street car will increase the population near Downtown. A key goal in the current plan will allow UC students easier transportation to Downtown and the riverfront.

What I'm saying is you don't build a streetcar in the middle of nowhere. I just don't see people moving into downtown just because they get streetcar access to hospitals or Findlay market. And with all the bars around UC, why would those students come downtown? Do you think the average college budget will support regular meals at Mitchell's or Via Vite?


There are 46 other cities across the United States that are studying, developing, building, or operating streetcar systems for similar reasons including: Austin, Baltimore, Chicago, Indianapolis, Memphis, New Orleans, Sacramento, St. Louis, Tampa, and Washington DC.

Don't most of those cities have existing tourist trade that significantly outweighs that in Cincinnati? If you have tourism, it makes sense to look into streetcars. It doesn't follow that streetcars will bring tourism.


I think most supporters of the idea aren't really pushing for it to be executed until there's some general economic stability. Smitherman is taking it to a ridiculous extreme. I'm concerned that his scare tactics might convince some dumb people to vote for his proposed charter amendment.

That's one of the most dangerous things going on here. I'm so afraid that either the measure will pass and we'll be stuck with this stupid amendment forever or it will fail and our clueless leaders will take that as tacit support for the project.


You are always going to find someone who says they don't want to pay for it, or they won't ride it so why would anyone else want to, or they hate that neighborhood even when they have no clue about how the project might help improve the place...especially if they got involved instead of bitching about it. Let's do something smart and let our elected leaders work towards building economic development, greater tax revenue, and something helpful our citizens can use for years to come.

And maybe that's the primary reason I can't support the streetcar: I have absolutely no faith that the leaders others elected for me are making smart, fiscally responsible decisions that are best for ALL the citizens of the region. These people seem to have been elected for the most part by a bunch of people interested in getting the most benefit for the least contribution and it's up to home owners and hard workers like my husband and myself to foot the bill. Their fiscal choices seem to bear this out.

[Kahns Krazy]

What I'm saying is you don't build a streetcar in the middle of nowhere. I just don't see people moving into downtown just because they get streetcar access to hospitals or Findlay market. And with all the bars around UC, why would those students come downtown? Do you think the average college budget will support regular meals at Mitchell's or Via Vite?
.

Are you aware that UC operates a bus already? Thursday through Saturday they run a route that includes the downtown entertainment district and the Newport Levee.

[xeus]

XU 87 informs me that he is too busy with other threads to become embroiled in a streetcar debate, but for what it's worth, he thinks it is a stupid idea. I know many of you subscribe to 87's politics and worldview so I thought you'd want to know ehere he stands on this issue.

[XU 87]

I agree with xeus.

[sirthought]

What I'm saying is you don't build a streetcar in the middle of nowhere. I just don't see people moving into downtown just because they get streetcar access to hospitals or Findlay market. And with all the bars around UC, why would those students come downtown? Do you think the average college budget will support regular meals at Mitchell's or Via Vite?
NOWHERE?! Sorry to speak so personal, but you really need to get out more. Do you ever go Downtown? For more than a Reds or Bengals game? This sounds like your whole opinion is based on what you see on the news. Or that you go home after work and never venture into the city for the wonderful events that happen every week.

I've worked in event PR and marketing for a number of years and see a huge market for UC students patronizing Downtown for shopping, eating, arts entertainment, and just hanging out in the city. When we've had events that target students one of the biggest hurdles to get them to participate was lack of transportation (or perceived). (It's not price b/c there is mostly cheap or free entertainment that's offered all the time.) But we're seeing large numbers of UC students attending more things Downtown all the time, especially since Fountain Square was remodeled. The ease of transportation like this can make all the difference in the world for increasing those numbers with regularity.


Don't most of those cities have existing tourist trade that significantly outweighs that in Cincinnati? If you have tourism, it makes sense to look into streetcars. It doesn't follow that streetcars will bring tourism.

What gives you the impression that Cincinnati doesn't have tourism that competes with those markets? I get to see the advance lists of conventions coming to our city and the analysis of hotel nights we have compared to the surrounding markets. Cincinnati holds its own, but certainly could and should do better.

No, we're not drawing like Chicago or D.C. but I bet we're in line or better those other markets. And having a simple-to-use transportation system like this around Downtown will only make attracting conventions to the city easier.

Based on your comments the reason it clear... you can't support the streetcar because you don't believe Downtown, OTR, Mt. Auburn, Corryville can or should be improved, especially since it doesn't reach your neighborhood. You don't see the city as being a desirable place for tourists. You don't think people in our two largest areas of employment might want to get back and forth without needing a car. And you don't trust elected officials to use their judgment and leadership to actually lead us towards something we can't do on our own.

Why do you hate Cincinnati?

Here's another commentary that might shed more insight than my opinionated ramblings.
http://www.soapboxmedia.com/features/0217soapdishstreetcar.aspx

[XU 87]

So we're going to spend a couple hundred million dollars on streetcars so a few UC students can have some transportation downtown? There's already a bus that goes from Clifton to downtown. Why can't they take that?

But I do know one thing. Very few people are going to drive downtown so they can take the streetcar to Findley Market or to Clifton.

This streetcar is another "nice idea" that costs a fortune with very little tangible/economic benefit.

And did anyone read the Enquirer article on Sunday about the $23 million bus station that goes unused on most days? Another "if we build it they will come" idea.

[Kahns Krazy]

It's fine with me that you don't support the concept, but it bothers me that you trivialize what the proposal is. It isn't a couple hundred million dollars so UC students can have some transportation downtown. It isn't so people can drive downtown and take a streetcar to Findlay market.

The concept is the defining of a downtown district, and a major, permanent investment in the infrastructure of that district.

You can be against something without having to trivialize it.

Actually, I should rephrase that: Other people can be against something without trivializing it. I note that you deleted your comment about how I want the streetcar to go to the library. How big of you.

[xeus]

It's fine with me that you don't support the concept, but it bothers me that you trivialize what the proposal is. It isn't a couple hundred million dollars so UC students can have some transportation downtown. It isn't so people can drive downtown and take a streetcar to Findlay market.

The concept is the defining of a downtown district, and a major, permanent investment in the infrastructure of that district.


So what downtown really needs is infrastructure in the form of a streetcar? That's the brilliant plan for turning that God-forsaken neighborhood into a thriving business district? A streetcar? C'mon - I need something more than "we're defining a downtown district with some real expensive infrastructure."

And asking who is supposed to be attracted to (and use) this streetcar doesn't seem like a trivial question. It seems rather important. Who are we expecting to start spending money in this new business district? Tourists? College kids? People from the suburbs? Downtown residents?

This website is remarkably short on details:

cincystreetcar (http://www.cincystreetcar.com/index.html)

Is the whole economic plan laid out somewhere? I'd love to see the math on the increase in property values, the details of the economic devleopment, and some info on how this city is going to pay for this thing, and most importantly, what the opportunity cost of this major expense is.

I think these are basic questions and I want the answers.

[XU 87]

1) The UC comment was made in reference to the above post talking about how UC students will use it.

2) As for "defining the downtown district", downtown goes from about Second Street (the stadiums) to, at most, about 9th or Court Street. We don't need street cars to walk a few blocks.

3) As for the library joke, that was deleted because I think xeus used it last week and I didn't want to be accused of plagiarizing.

[American X]

It's fine with me that you don't support the concept, but it bothers me that you trivialize what the proposal is.

Look, nobody wants to pay for your childhood fantasy of riding around on a choo-choo.


If the purpose is economic development, why not first reduce sales or properties taxes or lessen the byzantine regulations on construction and business development that do not require the outlay of hundreds of millions of dollars?

[blobfan]

NOWHERE?! Sorry to speak so personal, but you really need to get out more. Do you ever go Downtown? For more than a Reds or Bengals game? This sounds like your whole opinion is based on what you see on the news. Or that you go home after work and never venture into the city for the wonderful events that happen every week.
Sorry. I wasn't very precise in using the word "nowhere." I meant not connected to anything else. The public transit in this city sucks and you can't get from point A to point B within a reasonable amount of time. I don't see how a trolley is going to fix it.

Yes, I get out. I work downtown. I TRY to shop downtown. I'd come down to more events if I could park anywhere nearby or get a bus down here on the weekends without standing at a stinky stop in the heat or cold for 30 minutes. I can't get other people to come downtown after hours for meals. I know downtown life has increased in vitality lately but it's not significant enough to warrant a massive and isolated investment like this. From what I've heard/read/been told, a lot of activity on the Square seems to be family oriented. How many families do you think are going to move into downtown when everything is focused on young professionals?

I'm sorry I'm not in touch with the UC student social activities. Their presence downtown is not obvious to me and the nightlife up in Clifton seems pretty steady on the rare occasion I get up there. I wasn't aware there was anything to draw them downtown these days and I'm surprised high end restaurants and stores would do that.


Based on your comments the reason it clear... you can't support the streetcar because you don't believe Downtown, OTR, Mt. Auburn, Corryville can or should be improved, especially since it doesn't reach your neighborhood. You don't see the city as being a desirable place for tourists. You don't think people in our two largest areas of employment might want to get back and forth without needing a car. And you don't trust elected officials to use their judgment and leadership to actually lead us towards something we can't do on our own.

Why do you hate Cincinnati?

Putting words in my mouth and insulting me isn't going to win me or other skeptics over. I don't hate Cincinnati. I moved here voluntarily. I think it has a lot of promise. But I am absolutely frustrated by this town. Diverting energy into the streetcar instead of fixing the problems we've already created is not the answer. We have proven decade after decade we don't know how to run public transport in this town. And we're supposed to have faith that the clowns in council are going to manage this properly? And figure out how to maintain it going forward?

I can't seem to find a copy of the study (why is it not available on the pro streetcar site?) but I reread an analysis by UC and frankly the holes in the study are disquieting. According to the analysis of the study: The calculations on financial benefit are over 35 years, something supporters keep leaving out. So these wonderful large numbers on economic impact may not amount to much annually. It's also based on certain assumptions of how citizens and business will respond, something unpredictable and easily affected by economic changes, such as the current downtrun. These assumptions are based on results in other cities but there is no way to prove the economic development in the other cities was solely or even primarily due to the streetcar. It DOES NOT take into account future annual operating costs, which could completely wipe out any supposed economic gain. And what's worse, it appears there has been no attempt by the city to investigate the economic benefits of alternative options.

How can you claim this is the best, most economicaly viable option when NO ONE is doing a study of other options? Where's the study that says the cost-benefit of more frequent bus service isn't close or better? Wouldn't investing in nicer bus stop coverings along the route also provide a benefit at a significantly lower cost? Wouldn't simply painting buildings and cleaning up infrastructure along the proposed route increase economic development along that coridor? These are improvements generally done along the streetcar routes, are they not?


It's fine with me that you don't support the concept, but it bothers me that you trivialize what the proposal is. It isn't a couple hundred million dollars so UC students can have some transportation downtown. It isn't so people can drive downtown and take a streetcar to Findlay market.

The concept is the defining of a downtown district, and a major, permanent investment in the infrastructure of that district.

I get that the HOPE is to define the downtown district and I agree that a streetcar COULD do that. I don't buy that it'll do it all by itself. I don't buy that it's the most cost effective way to do it. And I DO NOT believe that our current elected representatives are capable of seeing this through in a proper and frugal way.

[sirthought]

OK, you've come to your own conclusions on this.

I'd prefer to see a light rail/subway system that's more comprehensive, but I think this is sort of a now or never type of deal and hope the naysayers don't kill the chances of what could be a key step in developing the city's urban core at a critical time.

There have been Metro numbers included by OKI in the past. People could argue that is a better/cheaper option, but they are mostly people who don't ride the bus or wouldn't use something like this. Metro buses are heavily used, especially in the past couple years with gas prices, but it's not really the same kind of animal. There are multiple reasons why these things are a hit and one of them is that they are different than buses. If you don't see the benefits to this then we may never change.


Regarding events downtown/families/young professionals.
1) It's not all about families. We need to attract young professionals to bring in young talent and blood and a fun downtown will help do that. Plus, they will be parents one day so lets just get them here first. Families are moving into Downtown now, but this it's no surprise that mostly empty nesters and others not raising children are moving there. That's ok.

2) Most of the square's programs do target the 20-40 year old set, but we always see A LOT of families, and really...people of all ages. Check out Thursday night salsa or Friday rock bands and see how many little kids are dancing with the adults. It's great. Hundreds of people there.

But it's not all adult programing. The Saturday movie nights are pretty much all families. Saturday afternoon they have family programming. Plus there's kids programs at Cincinnati Children's Theater, Taft Museum, CAC, Lollipop Concerts at Music Hall, the library, etc. that would be nearby if you lived near the route.

3) We always park on the street (usually 6th street) and walk there. It's not hard to find a spot, except when the Reds are in town. When parking is tight it'd be great to have the streetcar to be able to park further away and ride to the square.

[Fred Garvin]

I have met Smitherman during some neighborhood outreach thingado. Assclown is putting it nicely.


Was this one of those rooftop shindigs?

[PM Thor]

I think that a major concern here is simply the perception of OTR, whether or not it is warranted. If you see a streetcar line that goes directly through the heart of OTR, do you honestly believe that the average citizen will ride that line to get from Clifton to downtown?

I know that if I had small children I would not be riding that line. It's not going to take years to change the perception of OTR, it's going to take decades, in my humble opinion. The application of a streetcar system in that area isn't going to be the catalyst to change it either, I believe.

I HATE dayton.

[Fred Garvin]

I think that a major concern here is simply the perception of OTR, whether or not it is warranted. If you see a streetcar line that goes directly through the heart of OTR, do you honestly believe that the average citizen will ride that line to get from Clifton to downtown?

I know that if I had small children I would not be riding that line. It's not going to take years to change the perception of OTR, it's going to take decades, in my humble opinion. The application of a streetcar system in that area isn't going to be the catalyst to change it either, I believe.

I HATE dayton.



I'd like to ride the Thousand Points of Blight route. I could see it spurring development in the area. In fact I'm already thinking of opening a boutique that sells Kevlar vests.

[GuyFawkes38]

I've taken streetcars in Rome and Amsterdam and enjoyed traveling on them (they are much, much more pleasant to ride than buses).

Still, why exactly does the tiny streetcar rout proposed cost about as much as the extensive commuter rail network proposed a few years back?

Why do streetcars cost so much? Is there not much competition in that market? Perhaps commuter trains could be a more effective use of funds.

[xeus]

out of business (http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090706/ENT01/90706016/Downtown+Oceanaire+closes)

We need a streetcar!

[GoMuskies]

I've eaten at the Oceanaire here in Boston. Thank God someone else was paying. $40 for lunch is pretty ridiculous. I can't see that place surviving in Cincinnati in ANY economic environment.

[xeus]

I've eaten at the Oceanaire here in Boston. Thank God someone else was paying. $40 for lunch is pretty ridiculous. I can't see that place surviving in Cincinnati in ANY economic environment.

You obviously don't understand the economic impact the streetcar will have.

[Kahns Krazy]

You obviously don't understand the economic impact the streetcar will have.

Oh how clever! I see what you did. You took one example and used it to poke fun at a whole concept. That hasn't been done since 87 did it yesterday, in an admitted ripoff of the last time you did it. You guys need some new material.

Okay, my turn!

Don't worry about the streetcars. Even if they do get built, there's going to be a height requirement of 48 inches, so neither you or 87 will be able to ride it anyway.

Hmm. I thought that was going to be more satisfying than it was. I guess you're used to hearing that though.

I don't believe anyone is pushing for the streetcar to be built now. The proponents are still trying to line up the multiple sources of funding and the substantial private investment commitments that would be required before it would make any sense for any substantial public funding to be allocated.

At this point, it's an idea. It is an idea that has been successful in other cities. Why someone would take the time to collect signatures to make the idea impossible is beyond me.

We've all seen how long the Banks has taken to get any kind of momentum. I don't understand the harm in a group looking toward the next idea for development.

[xeus]

Don't worry about the streetcars. Even if they do get built, there's going to be a height requirement of 48 inches, so neither you or 87 will be able to ride it anyway.



Really Kahns? A short joke? Between you and Cueto, I'm very disappointed. So much promise.

Maybe you can just explain how all this projected economic impact will happen, or point me to a source that can. Let's try that and see where it gets us.

Until then, I'll be forced to make sarcastic comments such as: "Hey guys, let's not go home just yet! Don't you know there's a trolley that take us up to the corner of Race and 14th? It's quick, fun, and easy!"

[Lamont Sanford]

What if said "streetcar" went to the West Side as well?! We could count on drudy and gladdenguy for their support then.

[blobfan]

...At this point, it's an idea. It is an idea that has been successful in other cities. Why someone would take the time to collect signatures to make the idea impossible is beyond me.

We've all seen how long the Banks has taken to get any kind of momentum. I don't understand the harm in a group looking toward the next idea for development.

We're not talking about someone. We're talking about Smitherman. He'll do anything to get his name in the paper anything to stop a project that isn't his idea. Short of handing out money to NAACP members and putting all light skinned people in jail, nothing will make that man happy.

As opposed as I am to the streetcar, I am more opposed to passing a law forcing a vote on public transit issues. That's just stupid.

[xeus]

Can anyone explain how the streetcar will bring billions of dollars in economic impact?

Also, does anyone want to go bar hopping in the West End this weekend, maybe after watching a few summer league games? Let's meet at Elm and Liberty.

[xeus]

I cut and pasted this directly from cincystreetcar.com:

Consider this hypothetical scenario. A husband and wife want to buy a condo downtown, own two cars, and have a budget of $200,000. Parking costs the developer $50,000; $150,000 covers the cost of the actual unit.

If you have a streetcar, you can get rid of one of those parking spaces. That would drop the $200,000 condo to $175,000. In addition that household would only have to pay upkeep on one automobile, saving around $5000 a year (gas, insurance, wear and tear, car payments) or $420 dollars a month that could be put towards the mortgage.

The couple can either have a $175,000 condo of about the same size and an extra $400 to spend ever month, or put the money saved towards the mortgage and afford and extra $50-60,000 worth of house.

I'm not even sure where to start with that.

[Kahns Krazy]

Instead of my large annual donation to Most Valuable Kids, I have chosen to donate to the Library this year. I hate to think of those elderly Mt. Washington residents having to walk all the way to the Anderson branch.


You obviously don't understand that an important part of the library experience is walking there.


Kahns Krazy shows his support at today's rally in Loveland:

http://cmsimg.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?NewTbl=1&Avis=AB&Dato=20090624&Kategori=NEWS01&Lopenr=906240802&Ref=PH&Item=1&MaxH=475&MaxW=485&Border=0


I would rather have a library than a trolley.

Any liberal trolley lovers want to take me on in that argument?


Only if it ran on rails, required tens of millions of dollars in unnecessary infrastructure, and was guaranteed to lose money.

I would also want make sure the trolley didn't stop at all so that the library patrons could experience the thrill of "chasing the trolley" which would be very similar to the much beloved feeling of "walking to the library."


Really Kahns? A short joke? Between you and Cueto, I'm very disappointed. So much promise.!"

I guess I'm not clear on exactly you took the high road here... was it after the 4th post where you mocked my walking to the library comment, or was it after the picture of the woman that you said was me? Just let me know so I don't offend your sensitivity again.

As for your example above, while I don't think that's the cornerstone of the development, I think it does represent a real value. I don't know that the numbers all work out that conveniently, but reducing the required parking space in an area increases the density of population and the value of the property.

Here's an article from Portland.
http://www.portlandstreetcar.org/pdf/development_200804_report.pdf

Here's a couple of key quotes.


The Portland Streetcar was initiated by the City of Portland to connect two major redevelopment
areas: 70 aces of abandoned rail yards and a contaminated brownfield site just north of
Downtown (the River District) with another 128 acres of largely underused or vacant industrial
land requiring environmental remediation at the opposite end of Downtown (the South
Waterfront).


I'm sure in 1996, the Portland version of you was running around making helpful comments like

Until then, I'll be forced to make sarcastic comments such as: "Hey guys, let's not go home just yet! Don't you know there's a trolley that take us up to the abandoned rail yards and contaminated brownfield site ? It's quick, fun, and easy!"

Today,
Where once there was a contaminated railyard, a new
neighborhood has emerged. New grocery stores, restaurants, galleries, shops and banks now
line the streets. Portland Streetcar goes through the heart of this area, stopping every two or
three blocks and providing high quality transit access for business and residents.

[blobfan]

Can anyone explain how the streetcar will bring billions of dollars in economic impact? ...
Nope. It's all speculation based on expected events based on what happend in other cities with streetcars. This economic development may or may not have come from the streetcar.

I find it highly suspect that while the streetcar site references the study, it doesn't link to it. At least not that I could find.


...If you have a streetcar, you can get rid of one of those parking spaces. That would drop the $200,000 condo to $175,000. In addition that household would only have to pay upkeep on one automobile, saving around $5000 a year (gas, insurance, wear and tear, car payments) or $420 dollars a month that could be put towards the mortgage...

That works only if you NEVER plan to leave the area near the streetcar. What are you supposed to do when you need to go elsewhere and your spouse has the car? OUR EXISITNG PUBLIC TRANSIT IS INADEQUATE. We won't see savings from reduced auto usage until it is fixed and that should be priority #1. Look at the map of Portland's system (http://trimet.org/pdfs/trimetsystemmap.pdf)and tell me ours is comparable. What's more, and pro-streetcar people seem to like to leave this out when bringing up Portland, Portland has a farefree zone to encourage ridership. They also have extensive bike paths and sidewalks for pedestrians and have experimented with carfree zones.

Force people to give up their cars and offer them free transit and the results are predictable. But a short look into the carfree zones shows communities abandoning them because the money tends to go with the cars.

[sirthought]

Xeus,

If you can't see how it would bring in more businesses, jobs, residents, and tax revenue then don't worry about it. You'd never enjoy it anyway. But there are plenty of places online to google it if you tried.




Smitherman is now saying those fighting his initiative are "Jim Crow." Check it out for yourself here: http://www.naacpcincinnati.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=245&Itemid=42 What an a**.

This Anti-Progress Amendment will cost Cincinnati jobs and put the city at a competitive disadvantage by impeding the city's ability to develop our regional infrastructure. If we have to vote on every idea they want to put forward then we'll be in a similar situation as California where nothing is getting done anymore without an expensive campaign and election.

[Kahns Krazy]

I don't pretend that the magic solution is to drop in a streetcar, and the success that Portland has enjoyed will automatically happen here, but I'm certain that if Cincinnati as a city continues to shoot down development ideas, or if Smitherman is successful, make them illegal, development will never happen.

The renovation of the fountain square area required the investment of millions of dollars, a substantial portion of it from private sources. The impact around the area is substantial. New restaurants, shops, bars, events on the square, etc. I believe it's possible that the Portland success can be replicated.

I also found this list of the projects that comprise the $3.5 billion private investment in the Portland streetcar area. http://www.portlandstreetcar.org/pdf/development_200804_project_list.pdf

[Kahns Krazy]

...

That works only if you NEVER plan to leave the area near the streetcar. What are you supposed to do when you need to go elsewhere and your spouse has the car? OUR EXISITNG PUBLIC TRANSIT IS INADEQUATE. We won't see savings from reduced auto usage until it is fixed and that should be priority #1. Look at the map of Portland's system (http://trimet.org/pdfs/trimetsystemmap.pdf)and tell me ours is comparable. ....


Let's see. We're are comparing our existing transit system to Portland's existing transit system? No, I agree, they are not comparable. That's exactly what I think can be addressed. I'd love to see the streetcar combined with a light rail system that stretches into the suburbs, into Kentucky and to the airport. We have the population to support it, if the population gets behind it.

[xeus]

Xeus,

If you can't see how it would bring in more businesses, jobs, residents, and tax revenue then don't worry about it. You'd never enjoy it anyway. But there are plenty of places online to google it if you tried.



I wasn't able to find much in-depth information from googling. If you can suggest a link, I'd apreciate it. I'm trying to become informed on the issue.

[xeus]

Let's be very clear that I am opposed to the streetcar but not necessarily in favor of what Chris Finney is proposing. I have not read the proposal that he and Smitherman are behind. In general, I am opposed to charter amendments on specific issues.

[blobfan]

Also from the Portland Streetcar site:

"Like many other cities, Portland is growing in population and is proactively looking for ways to promote economic development while managing growth."
--This shows streetcars channel existing development, not that they create it out of whole cloth which is how the proposed Cincy streetcar is being sold (if you build it, development will come)

"The streetcar, limited parking and excellent pedestrian amenities have combined to create a new urban living option in Portland."
--Again, the streetcar IN AND OF ITSELF will not create a vibrant downtown. It needs to be part of a coordinated plan, not the first piece in a vague one.

It goes on to discuss how a Dev't Agreement for the rail and brownfield areas was integral to the project, touting the benefits of working with one single developer.
--We don't have one single developer lined up for both ends of the streetcar and I haven't heard about plans to outline the responsibilities of developor and local government. All I've seen are vague references to "lining up private funding." If we start this without a tangible plan, the city (read taxpayers) could end up on the hook for the entire cost.

From the beginning I've thought Portland is not the right city to look to when trying to determine how things will play out in Cincinnati. It is too dissimilar. San Francisco is probably the worst as they are dealing with a geographically confined area and a LONG history of public transit. I was there recently and I can tell you most of the people on the streetcars were tourists. Locals took vehicles that ran on rubber tires.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

I was there recently and I can tell you most of the people on the streetcars were tourists. Locals took vehicles that ran on rubber tires.

Very true. But look at all the businesses along the streetcar route. I also believe they are expanding the line because of the potential revenue from more businesses

[blobfan]

Let's see. We're are comparing our existing transit system to Portland's existing transit system? No, I agree, they are not comparable. That's exactly what I think can be addressed. I'd love to see the streetcar combined with a light rail system that stretches into the suburbs, into Kentucky and to the airport. We have the population to support it, if the population gets behind it.

My contention is you can't have one without the other. You can't just build the streetcar, make vague references to a greater plan that might some day happen, and expect the money to be well-spent.

That doesn't mean we should hamstring ourselves by adding an ammendment to the charter forcing a vote on the issue. Again, my fear is the issue fails and our fearless leaders take that as a vote of confidence, which it would not be.

[blobfan]

Very true. But look at all the businesses along the streetcar route

Actually, once you get a couple blocks away from Market street, I didn't notice any more business on that route than on the others. In fact, at some points it was very quiet and residential, basically a big hole between two active points. I took public transit almost the entire week I was there.

And I have yet to see proof that the streetcar alone is causing development. There's a whole lot of infrastructure improvements that happen at the same time, not to mention the extra attention to the area. Let's invest a little more in prettying up the route first and see if that brings business.

[xeus]

I just wish I could get some answers to my questions about the economic development projections, and what the opportunity costs of this investment would be.

I also wonder why it's so critical to link Clifton to OTR. I realize that will be good for the drug trade, but will it really drive development?

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

And I have yet to see proof that the streetcar alone is causing development. .

The theory is it has to do the with the fixed route. And if businesses see the rail down on a street, they'll know that's a permanent route that will have people passing by seven days a week. Buses, while cheaper, can be on one street today and another tomorrow.

There are successful streetcars and unsuccessful ones. But it seems like the trend of the cities in the US is to go back to Public Transportation (with gas prices, traffic, smog, highway maintenance costs all on the rise, etc).

Tons of cities are asking the same questions as Cincinnati. 33, to be precise, are proposing streetcars.

http://www.houstontomorrow.org/livability/story/streetcars-making-a-comeback-in-us/

[Kahns Krazy]

I just wish I could get some answers to my questions about the economic development projections, and what the opportunity costs of this investment would be.

I also wonder why it's so critical to link Clifton to OTR. I realize that will be good for the drug trade, but will it really drive development?

Ha ha ha! You are so witty. I agree with you now. Let's not do anything. I bet that will be better. We can all move out to the burbs with 87 and pretend downtown doesn't exist. That worked like a charm in Detroit.

Blob, I agree that there needs to be wayyyyyy more to the plan than what exists today before it is viable. That doesn't mean it isn't viable.

This may be the most hijacked thread of all time. I now return us to the quote that originally started this mess:


Mr. President, it is predicted that the unemployment rates for African Americans in the City of Cincinnati will hit 25-30% in 2009. The City's African American population is 45%. Therefore, every 2 out of 3 African Americans in the City of Cincinnati will be unemployed come 2010.


Sign me up for whatever program this guy is in favor of.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

I just wish I could get some answers to my questions about the economic development projections, and what the opportunity costs of this investment would be.

I also wonder why it's so critical to link Clifton to OTR. I realize that will be good for the drug trade, but will it really drive development?

The route is clifton to OTR and eventually NKY (because Covington wants on board bad) because that route connects key attractions and also a ridiculous amount of jobs along that route (all but 2 Class A office buildings in Cincinnati are within a 3 block radius of the line). It will connect The center of Downtown/Fountain square - The Banks/stadiums - Aronoff/Contemporary Arts Center - Gateway Corridor - Findlay Market - Library back to Fountain Square. Thats just phase 1. The next phases would be up to Clifton and down to NKY.

I know the casino Luken is proposing on broadway commons would be about 1.8 miles round trip from the banks, but it would be connected on the route if it gets voter approval.

The potential for Cincinnati to be relevant again is all there. We have the fortune 500 companies, the beatiful landscape, Cheap cost of living compared to other cities. We just need to figure out a way to get the core of the city back on track. I think streetcars aren't the cure all either, but will help in the grand scheme of things towards development, repopulation, and helping crime rates go down. There is a lot of development going on downtown with condos, hotels, the banks, queen city tower etc.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

On a side note, " A University of Cincinnati study commissioned by gambling proponents estimates the four casinos - including one in Cincinnati - that could be legalized by Ohio voters this fall would pump $11 billion into the state economy and create more than 34,000 jobs over the next five years"

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090707/BIZ01/907080313/Study++Casinos+would+create+34K+jobs

[blobfan]

The theory is it has to do the with the fixed route. And if businesses see the rail down on a street, they'll know that's a permanent route that will have people passing by seven days a week. Buses, while cheaper, can be on one street today and another tomorrow...

And that's my problem. It is all theory and conjecture and correlation. There is no more reason to think the streetcar will bring any more money into the community than keeping the Bengals here has done. None. Many of the arguments are so similar that my skin crawls.

Let's not pretend Cincinnati is doing ANY development successfully. We've managed to screw everything up. Hell, I can't even make headway on improvements on my teeny tiny house because every roadblock traversed means 2 more in my path. And it's not like I'm going major rebuilding. We're talking a deck and a wall. Can't get it done. Why? Because the permit and development process in the city stinks from start to finish.

I want to see council finally create that one-stop-shop for development so many of them championed a decade ago. I want to see them make a few more steps forward on the Banks and I want to see them and the citizens of this area make a real commitment to improving public transit and creating a more walkable community. Money will be better spent improving roads and sidewalks to increase pedestrian traffic and and bike paths. Money would be better spent on streetscaping downtown and upgrading shelters along high traffic bus routes. All these things will give us a surer and more immediate return on our investment than the streetcar. Until the ball is already rolling elsewhere, putting money into a streetcar is the equivalent of pouring it into a money pit that has the password to your bank account. It takes whatever you put in and keeps withdrawing more.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Understandable. This theory of rail bringing development is not just some uneducated guess though. Its brought about from previous study and ratios from successful streetcar systems.

The city is trying. Things may not be as smooth or fast as you or I would like, but at least they are making an effort. The new fountain square, the banks, queen city tower phase two, all the condos, the rehabbed buildings in OTR, Riverfront Park. There has been a lot the city has accomplished.

We can't just say " Cincinnati will never do this because ____. Or say Cincinnati will never be a major city. Or they will find a way to mess it up." We have to bring back the core. Somehow someway. Great strides are being made, but we need to change the mentality of this city because it really does have the potential to explode once it gets some things under control (Crime mainly). The question is how do we repopulate the city? It's not any one thing that will do it. It will take numerous projects and unfortunately some money.

At this point, I haven't heard many other alternatives to this streetcar project. I've heard the timing is off, but when is the timing ever perfect for anything?

I've heard mixed results on the streetcar. Works unbelievably well in some cities, and some cities its faltered. Its not a sure thing. Nothing in transportation is. The Federal Highway Trust Fund was bailed out in late 2008 to the tune of $8 billion because the interstate highways are not paying for themselves. The only sure thing is that Gas prices, traffic, smog, and highway maintenance costs will continue to rise. I think public transportation will be a big part of the future and the streetcars can be a foundation for that while bringing in development. Don't get me wrong, its definitely a risk. And i'm not completely sold 100% on streetcars. i'm a huge light rail advocate. But from what I hear the feds will fund half of the cost, while private investors and TIF's will fund another large chunk.

[XU 87]

Ha ha ha! You are so witty. I agree with you now. Let's not do anything. I bet that will be better. We can all move out to the burbs with 87 and pretend downtown doesn't exist. That worked like a charm in Detroit.



Kahn's, I've tried to stay out of this discussion today but, for whatever reason, you keep bringing my name up. But for what it's worth, since I work downtown, I probably spend more waking hours here (I'm at work right now) than I do at my cushy home way out in in the suburbs.

But your living in Oakley certainly gives you that inner city feel as opposed to my isolation way out in Anderson.

But let's give this a rest. We're talking about streetcars after all.

[blobfan]

Understandable. This theory of rail bringing development is not just some uneducated guess though. Its brought about from previous study and ratios from successful streetcar systems.
I'm uncomfortable watching the city spend $100M of taxpayer money on an educated guess. Not to mention operating expenses which no one appears brave enough to even attempt to estimate.


At this point, I haven't heard many other alternatives to this streetcar project. I've heard the timing is off, but when is the timing ever perfect for anything?
I guess my suggestions are falling on deaf ears. Fix existing transit first then add the streetcar as phase two. Spruce up streetscapes and streamline the development process first so when we do build something like a streetcar, business aren't discouraged by the blight and red tape.

I do not agree that it is a foundation to build upon. All the studies I can find give correlational data that streetcars bring development. I've seen no example where a streetcar alone brings it and that's the plan I see on the table.

[Kahns Krazy]

Kahn's, I've tried to stay out of this discussion today but, for whatever reason, you keep bringing my name up. But for what it's worth, since I work downtown, I probably spend more waking hours here (I'm at work right now) than I do at my cushy home way out in in the suburbs.

But your living in Oakley certainly gives you that inner city feel as opposed to my isolation way out in Anderson.

But let's give this a rest. We're talking about streetcars after all.

I brought your name into it because you dragged the library thing back into it. Don't start shit, then say "give it a rest". I didn't want to "give it a start", you did.

[XU 87]

Sorry, I didn't know that libraries and streetcars were such emotional issues with you.

[GoMuskies]

On a side note, " A University of Cincinnati study commissioned by gambling proponents estimates the four casinos - including one in Cincinnati - that could be legalized by Ohio voters this fall would pump $11 billion into the state economy and create more than 34,000 jobs over the next five years"

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090707/BIZ01/907080313/Study++Casinos+would+create+34K+jobs

Let's get the casinos in and forget about the damn streetcar.

[Kahns Krazy]

Sorry, I didn't know that libraries and streetcars were such emotional issues with you.

Well, the library is. It is one of the primary programs I support. You both just kept pushing my buttons on that one, then got all indignant when you finally got a rise out of me. What did you expect?

The streetcar really isn't. Smitherman is an annoying jackass, but that's as emotional as I get about it. I don't really expect that the streetcar will ever become a reality and if it did, I'd share many of blobfan's legitimate concerns. However, I enjoy people thinking outside the box about ideas for development. Maybe productive discussion on the streetcar or some other concept will prompt a better idea.

Edit: (Now that I look back, I do realize it was far more Xeus than you, it just happened to be your post in this thread. I lumped you both together, which I can now see why that might have been a bit unexpected for you. Blame your cohort. )

[Stonebreaker]

Not that this is groundbreaking news to anyone who knows the guy, but I came across this while reading up on the NAACP's efforts to get some rediculous charter amendment on the ballot this fall.

This is from a letter Smitherman wrote back in January. You can read the whole thing Here (http://www.wcpo.com/news/local/story/Smitherman-Writes-Anti-Streetcar-Letter-to-Obama/gJBSK6qMTU2gqTip2Xzv-Q.cspx)



This is from a letter written to the effin' President of the United States, and copied to the Mayor and all the local media outlets.

I think if I were going to take the time to write a letter to the President and copy the local media, that I would proofread it enough to make sure there were no idiotic statements in there. 25% unemployment + 45% of the population = 2/3rds unemployed? What?

Keep in mind when you see the anti-streetcar bill on the ballot this fall, that this is the smarts of the guy behind it.

I'm trying to figure out one of my three black friends will have a job in the near future. I need to give them a call, and pronto.

[PM Thor]

Understandable. This theory of rail bringing development is not just some uneducated guess though. Its brought about from previous study and ratios from successful streetcar systems.

The city is trying. Things may not be as smooth or fast as you or I would like, but at least they are making an effort. The new fountain square, the banks, queen city tower phase two, all the condos, the rehabbed buildings in OTR, Riverfront Park. There has been a lot the city has accomplished.

We can't just say " Cincinnati will never do this because ____. Or say Cincinnati will never be a major city. Or they will find a way to mess it up." We have to bring back the core. Somehow someway. Great strides are being made, but we need to change the mentality of this city because it really does have the potential to explode once it gets some things under control (Crime mainly). The question is how do we repopulate the city? It's not any one thing that will do it. It will take numerous projects and unfortunately some money.

At this point, I haven't heard many other alternatives to this streetcar project. I've heard the timing is off, but when is the timing ever perfect for anything?
I've heard mixed results on the streetcar. Works unbelievably well in some cities, and some cities its faltered. Its not a sure thing. Nothing in transportation is. The Federal Highway Trust Fund was bailed out in late 2008 to the tune of $8 billion because the interstate highways are not paying for themselves. The only sure thing is that Gas prices, traffic, smog, and highway maintenance costs will continue to rise. I think public transportation will be a big part of the future and the streetcars can be a foundation for that while bringing in development. Don't get me wrong, its definitely a risk. And i'm not completely sold 100% on streetcars. i'm a huge light rail advocate. But from what I hear the feds will fund half of the cost, while private investors and TIF's will fund another large chunk.

This is where it becomes a hot button issue for me. Right now is THE WORST time to try start up projects with city money. During a major recession the most basic services should be the primary worry for a city, any city. (they say Capital money cannot be used for city operating costs, but that is BS, it's been done before, will be done again)

We are looking at the loss of 200 police officers, and over 100 firefighters, but the politicians are pushing a project like streetcars? It's time to go cut projects to the core, save money wherever possible, assure safety services, and argue over the likes of streetcars when money is more readily available.

Maybe it's because people don't understand that there will be firehouses closed, and beat cops will be lost. I wonder the response will be when the firehouse in Hyde Park square is the first one on the chopping block, while streetcars run a circuit right through OTR, an OTR with a substantial loss in police presence no less.

Dammit.

I HATE dayton.

[sirthought]

This site has links to a good number of studies done on Cincinnati and streetcars.

http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/2009/07/20/studies-and-reports-on-the-cincinnati-streetcar/

Just putting it up here for people who'd like to read the reports.

[GuyFawkes38]

I was thinking about the streetcar a bit and I do see the logic behind it.

As someone else pointed out on this thread, a good chunk of all the jobs in the region lie in between Clifton (with all the hospitals and university) and Covington/Newport. If your a nurse and work at University Hospital, you can live in a downtown or Covington apartment and jump on the streetcar to work everyday.

Of course, a streetcar built in downtown and OTR without the intention of expanding to Clifton and N. Kentucky is absolutely worthless.

[sirthought]

Douglas Bolton, Publisher of the Cincinnati Business Courier, today is the latest to publicly support Cincinnati’s openness to passenger rail transportation, and warn of the devastating effects of the Anti-Progress, Anti-Rail Charter Amendment in November. Read his article to see why he is another important Cincinnatian for Progress.

http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2009/08/03/editorial1.html

[GuyFawkes38]

I don't really understand why youngish people in their 20's and 30's get so excited about the prospects of public transit on rails. I imagine it comes down to sex. Young people want to be able to both get drunk and get back to their place of residence without driving. And young people like the concept of transporting with a group of the opposite sex.

But I think the big point is that good public transport does attract people to a community. The idea of living in Clifton and transporting on a streetcar to work in downtown excites a lot of people.

[sirthought]

Enquirer 8/8/09:

'Poison Pill' amendment is about less, not 'more'
A funny thing happened to Cincinnati on the way to the streetcar-funny, but certainly not amusing.

A proposed city charter amendment on this November's ballot has not only altered the debate over the city's plan for a $185 million, riverfront-to-Uptown fixed-rail streetcar route, it has all but obliterated it. It has sucked the air out of any substantive discussion about such a system's actual merits.

Instead, public debate - no doubt as the amendment's creators, avowed streetcar foes, intended - has focused on an acrimonious disagreement about what its wording actually means and what its effect would be:

Is it about the streetcar? Or is it about more than the streetcar?

Unfortunately, its proponents' rhetorical sleight of hand continues to divert attention from the real answer: It is about less. Far less. And Cincinnatians ought to recognize it for what it is.

It is about less because it is DECEPTIVE in its language and intent.
The Charter amendment, supported by forces headed by the Cincinnati NAACP and the Coalition Opposed to Additional Spending & Taxes (COAST), is a classic example of lawyerly weasel-wording. It proposes to "prevent the expenditure of monies by the city for right-of-way acquisition or improvements for passenger-rail transportation (e.g., trolley or streetcar)" without a public vote.

Christopher Smitherman, Cincinnati NAACP president, says it's meant to target the streetcar, but was written broadly in case city leaders decide to give the project a different name, like "trolley" - or perhaps his personal, derisive favorite, "choo-choo train."

That's nonsense. Christopher Finney, co-founder of COAST, wrote the ballot language. He is an attorney. He knew what he was doing. He could have made it clear and specific to this proposed project.

Instead, he fuzzed it with an "e.g." and widened its scope to affect any city participation even peripherally related to the Eastern Corridor project, the Cincinnati-Columbus-Cleveland "3C" passenger-rail proposal, a regional commuter light-rail plan or any other such project in the foreseeable future. The effect is to divert and distract, to sow confusion.

A "Yes" vote on the Charter amendment effectively means "No" on the streetcar, but its faux-populist "let the people vote" cachet might draw support from people who otherwise might favor a streetcar. A "No" on the amendment, on the other hand, doesn't necessarily translate into streetcar support.

More deception: Finney claims that virtually every other city that has built a streetcar has put it to a public vote. But that's apples and oranges. Most were votes on new taxes or bond issues to fund a system-not a vote on any "right-of-way acquisition or construction of improvements," which would leave Cincinnati hamstrung, in an unenviable class by itself.

And as Cincinnatians for Progress, a group formed to oppose the ballot language, points out, a number of other cities did build their streetcar systems without a public vote.

Hamilton County Commissioner David Pepper is right: This amendment is a "poison pill," exactly as its proponents intend. In selling it to the public, they want to have it both ways. In fact, they want to have it three ways.

Smitherman says it's an anti-streetcar measure, and COAST's Web site urges residents to vote Yes to "Kill the streetcar!"

COAST's blog constantly refers to it as an "anti-boondoggle Charter amendment," citing a range of development projects it could or should have stopped.

And yet Finney told The Enquirer recently: "The only thing that we're having this November is a referendum on the power of the people vs. the power of the legislature."

So which is it? This deception doesn't even rise to the level of "smoke and mirrors." Mirrors would denote some sort of reflection. This is just smoke.

It is about less because it is DIVISIVE for our community.
The campaign in favor of this amendment is effectively tapping into deep-seated, long-standing resentments based on race, class and neighborhood.

Its proponents raise issues of trust - specifically, a lack of trust by people who feel city leaders have mishandled major projects, and have left their neighborhoods and communities out of the economic benefits. They cite, with some validity, a litany of projects - the Bengals stadium, the Transit Center under Second Street, the Banks project and more - as examples. Their concerns should not be minimized, but they shouldn't paralyze future actions either.

The jury's still out on the ultimate value of those projects, but they provide convenient flashpoints for the pro-amendment campaign - which, in turn, gives not only streetcar opponents, but anybody with a gripe against the city, a focal point for their displeasure.

Some of these concerns, particularly in the African-American community, have validity. In this struggling economy, people need jobs, and they need transportation to and from those jobs. They don't see an immediate payoff from a streetcar system. Smitherman implies that the project is taking resources that could be directed toward immediate job creation.

In reality, the streetcar project would use dedicated capital dollars that cannot be used in the general fund for regular city programs. And it wouldn't start at all unless the city receives at least $60 million in federal funds.

But it's hard for streetcar supporters to make those distinctions clear. Opponents aren't buying it. This is one reason why we advocated recently that the city put the streetcar project on the back burner.

The message on streetcars is not getting through, especially with all the problems the city faces - huge budget deficits, pending layoffs of city employees, problems with the pension system and other city programs.

City Council's penchant for public-relations gaffes - such as proposing to spend $3.2 million on recycling bins a day before announcing job layoffs - doesn't help ease divisions, either.

The city must get its act together. Cincinnati leaders must develop a smart plan, articulated well to the public, not only for a streetcar but other investments that will help residents now and later. But that's difficult in this environment, during a council/mayoral election year, amid all the rhetoric surrounding the charter amendment.

It doesn't help that Finney calls Cincinnati a "shrinking" city that needs to "get back to basics"-whatever that means.

Let's be clear: This amendment fits into what COAST proudly declares is its larger, long-term agenda to block any "additional spending and taxes," regardless of its economic worth. It is a formula that would ignore the city's pressing needs for more investment, resources, growth, development and long-term job creation.

Supporters of the anti-rail amendment, in effect, are trying to force the city into a rancorous discussion about how to divide the existing pie, rather than how to make the pie bigger for everybody.

It is about less because it is DANGEROUS to representative democracy.
The amendment would further us on an unwise path to a "government by referendum" that lessens the effectiveness of the representatives we elect.

We already see the effects growing in our area, on the state level and elsewhere in the country. Putting "everything" up to a general vote, as some proponents actually advocate, makes important public policies vulnerable to high-tech, high-decibel demagoguery, and makes a mockery of the system that the founders of this nation and state crafted.

We are a representative democracy, not a direct democracy. The initiative system exists to give the people a safety valve, a direct say where needed. But it can't extend to every possible issue of consequence.

That's what we elect representatives to do. We grant them the power and responsibility to study issues intensely, discuss them thoroughly, craft sound plans and forge reasonable compromises - not to simply execute the results of an up-or-down vote. If they fail, we vote them out.

City Councilman Chris Bortz, a leading streetcar advocate, says it best: "I think there's a real slippery slope here, a dangerous trend. And we only need to look to California to see what happens when you end up in a situation where you're voting by referendum and you're governing that way. When you hand it off to special interests, which is ultimately who ends up on either side of many of these ballot initiatives, then it becomes all about rhetoric, and it can lose the concrete facts that are underlying the decision-making."

Lawmakers become less responsive, less accountable to the people if every significant decision is taken from them.

The proposed charter amendment is fraught with economic peril as well. For example, the 3C proposals are already rife with potential conflicts over the location of a terminal in the Cincinnati area, its effect on neighborhoods, the funding mechanisms, and more. The amendment's passage would only complicate all those issues.

Debate over the streetcar ought to focus on issues such as this: whether the anticipated economic development along the route, and increased tax revenues to the city from that development, would sufficiently outweigh the expenses of operating and perhaps subsidizing the system.

But, as worded, the amendment clearly would delay and confuse any move the city made, however small, regarding rail transit. In an economic environment in which leaders need to act quickly and smartly on development to make sure our area isn't left behind in the dust, that's dangerous.

Deceptive. Divisive. Dangerous: Three "D"s that amount to an F in our book.
This proposed charter amendment is enabled by fears, fueled by resentments and driven by cynical agendas.

It deserves to fail-because Cincinnatians should not settle for less.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Good find sir...

Smitherman now is working on getting signatures for a 3rd charter amendment. This one plans for a mayor recall and Smitherman is hoping it will be on the ballot in 2010. Its the start of a never ending cycle with these guys. Its about time the enquirer stepped up and started reporting on the the deceptive and vague wording, and how charter happy these guys are getting.

[PM Thor]

This sucks. I can't support this CA, but I want streetcars to die. Do I mortgage the future of this city simply based on what they are doing now, which I disagree with?

Again, this sucks. Smitherman sucks donkeys.

I HATE dayton.

[sirthought]

PM Thor,

You can vote against the amendment and still voice your concern to the legislature that you don't approve of the street car plan.

My personal view is that I believe a transportation system will do more to help our city's concerns in the long run, but I also believe they could and should have more comprehensive plan that effects more of the region. If enough people ask for a better plan, maybe they put things on hold and work for that. But this amendment goes too far.

Of course, you might disagree with ever spending money on public transportation. I really can't understand that. It'll bring in jobs, help develop businesses along the route, reduce crime, and enhance an area in a way that would make more people want to live around there.

But as stated in the Enquirer piece, this money isn't effecting the general operating budget for the city. "...the streetcar project would use dedicated capital dollars that cannot be used in the general fund for regular city programs."

And OK, you disagree with Mallory and his plan. But you really think its going to make the city worse than what we're experiencing now?

[GuyFawkes38]

yeah, this might be Thor bait.

I just heard a couple firemen on the radio heavily criticizing the prospect of financial cuts in Cincinnati to firefighting services.

The whole thing rubbed me the wrong way. It came across as threatening ("fund us, or you might die). Also, it came across as insulting to city workers outside of the police and fire services ("do we really need to water our public golf courses when people might die").

Beyond that, I don't buy the argument that fire and police services should dogmatically be immune from cuts. During good economic times it's more than likely that police and fire services become bloated in a similar manner as businesses in the private sector. It's reasonable to take a hard look and remedy such inefficiencies in times like these.

[Kahns Krazy]

Smitherman is a cancer. I wonder if I can propose a charter amendment banning that guy from the city.

[boozehound]

yeah, this might be Thor bait.

I just heard a couple firemen on the radio heavily criticizing the prospect of financial cuts in Cincinnati to firefighting services.

The whole thing rubbed me the wrong way. It came across as threatening ("fund us, or you might die). Also, it came across as insulting to city workers outside of the police and fire services ("do we really need to water our public golf courses when people might die").

Beyond that, I don't buy the argument that fire and police services should dogmatically be immune from cuts. During good economic times it's more than likely that police and fire services become bloated in a similar manner as businesses in the private sector. It's reasonable to take a hard look and remedy such inefficiencies in times like these.

Holy crap, I agree with GuyFawkes!

While I will generally pretty much always support more money for police and firefighters (and Jails, for that matter) I don't think that they should necessarily be immune from all cuts.

[Snipe]

I think that all government funding at every level should be done on the level of a pie chart. Instead of funding dollars for specific programs, legislators should have to debate what percentage of the budget that a specific program will get. Based upons last years total take, maybe police and firefighters get a certain percentage.

I think that would be useful because it puts competeing interests against one another. It is true that when you give a dollar to the Coroner's office, that dollar cannot be spent on the police or on schools. Or if you give a lot of money to schools, you can't use those dollars for libraries and parks. We have several competing interests. What we need is the real fight among them. I would advocate a law saying that the government should balance budgets every year. Maybe you could make an exception for economic downturns, but you would have to build in a surplus during economic expansions.

We also need to stop government pensions and put people into 401K style accounts. When politicians increase pension benefits they are increasing your taxes, but it isn't reflected in your tax rate. It is a tax that will be paid by your children or someone else. For that politician, the tax is paid by another administration. They can buy certain constituants without raising taxes, even though they are committing future generations to massive obligations.

Check out this article from San Diego, which has about gone bankrupt and can't meet their pension obligations. And this was from 2006:

Six-figure salaries soar in city work force (http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060312/news_lz1e12demaio.html)


Have you heard about the fire captain in the city of San Diego who made $242,138 in one year? How about the city lifeguard who made $138,787? It's all true – and if you thought the city of San Diego's pensions were generous, wait until you see how much some city workers are being paid.

That gives a new definition to public servant. I am not sure your House Representative makes that much. Maybe they aren't servants. Maybe we are the servants. To continue:


City employee membership in what the institute calls the “$100,000 Club” has skyrocketed over the past three years. In the midst of the city's financial crisis, the number of city employees earning $100,000 or more a year has climbed from 483 in 2003, to 644 in 2004, and hit 753 in 2005. That's a 56 percent increase in three short years.

What's worse, when comp overtime is factored into total compensation, the number of city employees receiving net compensation value of more than $100,000 a year jumps to 955. That's in a city with a total known work force of 10,700.

Almost 10% of the civil servants made the 100k club, with many going way over. That is impressive. I need to get a government job. And you know the benefit package beats the market, and the holidays and sick days can't even compare when you compare it to small business.

Check out this article from this year:

Pension spikes: Lavish retirement pay is drawing closer scrutiny (http://www.publicceo.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=466:pension-spikes-lavish-retirement-pay-is-drawing-closer-scrutiny&catid=151:local-governments-publicceo-exclusive&Itemid=20)


The San Ramon fire chief, Craig Bowen, had a final salary of about $221,000, but he retired last December at age 51 with an annual pension of $284,000.

The Moraga Orinda fire chief, Peter Nowicki, had a final salary of $185,000, but he retired in January at age 50 with an annual pension of $241,000.

The two chiefs are new and extreme examples of an old problem.

Public employee pensions are often based on the highest annual total pay received on the job. A variety of ways can be used to “spike” pay shortly before retirement, thus boosting lifelong pensions that increase annually with inflation.

The biggest of the spikes for the chiefs was getting paid for unused vacation time, said the Contra Costa Times, which revealed the generous pensions for Bowen and Nowicki earlier this year.

Nowicki drew national attention last week in a story in the Wall Street Journal. After retiring, he went back to work for the fire department as a consultant at an annual salary of $176,000 on top of his $241,000 pension.

“People point to me as a poster child for pension spiking, but I did not make these rules,” Nowicki told the Journal.

Apart from the absurdity of producing pensions that can exceed salaries, critics say spiked pensions are an unfunded burden for retirement systems. Their costs have not been covered by the standard career-long contributions from employers and employees.

Here you have a firefighter drawing $417,000 a year. Granted, he is no ordinary fire fighter. He was a chief, and now he is a consultant. He was 50 when he retired, so you can expect that he can do this easily for another 10 to 15 years. After that, he will just have to suffer on his $241,000 pension.

Think about $417,000 a year. That is executive pay for a fire fighter. And honestly, I don't care how good you are at fighting fires, I can get someone to take that job for less than half the price.

And this guy is 50 years old. He could live to 85. And by then another generation will be funding his pension dollars without getting any benefit for paying him on the public dole. The pension games they play are really just deficit spending postponed to future generations. They act like they fund them but they don't. I am 40 years old. I expect to live to 70. In the next 30 years, I expect several state pension systems to either go bankrupt or be taken up by our already bankrupt federal government (which doesn't solve anything). California could go bankrupt within five years. Illinois may have the worst funded pension system in the nation. I give them ten years before a federal bailout or death.

A 401K system is a defined contribution system. You know how much it costs to fund your policeman's retirement system because you already paid it this year. What we have now is a defined benefit system, where we promise to pay a certain portion of salary (that can be gamed at the end), and we don't really know what the future obligations will be.

The system that we have now is fucked, and it is going to fail like everything else.

It is all going to fail. From the federal to the state to the local. We haven't hit bottom yet, it is going to be a massive collapse and one big giant fail.

But I like the Muskie's chances.

[GuyFawkes38]

I was just reading through this thread again and I stumbled on this:



Maybe it's because people don't understand that there will be firehouses closed, and beat cops will be lost. I wonder the response will be when the firehouse in Hyde Park square is the first one on the chopping block, while streetcars run a circuit right through OTR, an OTR with a substantial loss in police presence no less.

I've always that the Hyde Park firehouse doesn't look very functional and that it would be great if it was converted into a high class bar/restaurant. The bar scene in Hyde Park square sucks and the restaurant scene isn't much better. I think a lot of people would appreciate a conversion.


I like Snipes vision of city funding. Sounds much more reasonable than the chaotic pursuit of funds by every department which is now occurring.

[blobfan]

This sucks. I can't support this CA, but I want streetcars to die. Do I mortgage the future of this city simply based on what they are doing now, which I disagree with?

Again, this sucks. Smitherman sucks donkeys.

I HATE dayton.
I'm with you Thor. I'm afraid that if this is voted down that City Clowncil and the Mayor will take it as direct support for the streetcar. Regardless, I can't vote for it. It's the type of thing that should be managed outside of the charter.

...But as stated in the Enquirer piece, this money isn't effecting the general operating budget for the city. "...the streetcar project would use dedicated capital dollars that cannot be used in the general fund for regular city programs." ...
Sorry but I am so sick of that argument. Tax dollars are tax dollars are tax dollars. Just because it's capital dollars not general operating budget doesn't mean it's magic money that can be spent without consequence. And where do you think the money is going to come from to make up the annual operating deficit that this trolley will surely have? Anyone that tells you it won't is lying.

Smitherman is a cancer. I wonder if I can propose a charter amendment banning that guy from the city.
I'll sign your petition.

[Kahns Krazy]

I was just reading through this thread again and I stumbled on this:



I've always that the Hyde Park firehouse didn't look very functional and that it would be great if it was converted into a high class bar/restaurant. The bar scene in Hyde Park square sucks and the restaurant scene isn't much better. I think a lot of people would appreciate a conversion..

I know you just make statements out of your ass, but seriously, how can you claim that the restaurant scene in Hyde Park Square sucks? There's a high end steakhouse, an upscale American, a burger place, a sushi place, a diner, a California style place, complete with wine room, and a pizza/pasta place. Those are all on the square. There are four options for outdoor eating. (And a big plus for Xeus, you can walk to the library from all of them).

The bar scene may suck for you. You're probably more of the "MLDudes" type. Fortunately, it's not that far down the road.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

I know you just make statements out of your ass, but seriously, how can you claim that the restaurant scene in Hyde Park Square sucks? There's a high end steakhouse, an upscale American, a burger place, a sushi place, a diner, a California style place, complete with wine room, and a pizza/pasta place. Those are all on the square. There are four options for outdoor eating. (And a big plus for Xeus, you can walk to the library from all of them).

The bar scene may suck for you. You're probably more of the "MLDudes" type. Fortunately, it's not that far down the road.

Just repped you for the MLDudes nickname. Also, don't forget to include Millions of Dudes in your tirade.

I like Mt Lookout (Zips/Dancing Wasabi/etc), but I will not ever venture into MLDudes or Millions of Dudes again unless someone is holding a gun to my head. The ban has been in effect for over a year now, and I hope that ban holds true for the rest of my life.

On a side note, I used to live in Hyde Park. Love Arthurs, Echo, Indigo, and Tellers. Never been to Red, Hyde Park Grill, Beluga, or Vineyard but I've heard nothing but good things.

I'm really liking some of the downtown scene right now as well since I moved closer to the city

[Kahns Krazy]

Sorry but I am so sick of that argument. Tax dollars are tax dollars are tax dollars. Just because it's capital dollars not general operating budget doesn't mean it's magic money that can be spent without consequence. .

Capital budgets as a concept separate from the operating budget make a lot of sense. It's a legitimate response to "why should we spend dollars on this project when we are laying off police and firemen". Well, part of the reason we are in a budget problem is a lack of capital investment in the past. We are not going to get out of the current economic situation by shooting down every investment idea. Is the streetcar the best investment? Maybe, maybe not. But arguing against capital investment in a period of shrinking operating revenues is counter-intuitive to me.


And where do you think the money is going to come from to make up the annual operating deficit that this trolley will surely have? Anyone that tells you it won't is lying.

This is an extremely valid argument. The article last week that talked about Tampa's streetcar highlights the fact that even given a successful private investment in the surrounding areas, the streetcar itself is a cost center. I'd like to see some sort of structure where the properties in the streetcar corridor pay an assessment to cover the operating costs of the streetcar.

[Kahns Krazy]

Just repped you for the MLDudes nickname.

And with that, I'm over the 10,000 rep point mark. Nobody remembers the second guy to get there. However, I got there before Snipe. Neener neener.

[blobfan]

Capital budgets as a concept separate from the operating budget make a lot of sense. It's a legitimate response to "why should we spend dollars on this project when we are laying off police and firemen". Well, part of the reason we are in a budget problem is a lack of capital investment in the past. We are not going to get out of the current economic situation by shooting down every investment idea. Is the streetcar the best investment? Maybe, maybe not. But arguing against capital investment in a period of shrinking operating revenues is counter-intuitive to me.

Yes but the whole "it's a capital allocation" comes up in every single argument about why we shouldn't be spending tax dollars on a project with such a small area of potential but hypothetical impact. The way Mallory talks about it you'd think capital dollars grow on trees specially cultivated by magic fairies that deliver them to government in pretty little baskets rather than pulling them out of taxpayer pockets.

[GuyFawkes38]

Yes but the whole "it's a capital allocation" comes up in every single argument about why we shouldn't be spending tax dollars on a project with such a small area of potential but hypothetical impact. The way Mallory talks about it you'd think capital dollars grow on trees specially cultivated by magic fairies that deliver them to government in pretty little baskets rather than pulling them out of taxpayer pockets.

I can't believe I'm defending Mallory.

But I do think that it's useful for Mallory to frame the debate in that manner. As Kahns says, it's a tool to quiet the critics who claim that every cent that the city has should go towards saving city jobs.

This works off Snipes great post on funding city departments via percentage allocation.

[Kahns Krazy]

Yes but the whole "it's a capital allocation" comes up in every single argument ...

Maybe it's because the critics bring up the argument every single time. They are tax dollars, yes, but it is a very valid defense to a very weak argument against the project. (especially since there are many far more valid arguments in opposition to the project)

[sirthought]

Maybe it's because the critics bring up the argument every single time. They are tax dollars, yes, but it is a very valid defense to a very weak argument against the project. (especially since there are many far more valid arguments in opposition to the project)

AND... just to add to that, the stimulus dollars are ready to go from the federal government NOW. Crucial for getting this project completed. They might not be if we weight until everyone gets on the same page and has a transportation system that YOU deem to be the best one... cuz there will always be someone who is pissed off that it's in their back yard or not in their back yard.

No mass transportation system is run without tax dollars. Not buses. Not subways. And definitely not highways. So I don't want to hear that it's not worth the investment because the public will have to continue to pay for it. We're paying for what we have now and it's causing too many other issues that aren't helping us.

[Strange Brew]

AND... just to add to that, the stimulus dollars are ready to go from the federal government NOW. Crucial for getting this project completed. They might not be if we weight until everyone gets on the same page and has a transportation system that YOU deem to be the best one... cuz there will always be someone who is pissed off that it's in their back yard or not in their back yard.

No mass transportation system is run without tax dollars. Not buses. Not subways. And definitely not highways. So I don't want to hear that it's not worth the investment because the public will have to continue to pay for it. We're paying for what we have now and it's causing too many other issues that aren't helping us.

I'm on the fence thought. Convince me. How is a line that runs from Clifton to downtown going to spur growth? I'd buy a line from CVG to downtown or from several burbs to downtown but the current plan? I'd like to give you the opportunity to convince me that an expensive line that runs from Clifton, through OTR, to the river is going to be a goldmine for the city.

[PM Thor]

yeah, this might be Thor bait.

I just heard a couple firemen on the radio heavily criticizing the prospect of financial cuts in Cincinnati to firefighting services.

The whole thing rubbed me the wrong way. It came across as threatening ("fund us, or you might die). Also, it came across as insulting to city workers outside of the police and fire services ("do we really need to water our public golf courses when people might die").

Beyond that, I don't buy the argument that fire and police services should dogmatically be immune from cuts. During good economic times it's more than likely that police and fire services become bloated in a similar manner as businesses in the private sector. It's reasonable to take a hard look and remedy such inefficiencies in times like these.

First, I have no animosity in what you are saying, and so I have to give you the information so you can make the judgment yourself. I cannot speak for the police (and honestly, I think they have some stupid programs going---Segways? Really?), so I will simply tell you about the C Effin D.

I know that the broadcast you heard was overly dramatic, but it has to be, for good measure.

It's simply true. (Plus firefighters aren't really known for subtlety, now are we?)

With closures of firehouses, people might die. It happened before. There were "brownouts" in 2005 (a year of pretty solid prosperity, right?) and a man died in Avondale. Truck 32, which was quite literally 4 blocks away, was unmanned for the day to cut costs. That company would have been the first there to effect a rescue, possibly. It's unknown if the citizen would have been saved, obviously, but Truck 32 would have at least been there. Thus, brownouts have a proven record of putting people at risk, and it's not even the most recent example.

Riddle Road, July 29.
http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090729/NEWS01/307290026

The two Trucks, Truck 19 and 29 (woohoo go 29ers) that found and rescued the two people trapped in this fire will be closed during these brownouts. Without them there, the first Truck responding would have been from Northside, and at rush hour, that's a good 10-12 minute drive, even for an emergency vehicle. (I was on the second for this fire)

But this isn't even the most recent example either! On August 10th, there was a fire where a civilian was pulled out of the fire by yet another Truck!
http://www.wcpo.com/news/local/story/One-Person-Rescued-From-Kennedy-Hts-Fire/Ydguk81MEEC-xn8RAQB-xg.cspx

I'm not trying to freak people out, nor am I trying to be overly dramatic about this, but there are rescues done very nearly every day in this town, it just isn't really reported very well. Hell, on Friday I personally was first in for an entrapment on an accident down on Central Parkway. It took us about 30 minutes to cut the guy out of the car, using one of the Heavy Rescue Companies, the other Heavy Rescue has already been closed through brown outs this year. If that entrapment happens right now, there is no Heavy Rescue to respond for anything else. They are gone for the day.

This stuff happens all the time, and without our full staffing, people are at risk. It's not scare tactics, it's just the truth. Here is a podcast of the actual hour being hosted on 550
http://citytalk550.com/2009/07/30/august-9th-discussing-fire-company-brown-outs/

As for public services expanding during the good years, I would normally agree, but not when it comes to the C Effin D. (I can't speak to the Police) We had brownouts back in '04-'05 due to budget concerns. I don't remember those years being too worrisome monetarily.

Our current staffing is 840, which is slightly bloated with an addition of 30 recruits this year, but that's because we have to account for a big retirement swing coming this year (due to the DROP program coming of age). We float right about the 790-810 number for the last decade.

The CFD has 26 stations, 26 fire engines (the guys who put out the fire), 12 trucks (the guys who rescue/ventilate), 2 heavy rescue companies (who don't do anything, they suck), 12 basic ambulances, 4 paramedic ambulances, 4 district chiefs, and very few other apparatus' (like an airport truck at Lunken and the bomb squad). We have 40 suppression companies. That's it.

The department has added two new ambulances this year.
That's the only expansion the department has had since 1990, outside of converting a Truck to a Heave Rescue squad (which I disagreed with).

The CFD added 2 other ambulances back in '90 too. Since 80% (yes, 80%) of my job is for EMS responses, then this is an understandable expansion. Yet, back 5 years ago, there was a TriData report done about the CFD, and they recommended that for the size of this city, the minimum number of ambulances necessary should be 14, still 2 more than we currently have, but we run short, and get absolutely crushed with the number of runs we go on when we ride on the ambulances. OTR drivers won't even be on the road as much as our ambulances are. 12 ambulances for the size of Cincinnati? That equates to 1 ambulance per 27,778 citizens. Think what happens when an incident comes in with multiple victims? It's pathetic and embarasses me.

I cannot state how lean the CFD is running right now, the fat has been trimmed to the bone. My engine (29) just got replaced with a hand me down engine from another house in the city, and we ran it into the ground, we were putting 2 gallons of oil into it every third day for the past 6 months, simply to extend its life. The firefighters who aren't out on the suppression companies (guys in programs like junior firestarters, fire investigations, training) are volunteering to come out to the companies to stop these brownouts. Guys are coming into work sick simply to stop brownouts that would happen if they called in. (which makes them virtually ineffective if they are really sick on a fire scene, but that's another issue) Take home cars are virtually nil.

Why do you think the police is facing layoffs, but the CFD isn't? It's simple, because Cincy Firefighters are bending over backwards for one another right now, and it does me proud. Brownouts will not be avoided, because it simply can't be kept up (do you think if H1N1 hits hard in the Fall, guess who will see it the most?). We are doing what we can, really, we are.

Guy, I understand your concerns about subjecting police/fire to cuts when in hard times, I really, really do. It's happening to everyone, pretty much everywhere. And in some instances I think there should be some cuts (like in overhauling firehouses right now, stupid), but there is public safety, the most basic of services. If the closures...err brownouts happen, the city will lose 25% of its rescue ability. Brownouts are dangerous. Simple enough.

Damn, epic rant.

PS Cincinnati Fire has double the national rate for survival for Cardiac Arrest. More with less.

I HATE dayton.

[sirthought]

I'm on the fence thought. Convince me. How is a line that runs from Clifton to downtown going to spur growth? I'd buy a line from CVG to downtown or from several burbs to downtown but the current plan? I'd like to give you the opportunity to convince me that an expensive line that runs from Clifton, through OTR, to the river is going to be a goldmine for the city.

Just read through this thread. There's plenty of discussion about that already through what's been posted and on links you discover more yourself.

I'd like a light rail system to run out to the airport, King Island, east side, west side, all over. But this is an inner-city street car. Different beasts.

But you have Clifton and Downtown, two neighborhoods with the highest concentration of employment in the city. You have the largest concentration of arts and entertainment options in the city. And you have plenty of Real Estate that's ready for redevelopment for retail, residential, and service. Businesses ready to entertain and serve.

Some people like a suburban big yard, driving all over instead of walking and going to the mall for fun. Nothing wrong with that. Many other people like to move where they have lots to do right down the street and they can just hop on a streetcar to go to work, shop, or play. There is already a steady increase in population in Downtown and OTR over the past five years. You put in a convenience like this in and it will boom, adding much needed tax revenue to the city.

It will also provide a much needed boost for tourism and convention business. Cincinnati isn't like other cities with good public train systems or even usable taxi service. (Have you ever tried to hail a taxi in Cincinnati? Can't be done unless you're at a Downtown hotel or the airport.) Conventions come to cities where it's easy for their customers to get around and enjoy the city without needing to walk or a car the whole time. This street car system will make that very easy and a great selling point. Whether you want to go to a Reds game, catch a play, visit a museum, hear live music...it'll all be a short walk from the street car line. That kind of service helps economic development.

[GuyFawkes38]

Thor, great post filled with a lot of facts and a compelling argument.

everyone should read it (why didn't the firefighters on the radio make such valid points).

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Thor, great post filled with a lot of facts and a compelling argument.

everyone should read it (why didn't the firefighters on the radio make such valid points).

I think the main arguments for the streetcar (Correct me if i'm wrong) are in the economic impact studies. There are 46 other cities all across the United States who are currently proposing a streetcar system. We are not alone and they are all going through the exact same arguments. The theory is that rail is a catalyst for economic development. THat once one puts rail into the ground, development follows(Businesses know that a bus route can be here today and gone tomorrow). Using Portland as a main example but Tampa, Miami Seattle, and others have seen their tax base grow as well (which the idea is all about). Here are some monetary numbers of development of cities who have put in streetcars.

Portland $2,800,000,000
Tampa $1,100,000,000
Little Rock$700,000,000
Tacoma $680,000,000
Kenosha $175,000,000

http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/city/downloads/city_pdf17754.pdf [pg. 21]

In Cincinnati's case, when all phases are done if this thing comes into fruition, it will be a 7.9 mile loop connecting the zoo to the banks. It will connect our two biggest employment centers but also hitting every destination in between including the Aronoff, fountain square, findlay market, and others. The study, that was estimated conservatively, has shown that it will produce an economic impact of 15:1 and a benefit to cost ratio of 2.75:1. It will rely on ridership fares and taxes to stay in business just like all public transportation.

The main arguments against it I've seen are...

1) Its too expensive
2) It doesn't pay for itself
3) Too much crime in OTR
4) How do we know the studies are correct
5) Cincinnati is dead and will always be dead
6) It's a toy that will become boondoggle
7) How does it benefit others in Cincinnati/How does it benefit me?
8) Rail is ancient technology that's dead for a reason

Feel free to add some others to the arguments against or for it...


I am personally for the streetcars if it can help the city attract and retain more population, therefore creating a sizable tax base to help pay for more policeman or whatever. I am a firm believer in the theory that a stronger core can only make the suburbs stronger as well. I do not want Cincinnati to become like a Detroit(I don't think anyone does). Is the streetcar a cure all? Of course not. But I think it would be an important piece in the developing puzzle connecting all the current stuff going on downtown. (The Banks, 5th and 7th street bar scene, New fountain square, Aronoff, All the restaurants, Queen City tower, the new condos/rehabbed apartments, etc).

[Kahns Krazy]

It's not like people don't die every day. Are people at an increased level of risk with fewer firefighters? Almost certainly. Is there money left in the checkbook to pay for more firefighters? Nope.

Here are some other fire department facts:

2000 budget : $50.7 million + $17.7 million for employee benefits. Total $68.4 Million.
2009 budget (prior to requested cuts) : $72.4 million + $25 million for employee benefits. Total $97.4 million.

Compound annual growth rate of FD Budget (2000-2009): 4.0%
Inflation rate (2000-2009): 2.9%
General Fund Revenue rowth rate (2000-2009) : 2.3%

FD Budget as a % of General Fund
2000: 22.4%
2009: 25.9%

Something has to give.

[blobfan]

...It will also provide a much needed boost for tourism and convention business. ... Conventions come to cities where it's easy for their customers to get around and enjoy the city without needing to walk or a car the whole time. This street car system will make that very easy and a great selling point. Whether you want to go to a Reds game, catch a play, visit a museum, hear live music...it'll all be a short walk from the street car line. That kind of service helps economic development.
Then why not have the route run closer to the convention center? Run it down the center of downtown and it's more convenient to both ballparks as well.


... The theory is that rail is a catalyst for economic development. THat once one puts rail into the ground, development follows(Businesses know that a bus route can be here today and gone tomorrow).
But the studies don't take into account other factors that might have contributed to economic development such as greater focus on clean streets, updated store fronts, covered trolley stops, etc. Who's to say that simply picking a downtown corridor and sprucing it up won't have greater bang for the buck? As far as I can find, no one has studied that aspect. People love to point to Portland but there's a whole series of factors there that encourage people to use mass transit. They like Kenosha too because it's relatively small but it has a train from there to Chicago and a lot of Chi-town commuters live out there who are happy to leave there cars in the garage.

If I'm driving downtown to work am I going to pick up the trolley afterwards to meet friends at a restaurant in Clifton then have to take the trolley back down to work to pick up my car again? Or am I just going to get in my car and drive to Clifton? I'd take a bus today if it got me there in a reasonable amount of time. I've tried it. It's ridiculous that my 20 minute car commute is 45 minutes by morning bus and 65 by evening bus. That's not counting the half mile walk from the stop to my front door. We have stops less than .1 miles apart. We don't know how to do basic public transportation in this town but we're supposed to let the same group build a $200 M trolley? That's like watching the feds make a mess out of Medicare and claiming that qualifies them to run a national public health system.


Feel free to add some others to the arguments against or for it...


9) It's foolish to put a streetcar in without having at least an outline of a greater plan in place. We have a phase one ready to go and a phase 2 that might go in the future but no guarantees it won't be killed in the future. Who's going to ride a streetcar to Findlay market? I'm afraid as it stands phase one might be built but phase 2 will be a decade further away, by which time the first phase will have lost effectiveness.

I'm not against streetcars. I'm a proponant of public transportation, and I accept that it must be publicly subsidized to be successful. But I'm against THIS streetcar because I can find no evidence of a real plan around it and this is the wrong time to throw money at something iffy and hope it works. Let's put a little more thought into it, integrate it with the current bus system, and come up with a real plan for the neighborhoods surrounding it to make sure it works.

The only thing more poorly thought out than the streetcar is the proposed charter amendment to block it.

[Kahns Krazy]

Who's to say that simply picking a downtown corridor and sprucing it up won't have greater bang for the buck? As far as I can find, no one has studied that aspect.

Well, there are at least half a dozen successful streetcar projects in existance around the country. Can you name one successful "sprucing up" project?

If the streetcar is to be a success, the overwhelming majority of invested dollars are going to come from private sources. If you are a developer with a chance to choose between a location on a streetcar line or one in a "sprucing up" area, which would you choose?

I am in general in favor of the streetcar plan. However, I'd like to see a whole lot more before I'd want it to actually move into the investment phase.

I can't believe it's the only available development option though. How would you spend $100 million in captial investment dollars?

[sirthought]

Then why not have the route run closer to the convention center? Run it down the center of downtown and it's more convenient to both ballparks as well.

How is Walnut and Main not down the center now? Yes, it could be more but that's pretty convenient compared to what exists now.

The convention center will be four blocks away. Like that's really far. But it's even closer when you consider that most people stay in a hotel and not at the convention center.


Who's to say that simply picking a downtown corridor and sprucing it up won't have greater bang for the buck?
Developers have been working on the Gateway Quarter for the past two years and it's really working to bring in businesses and residents, but that doesn't negate the need for this project which would have a much greater impact.


If I'm driving downtown to work am I going to pick up the trolley afterwards to meet friends at a restaurant in Clifton then have to take the trolley back down to work to pick up my car again? Or am I just going to get in my car and drive to Clifton?

Yes. Again, you'll always find a scenario that can shoot it down. But enough people will find a way that it will work for them.



9) It's foolish to put a streetcar in without having at least an outline of a greater plan in place. We have a phase one ready to go and a phase 2 that might go in the future but no guarantees it won't be killed in the future.

I'd like to see more growth, but even if future plans are killed I believe this project now is worth the investment and it will help strengthen the urban core in a way that helps the region.


Who's going to ride a streetcar to Findlay market?
Have you been paying attention to how many people are moving into Downtown? There are enough Downtowners to ride to Findlay. That's part of why they moved there...to be closer to amenities like that.

[Raoul Duke]

I'm on the fence thought. Convince me. How is a line that runs from Clifton to downtown going to spur growth? I'd buy a line from CVG to downtown or from several burbs to downtown but the current plan? I'd like to give you the opportunity to convince me that an expensive line that runs from Clifton, through OTR, to the river is going to be a goldmine for the city.


Just read through this thread. There's plenty of discussion about that already through what's been posted and on links you discover more yourself.



I'm with Strange Brew. Well said. I've read through this thread and haven't found anything that especially convinces me.

[Raoul Duke]

Developers have been working on the Gateway Quarter for the past two years and it's really working to bring in businesses and residents, but that doesn't negate the need for this project which would have a much greater impact.


Can you prove that it will have a much greater impact? Don't tell me to go look it up myself. You made the claim, you back it up. Otherwise, I think capital investment should go to things like Gateway quarter.




Have you been paying attention to how many people are moving into Downtown? There are enough Downtowners to ride to Findlay. That's part of why they moved there...to be closer to amenities like that.

All this does is tell me those people are already close to the amenities they sought out and have no need for additional forms of transportation.

[Raoul Duke]

Well, there are at least half a dozen successful streetcar projects in existance around the country. Can you name one successful "sprucing up" project?


New York City.

[Raoul Duke]

Basically, I see the streetcar as a connection. Which it is, both literally and figuratively. It is not a deus ex machina, which I sense is the hope of some of its proponents. You have to have something to connect. You need to have 'A' and 'B' already in place, then 'C', the streetcar, is something to connect them. 'A' and 'B' would be businesses and consumers, respectively.

[Raoul Duke]

But you have Clifton and Downtown, two neighborhoods with the highest concentration of employment in the city.

"Highest concentration of employment" is a kind of figure that I hear and think, what is that?, it sounds kind of like a bullshit statistic. It sounds like a statistic that its proponent cherry picked to sound good in support of his or her argument.

What does "highest concentration of employment' mean, and what does it prove? So what if you have 20,000 working for $7.00 an hour? I'm more worried about 2,000 people making $70,000 per year (yes, I know those are not parallels.) The point is, some bullshit propaganda statistic like 'highest concentration of employment' tells you absolutely nothing about whether the streetcar will succeed. It just sounds good to voters.





Some people like a suburban big yard, driving all over instead of walking and going to the mall for fun. Nothing wrong with that. Many other people like to move where they have lots to do right down the street and they can just hop on a streetcar to go to work, shop, or play. There is already a steady increase in population in Downtown and OTR over the past five years. You put in a convenience like this in and it will boom, adding much needed tax revenue to the city.

Man, I totally agree with you in principle here. First fuel the steady increase in downtown and OTR population - and business development - then put in the connector.

[Strange Brew]

New York City.

Well said, I was just there two weeks ago on business and spent quite a bit of time in cabs. During my cab rides I asked the cabbies "what changed the city from the dirty, crime infested jungle that my parents had experienced, to a clean, relatively safe place it is today". Their exact answers varied but all brought up the former mayor's commitment to cleaning up the streets (figuratively and literally).

None of them mentioned public transit.

The problem with the OTR corridor is that it struggles from a lack of public confidence in long term prosperity (many possible reasons but one can point to the riots as an example of the area's instability). At the beginning of the last decade, the area was on its way back. Thus IMHO, to improve the image of the area, the city should use the money to put extra law enforcement on the streets, frankly, lower corp taxes (as has been done on the other side of the river) to encourage business to business to open shop and begin an aggressive local marketing campaign to let people know that OTR is a safe place. Until suburban (face it, that's where the $$$$ are) public perception of the area improves, economic growth in OTR will be lethargic at best.

[PM Thor]

It's not like people don't die every day. Are people at an increased level of risk with fewer firefighters? Almost certainly. Is there money left in the checkbook to pay for more firefighters? Nope.

Here are some other fire department facts:

2000 budget : $50.7 million + $17.7 million for employee benefits. Total $68.4 Million.
2009 budget (prior to requested cuts) : $72.4 million + $25 million for employee benefits. Total $97.4 million.

Compound annual growth rate of FD Budget (2000-2009): 4.0%
Inflation rate (2000-2009): 2.9%
General Fund Revenue rowth rate (2000-2009) : 2.3%

FD Budget as a % of General Fund
2000: 22.4%
2009: 25.9%

Something has to give.

What you aren't accounting for here is the increase in run numbers. I can't find the numbers going back to 2000 (or earlier) but I am very confident in saying that the EMS portion of actual fire response has increased greatly in that time. So, it goes without saying that a larger percentage is being allocated towards fire to counterbalance this increase of services. (I have an inquiry to get those run numbers FYI).

But there is mismanagement too, from the city, on this issue. When it comes to collecting payment for ambulance care, the city is lacking. We don't have a collections agency going after people who don't pay, the city simply absorbs the cost if it isn't initially paid. On top of that, if people do pay for the care, it goes into the general fund, not to fire.

As for how else the numbers you provided are skewed, it involves actual allocation of the money, as in, rehabbing and building new firehouses, and the upkeep of fire apparatus'.

The fire department is "charged" for these things, but doesn't have control over the projects. Firehouses (police, and many, many others) fall under facility management, and fire apparatuses fall under the city garage. Both of these departments can charge the fire department whatever they like, and it comes out of the fire departments budget, with no fire department control or oversight. I kid you not. It's happening right now to the 29s house, my house, down in the West End. We are having a 300k rehab job done, we have complained to hold off on it, but since it is coming from facility management, it's going through.

That's just a couple of examples of how simple numbers in terms of overall budgetary use aren't truly a fair estimation of where departments should be cut.

I guess what I am saying is that the bureaucracy and red tape involved with the city is so astounding, so flabbergasting, there aren't any quick and fast answers on any of it.

I HATE dayton.

[sirthought]

"Highest concentration of employment" is a kind of figure that I hear and think, what is that?, it sounds kind of like a bullshit statistic. It sounds like a statistic that its proponent cherry picked to sound good in support of his or her argument.

What does "highest concentration of employment' mean, and what does it prove?

According to the Chamber of Commerce UC is the largest employer in the city and with surrounding businesses Clifton/Coryville has the largest concentration of workers in the city. The second largest concentration of workers is in Downtown/Uptown. It's not cherry picked. It's fact.

If you have your two largest areas of workers and put a convenient transportation line between them other development that capitalizes on that population occurs. This isn't rocket science. Certain people looking to invest in business already see that opportunity and are waiting for it to happen.

You're statement that they have to clean it up and bring residents in first seems ridiculous to me. It's a chicken or the egg statement, but in reality it will happen at the same time. Already with every development project that happens it brings in more residents. Just follow the Real Estate trades and you can see the Downtown and Gateway are starting to boom.

No, we're not NYC that already had a massive amount of population Downtown to serve, but there is a sizable and growing population of mixed class and status. I'm not worried about the suburban perception, as the people that want the convenience of Downtown will come no mater what others think. And it's not like the neighborhood is six blocks wide. Someone living on 4th Street will want to hop on a street car to get to Findlay which is in OTR. Someone living on Mulberry in Mt. Auburn who wants to head down to the Banks will be able to get there without having to drive. Etc.

[Kahns Krazy]

What you aren't accounting for here is the increase in run numbers. I can't find the numbers going back to 2000 (or earlier) but I am very confident in saying that the EMS portion of actual fire response has increased greatly in that time. So, it goes without saying that a larger percentage is being allocated towards fire to counterbalance this increase of services. (I have an inquiry to get those run numbers FYI).

But there is mismanagement too, from the city, on this issue. When it comes to collecting payment for ambulance care, the city is lacking. We don't have a collections agency going after people who don't pay, the city simply absorbs the cost if it isn't initially paid. On top of that, if people do pay for the care, it goes into the general fund, not to fire.

Then fix the freaking problems. Do not continue simply throwing more money at it.


As for how else the numbers you provided are skewed, it involves actual allocation of the money, as in, rehabbing and building new firehouses, and the upkeep of fire apparatus'.

The fire department is "charged" for these things, but doesn't have control over the projects. Firehouses (police, and many, many others) fall under facility management, and fire apparatuses fall under the city garage. Both of these departments can charge the fire department whatever they like, and it comes out of the fire departments budget, with no fire department control or oversight. I kid you not. It's happening right now to the 29s house, my house, down in the West End. We are having a 300k rehab job done, we have complained to hold off on it, but since it is coming from facility management, it's going through.



I HATE dayton.

The numbers I provided are from the operating budget. There is a separate and distinct capital budget.

You're ignoring one of the biggest problems, which is that the "employee benefits" line item equals $28,000 for every single person employed by the fire department. That is outrageous. You have a broken benefits system. Fix that, and you won't need "brownouts".

[Kahns Krazy]

New York City.

Excellent example. How much did they spend?

[PM Thor]

Then fix the freaking problems. Do not continue simply throwing more money at it.

As I noted, those problems are on the city, the fire department has no ability to change these issues.


The numbers I provided are from the operating budget. There is a separate and distinct capital budget.

You're ignoring one of the biggest problems, which is that the "employee benefits" line item equals $28,000 for every single person employed by the fire department. That is outrageous. You have a broken benefits system. Fix that, and you won't need "brownouts".

Well first, the city is self insured, so the numbers being listed aren't necessarily reflective of anything, they are just being shifted from one column to another column for accountings sake.

Here is my employer paid benefits line for the year. 80/20 Health plan, $3525.60. Dental, $910. Vision, $44.72. Pension, $14976.78.

That equals to $19,457 for a single guy, no family on my healthcare, on the lower end of the pay scale for the fire department (I'm not even vested nor have the accrual rate of guys with more time on). Then you throw in the different rates applied to the lieutenants, drivers, captains, specialists, paramedics, district chiefs, assistant chiefs, THE chief, and the civilians paid by the CFD too. On top of that, there is the vacation, sick, compensation, and holiday accrual rates, which are also based positionally and by service time. Those are all thrown under the umbrella of "employer paid benefits", but aren't truly "benefits", they are all contract negotiated items that haven't changed in a long, long time.

You can't just go on a line item like you have Kahns, and expect it to be the end all be all explanation for cost issues. Also, these rates are perfectly in line with benefits in the public sector. My rate is just around 35-40% of my pay scale, that is not outrageous, nor shocking for the public sector. (Of course, this is a terrible sample size...of one)

Also, with the fire department, we don't pay into Social Security, and obviously, don't draw from it either. There's a lot going on there that isn't explained by simply looking at the line items and saying "Hey that's where the problems are"

And I forgot to mention too about your line about the fire department increasing in budget percentage disporportionally. If other departments are losing funding, that in turn means the departments that aren't cut (or cut as much) will see a percent increase in the budget. It doesn't necessarily mean that said department is spending more, but when grouped with other departments who are spending less, percentages increase for the one not cut.

I HATE dayton.

[blobfan]

Basically, I see the streetcar as a connection. Which it is, both literally and figuratively. It is not a deus ex machina, which I sense is the hope of some of its proponents. You have to have something to connect. You need to have 'A' and 'B' already in place, then 'C', the streetcar, is something to connect them. 'A' and 'B' would be businesses and consumers, respectively.

Perfectly succinct. It is exactly this feeling that proponants seem to think this will in and of itself fix everything that worries me the most. Just like the lottery and keno were supposed to end problems with education funding for good, this streetcar ideas is sold as the cure to our inner city ills. It's fantasy.


Well, there are at least half a dozen successful streetcar projects in existance around the country.

Seems to me there's also 1/2 a dozen examples of less than successful streetcar projects around the country. $100M is a lot to throw at a 50-50 shot.

And while I can't point to another large example of a community focusing long-term on sprucing up an area, there are hundreds of small examples where vigilent and continued focus on fixing up store fronts, keeping streets lit, and make an area attractive brings more people and then more business into the area. I won't argue that this is as permanent than a streetcar but it might be more cost effective. And it's going to have to be done along the streetcar corridor any way so why not start there?

[GuyFawkes38]

Basically, I see the streetcar as a connection. Which it is, both literally and figuratively. It is not a deus ex machina, which I sense is the hope of some of its proponents. You have to have something to connect. You need to have 'A' and 'B' already in place, then 'C', the streetcar, is something to connect them. 'A' and 'B' would be businesses and consumers, respectively.

A=downtown Cincinnati/N. Kentucky

B=Clifton

Most of the jobs in the region lie between A and B (how exactly is pointing that out cherry picking data). Between A and B lies the potential for even more high density apartment/condos/offices.

Why is the NAACP opposing this plan? Do they fear gentrification in OTR? In all honesty, I bet those currently living in OTR fear the dynamic changes which will be unleashed in OTR with a streetcar. I know DWest may disagree with me, but OTR desperately needs gentrification.

[Kahns Krazy]

You can't just go on a line item like you have Kahns, and expect it to be the end all be all explanation for cost issues. Also, these rates are perfectly in line with benefits in the public sector. My rate is just around 35-40% of my pay scale, that is not outrageous, nor shocking for the public sector. (Of course, this is a terrible sample size...of one)
.

You are smoking a tremendous pile of crack. I have worked in family owned businesses, mid-sized private companies and Fortune 500 companies. The standard number for employee benefits in every one of those companies has been 15%.
(edit --- I read your statement the first time through as "not shocking for the private sector", which is obviously not what you wrote. I am a dumbass. The pile of crack is much smaller, but I stand by the following statement)

40% is outrageous.


Those are all thrown under the umbrella of "employer paid benefits", but aren't truly "benefits", they are all contract negotiated items that haven't changed in a long, long time.


Errrrr.... what? When you get paid money for something other than working, you don't consider this "benefits"?? What do you call it? "Other stuff that shouldn't count"? Dollars are dollars.



And I forgot to mention too about your line about the fire department increasing in budget percentage disporportionally. If other departments are losing funding, that in turn means the departments that aren't cut (or cut as much) will see a percent increase in the budget. It doesn't necessarily mean that said department is spending more, but when grouped with other departments who are spending less, percentages increase for the one not cut.

That's true, but the fire department budget is increasing in gross dollars and as a percentage of the total budget. That can not continue.

[Kahns Krazy]

Seems to me there's also 1/2 a dozen examples of less than successful streetcar projects around the country. $100M is a lot to throw at a 50-50 shot.
?

I am honestly not aware of those. Can you point me there?

[GuyFawkes38]

One thing I would like to point out is how disastrous Paul Brown Stadium has been to supporters of transit like myself.

The tax payers of Cincinnati spent hundreds of millions of dollars on a stadium which only attracts business into downtown 8 times a year. It's beyond ridiculous. I was talking to a friend who's an urban planner. According to him, it's much, much better according to a fact based cost/benefit analysis to build football stadiums in the suburbs instead of downtown (that doesn't hold for baseball).

PBS sits on the best real estate in the city, where shops, restaurants, and condos could have been built which attract people downtown 365 days a year.

Beyond that Cincy residents have much less of an appetite to build a transit system after pitching in to fund the stadium. There's no such thing as a free lunch. The city decided it's more important to spend political capital to build a stadium than make other city wide improvements like light rail.

[PM Thor]

40% is outrageous.

No actually, 40% is actually on the lower side of the public sector for benefits. It leans more towards 50% for public worker pensions, healthcare, etc. It's because the private sector is front loaded when it comes to pay (better pay) with the emphasis more on the worker investing that money themselves, whereas with the public sector the pay is back end loaded, which of course means we don't get the pay, but are taken care of better in terms of pension and other benefits. From what I understand, when it comes to most public sector jobs, retention is a major issue (Cincy Police loses cops at an astounding rate), and with the inability for most public municipalities to compete with actual dollar amounts, the benefits package is how this disporportion in pay between private and public is mitigated. (Fire depts retention rate is incredibly high, for multiple, multiple reasons)



Errrrr.... what? When you get paid money for something other than working, you don't consider this "benefits"?? What do you call it? "Other stuff that shouldn't count"? Dollars are dollars.

No, you misunderstand. The city labels them under benefits, but are actually union/city contract agreements, and even though they have been applied the same way for quite literally decades, they still fall under the "benefits" umbrella. In fact, they should be separated from "benefits" because they are contractually obligated to pay them, different from the other things in there. So your point is moot, because these items you are pointing to are agreed upon by the city and the fire union, which can't be touched. It's like our pay scale, which increased 2 1/2% from '07 to '08, and then 2 1/2% again from '08 to '09. This amount is agreed upon from negotiations back in late '06. Blame the city for those amounts.


That's true, but the fire department budget is increasing in gross dollars and as a percentage of the total budget. That can not continue.

But you seem to be saying that the budget increase isn't warranted, when in fact, there are valid reasons for the increase.

Run numbers are on the increase, which in turn increases wear on equipment, makes OT, uses more supplies, fuel consumption, all as examples. It all comes down to EMS. People abuse the EMS system, and use 911 as a personal doctor and glorified taxi to the hospital. (I had my numbers wrong on ambulances by the way, Cincinnati doesn't have 12, we have 8, don't know what I was thinking there) If other departments also had an increase in services, then I would assume their budgets would shift upwards too. (I have a distinct feeling the CPD has increased in this manner too)

I rode the ambulance yesterday, and made 15 runs in a 24 hour shift, which is typical. Out of those 15, I would say 3 were "true" emergencies that should have been ambulance rides. The others involve someone with a cyst, a spider bite, leg cramps, a drug seeker, and a guy who had been to Good Sam 8 times in the last week, among a few. But here is the kicker, due to liability issues, the city and our medical director have not allowed us from denying an ambulance ride to anyone who requests it. You say you want to go to the hospital, we have an obligation to take you, no matter what. It's ridiculous, and is a monumental, humongous waste of resources, time, and money. Fire has no control over this, and it wastes taxpayer money. We know it, the city knows it, but the city administration has made it clear it's better to simply absorb the cost into the fire budget over facing any potential lawsuits.

It's an unfair double standard. Fire is expected to curtail spending (like everyone else), but aren't given the tools to do so. If we were allowed to take control of EMS abuse, collect pay from insured and the uninsured for services rendered, and refuse transporting abusers, then there would be a huge, huge savings involved.

Fire and police are not static, unlike many other departments. It is very, very hard to predict spending allocations for these departments, all it takes is a styrene leak or a costume shop fire (hah, youtube it, I was first in) and the budget for these departments are just blown to crap.

But again, I know what you are saying Kahns, and you have a point, but applying private sector intelligence to public sector red tape is an act of futility. (FYI, the chick must be doing exceptionally well at P&G, based on your 15% figure...)

I HATE dayton.

[Kahns Krazy]

What you see as reasons for a justifiable increase, I see as the core of the problem that needs to be fixed. As long as the city continues to increase the fire budget, there will be no pressing need to fix these problems.

Cut the waste and cut the budget. Problem solved.

I realize nearly all of these issues are way out of your hands, and I'm certainly not blaming you for any of them.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

One thing I would like to point out is how disastrous Paul Brown Stadium has been to supporters of transit like myself.

PBS sits on the best real estate in the city, where shops, restaurants, and condos could have been built which attract people downtown 365 days a year.

Beyond that Cincy residents have much less of an appetite to build a transit system after pitching in to fund the stadium. There's no such thing as a free lunch. The city decided it's more important to spend political capital to build a stadium than make other city wide improvements like light rail.


http://thephonyconey.blogspot.com/2009/08/coast-flip-flops-on-stadium-issue.html

-Just some daily hypocrisy with this charter amendment nonsense from none other than 1 of the Chris's (Finney). COAST is trying to compare the streetcar project to the stadium deal by really stretching the truth. Smitherman I will not comment on since he is so absurd. I think we are all on the same page with him.

The banks has been disastrous. There's no arguing that. Had they been on schedule nearly a decade ago, downtown Cincinnati might look very different. But now its finally starting. http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090816/BIZ01/908160321/The+Banks+designers+search+for+WOW. Phase 1 is ahead of schedule. The parking garages are already at street level. http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,2772.4200.html (Scroll down to about halfway down for some pictures)

As for light rail, we have an enormous transit center just sitting there collecting dust.http://www.cincinnati-transit.net/transitcenter.html (Obviously there would have to be adjustments and expansion if light rail comes into play) It was built with the idea of public transit (specifically light rail) in mind. 2002 was a massacre at the voting booths. The suburbs hated the idea. I blieve it was defeated by nearly a 66/33% vote. There are some real legitimate arguments for light rail as well as against it. Officially, we are the largest metropolitan area in the country with no passenger rail.

[sirthought]

http://blog.walkscore.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/WalkingTheWalk_CEOsforCities.pdf

Here is a PDF report on how walkability raises home values. It relates well to the discussion of how a street car can improve Cincinnati's urban core.

[pizza delivery]

Wow, looking for a good debate on the streetcar and I found it no place other than XH on google. Love it.

I actually came here looking for a reason why on earth a liberal like Smitherman would be against the streetcar. I agree with Guy Fawkes, it's got to be gentrification.

If the car runs through OTR where it's planned, that reclaims all that "needs" to be reclaimed right away: 12th st, Washington Park, Music Hall, the performing arts area, and Findlay Market. It defines exactly what needs to be policed and spruced up.

When I look at great urban cores that I visit, I know that if they ever had social problems within, they long ago busted some heads and cleaned things out for the benefit of all visitors and citizens. Cincinnati needs to make the hard choices and reclaim OTR from the criminals. If you spruce this area up, allow artists, students, businesses, et al, move in, the attitude will start to change.

My formula for a vital downtown: attractive young females. UC is needed. You bring them, they will come, or something.

[sirthought]

My formula for a vital downtown: attractive young females.

Amen, brother.

[sirthought]

Here is a state survey on the subject of high speed rail.

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/Divisions/Rail/Programs/passenger/3CisME/Lists/Survey/NewForm.aspx

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Here is a state survey on the subject of high speed rail.

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/Divisions/Rail/Programs/passenger/3CisME/Lists/Survey/NewForm.aspx

The anti-streetcar/all forms of rail charter will be put on the November ballot.

I think this could be absolutely disastrous if passed.

[PM Thor]

The anti-streetcar/all forms of rail charter will be put on the November ballot.

I think this could be absolutely disastrous if passed.

Well get ready, because it's going to pass, and pass easily. Dammit.

I would absolutely love a light rail corridor running from Cincy to Cleveland. I would hop on that trail all the time to visit my brothers in Columbus and Cleveland. Alas, I doubt I'll ever see it.

I HATE dayton.

[GuyFawkes38]

Well get ready, because it's going to pass, and pass easily. Dammit.

I would absolutely love a light rail corridor running from Cincy to Cleveland. I would hop on that trail all the time to visit my brothers in Columbus and Cleveland. Alas, I doubt I'll ever see it.

I HATE dayton.

Is it that certain? I know the Cincinnati Enquirer came out against it.

Is it a county or city amendment? If it's city, it seems like most residents tend to be more progressive on these types of things (although the NAACP's support won't hep).

Just from this board, it seems like a lot of people are saying that they are against the streetcar but also against the amendment.

[wkrq59]

Jimmy, Thor and Guy.
Sadly, I'm afraid it will fail like many other sensible proposals in our fair city because that's just the way it is. I truly believe the high-speed rail from Cleveland to Cincinnati through Columbus and Dayton should be established and include stops at each of those city's airports except Greater Cincinnati. That way CVG could almost be forced to provide Delta with competition or close. The Delta Hub has all but been lost. Being forced to drive to Dayton, Columbus, Indy or Louisville to find decent air fares is still ridiculous but a necessity.
The idea of wording that lumps the damned street car proposal with the rail is ludicrous. But that's the way things are done in out fair city. We ruin our county and city's budget for the future to build two stadiums to keep two franchises which have been losers eer since they set foot in heir new homes. The only ones who made any money from those arenas are the teams that play in them.
Because of the weather around here, both stadiums should have had retractable roofs. And both should have been available to the people who paid for them and will payfor them for damn near generations to come, for year-round events, such as college and high school football games at minimal charge.
Ah, but why torture ourselves. The core downtown remains dead after 6 p.m., and please don't site the so-called vibrant core city because it doesn't exist. Just continue the tradition of saying no, unless the proper palms are crossed with coin.:(:(:(

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Jimmy, Thor and Guy.
Sadly, I'm afraid it will fail like many other sensible proposals in our fair city because that's just the way it is. I truly believe the high-speed rail from Cleveland to Cincinnati through Columbus and Dayton should be established and include stops at each of those city's airports except Greater Cincinnati. That way CVG could almost be forced to provide Delta with competition or close. The Delta Hub has all but been lost. Being forced to drive to Dayton, Columbus, Indy or Louisville to find decent air fares is still ridiculous but a necessity.
The idea of wording that lumps the damned street car proposal with the rail is ludicrous. But that's the way things are done in out fair city. We ruin our county and city's budget for the future to build two stadiums to keep two franchises which have been losers eer since they set foot in heir new homes. The only ones who made any money from those arenas are the teams that play in them.
Because of the weather around here, both stadiums should have had retractable roofs. And both should have been available to the people who paid for them and will payfor them for damn near generations to come, for year-round events, such as college and high school football games at minimal charge.
Ah, but why torture ourselves. The core downtown remains dead after 6 p.m., and please don't site the so-called vibrant core city because it doesn't exist. Just continue the tradition of saying no, unless the proper palms are crossed with coin.:(:(:(

It just sucks that people like Smitherman are deciding Cincinnati's future....

So most likely there will be a huge rail hub in the midwest. Chicago-Minneapolis-St Louis-Indianapolis-Louisville-Toledo-Detroit-Dayton-Cleveland-Columbus-Akron-Lexington. No Cincinnati. That would be disastrous for the city.

Our founders did not want direct democracy for a reason. Guy, who knows how the city will vote. Smitherman has incredible control and power in certain areas unfortunately. Finney has a lot of pull as well. I expect a mass marketing blitz on 700, the enquirer, and local tv stations in the weeks prior to november. I don't mind if they are against the streetcar. Thats another issue. But phrasing the initiative the way they did (intentionally of course), and then claiming ignorance is just absurd. On top of that, getting citizens to sign it saying its only for the streetcar is just wrong. Should be an interesting "ride" to november.

Freakin Smitherman. I still don't know what the reasoning is behind his hatred of the streetcar and rail in general. I believe his brother is for the streetcar(not confirmed). I never would have imagined a Smitherman-Finney team. Add to that the fact I recently saw a movie in production that will star Robert DeNiro, Lindsay Lohan, and Steven Seagall. Its bizarro world. Whats next? Jim Rome and Chris Everett go fishing together? On that note, time for P90x to destroy me. I'm a day late for Ab Ripper x, Shoulders/Arms, and if I have the energy-probably not-Cardio X.

[PM Thor]

Is it that certain? I know the Cincinnati Enquirer came out against it.

Is it a county or city amendment? If it's city, it seems like most residents tend to be more progressive on these types of things (although the NAACP's support won't hep).

Just from this board, it seems like a lot of people are saying that they are against the streetcar but also against the amendment.

It's not certain, but I have absolutely no confidence in the Cincinnati populace and their voting history. I look directly at the citys current council for my reasoning.

I HATE dayton.

[GuyFawkes38]

It's not certain, but I have absolutely no confidence in the Cincinnati populace and their voting history. I look directly at the citys current council for my reasoning.

I HATE dayton.

Very true.

I don't follow city politics too closely, but it does seem like Cincy needs a stronger mayor (like chicago, NYC, etc...). Strong mayors love big capital projects and Cincy needs them. I'm not sure who exactly to blame for this. Is it the way city government is structured. Or have we just had weak, ineffective mayors.

[sirthought]

The core downtown remains dead after 6 p.m., and please don't site the so-called vibrant core city because it doesn't exist.

I don't know where you've been, but the core downtown is active most nights now until about 9 or 10 in the evening. That's pretty good compared to where things were before the square was remodeled. Restaurants are much busier and bars are busy. People are out. You see lines at many of the 6th and 7th Street bars.

Q - Tomorrow (Friday) night is the last of our MidPoint Indie Summer concerts. Come on out and see how dead it is. The beautiful Kim Taylor is playing. Or if that isn't your thing come on Saturday for the Guinness Oyster Fest from noon to 10 pm. Or the concert on Sunday, Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday. www.myfountainsquare.com

Fountain Square's crowded http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20090828/ENT/908280324

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2595/3872949047_c663bc64a8.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2460/3829684491_4140ee8ac2.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3177/2674075825_dacdfa1b6a.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3189/2674067551_b97058f3da.jpg

[sirthought]

Issue 9 can affect Zoo Train, Museum Trains, Amtrak:
http://tinyurl.com/mreowo

[X-band '01]

I don't know where you've been, but the core downtown is active most nights now until about 9 or 10 in the evening. That's pretty good compared to where things were before the square was remodeled. Restaurants are much busier and bars are busy. People are out. You see lines at many of the 6th and 7th Street bars.

Q - Tomorrow (Friday) night is the last of our MidPoint Indie Summer concerts. Come on out and see how dead it is. The beautiful Kim Taylor is playing. Or if that isn't your thing come on Saturday for the Guinness Oyster Fest from noon to 10 pm. Or the concert on Sunday, Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday. www.myfountainsquare.com

Fountain Square's crowded http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20090828/ENT/908280324

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2595/3872949047_c663bc64a8.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2460/3829684491_4140ee8ac2.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3177/2674075825_dacdfa1b6a.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3189/2674067551_b97058f3da.jpg

I thought those people were downtown to promote another WKRP in Cincinnati DVD release.

[blobfan]

I thought those people were downtown to promote another WKRP in Cincinnati DVD release.

If that were true they'd all have turkey-proof umbrellas.

[Juice]

I don't know where you've been, but the core downtown is active most nights now until about 9 or 10 in the evening. That's pretty good compared to where things were before the square was remodeled. Restaurants are much busier and bars are busy. People are out. You see lines at many of the 6th and 7th Street bars.

Q - Tomorrow (Friday) night is the last of our MidPoint Indie Summer concerts. Come on out and see how dead it is. The beautiful Kim Taylor is playing. Or if that isn't your thing come on Saturday for the Guinness Oyster Fest from noon to 10 pm. Or the concert on Sunday, Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday. www.myfountainsquare.com

Fountain Square's crowded http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20090828/ENT/908280324

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2595/3872949047_c663bc64a8.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2460/3829684491_4140ee8ac2.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3177/2674075825_dacdfa1b6a.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3189/2674067551_b97058f3da.jpg

I would agree that Fountain Square usually has something going on, but downtown as a whole doesn't offer much. Much of the business is in a two block area.

[Kahns Krazy]

I would agree that Fountain Square usually has something going on, but downtown as a whole doesn't offer much. Much of the business is in a two block area.

I think that most of the time when I hear things like this, the real truth is "I spend the majorty of my time in a two block area, therefore, I assume there's nothing beyond it".

What are you looking for in a downtown that isn't offered? About the only thing I can think of is a movie theatre. I think that's the big area that Newport scored on. Other than that, I can think of more things to do downtown than I can fit into a year.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

An informative interview with Joe Sprengard of Cincinnatian's for Progress on why Finney and Smitherman's charter is just plain dangerous for the city.

Republican or democrat, for or against the streetcar, there are serious problems with the issue 9 proposal. Interview roughly 10-15 minutes I believe

http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/CINCINNATI-OH/WLW-AM/090916_2_WILLIE.mp3?CPROG=PCAST&MARKET=CINCINNATI-OH&NG_FORMAT=newstalk&SITE_ID=1209&STATION_ID=WLW-AM&PCAST_AUTHOR=700WLW&PCAST_CAT=Talk_Radio&PCAST_TITLE=Bill_Cunningham_On_Demand

[blobfan]

...What are you looking for in a downtown that isn't offered? About the only thing I can think of is a movie theatre. I think that's the big area that Newport scored on. Other than that, I can think of more things to do downtown than I can fit into a year.

Shopping. I think to really make the downtown a distination to live and vist, the shopping needs to be better. As a downtown worker I'd probably take care of a lot of errands during my lunch hour if there were more shopping. It'd be nice to bring visitors downtown for both meals and shopping but we always end up at the malls.

I just don't think the mix is very good. We have a lot of low-end shopping (TJ Maxx and Payless) and some high end (Saks and the boutiques North of Court Street), but very little mid-range. The downtown Macy's has a cruddy selection and pretty mediocre customer service. I'm not sure what else down here would qualify as good shopping. Granted, I'm not a big shopper so I'm only aware of the stores I seek out to fill specific needs. But you can walk a long way through shady blocks to get from one downtown store to the next.

I can't speak to how things work in Portland but in other cities I've visited public transportation works when it links destinations. Aside from the Clifton crowd that might occasionally come downtown to party, I'm not sure what the draw is going to be.

[sirthought]

Aside from the Clifton crowd that might occasionally come downtown to party, I'm not sure what the draw is going to be.

The entertainment industry is a vital part of Cincinnati's economy. It's not like there isn't anything on the calendar every day of the year. I'm including here:
- numerous bars and restaurants that are big draws all by themselves
- Taft, Aronoff, Ensemble, Know theaters (and we are working on reopening Emory)
- 2 art museums (Taft and CAC)
- several art galleries in downtown and OTR
- professional baseball, football and hockey
- Music Hall (The CSO just sold 3K+ tickets on opening night) (It's being remodeled.)
- The soon-to-be remodeled Washington Park (just wait)
- Findlay Market
- The Gaslight District
- UC Football and Basketball
- Esquire Movie Theater
- UC classes
- CCM Performances
- Art Academy of Cincinnati classes
- Antonelli School classes
- SCPA
- Bogart's

These places already draw people. It would only be easier for those living around the street car to frequent the businesses more often if they could not worry about driving. New parking facilities could be built near the route to also be a convenient option for those living outside the area to go things like UC/Bengals football games, MidPoint, etc.

Plus, there are others who have clearly stated they will build more entertainment-friendly destinations if a street car is in place. This includes the revamped Rookwood Pottery (not the restaurant) and Cincinnati Beer Co. We also have a whole new park being built around the Banks, including the new Christian Moerlein place, which sounds awesome.

What's the draw? We're talking easily-walkable sections of downtown, mt. auburn and Clifton/Corryville. Apartments, condos, and homes near the line. I haven't even gotten to the boring businesses (like banks or P&G) that employ people who live and work around the streetcar route.

[sirthought]

Here is a slide show that takes you to every stop on the current phase's plan.
Some of the sites have loads of potential riders already there. Others show buildings that will need to be developed. But the opportunities for our urban growth are obvious just looking at this.

http://www.mcflash.4000loavesanhour.com/Cincinnati_Streetcar_Virtual_Tour/

[nuts4xu]

I love black people.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Here is a slide show that takes you to every stop on the current phase's plan.
Some of the sites have loads of potential riders already there. Others show buildings that will need to be developed. But the opportunities for our urban growth are obvious just looking at this.

http://www.mcflash.4000loavesanhour.com/Cincinnati_Streetcar_Virtual_Tour/

Great find...Do you know when the next public meeting is?

[sirthought]

Cincinnati Council candidate Laure Quinlivan, a former 9 News reporter, put together this video on what she has discovered about street cars.
http://vimeo.com/6727365

Urban Cincy has this post about the recent town meeting regarding the larger rail 3C Corridor and it's impact on Cincinnati
http://www.urbancincy.com/2009/09/3c-corridor-and-its-impacts-on.html

Another good conversation on the meeting here.
http://explorecincinnati.com/

[PM Thor]

I wish I had thought of this earlier, but if (or when) that casino bill passes, I wish they had tied it to streetcars, as in, why not have it that when the casino gets built, they subsidize a major portion of the building of the streetcars?

It makes too much sense, if the casino goes in, it goes in at broadway commons, why not have a big loop go from there, down and past the stadiums and the banks, out to the museum center, up to UC, and back down through OTR (if they have to). I am sure, absolutely sure, that the casino owners would be all for subsidizing a streetcar project that goes by their casino. Just a thought.

I HATE dayton.

[GuyFawkes38]

hmmm, this map is little concerning: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_U72QTDcNpU0/SrqzpuXKWrI/AAAAAAAABg4/qFGJvBF5gUs/s1600-h/Recommended+Route_3C+Corridor.jpg

I understand politically it helps to have lots of stops. But having stops at middletown, Dayton (very out of the way), south cleveland, etc., really dammages the entire "high speed rail" concept.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Guy,

I would imagine there would be express routes and local train routes that stop at every stop. As it is, I'm not thrilled with their top speed of 79 mph, but its a start and supposedly will have the potential to go to 110 in the future. (Just annoying when France, Japan and other countries have trains that run ridiculously fast - Bullet train comes to mind).

PM, thats a great point with the casino. I never really gave it much thought, but in theory that could definitely be beneficial assuming non city/anti city resident Finney and nutbag Smitherman don't get their way this November.

[Kahns Krazy]

I doubt the casino will have any reference to the streetcar, since you're talking state vs. local initiatives.

[xeus]

I wish I had thought of this earlier, but if (or when) that casino bill passes, I wish they had tied it to streetcars, as in, why not have it that when the casino gets built, they subsidize a major portion of the building of the streetcars?

It makes too much sense, if the casino goes in, it goes in at broadway commons, why not have a big loop go from there, down and past the stadiums and the banks, out to the museum center, up to UC, and back down through OTR (if they have to). I am sure, absolutely sure, that the casino owners would be all for subsidizing a streetcar project that goes by their casino. Just a thought.

I HATE dayton.

Thor, Issue 3 is a state issue. Issue 9 is a City of Cincinnati issue.

[GuyFawkes38]

Guy,

I would imagine there would be express routes and local train routes that stop at every stop. As it is, I'm not thrilled with their top speed of 79 mph, but its a start and supposedly will have the potential to go to 110 in the future. (Just annoying when France, Japan and other countries have trains that run ridiculously fast - Bullet train comes to mind).


are they laying new track for this project that eventually has the capability of true high speed rail.

I read an article about the Acela (connects DC-Boston (or maybe NYC) corridor). The trains are high speed but they use existing track which slows them down drastically.

[PM Thor]

Thor, Issue 3 is a state issue. Issue 9 is a City of Cincinnati issue.

I know, just wish there was a way for the dumbkopfs at city hall could have taken advantage of the casino money that is bound to come in, and then apply it to their pet project. Oh to dream.

I HATE dayton.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

are they laying new track for this project that eventually has the capability of true high speed rail.

I read an article about the Acela (connects DC-Boston (or maybe NYC) corridor). The trains are high speed but they use existing track which slows them down drastically.

I believe you are correct. It is the track slowing everything down.

I just checked the high speed rail in California they are building. http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/map.htm

Listen to these one way trips:

1) Sacramento to San Diego - 588 miles - 3 hrs 25 minutes - 68 bucks!

2) San Francisco to LA - 432 miles - 2 hours 38 minutes - 55 bucks

Obviously a ton more possibilities those are just the ones I chose initially. Sacramento, Stockton, Modesto, Merced, San Fran, SFO Airport, Redwood City/Palo Alto, San Jose, Gilroy, Fresno, Bakersfield, Palmdale, Sylmar, Burbank, LA, Norwalk, Anaheim, Irvine, Industry, Ontario, Riverside, Temecula, Escondito, University City, and San Diego. Unbelievable.

228 top speed MPH.

Anyways, back to Ohio,

Here is another interview on why issue 9 is disastrous for the city. This one conducted by Mike McConnell.

http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/CINCINNATI-OH/WLW-AM/090929_2_mcconnell.mp3?CPROG=PCAST&MARKET=CINCINNATI-OH&NG_FORMAT=newstalk&SITE_ID=1209&STATION_ID=WLW-AM&PCAST_AUTHOR=700WLW_&PCAST_CAT=Talk_Radio&PCAST_TITLE=Mike_McConnell_On_Demand

[GuyFawkes38]

I believe you are correct. It is the track slowing everything down.

I just checked the high speed rail in California they are building. http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/map.htm

Listen to these one way trips:

1) Sacramento to San Diego - 588 miles - 3 hrs 25 minutes - 68 bucks!

2) San Francisco to LA - 432 miles - 2 hours 38 minutes - 55 bucks

Obviously a ton more possibilities those are just the ones I chose initially. Sacramento, Stockton, Modesto, Merced, San Fran, SFO Airport, Redwood City/Palo Alto, San Jose, Gilroy, Fresno, Bakersfield, Palmdale, Sylmar, Burbank, LA, Norwalk, Anaheim, Irvine, Industry, Ontario, Riverside, Temecula, Escondito, University City, and San Diego. Unbelievable.

228 top speed MPH.

Anyways, back to Ohio,

Here is another interview on why issue 9 is disastrous for the city. This one conducted by Mike McConnell.

http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/CINCINNATI-OH/WLW-AM/090929_2_mcconnell.mp3?CPROG=PCAST&MARKET=CINCINNATI-OH&NG_FORMAT=newstalk&SITE_ID=1209&STATION_ID=WLW-AM&PCAST_AUTHOR=700WLW_&PCAST_CAT=Talk_Radio&PCAST_TITLE=Mike_McConnell_On_Demand

wow. that would be great for business.

great interview. The absurdity of issue 9 is mind boggling. crazy that Mike McConnell is now the sensible conservative at WLW.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

wow. that would be great for business.

great interview. The absurdity of issue 9 is mind boggling. crazy that Mike McConnell is now the sensible conservative at WLW.

COAST today got defensive on the blog. They used the classic statement

"Much like the streetcar (if it was really so fab, private developers would be knocking each other down to build it at their own expense)"

Phony Coney does a nice job breaking down why that statement doesn't make sense anymore.

http://thephonyconey.blogspot.com/2009/09/why-dont-private-companies-build.html

[sirthought]

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/1848/flowchart.jpg

[drudy23]

According to the Chamber of Commerce UC is the largest employer in the city and with surrounding businesses Clifton/Coryville has the largest concentration of workers in the city. The second largest concentration of workers is in Downtown/Uptown. It's not cherry picked. It's fact.

If you have your two largest areas of workers and put a convenient transportation line between them other development that capitalizes on that population occurs. This isn't rocket science. Certain people looking to invest in business already see that opportunity and are waiting for it to happen.


. Etc.

But what destinations do you want to connect to when you are at work? When do you ever get up from your desk from work and say, "Hey, let's take the street car to Findlay Market"?

I don't understand the argument that the "highest concentration of workers" is the key. Are you really a consumer when you are at work? Not really.

I can see a system, as others have mentioned, that connects the center to the northern, southern (NKY), and western burbs. But I will never understand why I would ever need to take a streetcar from Carew Tower to the Reds stadium.

I can just walk...it's like 2 blocks away.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/1848/flowchart.jpg

Great find...What's ironic is that Coast gathered some of these signatures on the very same fountain square development that they protested against.

[sirthought]

But what destinations do you want to connect to when you are at work? When do you ever get up from your desk from work and say, "Hey, let's take the street car to Findlay Market"?

I don't understand the argument that the "highest concentration of workers" is the key. Are you really a consumer when you are at work? Not really.

I can see a system, as others have mentioned, that connects the center to the northern, southern (NKY), and western burbs. But I will never understand why I would ever need to take a streetcar from Carew Tower to the Reds stadium.

I can just walk...it's like 2 blocks away.
If you can't understand the argument concerning your largest demographic that consistently consumes something, then I'm not sure I could help you any further.

Maybe you don't get from your desk, Drudy23, but plenty of people do. My work keeps me on my feet walking around Downtown and OTR to clients all the time. Convenient transportation in this area will open up lots of options and possibilities.

Plus, not all people work the same hours. Plenty of errands are run by folks before and after work or on lunch breaks. And most important is that not everyone lives in the burbs. We want people to live in the city center and find it convenient to get around without a car. If you don't live in the city center we want you to be able to come down and park once and be able to get around to do several things, not just a Reds game.

[Kahns Krazy]

But what destinations do you want to connect to when you are at work? When do you ever get up from your desk from work and say, "Hey, let's take the street car to Findlay Market"?.

Do you really not see the flaw in this argument?

[xeus]

We want people to live in the city center and find it convenient to get around without a car.

We already have people living in the city center. We also already have a way for people to get around without a car. I'm just not buying that a streetcar is really going to accomplish much.

[xeus]

Do you really not see the flaw in this argument?

I'm with drudy on this. Please explain how I will use a streetcar while I am at work.

[Kahns Krazy]

If we never get a streetcar, I am 100% willing to concede the point that you will never use the streetcar while at work.

[drudy23]

Here is my travel itinerary on a weekly basis:

Walk to the 12 floor from my parking spot.
Maybe head to Floor 5 for a meeting
Maybe head to Floor 11 for a meeting
Maybe head to conference room on Floor 12 for a meeting
I'm hungry...I'm going to walk a block and eat some lunch
After that, I'm going to walk back to Floor 12 and check my email
Rather, rinse, repeat

Where else do I need to be?

And for those that think I'm crazy, I'm obviosuly not in the minority on this one as there isn't much anticipation that this thing will pass if it ever gets on a ballot. So, before you call my thought process stupid, you better recognize that if you aren't able to convince me, you aren't getting this thing passed.

[sirthought]

I'm with drudy on this. Please explain how I will use a streetcar while I am at work.

Okay, well it depends on where you work, but 1000's of people will be close to the line. Have you seen how many businesses are downtown and Clifton? They all have customers coming into their store/office to do business with them. So somebody is doing business during work hours other than at their desk. You can now either walk or drive a car to get there. Another transportation alternative could help. How about these possibilities:

1) Ride to work. Make a stop for breakfast on the way.

2) Meeting with a client/collaborator that's 10 blocks away. It's too close to drive and re-park. Too far to walk.

3) Shop for office supplies or make copies that you can't do on your in-house machine. Shop for office furniture. Shop for just about anything an office would use. Drop off a package at the FedEx after your office's pick up has already happened.

4) Go out to lunch in a different neighborhood. The line will be in 4 or five different ones. You work in Corryville but want Lucy Blue Pizza in OTR, this is a fast way to get it.

5) Park near your office near UC. Hop and ride to an event downtown at 5 pm. Head back to your car without having to re-park.

6) Dropping off your dry cleaning, go to a photo lab, get your house key copied.

7) Going to the library during lunch to pick up a DVD to watch later that night.

8) Lunch at the Taft Museum out on their gorgeous terrace garden.

9) Working a half day and heading to a Reds businessman's special.

10) Go to the dentist. Get a haircut. Buy new shoes. Stop by the bank.

11) After work go to dinner at Niccola's in OTR and go to the Aranof with your wife.

12) Ride home.

[xeus]

What does everyone who loves the streetcar idea have against the Metro bus system? I occasionally take the #4 downtown and always find it reliable, safe, and cheap. It's not as hip or cool as a Portland streetcar, but it certainly gets the job done.

Even sirthought (who is obviously very close to the streetcar issue) states, "... 1000's of people will be close to the line. Have you seen how many businesses are downtown and Clifton? They all have customers coming into their store/office to do business with them. So somebody is doing business during work hours other than at their desk. You can now either walk or drive a car to get there. Another transportation alternative could help."

We have that transportation alternative. There are several bus lines running between these areas. Is it because it's too hard to learn the routes and stuff? Is it because people find buses unsavory and dirty? What is wrong with the bus system as a reliable, safe, affordable transportation alternative? Why do we need a trolley when we have public transportation covering the same proposed routes and more already in place?

[GuyFawkes38]

Streetcars have their own lane providing a much speedier journey (all the streetcars I've been on do). Also many have signs at stops providing info on wait times. It's a nice touch which could be implemented on bus routs but probably won't be.

Xeus does have an interesting question. Personally, I have no idea why most people avoid bus travel like the plague. But they do. Lets just accept that and a provide a transport system that people want to ride. That's the most democratic thing to do.

[waggy]

Jackasses are another alternative. And they're the symbol of the democratic party to boot.

Personally I like the proposal of unemployed prostitutes pulling rickshaws.

[Kahns Krazy]

I noticed we just opened a $42 million interchange on I-75. Where is the outrage over this expenditure? No private interests contributed a penny to this investment in infrastructure. It doesn't benefit me one bit. Should I petition for a charter amendment?

[Kahns Krazy]

Here is my travel itinerary on a weekly basis:

Walk to the 12 floor from my parking spot.
Maybe head to Floor 5 for a meeting
Maybe head to Floor 11 for a meeting
Maybe head to conference room on Floor 12 for a meeting
I'm hungry...I'm going to walk a block and eat some lunch
After that, I'm going to walk back to Floor 12 and check my email
Rather, rinse, repeat

Where else do I need to be?

And for those that think I'm crazy, I'm obviosuly not in the minority on this one as there isn't much anticipation that this thing will pass if it ever gets on a ballot. So, before you call my thought process stupid, you better recognize that if you aren't able to convince me, you aren't getting this thing passed.

I had no idea you were asian.

Ba-dum-bump.

[blobfan]

Streetcars have their own lane providing a much speedier journey (all the streetcars I've been on do). Also many have signs at stops providing info on wait times. It's a nice touch which could be implemented on bus routs but probably won't be.

Xeus does have an interesting question. Personally, I have no idea why most people avoid bus travel like the plague. But they do. Lets just accept that and a provide a transport system that people want to ride. That's the most democratic thing to do.

I get the impression Sirthought lives and or works on the proposed line. From my location, I'd still have to walk to the Reds or Bengals. The streetcar wouldn't help me get there faster. And somewhere I read the entire trip from downtown to Clifton is going to take 15 minutes via the streetcar. Why go all the way to Clifton to spend 20 minutes stuffing lunch down your throat so you can get back to your desk within the lunch hour. And the suits at my office ARE NOT going to head to client meetings on a streetcar. The only way to make the streetcar work will be to incentivise its use by subsidising the cost and removing the option to park at locations along the route.

Yes, the bus riders can be colorful. But they can also be friendly and helpful. The only think really keeping me from being a bus rider is the 1/2 uphill climb from my house to the nearest bus stop. I love public transportation. I think the streetcar will be an unused money pit.

[boozehound]

Streetcars have their own lane providing a much speedier journey (all the streetcars I've been on do). Also many have signs at stops providing info on wait times. It's a nice touch which could be implemented on bus routs but probably won't be.

Xeus does have an interesting question. Personally, I have no idea why most people avoid bus travel like the plague. But they do. Lets just accept that and a provide a transport system that people want to ride. That's the most democratic thing to do.

The reason that I avoid the bus has a lot to do with the wierdos that are on the bus.

[blobfan]

The reason that I avoid the bus has a lot to do with the wierdos that are on the bus.

Did you ever consider that you might be riding the wrong bus? Stay away from the yellow ones. And the short muli-colored ones with more smoke coming out the window than the tailpipe. And you should REALLY avoid the ones heading to Pittsburgh full of loud people wearing blue blankets with sleeves.

[X-band '01]

I noticed we just opened a $42 million interchange on I-75. Where is the outrage over this expenditure? No private interests contributed a penny to this investment in infrastructure. It doesn't benefit me one bit. Should I petition for a charter amendment?

I'd be more pissed about the money being spent on signs saying that "this project was made possible by the American Reinvestment and Recovery Act", even though the cost on those signs was far less. Like it was only possible that these projects were thought of and completed because of an economic s******* package.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Some facts on the proposed streetcar that may answer a lot of the questions going around:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRn_MQt28_g&feature=player_embedded

[Kahns Krazy]

The reason that I avoid the bus has a lot to do with the wierdos that are on the bus.

I call bull. Name the last 5 times you were on a Metro.

[Kahns Krazy]

Did you ever consider that you might be riding the wrong bus? Stay away from the yellow ones. And the short muli-colored ones with more smoke coming out the window than the tailpipe. And you should REALLY avoid the ones heading to Pittsburgh full of loud people wearing blue blankets with sleeves.

Ok, that bus was full of weirdos...

[sirthought]

Some facts on the proposed streetcar that may answer a lot of the questions going around:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRn_MQt28_g&feature=player_embedded

That was interesting. I mostly find it interesting in how much development dollars have been invested around streetcar lines in other cities. That could really help us here.

For those who wondered, I don't live along the line (now). No special investment in the streetcar, other than I want better public transportation. I'm a freelance consultant and many of my clients are central. I tend to walk a lot going to meetings and such. I lived for years in Mt Auburn and OTR. I go downtown several times a week and spend much of my social time there when I'm not watching hoops. I love downtown Cincinnati and want to see it improve.

While living in Mt Auburn I rode Metro everyday. I was just starting out and it saved money from having to park downtown daily. I didn't mind the ride overall, but the service ran too infrequently. If I missed the right bus in the morning I'd have to wait 30 minutes and be late for work or drive/park and waste my bus pass money. I also seemed to never catch the ride home on time and would need to wait again. My understanding is that the streetcar would run more frequently and that's something I find appealing.

There is also a different experience that these streetcars offer in how they are set up. You can watch the videos to see how they look and ride. Metro is great, but the streetcar line is different.

And I'd also be in support of better taxi service in this town. (You can't currently hail a cab unless you are at the airport or certain downtown locations.) Would love light rail/subways to all suburbs. But this is what is on the table and I want it to start soon!

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

That was interesting. I mostly find it interesting in how much development dollars have been invested around streetcar lines in other cities. That could really help us here.

For those who wondered, I don't live along the line (now). No special investment in the streetcar, other than I want better public transportation. I'm a freelance consultant and many of my clients are central. I tend to walk a lot going to meetings and such. I lived for years in Mt Auburn and OTR. I go downtown several times a week and spend much of my social time there when I'm not watching hoops. I love downtown Cincinnati and want to see it improve.

While living in Mt Auburn I rode Metro everyday. I was just starting out and it saved money from having to park downtown daily. I didn't mind the ride overall, but the service ran too infrequently. If I missed the right bus in the morning I'd have to wait 30 minutes and be late for work or drive/park and waste my bus pass money. I also seemed to never catch the ride home on time and would need to wait again. My understanding is that the streetcar would run more frequently and that's something I find appealing.

There is also a different experience that these streetcars offer in how they are set up. You can watch the videos to see how they look and ride. Metro is great, but the streetcar line is different.

And I'd also be in support of better taxi service in this town. (You can't currently hail a cab unless you are at the airport or certain downtown locations.) Would love light rail/subways to all suburbs. But this is what is on the table and I want it to start soon!

It all starts with voting NO on issue 9. How do COAST and Smitherman continue to get away with these lies?????

http://thephonyconey.blogspot.com/2009/10/another-day-more-lies-from-coast.html

[blobfan]

Some facts on the proposed streetcar that may answer a lot of the questions going around:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRn_MQt28_g&feature=player_embedded
Ummm, no. I won't watch a video that spends its first 30 seconds with a lie. Our population declined because the streetcar was shut down? When you lead with that line of BS, I won't listen to the rest of your argument. That type of MTV video full of crap presentation makes me think proponants are hiding A LOT!!! When your argument isn't working, dazzle them with cartoons and coincidental statistics. Yeah!!

...While living in Mt Auburn I rode Metro everyday. I was just starting out and it saved money from having to park downtown daily. I didn't mind the ride overall, but the service ran too infrequently. If I missed the right bus in the morning I'd have to wait 30 minutes and be late for work or drive/park and waste my bus pass money. I also seemed to never catch the ride home on time and would need to wait again. My understanding is that the streetcar would run more frequently and that's something I find appealing.

I have the same issue with the bus. The #4 Express doesn't even stop at the same locations as the in-town and it stops picking up downtown at 5:25. Guess what happens if I try to take the Express and I have to work late? I get to walk 1 mile from the nearest bus stop on a busy road without sidewalks to get to the parking lot and get in my car to go home. If I take the in-town to pick up the Express in the morning and leave my car in the driveway, I have the 1/2 our walk. I save 10 minutes in the morning versus taking the in-town straight in but I get home 15 minutes later in the evening than if I'd taken the in-town route because the Express and in-town connects aren't well-timed.

If child doesn't know how to use his lincoln logs, do you buy him an erector set and expect him to figure out how to make it work? If the city can't figure out how to run a usable bus system, why do we think they'll do any better with the streetcar? Because it's permanent? That just means it'll cost more to install and be a bigger problem to tear out when they screw that up too. My parents taught me to learn to use the toys I had before begging them for more.

So fix the existing bus system first before you create a new system you don't know how to run. The streetcar may run more often but if the buses don't run properly to either end, your only option is great big parking garages so people can drive in and park.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Ummm, no. I won't watch a video that spends its first 30 seconds with a lie. Our population declined because the streetcar was shut down? When you lead with that line of BS, I won't listen to the rest of your argument. That type of MTV video full of crap presentation makes me think proponants are hiding A LOT!!! When your argument isn't working, dazzle them with cartoons and coincidental statistics. Yeah!!

I have the same issue with the bus. The #4 Express doesn't even stop at the same locations as the in-town and it stops picking up downtown at 5:25. Guess what happens if I try to take the Express and I have to work late? I get to walk 1 mile from the nearest bus stop on a busy road without sidewalks to get to the parking lot and get in my car to go home. If I take the in-town to pick up the Express in the morning and leave my car in the driveway, I have the 1/2 our walk. I save 10 minutes in the morning versus taking the in-town straight in but I get home 15 minutes later in the evening than if I'd taken the in-town route because the Express and in-town connects aren't well-timed.

If child doesn't know how to use his lincoln logs, do you buy him an erector set and expect him to figure out how to make it work? If the city can't figure out how to run a usable bus system, why do we think they'll do any better with the streetcar? Because it's permanent? That just means it'll cost more to install and be a bigger problem to tear out when they screw that up too. My parents taught me to learn to use the toys I had before begging them for more.

So fix the existing bus system first before you create a new system you don't know how to run. The streetcar may run more often but if the buses don't run properly to either end, your only option is great big parking garages so people can drive in and park.

Blob, fast forward after the first 20 seconds then. The facts and figures are staggering.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCv0QDVS5Kg&feature=fvw

Cool documentary with old footage and pictures of the history of the streetcar in Cincinnati as well as modern developments around the US.

Interviews with Bortz as well as Gloyd from COAST

[Kahns Krazy]

I wonder how the sentiment on the streetcar would be different if gas had kept climbing to $6.00 a gallon instead of dropping back to $2.50.

I also think the Cincinnati Metro could use a PR program. My recollections of riding the bus from 10 years ago or more are nothing like the bus experience now.

The busses I have ridden in the last 3 years since I moved back from the suburbs have been clean, safe and well maintained. The busses, which I believe are all equipped with GPS systems, run on time. The transfer system is easier to use. I have not had any incidents of "weirdos" on the bus.

[Juice]

I I have not had any incidents of "weirdos" on the bus.

This is how I imagine the Metro.

Metro (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dp5skq8l_wg)

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

This is how I imagine the Metro.

Metro (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dp5skq8l_wg)

Not smart to attack a Chinese woman on a bus full of Chinese people in Chinatown....

I think the Chinese woman definitely won this "fight".

[GuyFawkes38]

This is how I imagine the Metro.

Metro (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dp5skq8l_wg)

It's one of those strange facts. Minorities from different minority groups hate each other.

[Juice]

It's one of those strange facts. Minorities from different minority groups hate each other.

Like the Blacks feelings towards Gays?

[GuyFawkes38]

Like the Blacks feelings towards Gays?

yes, and blacks vs latinos.

[sirthought]

Issue 9 foes warn of 'mobocracy' (http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20091016/NEWS01/910170361/Issue+9+foes+warn+of++mobocracy+)


If Issue 9 is approved, former state Sen. President Stanley Aronoff said, officials in Columbus and Washington, hoping to sidestep entanglement in local politics and potentially costly delays, may begin excluding Cincinnati from future major rail plans.

"This would almost make an island of Cincinnati, where everything goes around Cincinnati," Aronoff said.

Former state Sen. President Richard Finan and Rep. Denise Driehaus joined Aronoff in criticizing not just the merits of Issue 9, but also streetcar opponents' decision to place on the ballot a question they argued would be better left in the hands of elected officials.

"I'm absolutely opposed to putting everything to a referendum," Finan said. "These things should be decided by the legislatures, the city councils."

[Lamont Sanford]

The wife and I saw an "unusual" homemade political sign posted in the grass on the on-ramp to 71 South off Ridge Rd. on Saturday afternoon...it read "Chris Smitherman sucks balls".

Short. Sweet. To the point.

[Juice]

The wife and I saw an "unusual" homemade political sign posted in the grass on the on-ramp to 71 South off Ridge Rd. on Saturday afternoon...it read "Chris Smitherman sucks balls".

Short. Sweet. To the point.

That 200th post in this thread really brought it full circle. Kudos to the sign maker.

[sirthought]

The wife and I saw an "unusual" homemade political sign posted in the grass on the on-ramp to 71 South off Ridge Rd. on Saturday afternoon...it read "Chris Smitherman sucks balls".

Short. Sweet. To the point.

That is funny! Smitherman seems to be losing stock by the minute,

[sirthought]

City of Cincinnati Streetcar Proposal Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnazP-9va-E)

Vote No on Issue 9

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

City of Cincinnati Streetcar Proposal Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnazP-9va-E)

Vote No on Issue 9

Great find Sir!

[American X]

Cincinnati streetcar gets mention toward the end of this:

Progressives Are Racist (http://www.newgeography.com/content/001110-the-white-city)

"This may explain why most of the smaller cities of the Midwest and South have not proven amenable to replicating the policies of Portland. Most Midwest advocates of, for example, rail transit, have tried to simply transplant the Portland solution to their city without thinking about the local context in terms of system goals and design, and how to sell it. Civic leaders in city after city duly make their pilgrimage to Denver or Portland to check out shiny new transit systems, but the resulting videos of smiling yuppies and happy hipsters are not likely to impress anyone over at the local NAACP or in the barrios.

We are seeing this script played out in Cincinnati presently, where an odd coalition of African Americans and anti-tax Republicans has formed to try to stop a streetcar system. Streetcar advocates imported Portland's solution and arguments to Cincinnati without thinking hard enough to make the case for how it would benefit the whole community."

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Some groups/people endorsing a "Vote no" on issue 9:

1) Former President of the Ohio State Senate Stanley Aronoff
2) Former President of the Ohio State Senate Richard Finan
3) Representative Denise Driehaus
4) Bill Cunningham - Radio Personality
5) Mike McConnell - Radio Personality
6) Cincinnatians for Progress
7) Hamilton County Regional Planning Commission
8) City Council Woman and former Cincinnati Mayor Roxanne Qualls
9) The League of Women Voters of the Cincinnati Area
10) St Louis Urban Workshop
11) UC Student Government
12) The Cincinnati Zoo
13) Cincinnati AFL-CIO Labor Council
14) Councilman Chris Bortz
15) Cincinnati Charter Committee
16) Hamilton County Democrats
17) Councilman Jeff Berding
18) The Cincinnati Regional Chamber of Commerce
19) The Cincinnatus Association
20) Councilman Kevin Flynn
21) Councilman Cecil Thomas
22) Mayor Mark Mallory
23) Councilman David Crowley
24) Councilman Greg Harris
25) Councilwoman Leslie Ghiz
26) Hamilton County Commissioner David Pepper
27) Hamilton County Commissioner Todd Portune
28) Former Mayor Arn Bortz
29) Former Mayor Bobbie Sterne
30) Former Vice Mayor Jim Tarbell
31) State senator Eric Kearney
32) Cincinnati Business Courier
33) Cincy PAC
34) Hispanic Chamber of Commerce
35) Mayor's YPKC
36) Over-The-Rhine Chamber of Commerce
37) US Green Building Council - Cincy Chapter
38) Downtown Resident Council
39) Queen City Bike
40) Pendleton Neighborhood Council
41) Cincinnati Planning Commission
42) Cincinnati Enquirer Editorial Board
43) Cincinnati Democratic Party
44) The Sierra Club
45) Agenda 360
46) Southwest Ohio Regional Transit Authority


Groups/People Endorsing a vote "YES" for Issue 9 are:

1) COAST
2) NAACP
3) Cincinnati Tea Party
4) Former Congressman and Mayor Tom Luken
5) Mark Miller and Wedemandavote
6) Councilman Charlie Winburn
7) Councilman Lemarque Ward
8) Southwest Ohio Green Party
9) Councilwoman Laketa Cole
10) Councilman Chris Monzel

I know i'm missing some so feel free to let me know what I'm missing.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Cincinnati streetcar gets mention toward the end of this:

Progressives Are Racist (http://www.newgeography.com/content/001110-the-white-city)

"This may explain why most of the smaller cities of the Midwest and South have not proven amenable to replicating the policies of Portland. Most Midwest advocates of, for example, rail transit, have tried to simply transplant the Portland solution to their city without thinking about the local context in terms of system goals and design, and how to sell it. Civic leaders in city after city duly make their pilgrimage to Denver or Portland to check out shiny new transit systems, but the resulting videos of smiling yuppies and happy hipsters are not likely to impress anyone over at the local NAACP or in the barrios.

We are seeing this script played out in Cincinnati presently, where an odd coalition of African Americans and anti-tax Republicans has formed to try to stop a streetcar system. Streetcar advocates imported Portland's solution and arguments to Cincinnati without thinking hard enough to make the case for how it would benefit the whole community."

I don't understand this either. So a black mayor endorses a racist agenda? And the Hispanic Chamber of Commerce? And the co-chair of Cincinnatians for Progress Rob Richardson (a black man)?

[DART87]

My biggest problem with a no vote on issue 9 is that it will be misrepresented as a mandate for the streecar.

I am not conviced a streetcar system is appropriate for Cincinnati at the proposed costs. But I wouldn't want the passing of issue 9 to hinder the introduction of statewide high speed rail into Cincinnati.

But misrepresentation is our current form of government is it not? Which is why items like Issue 9 make it on the ballot.

[xeus]

My biggest problem with a no vote on issue 9 is that it will be misrepresented as a mandate for the streecar.

I am not conviced a streetcar system is appropriate for Cincinnati at the proposed costs. But I wouldn't want the passing of issue 9 to hinder the introduction of statewide high speed rail into Cincinnati.


If statewide high speed rail into Cincinnati is a good idea, I'm sure our citizens will support it.

I think the argument from streetcar supporters that a yes vote on Issue 9 will preclude other forms of rail, whether it be statewide high speed or county wide light rail, undermines the viability of the arguments in favor of those other forms of rail. I like the idea of high speed rail to CBus, Cleveland, etc. I'd vote for it. But I won't vote for a streetcar.

I'm voting Yes on Issue 9. I'm not afraid of letting the people vote on issues.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

If statewide high speed rail into Cincinnati is a good idea, I'm sure our citizens will support it.



I'm voting Yes on Issue 9. I'm not afraid of letting the people vote on issues.

I am. While it sounds nice to expect more out of voters, it's naive to expect most of them to have the time, energy, resources and experience to thorougly examine the details and ramifications of each issue that is proposed on the ballot. Many voters vote strictly down party lines. I am very afraid of letting voters take crucial decisions out of the hands of the people elected to make them - and who generally are better informed/educated about major policy issues and their ramifications, than the public. We elect them to take care of it for us because we trust we've elected the right person for the job. If not, we vote them out next election. In the end,if this passes, it comes down to special interests and who markets their side better.

This would make us literally the only large city in the US to have a public vote on any form of passenger rail.

They sound good in theory, but referendums and ballot initiatives are never fully thought out and only offer a "take it or leave it" proposition. That's not realistic and it always makes for bad law. They are expensive, hard to undue, and time consuming. California should be a prime example of why they don't work

For Issue 9, lets say the its passes. All the stimulus and federal funds available for infrastructure and job creation projects (passenger rail, etc) are immediately at risk. Any public vote will delay these projects and make the city ineligible for literally millions of dollars in federal funding. We will get skipped over in favor of other cities. This issue states that it would apply to all types of funding - Federal, state, and private. So if a wealthy person wants to give the city a lot of dough for passenger rail, we'd wait several months or spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to conduct an election to vote on whether or not to accept the donation. This whole initiative is poorly poorly worded.

It's an anti-passenger rail initiative, not just streetcar, and it is terribly written. That's why groups and people from all sides of the political spectrum are against it.

[Strange Brew]

Sorry but Federal Stimulus money doesn't actually exist. It is being borrowed and will bite us in the butt in the future. If this is such a good idea, let private enterprise fund it an charge fee to ride the train.

Sorry, but I'm tired of people thinking that "gov't money will pay for it". The problem is that the gov't doesn't generate money, it distributes the money it takes from taxes. Governments do not produce anything.

[sirthought]

If statewide high speed rail into Cincinnati is a good idea, I'm sure our citizens will support it.

I think the argument from streetcar supporters that a yes vote on Issue 9 will preclude other forms of rail, whether it be statewide high speed or county wide light rail, undermines the viability of the arguments in favor of those other forms of rail. I like the idea of high speed rail to CBus, Cleveland, etc. I'd vote for it. But I won't vote for a streetcar.

I'm voting Yes on Issue 9. I'm not afraid of letting the people vote on issues.

Why won't you vote for a streetcar... the money? Any dollar spent on it will be more than doubled in investment in the city through development and tax revenue. The evidence for this is just too strong to refute that.

If you are worried about the money spent, then voting no on 9 is a must. Any item brought up for vote will end up costing taxpayers hundreds of thousands. Every campaign cost money to get it up and running, along with all the communication it takes to educate voters on what is what in the vote. This is a stupid thing to spend money on and will stifle progress of any kind for the future of transportation. There are always going to be some voters who are against some variation of a plan.

The main reason why we bother to have a representative government that works with a professional administration who are trained and focus on their jobs everyday is avoid having the general public needs to fight over every detail for the public. This is the exact same mess that has crippled California. Please don't let this happen to Cincinnati!

[Kahns Krazy]

If statewide high speed rail into Cincinnati is a good idea, I'm sure our citizens will support it.

I think the argument from streetcar supporters that a yes vote on Issue 9 will preclude other forms of rail, whether it be statewide high speed or county wide light rail, undermines the viability of the arguments in favor of those other forms of rail. I like the idea of high speed rail to CBus, Cleveland, etc. I'd vote for it. But I won't vote for a streetcar.

I'm voting Yes on Issue 9. I'm not afraid of letting the people vote on issues.

What if the mere fact that it requires a vote prevents Cincinnati from being included in the plan? What if they decide that because it would require a vote, extra time and expense, and uncertianty, that the high speed rail will be more efficient if it run from Indianapolis to Columbus to Cleveland? You might not even get a vote.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Why won't you vote for a streetcar... the money? Any dollar spent on it will be more than doubled in investment in the city through development and tax revenue. The evidence for this is just too strong to refute that.

If you are worried about the money spent, then voting no on 9 is a must. Any item brought up for vote will end up costing taxpayers hundreds of thousands. Every campaign cost money to get it up and running, along with all the communication it takes to educate voters on what is what in the vote. This is a stupid thing to spend money on and will stifle progress of any kind for the future of transportation. There are always going to be some voters who are against some variation of a plan.

The main reason why we bother to have a representative government that works with a professional administration who are trained and focus on their jobs everyday is avoid having the general public needs to fight over every detail for the public. This is the exact same mess that has crippled California. Please don't let this happen to Cincinnati!

Interview from Cunningham with Stan Aronoff about the ridiculousness of Issue 9:

http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/CINCINNATI-OH/WLW-AM/091016_3_willie.mp3?CPROG=PCAST&MARKET=CINCINNATI-OH&NG_FORMAT=newstalk&SITE_ID=1209&STATION_ID=WLW-AM&PCAST_AUTHOR=700WLW&PCAST_CAT=Talk_Radio&PCAST_TITLE=Bill_Cunningham_On_Demand

[Kahns Krazy]

Sorry but Federal Stimulus money doesn't actually exist. It is being borrowed and will bite us in the butt in the future. If this is such a good idea, let private enterprise fund it an charge fee to ride the train.

Sorry, but I'm tired of people thinking that "gov't money will pay for it". The problem is that the gov't doesn't generate money, it distributes the money it takes from taxes. Governments do not produce anything.

This is true, but they are spending it somewhere. It will bite us in the ass worse if it's spent somewhere else with zero return to the people of Cincinnati than it will if it's spent here, with at least some return. Some of it is my money, why wouldn't I be in favor of spending it here?

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Oh wow...

COAST, specifically Mark Miller, just called Chris Smitherman a "Great American" during a Bill Cunningham interview.

Cunningham: "Smitherman is a clown".
Miller: "He's a Great American".

http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/CINCINNATI-OH/WLW-AM/091020_1_willie.mp3?CPROG=PCAST&MARKET=CINCINNATI-OH&NG_FORMAT=newstalk&SITE_ID=1209&STATION_ID=WLW-AM&PCAST_AUTHOR=700WLW&PCAST_CAT=Talk_Radio&PCAST_TITLE=Bill_Cunningham_On_Demand

[blobfan]

What if the mere fact that it requires a vote prevents Cincinnati from being included in the plan? What if they decide that because it would require a vote, extra time and expense, and uncertianty, that the high speed rail will be more efficient if it run from Indianapolis to Columbus to Cleveland? You might not even get a vote.
And that's the best reason to vote this issue down. While I don't support the current plan (there's more correlation than causation in the estimated financial returns from such an endeavor), it doesn't make sense to short-sightedly hamstring the city by forcing a vote on administrative issues. You might as well just fire the entire government and replace them with a web site so we can all vote on every city decision. It'll be like American Idol except instead of people, it'll be the most popular projects that get greenlit.

Oh wow...

COAST, specifically Mark Miller, just called Chris Smitherman a "Great American" during a Bill Cunningham interview.

Cunningham: "Smitherman is a clown".
Miller: "He's a Great American".

http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/CINCINNATI-OH/WLW-AM/091020_1_willie.mp3?CPROG=PCAST&MARKET=CINCINNATI-OH&NG_FORMAT=newstalk&SITE_ID=1209&STATION_ID=WLW-AM&PCAST_AUTHOR=700WLW&PCAST_CAT=Talk_Radio&PCAST_TITLE=Bill_Cunningham_On_Demand

I just through up a little in my mouth.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

And that's the best reason to vote this issue down. While I don't support the current plan (there's more correlation than causation in the estimated financial returns from such an endeavor), it doesn't make sense to short-sightedly hamstring the city by forcing a vote on administrative issues. You might as well just fire the entire government and replace them with a web site so we can all vote on every city decision. It'll be like American Idol except instead of people, it'll be the most popular projects that get greenlit.


I just through up a little in my mouth.

The actual quote from Mark Miller is:

"Chris Smitherman is a fine American".

I apologize.

Cunningham says mid interview that he would vote no on issue 9 if he lived in the city. Does anyone know of any polls conducted on the topic? I haven't found any

[blobfan]

The actual quote from Mark Miller is:

"Chris Smitherman is a fine American".

...

I'm still nauseated.

[GuyFawkes38]

It's encouraging that WLW is turning the corner on this matter.

Alluding to Cunningham's thought, it would be hilarious if the federal government is forced to put a station in Norwood instead of downtown.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

It's encouraging that WLW is turning the corner on this matter.

Alluding to Cunningham's thought, it would be hilarious if the federal government is forced to put a station in Norwood instead of downtown.

I apologize for what you are about to see Blob






http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_g9Dol3VBYD0/SgLqfjR67dI/AAAAAAAABCU/NP18Wz3WkoQ/s400/sillysnakeonthemic3.jpg

[Snipe]

Cincinnati streetcar gets mention toward the end of this:

Progressives Are Racist (http://www.newgeography.com/content/001110-the-white-city)



Interesting line of thought from that article:

"Among the media, academia and within planning circles, there’s a generally standing answer to the question of what cities are the best, the most progressive and best role models for small and mid-sized cities. The standard list includes Portland, Seattle, Austin, Minneapolis, and Denver. In particular, Portland is held up as a paradigm, with its urban growth boundary, extensive transit system, excellent cycling culture, and a pro-density policy. These cities are frequently contrasted with those of the Rust Belt and South, which are found wanting, often even by locals, as “cool” urban places.

But look closely at these exemplars and a curious fact emerges. If you take away the dominant Tier One cities like New York, Chicago and Los Angeles you will find that the “progressive” cities aren’t red or blue, but another color entirely: white.

In fact, not one of these “progressive” cities even reaches the national average for African American percentage population in its core county. Perhaps not progressiveness but whiteness is the defining characteristic of the group. "

http://www.newgeography.com/files/whitecity1.png

I would also argue from previous reading on the issue that it isn't just the size of the African American segment, but the economic and educational makeup as well. African-Americans in Seattle, Portland, Denver and the like tend to be middle-class and corporate Americans. They aren't living in the black part of town. There isn't a black part of town. They live and work on the same plane as everyone else.

Is this as the article contends the ultimate in "White Flight"?

"This raises troubling questions about these cities. Why is it that progressivism in smaller metros is so often associated with low numbers of African Americans? Can you have a progressive city properly so-called with only a disproportionate handful of African Americans in it? In addition, why has no one called these cities on it?

As the college educated flock to these progressive El Dorados, many factors are cited as reasons: transit systems, density, bike lanes, walkable communities, robust art and cultural scenes. But another way to look at it is simply as White Flight writ large. Why move to the suburbs of your stodgy Midwest city to escape African Americans and get criticized for it when you can move to Portland and actually be praised as progressive, urban and hip?"

I think it is interesting to look at the demographics. When people want to be like Denver or Portland they have to remember that Denver and Portland don't have Over The Rhine to contend with. The blacks that they do have are relatively well educated, employed and responsible citizens. OTR is not a hotbed of educated, employed and responsible citizens.

We have a hell of a lot more in common with Detroit than we do with Portland and Seattle. We need to learn from the mistakes of that cesspool of humanity instead of trying to emulate progressive Portland.

[sirthought]

Unbelievable. So the blacks in those cities are really black? The whites live there because they don't want to be around blacks? And ideas like making public transportation work for creating development and investment in your city make you the man pushing things in the wrong direction?

What a bunch of BS. Having family in Denver I can attest that there is a higher volume of minorities in Denver than in Cincinnati. But what color they are has nothing to do with it.

[boozehound]

Unbelievable. So the blacks in those cities are really black? The whites live there because they don't want to be around blacks? And ideas like making public transportation work for creating development and investment in your city make you the man pushing things in the wrong direction?

What a bunch of BS. Having family in Denver I can attest that there is a higher volume of minorities in Denver than in Cincinnati. But what color they are has nothing to do with it.

The graph that snipe posted suggests otherwise. I don't know his source, but the availability of census and demographic statistics should make it easy to prove what the black population is in Denver compared to Cincinnati. I'm too lazy to look it up though.

[sirthought]

Minorities aren't just black. The overall argument was that progressives are racist, which would include all minorities and assume that progressives are mostly white, although it also suggested that black progressives are racist too. It's a diversionary move.

In any case, Issue 9 would still cause headaches we don't need in Cincinnati.
We don't want to have to have taxpayers paying for elections for each initiative that comes our way. And, as was pointed out in the Stan Aranoff interview, it's simply bad for business.
VOTE NO ON 9

[Snipe]

http://www.newgeography.com/files/whitecity1.png



Those stats are county wide. For stats for people living in the actual city of Cincinnati, the percentage of the black population is actually 43% (http://www.socialareasofcincinnati.org/report/Chapter2.html).

Also, compare Cincinnati, Portland & Denver in terms of single parent households:

Cincinnati: 29.15% (http://www.townme.com/cincinnati-oh/city-data)
Portland: 16.28% (http://www.townme.com/portland-or/city-data)
Denver: 17.68% (http://www.townme.com/denver-co/city-data)

An interesting fact is that in all three cities the black population leads the way in the percentage of single parent families. That is a trend that started in the 1960s. Why do you think that is that way? Would just about every city lay out like that if I looked them all up? I bet it would. What happened to the black family?

For SirThought, given the links above Denver is 77% white. Portland is 80% white. Cincinnati is 53% white.

The statistics say that all minorities do not behave the in the same fashion. For example, if you look at the Cincinnati statistics, Asians have the least amount of single parent households.


Among Hispanics, Puerto Ricans have the highest percentage of babies born to unwed mothers, while Cubans have the lowest. The largest Latino group, Mexicans, is about average.

Northeast Asians have the lowest illegitimacy rate among Americans, with both Chinese and Japanese being under ten percent in 2000, the latest year for which data on Asians are available.

Arthur Hu, who maintains one of the largest Web pages of statistical profiles of Asian Americans notes that the low rates of Asian single births may be one of the most important "secrets" to the so-called myth of the model minority.

"These figures also correlated with higher rates of marriage and living as extended families, low rates of divorce, births delayed until after careers are established, low rates of infant mortality, and low rates of drug, alcohol or tobacco use while pregnant, even among the poor," Hu said.

[GuyFawkes38]

The article might lead some to say, "wow, African Americans cause cities to become disfunctional". But I don't think that's right.

Austin, Seattle, Minneapolis, etc..., are all expensive places. Those places attract people after college looking for jobs (I have 4 friends from X who graduated and moved to the above listed cities).

The cost of living is expensive. The job market isn't great even for those who are college educated because of their reputations for being awesome and attracting college educated people without jobs.

African Americans tend to both have lower educational atttainment and less cash making it difficult to move to such "progressive" cities.

It is interesting. Who knows exactly why Smitherman opposes rail in Cincy. Is he afraid that Cincy would grow a little more like Portland and the cost of living will increase. ugghhh.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

The article might lead some to say, "wow, African Americans cause cities to become disfunctional". But I don't think that's right.

Austin, Seattle, Minneapolis, etc..., are all expensive places. Those places attract people after college looking for jobs (I have 4 friends from X who graduated and moved to the above listed cities).

The cost of living is expensive. The job market isn't great even for those who are college educated because of their reputations for being awesome and attracting college educated people without jobs.

African Americans tend to both have lower educational atttainment and less cash making it difficult to move to such "progressive" cities.

It is interesting. Who knows exactly why Smitherman opposes rail in Cincy. Is he afraid that Cincy would grow a little more like Portland and the cost of living will increase. ugghhh.


http://thephonyconey.blogspot.com/2009/05/its-blue-ash-airport-mcfly.html

http://naacpcincinnati.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=180&Itemid=1

Apparently Smitherman was expecting 11 million dollars from the sale of the Blue Ash Airport to go to his Glencoe Condo Project. Instead it went to the streetcar fund. Publicly, he picked a fight that the mayor and the city were anti-african american business friendly. Privately, he wanted a lot of dough. In otherwords, he's just being Chris Smitherman


"Smitherman never cared one way or the other about the streetcar, or how much the entire streetcar project will cost -- all he knows is that the $11 million from the Blue Ash Airport sale ain't coming his way. He knows the airport money is the only part of the funding plan that could possibly be allocated to Van der Haer's project (and/or other projects), then kicked back to him either literally or as political capital. The rest of the money will come from TIF funding, the city's capital improvements budget, tens of millions of corporate donations, and possibly federal stimulus funds. Smitherman's pathetic January letter to President Barack Obama, in which he among other things attacked the streetcar project, was nothing but an attempt to appear a head above Mayor Mark Mallory, and line his own pockets."

"The Blue Ash money hasn't been spent yet, so Smitherman knows a piece of the $11 million could still be his if the streetcar proposal is derailed. So he made a deal with COAST to fight the streetcar project if they drop their proposed lawsuit regarding a $300,000 city-funded grant to repair Glencoe's 120 year-old roof, which was critically damaged during the September 2008 windstorm. Then, perhaps, COAST eventually gets a kickback from the Blue Ash Airport money."

[GuyFawkes38]

Ha, JimmyTwoTimes37, I guess I had too much respect for Smitherman in thinking that he was actually concerned that his constituents might have to relocate due to higher rents.

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Ha, JimmyTwoTimes37, I guess I had too much respect for Smitherman in thinking that he was actually concerned that his constituents might have to relocate due to higher rents.

With Smitherman, expect the unexpected. He's an egomaniac. After listening to COAST's representative Mark Miller call Smitherman a "Fine American" on Cunningham's show, they have lost all credibility as well. All of this reeks as a power play and money grab. Combine that with all the inconsistencies and downright lies about this issue from COAST and the NAACP on the issues (severely inflating costs, facts, doomsday scenarios, impossibilities, etc), my vote no on issue 9 signs getting stolen and replaced with numerous vote "YES" on issue 9 signs (which ironically doesn't have a picture of a streetcar but a rubber tire trolley) , and Smitherman/Finney's unwillingness to debate the issue at UC or in a public forum against the opposition. If issue 9 had just stated something about being against the streetcar and the streetcar only, it probably would have a lot more support (As evidenced by all the collected signatures - falsely collected by advertising their cause as "Anti-Streetcar" only). But Finney, seeing the potential money he could make as a lawyer with this issue, worded it vaguely on purpose to include all forms of rail. If this issue passes, it's a lawyers dream come true.

Smitherman's initiative with waterworks is partly because he says if waterworks is privatized, they will taint the water in black communities with syphilis.

He's also got a mayor recall initiative in the works (Currently getting the signatures).

3 ballot initiatives in one year from one man.

For him, its not about taxpayers or the black community. It's about ego, revenge, and money.

[Snipe]

The article might lead some to say, "wow, African Americans cause cities to become disfunctional". But I don't think that's right..

You posit that some people may come to the conclusion that a large contingent of African Americans (black people) "cause cities to become disfunctional" You argued that you don't think that was correct.

Reading through what you wrote, do you think you effectively made your case?


The article might lead some to say, "wow, African Americans cause cities to become disfunctional". But I don't think that's right.

Austin, Seattle, Minneapolis, etc..., are all expensive places. Those places attract people after college looking for jobs (I have 4 friends from X who graduated and moved to the above listed cities).

The cost of living is expensive. The job market isn't great even for those who are college educated because of their reputations for being awesome and attracting college educated people without jobs.

African Americans tend to both have lower educational atttainment and less cash making it difficult to move to such "progressive" cities.



You seemed to cite a legitimate reason why black people aren't well represented in these enclaves. And I think it is true. It is expensive to live there and a lot of black people don't have the money.

But how would that fact disprove this:

"The article might lead some to say, "wow, African Americans cause cities to become disfunctional". But I don't think that's right"

It seems like you started out to make an argument, and you failed to make the argument.

These cities are considered successful paragons of social planning. These cities also happen to have a low number of African Americans (black people). Your argument is that black people can't afford to live in those cities. So where does that take us? To have a successfull city you need to design it so that uneducated black people can't afford to live there?

Think about America's self labeled most Progressive City, San Francisco. Look at the property values and the housing costs there. What is the median price of a home there? Probably more than half a million. A few years ago during the heydey it was probably around 700-800k or even more. You think those "progressives" have any problem with the "colored folk" in their neighborhood? If you paid $750,000 for your house and all of your neighbors did too, I bet you wouldn't have much of a problem with any of the "locals". And as for the black people that do live in your neighborhood, they just bought a $750,000 house. Those aren't the same black people that are living in Over The Rhine. Those are black people that just bought a $750,000 house.

Same thing with the cocoon that surrounds Central Park or the Upper West Side of Manhatten. Everyone that lives there is rich beyond belief to common folk. It doesn't matter what color you are.

So what do we make of Indian Hill? It is just the same thing in a different context. The poor people that do the service jobs in San Fransico exist, they just don't live in the popular urban area where homes go for $750k. They have to live outside the city. We have some white flight where people leave the city behind. Do they have "Black Flight" where the minorities are forced to live outside the city because of housing prices? Is there a real difference in the practice?

And what about Mason, Ohio as compared to Portland? Those people left the city and moved the companies to where they live. They don't need the city outside of Bengals games. What is the difference if you move to Mason or move to Portland? To some it seems that if you move to Portland you can still be praised as a "progressive".

It is interesting stuff. I don't think you made much of an argument.

[wny08]

Snipe,

The white flight argument recently raised by the New Geography does not hold water for several key reasons:

You cite percentages of black residents to back your argument. I think you are ignoring a key piece of history. In a massive migration seeking manufacturing jobs in northern cities (partially due to the collapse of the sharecropping system and partially due to the availability of industrial jobs post-WWII), many millions of southern blacks flocked to Midwest and Northeastern cities from smaller towns. That fact is the main reason why an Indy, Cleveland, Cinti, Buffalo, Detroit, Chicago, etc. today has a larger black population that an Austin or a Portland or a Denver - places that have become boomtowns much more recently, for different reasons, and have attracted different immigrant groups such as Latinos.

Secondly, the New Urbanist type of young, single YP that you are trying to get a handle on is seeking livable cities and neighborhoods with walkability and transit. Race seldom has anything to do with it. Speaking generally, this segment of the population actually seeks out places like OTR, Northside, East Walnut Hills rather than avoiding them. Do you know many of us progressive recent college grads? You may not agree with our political views (and of course I don't speak for everyone) but it's over-the-top ridiculous and insulting to label the gentrification of some urban neighborhoods by young progressives as something motivated by a racist desire to form white enclaves.

NOTE: I am not necessarily defending gentrification. Gentrification, though it is a natural result of people with money suddenly willing to move back into cities, does tend to displace people due to rising rents and this is an unfortunate result. But to call it racism? Please.

I enjoy a lot of the writing done by the New Geography writers, but sometimes they write a piece that really leaves me scratching my head. Then someone on a message board decides to take an already thin argument and extend it to an over-the-top rant about progressives. My crowd did not cause our present black-white segregation in cities, and we are not looking to exacerbate it. I'm waiting for your apology.

[PM Thor]

Please throw Mayor Mallory into the "not smart" category for taking credit for the Crossroads campaign of handing out "I love Cincinnati" bumperstickers. Oh and put the Enquirer in there too for saying that as a city we are better off than we were back in '05.....totally disregarding a $50 million city deficit.

I HATE dayton.

[xeus]

Snipe,

...

I'm waiting for your apology.

This will be good.

[GuyFawkes38]

First of all, I think WNY08 is defending gentrification. And that's fine.

And yeah, I'm sure a lot of wealthy people choose to live in San Francisco instead of suburbia because they like being part of a high density neighborhood.

Is there anything wrong with that? Generally speaking, European cities like to organize themselves in such a manner (poorer neighborhoods in the suburbs....Paris is a great example).

Getting into the race aspect of this situation gets messy. If OTR thrives due to streetcars (I think it's a possibility), will some African Americans be displaced due to high rents? Probably. But does that mean progressive ideas for cities are anti-African American.....I don't think so. It just means that there's a demand for that type of neighborhood and African Americans tend to have less wealth.

Maybe I'm being naive.

[wny08]

First of all, I think WNY08 is defending gentrification. And that's fine.

And yeah, I'm sure a lot of wealthy people choose to live in San Francisco instead of suburbia because they like being part of a high density neighborhood.

Is there anything wrong with that? Generally speaking, European cities like to organize themselves in such a manner (poorer neighborhoods in the suburbs....Paris is a great example).

Getting into the race aspect of this situation gets messy. If OTR thrives due to streetcars (I think it's a possibility), will some African Americans be displaced due to high rents? Probably. But does that mean progressive ideas for cities are anti-African American.....I don't think so. It just means that there's a demand for that type of neighborhood.

Gentrification isn't exactly something I would defend or reject. It just is what it is. An area gets a much-needed shot in the arm, but people are displaced as an unintended consequence. All in all, it's probably a good thing for cities but with the qualifications stated.

Also, forgot to mention re: Snipe's argument:

If we are going to be honest about it, then yes, there are more differences than similarities between a place like Mason and a more pedestrian-oriented place, whether that's Portland or OTR or anything in between. A McMansion in the exurbs is part of an unsustainable system of sprawl of which we all are forced to bear the myriad social, environmental, and infrastructure costs. Midwestern exurbs like Mason are literally some of the most segregated (by income and, effectively, race) places on the planet. The gated subdivisions, the lack of variety in housing (almost entirely huge SF houses designed for a specific income demographic), and the necessity of each adult owning a car for every trip ensures that certain types of people are the only ones you ever see there.

So, yes, there are a great many moral and ethical reasons why many people would never move to a place like Mason, not to mention cultural reasons that are already self evident.

I'm not saying someone is necessarily racist or backwards or a bad person for living in Mason, in fact usually that is not the case. But if you choose to live there you have to be willing to acknowledge being part of an environmentally and socially destructive pattern of development. My crowd -- generalizing here -- wants not only a richer lifestyle but also a clean conscience. Or at least as clean as it can be given that Americans - just about all of us - consume far too many of the planet's resources.

[Juice]

I'm not saying someone is necessarily racist or backwards or a bad person for living in Mason, in fact usually that is not the case. But if you choose to live there you have to be willing to acknowledge being part of an environmentally and socially destructive pattern of development. My crowd -- generalizing here -- wants not only a richer lifestyle but also a clean conscience. Or at least as clean as it can be given that Americans - just about all of us - consume far too many of the planet's resources.

I live in Anderson which is a suburb obviously much like Mason. Anderson has tons of protected green space. So while we may be "destroying" the planet with our commutes, we at least do some positives for the environment.

I never thought I would see the day when someone would have to defend living in the suburbs.

[Strange Brew]

Gentrification isn't exactly something I would defend or reject. It just is what it is. An area gets a much-needed shot in the arm, but people are displaced as an unintended consequence. All in all, it's probably a good thing for cities but with the qualifications stated.

Also, forgot to mention re: Snipe's argument:

If we are going to be honest about it, then yes, there are more differences than similarities between a place like Mason and a more pedestrian-oriented place, whether that's Portland or OTR or anything in between. A McMansion in the exurbs is part of an unsustainable system of sprawl of which we all are forced to bear the myriad social, environmental, and infrastructure costs. Midwestern exurbs like Mason are literally some of the most segregated (by income and, effectively, race) places on the planet. The gated subdivisions, the lack of variety in housing (almost entirely huge SF houses designed for a specific income demographic), and the necessity of each adult owning a car for every trip ensures that certain types of people are the only ones you ever see there.

So, yes, there are a great many moral and ethical reasons why many people would never move to a place like Mason, not to mention cultural reasons that are already self evident.

I'm not saying someone is necessarily racist or backwards or a bad person for living in Mason, in fact usually that is not the case. But if you choose to live there you have to be willing to acknowledge being part of an environmentally and socially destructive pattern of development. My crowd -- generalizing here -- wants not only a richer lifestyle but also a clean conscience. Or at least as clean as it can be given that Americans - just about all of us - consume far too many of the planet's resources.


Environmentally and socially destructive pattern of development?????? Please go on.... You, my friend are the reason why people reject Progressives (aka communists, if you don't understand the roots of your ideology, that is not my fault). The environment, seriously, not bad. Socially destructive???? Wow, evidence please. You are a uppity twit and needs to grow up. By the way, I live in E. Walnut Hills and enjoy it. I happen to work for a large company in Mason. I see both sides. Both are fine. The streetcar, to get back on topic, will not spur development in OTR or Downtown for that matter. It will not bring the wealthy suburbanites that you hate into the City. It will only cycle the problems from downtown's Northern side to Clifton and the river.

[wny08]

I live in Anderson which is a suburb obviously much like Mason. Anderson has tons of protected green space. So while we may be "destroying" the planet with our commutes, we at least do some positives for the environment.

I never thought I would see the day when someone would have to defend living in the suburbs.

My issue is not so much the commute - although that's part of it - it's the forest and farmland that are destroyed in favor of extremely low-density development. What that also produces is excess roads that we have to pay to maintain (we pay in terms of where the money is not spent) and excess pavement which produces lots of toxic runoff.

Anyway though, I don't particularly want to pick fights with individuals about where they live. There are people who have good reasons for living in places that I personally prefer to avoid. Sometimes it's school choice or square footage to raise a large family. Other times it's purely a lifestyle choice, and I understand where people are coming from.

[wny08]

Environmentally and socially destructive pattern of development?????? Please go on.... You, my friend are the reason why people reject Progressives (aka communists, if you don't understand the roots of your ideology, that is not my fault). The environment, seriously, not bad. Socially destructive???? Wow, evidence please. You are a uppity twit and needs to grow up. By the way, I live in E. Walnut Hills and enjoy it. I happen to work for a large company in Mason. I see both sides. Both are fine. The streetcar, to get back on topic, will not spur development in OTR or Downtown for that matter. It will not bring the wealthy suburbanites that you hate into the City. It will only cycle the problems from downtown's Northern side to Clifton and the river.

1. I am neither a communist nor a socialist. And believe me, though I have many liberal/progressive friends, I'm not sure I can think of any that advocate the government taking over the means of production. But I do know plenty, including myself, that advocate the government getting more involved in areas such as industrial regulation, financial regulation, and health care, as I suspect you do not. But that's a legitimate difference of opinion among people who nevertheless all believe in American democracy and freedoms.

2. Socially and environmentally destructive? Yes. Socially because Masons are, as I stated, some of the least diverse places on the planet and siphon wealth away from places that need more people and investment. Environmentally because, heck where do I even begin? I didn't realize it wasn't obvious. See my post above this one, I guess.

3. Say what you want about the streetcar, as the jury is still out on it, but Issue 9 is an extremely dangerous proposition for the city and the entire region. It's a potential cyanide pill for us. When abused, ballot initiatives are, as the center-right Economist so eloquently put it, the "crack cocaine of democracy."

[GuyFawkes38]

1. I am neither a communist nor a socialist. And believe me, though I have many liberal/progressive friends, I'm not sure I can think of any that advocate the government taking over the means of production. But I do know plenty, including myself, that advocate the government getting more involved in areas such as industrial regulation, financial regulation, and health care, as I suspect you do not. But that's a legitimate difference of opinion among people who nevertheless all believe in American democracy and freedoms.

2. Socially and environmentally destructive? Yes. Socially because Masons are, as I stated, some of the least diverse places on the planet and siphon wealth away from places that need more people and investment. Environmentally because, heck where do I even begin? I didn't realize it wasn't obvious. See my post above this one, I guess.

3. Say what you want about the streetcar, as the jury is still out on it, but Issue 9 is an extremely dangerous proposition for the city and the entire region. It's a potential cyanide pill for us. When abused, ballot initiatives are, as the center-right Economist so eloquently put it, the "crack cocaine of democracy."

As someone who strongly supports progressive causes in urban environments, point number 2, on the "Masons", seems off putting and strange.

ugghhh, not a great way to frame a discussion. It's not a good debate maneuver to sound so self righteous.

Edit: And Mason does have a growing percentage of Indians, Chinese, and S. Koreans....I have friends who are some of them.

[Kahns Krazy]

The Masons, and particularly the Shriners, do great things.

http://maser-media.org/WordPress/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/shriners-cars.jpg

[wny08]

The Masons, and particularly the Shriners, do great things.

http://maser-media.org/WordPress/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/shriners-cars.jpg

Haha. Well played sir.

I'm realizing that I'm coming across to some as self-righteous, which I guess I can understand when I've gone back and read a few of my posts. This started off as me defending progressives for the variety of reasons that they choose to live in dense, walkable communities, but it got a little off track.

I don't apologize for commenting that exurbs are generally less sustainable and less economically diverse than traditional neighborhoods, because it is the truth and frankly is a settled matter. That said, I am not coming on here to demonize anyone in particular who may live in an exurb.

We all have our faults and ways in which we don't practice what we preach, and I don't want to be "that guy" acting like his **** doesn't stink, so I guess mea culpa for almost starting a brouhaha. Sheesh.

[waggy]

I still think Snipe owes everyone an apology.

[xeus]

The Masons, and particularly the Shriners, do great things.

http://maser-media.org/WordPress/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/shriners-cars.jpg

KK is on to something here. We don't need streetcars. We need Shriner cars - compact, fuel efficient, and fun. These things make the Prius look like a Chevy Suburban. We'd only need a fraction of those acres of parking lots the streetcar advocates reference in their propaganda.

Yes on Issue 9er! Shriner cars are finer!

[Strange Brew]

Haha. Well played sir.

I'm realizing that I'm coming across to some as self-righteous, which I guess I can understand when I've gone back and read a few of my posts. This started off as me defending progressives for the variety of reasons that they choose to live in dense, walkable communities, but it got a little off track.

I don't apologize for commenting that exurbs are generally less sustainable and less economically diverse than traditional neighborhoods, because it is the truth and frankly is a settled matter. That said, I am not coming on here to demonize anyone in particular who may live in an exurb.

We all have our faults and ways in which we don't practice what we preach, and I don't want to be "that guy" acting like his **** doesn't stink, so I guess mea culpa for almost starting a brouhaha. Sheesh.

wny08, sorry for the blowup earlier. You seem like someone who has a different perspective than I and maybe we could have a "beer summit" about it. Anyhoo, now that we all feel good about ourselves, I'd agree that Issue 9, as I understand it, is a bad idea however the streetcar proposal is equally intellectually bankrupt. At least I can agree half way with a Progressive. :)

[JimmyTwoTimes37]

Issue 9 has brought WN and Strange together

http://blog.prospect.org/blog/weblog/bush%20mccain%20hug.jpg


http://tdh46.typepad.com/mondosapore/images/2007/10/28/fuck_you_john_kerry_you_ineffectual.jpg

[Strange Brew]

Issue 9 has brought WN and Strange together

http://blog.prospect.org/blog/weblog/bush%20mccain%20hug.jpg


http://tdh46.typepad.com/mondosapore/images/2007/10/28/fuck_you_john_kerry_you_ineffectual.jpg

Haha, love it. Issue 9 is a bad idea on which most people can agree. Now THAT is bi-partisanship!

Issue 9 is great for streetcar haters (myself included) but it opens the door to too many other potential problems. Put it on the ballot (not sweeping change to right of way laws) like the casinos and let's have at it.

[BENWAR]

wny08, sorry for the blowup earlier. You seem like someone who has a different perspective than I and maybe we could have a "beer summit" about it. Anyhoo, now that we all feel good about ourselves, I'd agree that Issue 9, as I understand it, is a bad idea however the streetcar proposal is equally intellectually bankrupt. At least I can agree half way with a Progressive. :)

As Marty would say........Ain't love grand!!!!